The Deans dilemma and Cooper conundrum
Roar Guru By Uncle Argyle, 11 Dec 2012 Uncle Argyle is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- ARU, Ewen McKenzie, Quade Cooper, robbie deans, Rugby Union
190 Have your say
Quade Cooper of Australia looks on during a Wallabies match(AFP PHOTO / Michael Bradley)
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During the 2011 Rugby World Cup in New Zealand Robbie Deans and Quade Cooper found themselves sitting at the window of a coffee shop across from their hotel in Wellington having a ‘chat’.
While not privy to that conversation I would suggest it would have been about rugby, tactics and perhaps growing up in New Zealand.
Nearly fifteen months since those flat whites it would be hard to picture two such polarising figures in Australian rugby catching up for a brew any time soon.
Yet each might actually be the key to the other’s locks in 2013 which is looming to be a definitive year for Australian rugby.
Both Deans and Cooper have ardent supporters and detractors in the Australian rugby community. Despite his recent signing with the ARU, to many Quade Cooper is still a problem that seems too difficult to solve.
To his supporters it is only a matter of time before Cooper replicates his Super Rugby form in the international game. Many suggest the dull conservative Deans game plan is not congruent with the natural talent of the Queensland pivot.
To his detractors Cooper is nothing short of an overrated brat that does not deserve to wear the famous ‘yellow’ jersey.
One thing’s for sure: Cooper loves to play for Ewen McKenzie and the Queensland Reds and this could be a problem for the future of Robbie Deans.
There is little doubt Robbie Deans wants to take the Wallabies to the Rugby World Cup in 2015, yet to ensure his passport is stamped in the ‘Old Dart’ Deans first must convince the ARU he can actually bring back ‘Bill.’
Deans, like a second term government, is starting to get stale with some pundits. They have already begun bickering over his successor.
There is work to be done for the much maligned Cantabrian if he is to be successful in being re-appointed Wallaby coach, with the first step being a series victory over the British and Irish Lions.
Ewen McKenzie certainly would be one of those considered to replace Deans if the position became vacant.
The advantage McKenzie has is that he can extract the best from Quade Cooper. Queensland is a powerhouse in Australian rugby and that mantle has much to do with both McKenzie’s and Cooper’s ability to work together.
Conversely Robbie Deans has never been able to extract the best from Quade Cooper yet, and at some stage he is going to need to embrace Cooper back into the Wallaby fold as he is now an ARU contracted player.
The dilemma for Deans is that he will need to beat the Lions for his coaching career with the Wallabies to progress. Presently it appears Deans does not have the game plan nor the playmaker to achieve that goal.
The brand of rugby the Wallabies played in 2012 was at best willing, at worst woeful; hardly the type of rugby that will defeat the Lions who will bring a power and pace game.
To achieve victory, Deans will need a game breaker in the number 10 jumper which he currently does not have.
Neither Barnes nor Beale have cemented their claim. Each has shortcomings with their kicking games and run too laterally when setting up a back line. Furthermore Barnes has trouble finishing a game and Beale is far from solid in defence.
The potential answer is James O’Connor or an untested Christian Lealiifano, yet while fit there will always be the Quade Cooper option.
The Cooper option is the dilemma. Given the Deans-Cooper relationship it would be difficult to suggest Cooper will be Deans’ first choice, yet as pig-headed as Deans can be, he is no fool.
Deans must recognise that the Beale and Barnes show at fly half and full back is not potent enough. The unsatisfactory choice for Deans might be to actually select Cooper and work with Cooper on developing a game plan to defeat the Lions.
This in itself would be a significant shift in the Deans culture.
If Deans fails and never selects Cooper, the Reds fare well in Super rugby and the Wallabies fail against the Lions Deans can kiss his World Cup dreams goodbye. Olive branch anyone?
The fact is Australian Rugby does have a history of coaches and play makers not seeing eye-to-eye but still getting the job done.
Think of the Alan Jones and Mark Ella relationship. Ella – Australia’s premier fly half retired at the age of 25 citing Jones as one of the reasons. Ella has never been condemned for this, nor has Jones, as each had achieved some wonderful success together.
Deans and Cooper don’t have the Jones/Ella equity with the Wallaby supporters as they have failed to bring sustained success. Cooper and Deans are not in the same class as Ella and Jones as players or as coaches yet each could learn from that history and work together for mutual benefit.
If Deans and Cooper could actually learn to collaborate with each other they might actually achieve their goals and the success Australian rugby starves for. Yet Cooper will have to check his ego and Deans his pig-headedness. Anyone know a good coffee shop?
- Explore:
- ARU, Ewen McKenzie, Quade Cooper, robbie deans, Rugby Union
December 11th 2012 @ 4:16am
biltongbek said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:16am | Report comment
Well I think the first requirement here is that Cooper perform for the Reds, if he doesn’t, well then most of the expectation will be blunted immediately.
The fact is both individuals will be closely scrutinised for different reasons, Quade because most want him to succeed, Deans, necause most seem to want him to fail.
I think it is going to be difficult to be an Australian supporter next year, the Lions are coming and many supporters will be in two minds, they would want to win against the British and Irish Lions, but that would mean Deans would go into the Rugby Championship as the coach.
I personally think Denas will see out his contract until the end of next year, as far as the relationship between the two of them, and how they will manage to agree on a gameplan is anyone’s guess.
Certain,y Cooper will have to show the Australian rugby public he is worth that 800 000 Australian Dollars.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:12am
Allanthus said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Thanks Uncle, reasoned and thought provoking as always.
Biltongbek, I think you have it right, this is all about how Cooper performs in Super Rugby. Deans isn’t stupid, he might not like or respect QC but if he performs on the park for the Reds then he will pick himself for the Lions series and Deans will work with that.
Part of Deans’ problem is that they are all such different types of players (QC, Beale, Barnes) so he isn’t able to stamp a style or a game plan first, rather he is at the whim of whichever of them he plays, and the style (such as it is) is determined from there. Which seems all back to front to me.
Contrast with NZ, if Carter doesn’t play their game plan or style doesn’t alter at all because Cruden is such a similar player, and now Barret is being groomed in the same manner. It’s much easier for a coach if players fit the system and the culture rather than individually determine it – which invariably leads to pulling in different directions.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:46am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:46am | Report comment
RE biltongbek
(a) You don’t know that $800,000 is the figure.
(b) Only $400,000 of that would be from the ARU.
(c) Deans has yet to show he is worth his $1M salary so I don’t see why Cooper has to prove it first.
RE Allanthus
Cruden is not similar to Carter at all, if anything Cruden plays more similarly to Cooper than Carter. Furthermore the assertion that Deans has been unable to “stamp a style” on the Wallabies because he is “at the whim” of who he selects at pivot is entirely fallacious.
1 – Deans picks the team so he has the choice.
2 – Deans has had 5 years and still hasn’t developed any style. And so many people are keen to point out Deans first selected Cooper (and Beale and JOC) for the Wallabies so all their international exposure has been in the systems and practices that Deans has in place. There is no coherent style because Deans doesn’t have one.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:52am
biltongbek said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:52am | Report comment
“Cooper was given every thing he wanted, including a boxing match in early February, and about $800,000 from the ARU and Reds.”
…………………
Extracted from Spiro’s article “quuuuuuaaaaaaddddeeee’s back.
Dean’s “performances” has been well criticised. In this case Cooper’s performance in the Super XV next year is vital to show his worth at international level.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:57am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Yet Deans is still there.
There is also the media release from the ARU stating emphatically that they do not release or discuss the amount of top-ups. So we don’t know. People just assume because it suits them too. Like the fabrication over the $1 more than Matt Giteau (also straight out of Spiro’s “article” – and yes those quotation marks are intended to convery sarcasm and contempt).
December 11th 2012 @ 8:01am
biltongbek said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:01am | Report comment
Well whatever the amount, the point I made remains.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:07am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
That Cooper has to perform at Super Rugby level? That should be true of every single player that is selected for the Wallaby squad against the Lions. If Beale or McCabe or Dennis or Mitchell or Horne or Robinson is having a crap season I’d prefer they not get picked at all … good luck convincing Deans of that.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:11am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
RK thats the thing. take Horne. he had a horrible start to the season last year. but in the games leading up to the first test match he was playing some outstanding rugby.
too many who had not watched these games had already written him off. form can dip but it can also come back.
you pick your best balanced side and that includes good players that might play for a bad performing side but again it might mean cutting a player loose; think giteau or mortlock.
it is not simple it is complicated. Your simplicity is your weakness as a blogger.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:22am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
I have never ever ever seen Horne play anything that could be called outstanding rugby. And yes, I watched every Waratah match that wasn’t in SA last year, and ever Wallaby test.
December 11th 2012 @ 6:03pm
Mantis said | December 11th 2012 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
I have to agree with Red Kev here, I think Horne is overrated. McCabe SHOULD be our best option at outside center, i don’t know why he hasn’t been given a good crack there yet.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:25pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
Careful, Mantis. Saying anything positive about McCabe around Red Kev is just asking for trouble.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:06pm
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:06pm | Report comment
I guess you missed my “the Wallabies don’t have the depth myth” article for the backs where I state that McCabe has a genuine chance to be our answer to Conrad Smith (a poor man’s version but better than nothing). Others posted in response that he’d be better on the wing. He’s utterly useless at 12 though.
December 14th 2012 @ 10:57pm
Nowared said | December 14th 2012 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
you can extract what you like from Spiro – he is one of the most negative journos in sport – I am sure he makes it up as he goes
December 11th 2012 @ 9:09am
linz22 said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
I cant believe Deans is even being mentioned these days in the same sentence as the 2015 WC. How poorly do the wallabies have to play before he gets the boot? why aren’t more people angry that it now appears he is going to get a go at the lions? what has he done to deserve that chance? the wallabies keep escaping from games by the skin of their teeth after having played terrible rugby, and yet the ARU persist with Robbie. i am honestly starting to wonder if people watch the games or just look at the results.
How many times do i have to hear Robbie say “the boys will learn from this”, how much longer do we have to accept 2nd or 3rd as acceptable?
And please don’t start telling me about grass roots being the issue or the injury crisis, every team has injuries and other coaches in aus are getting a lot more out of the same cattle.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:37am
kos1nsk1 said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Couldn’t have said it better. The mere suggestion Deans could be Wallabies coach beyond 2013 has me hoping the world ends later this month.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:37am
Go_the_Wannabe's said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
You would think that this groundswell of opinion would eventually tip Deans out……but can the ARU afford to pay Deans out and hire a new coach? I doubt it with the money spent of Cooper and Folau.
Looks like we’re stuck with Deans until his contract runs out.
December 11th 2012 @ 12:09pm
PeterK said | December 11th 2012 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
Agree. The ARU was foolish to resign Deans for 2 years BEFORE the RWC and NOT have exit clauses on meeting KPI’s.
They cannot afford to pay him out IMO.
That would be independent of players salaries. Players salaries are a fixed percentage of revenue I believe so any top up they pay for next year is already budgeted.
December 11th 2012 @ 12:10pm
kos1nsk1 said | December 11th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
The ARU will lose a lot more by not paying him out in lost supporters and revenue.
The alternative is supporters setting up a “See Ya Later Robbie and Don’t Let The Door Hit You On The Way Out” fund and doing it ourselves. Could cost a bit – the guy sticks like baby poo.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:18pm
Chivas said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:18pm | Report comment
You might know your baby pooh but do you know all the decisions behind everything else or are you surmising like the original post.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:25pm
Malo said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
2nd or 3rd is not that bad if it was good rugby we were watching. We dont have to be No1 to enjoy supporting the wallabies, its the style and character that fans want.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:09pm
GWS said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
Exactly. I don’t care if we’re tenth. As long as we’re fearless
December 11th 2012 @ 9:16am
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Good morning mate,
Always interested in your thoughts however I will have to disagree on a point you raise. If Cooper is selected by Deans, Deans will work with that. In the past it appears when Deans has selected Cooper, Cooper has had to play the Deans style as all the 10′s have had to. I would like to see Robbie look for alternative attack points apart from the 10 alone. We have a good 8 in Cliff Palu and do not work the short side off first phase enough, mainly the scrum. With the Wallaby 6 ball a lottery it is a touch limited. Phipps has little to no running game either. I think we have been far too simplistic and predictable in our attack. I would suggest Deans land his players look to collaborate and take ownership of a game plan as opposed to being chess pieces at Deans command.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:09am
Chivas said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
I agree, but you need a reliable and controlled platform. I thought at times the forwards created that not consistently but occasionally, but they couldn’t capitalise.
That is one problem, confidence between the forwards and backs. The other is passing, Phipps is a solid player, but is severely cutting down the space and time for those outside him.
He has some good aspects and a few things to work on, but Genia hopefully will provide a little bit more so that the Wallabies can get their flow on.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:25am
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Mate I didn’t know you were a Auckland Marist boy….my deepest sympathies
Seriously – I think we have been too easy to read in attack and I am 100% with you and the role of the half back. To paraphrase John Hipwell – the half back is the linchpin and it just does not work unless the half back does his job well.
I would think some basic back row moves we not be out of place – Do you recall Israel Dagg’s try against Australia when he looped Smith and Gear. Wonderful 1st phase attacking rugby – we were beaten by deception not power. Also the Wallaby line-out struggles with its 6 ball at times which makes our lineout in attack a little lame. The All Blacks have used that 6 ball well – Tony Woodcock through the middle chaps off a 6 ball. Basic but it works more often than not.
The secret to beating any 10 is limiting his space. The All Blacks have mastered the art. Dan Carter did not look so crash hot against the Pom’s when he was rushed either. I suggest out 10 problems need to be addressed also in the 1-8 area. We simply need to protect our ground better along with our 9 and 10.
Quade is not a 10 who wants the ball in hands all the time. I think the Deans attack has been too 10 focussed and we need to get the opposition in two minds.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:48am
Chivas said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Yes for a stint… People have no idea the nasty stuff that used to go on. I mean I hated how they stopped rucking. But there are some nasty stomps, full force, to the head… The niggle and the punches… Well that’s life. My mate walks into the showers and he has two rows of rake marks down his back… His response… You know what these are…. Badges of honour
good days.
I agree about different points of attack. I would like to see some more creativity too. But take the Beale double around… I think it’s a nice move, but last time I saw him do it he ran his bum off and when he had drawn the defence there was no-one running at the hole… They were standing around watching… I’m sure RK would say it’s Robbie Dean’s fault
.. But I also think JOC added a bit more intelligence to the backline.
So trusting you are getting phase ball and always taking a chance, calling a move and executing it accurately is always important. I just wonder if they are down in confidence, for a variety of factors, team disruptions on and off the field. I think they are tight but just not a tight knit unit. People complain about Robbie having his favourites. He’s actually trying to build a backline that is tight knit… from there the magic can happen, players can interchange and create confusion for opposition defences… Whatever, but players need to know the person inside them and outside them well and it takes more than a couple of games.
I think having JOC and Genia back will make a difference, not just because if their individual skills, but they fit into the make-up.
As for McCabe I’m not sure,,, he looked promising, like he could be an Aaron Major, but once he has his body through he is not getting the ball away well enough, but that said he still adds a defensiveness I like and he runs hard straight lines which someone needs to if you are going to have hares like JOC and Beale. So I really think if the Wallabies remain injury free we will see a much better product.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:56am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
QUOTE:
I agree about different points of attack. I would like to see some more creativity too. But take the Beale double around… I think it’s a nice move, but last time I saw him do it he ran his bum off and when he had drawn the defence there was no-one running at the hole… They were standing around watching… I’m sure RK would say it’s Robbie Dean’s fault .. But I also think JOC added a bit more intelligence to the backline.
Deans is the attack coach of the Wallabies.
It is also worth noting that Cooper got castigated (and according to the press by the coaches in the dressing room) for attempting to put the backline into holes, and throwing the ball to gaps where players should have been but weren’t.
December 11th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Chivas – good post – and good response Red Kev.
Chivas – Yes I too enjoyed dispensing the combine harvester approach to those that saw fit to lay on ‘my’ ball. I too enjoyed the return of serve. That was rugby.
So how are Marist fairing these days?
December 11th 2012 @ 4:07pm
Chivas said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Not sure how they doing, haven’t been home for 10 years and the only people I have met here are Ponies players. I’m assuming they both remain strong as they have good feeder schools. Funny thing is Pakuranga (pack of wkers) to some have the largest feeder system and they float between first and second division I remember when Fitzy got his ear bitten in SA and there was no hue and cry about it because we all thought he had probably deserved it.
I remember when he was playing for Unit he had a habit of swinging a fist into the opposites face just before packing down. A great player, excellent captain but a dirty player.. but never heard anyone comment on it.
And poor old Richie gets what for… I’m sure Richie could care less, but it’s funny how the game has changed. I remember when Carozza got his nose busted after scoring I thought good job… teach him for scoring… I think that is politically incorrect
.
Sliding to a different point, when Beale started playing I was always worried about him and JOC. Fortunately they haven’t played so much together, but they have the potential to be a dangerous combination. Add Cooper into the mix it could be something special. Others like Ioane, Taps, AAC, Mitchell, McCabe are good hard straight runners and solid defenders.
Also having JOC and Beale at the Rebels will benefit when it comes to the Lions. I don’t mind lateral movement or double arounds but it depends how flat you are playing. The AB’s have moved to a flat backline, which the Wallabies used to kill us with.
And RK I’m not sure who has heavily criticised Coopers passing. That is a facet of his game I don’t have an issue with. His kicking could be a little more consistent and he needs to improve his defence a bit.
He should also be covered by the loosies and I think there is still an issue at 6. There seems to be no stiffness to the blindside. I actually think Higgers goes ok some days. His headbutt wasn’t the smartest move and he deserved the smack, but he’s normally pretty good, at least good enough not to get caught.
December 11th 2012 @ 6:05pm
Mantis said | December 11th 2012 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
Phipps won’t be playing too much for the Wallabies anymore, Nic White is easily our second best scrumhalf
December 11th 2012 @ 7:24am
El Gamba said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:24am | Report comment
Good morning Biltong, in regards the worth of Quade, I’d suggest he has already delivered value for money to the ARU. There has not been as much interest in rugby in a long time.
Everyone has an opinion on Quade.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:31am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:31am | Report comment
oh cmon he has done very little and i know this wallaby fan and anyone i know has not watched the game because of cooper. We are watching despite cooper! he is neither the calibre of player nor the calibre of person that should be wearing the wallaby no 10.
If he can have a personality transplant i’d like to see him play 15 not 10 for the Wallabies, if he must play.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:39am
El Gamba said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Love him or hate him, and I’m guessing you’re a hater Mark, he has the rugby community daring to hope. Well some of the rugby community!
December 11th 2012 @ 7:45am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
he’s not the messiah he is a very naughty boy!
December 11th 2012 @ 12:12pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Markey Mark,
I enjoy your posts generally but I think you off course on a few comments you have exposed us to today.
RK thats the thing. take Horne. he had a horrible start to the season last year. but in the games leading up to the first test match he was playing some outstanding rugby.
I would agree that Horne played some OK rugby for NSW this year. When he did play against Wales in Sydney he nearly dropped the ball over the line. Furthermore a reserve grade centre could have scored that try – it was set up by those inside him. Your quick to cut down Quade Cooper as a test player – but Rob Horne has never really cut the mustard either.
oh cmon he has done very little and i know this wallaby fan and anyone i know has not watched the game because of cooper. We are watching despite cooper! he is neither the calibre of player nor the calibre of person that should be wearing the wallaby no 10.If he can have a personality transplant i’d like to see him play 15 not 10 for the Wallabies, if he must play.
Mate come to Brisbane – there are 32,000 who have paid membership to watch the Red’s play – do you think we would have those numbers if Dallan Murphy was our 10?
If Cooper can come good at test level than great. It just isn’t going to happen though. Barnes who is the inferior player at super xv level is the superior no 10 at test level.
Quade Cooper has nearly a 70% test match winning record. Berrick Barnes has a 68% test match winning record. Cooper has scored 6 international tries against Italy, England, New Zealand, Fiji and Ireland. Barnes has scored 8 international tries against Ireland, Wales, New Zealand, Japan and Russia. In Bledisloe Cups Cooper has a 40% winning record, Barnes 18% – In RWC Cooper has a 71.42% winning record Barnes 72%.
2012
Aust v Arg Cooper made 5 tackles and missed 1 Barnes 2 missed 0.
Aust v SA Cooper made 3 tackles and missed 0 Barnes made 9 and missed 0
Aust v NZ Cooper made 10 tackles and missed 0 Barnes made 6 and missed 3
I think you should cut Quade some slack mate. He has said and done some really stupid stuff but you assertion that Quade is not as good as Berrick at test level doesn’t really stack with me.
December 11th 2012 @ 12:44pm
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Oi, go easy on Dallan UA, he;s a good kid and might get there one day!!!
December 11th 2012 @ 12:49pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
I agree – Dallan Murphy plays a good game for Brothers and did his best for Qld – my point was with respect to the Nudgee Old Boy – he can’t pack Suncorp like Quade can.
December 11th 2012 @ 1:41pm
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
I was only being cheeky UA, I agree with you. Plus Dallan’s a ranga, so he’s right up against it!!
December 11th 2012 @ 4:40pm
stillmatic1 said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
a decent amount of those 32000 memberships are not for actual games, uncle. forever red memberships are a big driver of the reds membership base.
further to this, if everyone (or most) reds fans go to the games because of quade, why were these memberships counted as something worthwhile before he had even resigned for next season?
December 11th 2012 @ 4:52pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Can you quantify ‘decent’?
This is an excert form an article in the Courier Mail September 2013 – Ttitled Queensland Reds eclipse Brisbane Broncos as Queensland’s No.1 crowd pullers for first time – In a measure of just how high the Reds have soared since they limped along unloved in 2009, the state’s surging Super Rugby team has won the code battle on the crowd front by finishing 2012 averaging 34,217 fans per game at Suncorp Stadium. So all those people are walk ups? Do you go to the Red’s? I do and can say most matches are filled with the reserve member seats.
Quade signed for Qld much earlier in the year. The stats indicate Qld win 50% of the time when Quade does not play an 87% of the time he does. Whilst its the team we support – why was Quade the face of the 2012 membership ticket? Perhaps because the fans like to see his face or becuase they like to see Qld win which Quade often is a major contributor to.
December 13th 2012 @ 2:47am
stillmatic1 said | December 13th 2012 @ 2:47am | Report comment
without looking at the books, i couldnt give an exact amount. but when their 2012 membership numbers were 30000, but average crowds were only 34000, something is out of whack. a fair indication of seated members would be something like 22000-26000 and even then i would be sceptical.
so if we are to believe that there were only 4000 walk ups per match last year (which is not many at all), i think my point remains. unlce, you do know how many kiwis are here dont you?
i have been to about 13 games over the last 3 years at suncorp and dont know how you can guess who are sitting in reserve seats and who are not. i am a forever red member also, as i like the freedom aswell as priority tickets to the test matches.
re: quade, in september of this year (well after quade had signed with the reds), the reds had just under 7000 members on the books. now have 32000. which of these figures are attributable to quade, or news of quade’s return? would his carryings on somehow have been beneficial over the next 3 months (sept-nov)? he still hadnt signed with the ARU, so for all intents and purposes wasnt going to play in 2013. so on what basis were people joining the reds (since it is clear that it wasnt solely for quade)?
as you say, people join, for the team, a team that plays well, gives its all, has a bit of gumption and wins. please dont discount this because of one man, nor ascribe undue credit either.
will not disagree that he does further enhance the gameplan that the team tries to play with.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:36am
biltongbek said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Morning El Gamba, the only thing he has generated thus far is controversy, the performance part will be the delivery.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:40am
El Gamba said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Very true. ROI comes in many ways (just ask GWS about Folau) and I hope he delivers through performance.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:20am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
they any publicity is good publicity. But this point is debatable. How long is the effect of negative publicity? does it ruin the reputation of the concerned parties in the long run too?
We saw with the rebels that cipriani’s behaviour resulted in the rebels getting lots of coverage in the herald sun and age, something they would not have dreamed of in the normal course of business. But since the cipriani conterversy died out the coverage has reverted back to normal.
December 11th 2012 @ 4:39pm
AndyS said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
I suppose the question then being whether that publicity translates into bums on seats and sales of merchandise…
December 11th 2012 @ 7:51pm
biltongbek said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
Not convinced it has. From what I have read over the past few months from the Aussie supporters are that they want to see entertaining rugby, so it will have to be entertaining stuff that draws more bums on seats.
I don’t think Quade Cooper has won fans over with this debacle, I would dare to suggest he has got some convincing to do over the next season.
December 11th 2012 @ 4:23am
ANON69 said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:23am | Report comment
“Presently it appears Deans does not have the game plan nor the playmaker to achieve that goal.” , He never had a game plan for foru years.
December 11th 2012 @ 5:12am
Billy Bob said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:12am | Report comment
Uncle, good question that you pose.
But the reference to Ella and Jones is arguably a very loose analogy.
There is a difference between a coach that is ‘stubborn’ and one that is an tyrant.
But your point about Deans is valid. Can he change as well as Cooper?
December 11th 2012 @ 5:21am
Johnno said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:21am | Report comment
Was Jones like a Tyrant, or stubborn. It’s funny Alan Jones got on well with Micheal Lynagh, who he described as beautiful boy he said that when interviewing him this year on his radio show i listened to the interview. But there was always talk of a rift between Nick Farr-Jones and Alan Jones. Farr Jones legend has it would do the team talk ,convincing jones a captain needs to 2minutes to talk to his team, alone. If true very funny. But apparently it was done so the players could chuck Alan Jones game plan out the window and follow there own. But Alan Jones is admired in rugby circles , all the fans on internet forums or many say he is good, and many still say he should of got picked ahead of Deans, in 2007. And some are still saying he should comeback and coach the wallabies vs the Lions or to the next world cup, amazing I know but still. One has to remember Alan Jones came very close in 2007 to getting the job back, he was 2nd after Deans you know.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:14am
B-Rock said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:14am | Report comment
Jones was never seriously considered to return, reminds me of Warnie at the moment – both were more of an ego boost for a yesterdays hero than a serious retun
December 11th 2012 @ 7:26am
El Gamba said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:26am | Report comment
Warne coaching the wallabies. Now there’s an idea!
December 11th 2012 @ 8:35am
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
BB – which one stubborn and which one the tyrant? (I’d suggest Jones was equal parts both by the end)
December 11th 2012 @ 10:52am
Mango Jack said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
There is just no way Jones would cut it as an international coach nowadays. He had prime cattle, including arguably our finest No 10 ever. He brought discipline, and in the amateur era, that was enough. Every international coach today would be streets ahead of him tactically, and his petulant, bullying tactics would be disastrous.
December 11th 2012 @ 5:49am
mania said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:49am | Report comment
doesnt matter what deans does, qc is making the wb’s. cooper has gotten what he wanted. a guaranteed wb’s spot regardless of whether he’s in form or not. with all the money cooper is being paid the ARU will give orders to deans that qc has to play to justify his contract.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:48am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:48am | Report comment
Simply not true. The coach is the selector. Now if you had said Deans doesn’t have the guts to not select Cooper you’d be right.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:23am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
why do u get so defensive when people make assumptions about QC’s personality/attitude but have no issue doing the same to deans? how do you know whether or not there is pressure from above (ie nucifora) to select certain players with big ARU top-ups?
December 11th 2012 @ 9:33am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
I don’t know that there isn’t pressure, what I DO KNOW is that if Deans is the pillar of integrity and virtue that everyone keeps lauding him as he would ignore the pressure and do what he wants (which 100% objectively speaking from analysing the Wallabies’ direction under Deans is not wide expansive attacking running rugby) or quit.
He is still there and he was still selecting Cooper despite wanting to play defensively … draw your own conclusion, I have drawn mine.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:38am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
would you quit a highly lucrative job because upper management was a bit of a joke?
December 11th 2012 @ 9:40am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Which makes Deans more mercenary than Cooper and SBW.
However let’s be clear – we’re not talking about upper management being a bit poor – we’re talking about your superiors forcing you to perform your job in a way that you feel is not in the best interests of the team you work with day in and day out.
My response would depend on how strongly I felt about what they were telling me I had to do.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:46am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
so now Deans is more mercenary then Cooper or SBW.
mate next thing you’ll say is Deans was the second gunman on the grassy knoll.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:49am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
cant blame a bloke for looking after his financial well-being (that goes for all three).
I guess you’d have to weigh up how much your getting paid and the length of the contract vs the cost to your reputation. Without knowing how much deans gets or what the backroom dealings are Im not prepared to make judgement on his “guts” or “integrity”.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:19am
nickoldschool said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Jutsie, I think many of us face this kind of dilemma at some stage in our life. Would answer yes to your question by a bit of a joke you mean someone I do not respect or is asking me to do things I don’t believe are right.
Tbh, I think it’s one of the main question a human being has to ask himself during his life, I.e always be able to look at yourself in the mirror everyday, talk to your kids, wife, gf, mates etc. and just be able to be yourself. Would choose that over money any day (well have chosen that). But I guess what the difference between the lucrative pay and the other one is. In the cae of professional
Coaches, players etc, they have different options and their consciousness should guide their decisions rather than the dollar aspect only. I want to believe that sbw, QC and a few others actually enjoy their life and choices to way they are running it and it’s not only money that dictate their choices or who they work with.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:21am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
You’re the one who brought up back room dealings and pressure from above not me.
If Deans wants to pick Cooper and play defensive rugby without letting QC have input into the structure and stifling his attack with McCabe – that is terrible coaching.
If Deans wants Cooper and wants to play attacking rugby then picks McCabe – that’s terrible selecting.
If Deans doesn’t want Cooper but still picks him because of ARU factors – that’s gutless.
@mark – yes mercenary – doing it for the money. You think a former All Black is coaching out of love of the Wallabies?
December 11th 2012 @ 10:53am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:53am | Report comment
RK i bought up the backroom dealings to suggest you shouldn’t make such harsh judgements without knowing the whole picture. I dont have an issue with you questioning his selections or his coaching ability but its a bit harsh to call him gutless when we dont know the whole picture.
NOS thats a solid answer, personally i would turn down a lucrative position if i was being forced to do something unethical or against my moral values but if it were just some nit-picky differences or clash of egos i’d put my pride to the side and collect the fat pay check, its a means to an end after all
But i dont see many hypothetical situations in rugby where you would be faced with a huge ethical or moral dilemma, large enough to outweigh the money your being paid……actually i can think of one, being forced to play injured/concussed players. But that seems to be acceptable in most sports which is something i have a big problem with.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:29am
nickoldschool said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Fair call Jutsie. I guess cheating,, doping or playing dirty are still polluting some sports and some players consciously accept that, lance Armstrong being one who comes to mind. In rugby, I think the days where coaches asked players to brawl at the first scrum or target/injure players are over, at least in professional rugby.
To go back to QC and Deans, I do understand QC frustration IF deans was actually asking him/them to play negative rugby etc. I still don’t think he expressed it the right way, I.e on tv etc. but I do think it’s very commendable to speak up when you disagree instead of take the pay check and laugh at the coach behind his back or bag him. Again, that’s IF Deans really asked them to play the way QC said. plus that’s something that should have been discussed among players and coaching staff.
December 11th 2012 @ 4:47pm
AndyS said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
Quit – of course not. Come his next contract, I’d imagine what he’ll do is tweet all and sundry that he has had enough of the toxic work environment, can’t stand being dictated to by idiots above while being responsible for other idiots below, and won’t coach a team wearing yellow jerseys ever again. Then after a couple of days he’ll give some half arsed apology, threaten to go off and coach Georgia and wait for the ARU to back a dumptruck full of cash up to his front yard..
December 11th 2012 @ 9:40pm
Malo said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
It is the QLD state bias siege mentality syndrome. NSW can criticise their own but Qlder cant are loyal to the end and bring in all sorts of statistics to defend the undeniable. QC has played crap since Qld took the SR title. Lets blame Deans for everything garbage.
December 11th 2012 @ 5:58am
Billy Bob said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:58am | Report comment
Johnno, Jone said Lynagh was a’ ‘beautiful boy’?
And that is proof that he had superlative coaching skills?
No doubt he was a fine motivator. But divisive as well. And Australia’s greatest 10 (arguably) was lost to the game.
December 11th 2012 @ 6:58am
Allanthus said | December 11th 2012 @ 6:58am | Report comment
Agreed Billy Bob.
Think Robbie Deans is divisive? We ain’t seen nothing if Alan Jones was to replace him….
December 11th 2012 @ 6:56am
Who Needs Melon said | December 11th 2012 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Great article Uncle. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, we have a scorpion and frog scenario playing out here.
I think the new ARU head is going to have a big influence on Deans tenure as well. If he can be rehired despite having not yet reached the major hurdle (last World Cup) then he could presumably be dismissed regardless of the upcoming one. Who’d be a coach eh?
December 11th 2012 @ 7:18am
biltongbek said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:18am | Report comment
December 11th 2012 @ 7:00am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:00am | Report comment
If Cooper can come good at test level than great. It just isn’t going to happen though.
Barnes who is the inferior player at super xv level is the superior no 10 at test level. They are different games and require different attributes. A flick passing girl like cooper can’t bring that sht to the test arena beacuse there is too much at stake when it it goes wrong. The only player i think can bring their natural running game from super xv to test level at no 10 is oconnor. Time will tell. in nay case you’ll eed a decent no 9 and we only have one.
Deans tactics are correct it is just that we don’t have the depth of talent in key positions. Genia got injured and we don’t have a back up no 9. not Deans fault! we don’t have a decent no 6 in the entire country. not Deans fault! etc etc
and alan jones would have has running it wide every time we got the ball. defences would just ferry us into touch. one way rugby is too simplistic in the modern game.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:35am
B-Rock said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:35am | Report comment
Hmmm… Expect a few heated replies to this
Barnes is underrated and a better test player than SR player but its a stretch to put him out in front given recent performances
Cooper at this best is brilliant – the key is finding that form again post major knee surgery – not ideal for a zippy 10 which relies on latteral quickness and his stepping game.
Correct on Jones- he is 30yrs out of the game and totally irrelevant to modern rugby
December 11th 2012 @ 7:45am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
I am a waratah supporter and Barnes is NOT a good super xv player i can assure you. The tahs forwrards provide the tah backline with more than enough ball each week to win every match. They don’t and barnes has a lot to do with that albeit this year with under-performing no 9′s and no strike players on the wings.
But for some reason Barnes turns it on in a wallaby shirt where conservative play pays greater dividends, and he proved that yet again for the wallabies this year that test rugby is his bag.
coopers fairy floss rubbish has no place in test rugby.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:47am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:47am | Report comment
Barnes was quite reasonable against wales, a team that has now lost 7 or 8 or 9 in a row. And we were very convincing in all those victories, had me sewn up along way out…
Its a pity we could only beat one team in the top four all year
December 11th 2012 @ 7:56am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:56am | Report comment
thats because we are the 4th best side in the world at the moment.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:25am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Oh well that’s ok then…
December 11th 2012 @ 8:28am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
thats reality
did you think after the super xv where all our sides generally got smashed by the saffas and kiwi sides would all of a sudden all become world beaters?
December 11th 2012 @ 9:12am
Fin said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
to be fair Mark the Tahs forwards provided plenty of ball when they were going sideways or backwards, on the rare occasion one of them got over the ad line they ere isolated- believe me i watched every game- most of the time crying. Barnes is finally getting some game time in the position that best suits him. If the tahs are willing to risk some of their 70% posession in an attempt to go forward the backs might get some quality ball to use. Hopefully Foley gets his hands on it before Barnes.
To me Barnes has been an ideal 15 for Beale at 10- Beale just hasn’t delivered. Cooper and Barnes have played well together at Super rugby and in Test rugby but at 10 & 12. I’d like to see them get a run together at 10 & 15. Bring Genia and Cooper into the current backline and you have potential. Genia marshalls the forwards. Barnes is the cool head that control field position and the tempo of the game and Cooper is there for the “fairy floss” stuff, the try creates we don’t have at the moment.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:26am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:26am | Report comment
possession is gained from the breakdown mostly and the tahs did ok at this… sideways or not. The fact is it was not always sidewyas or backwatds….in Palu we had our guy getting over the advantage line. You just need to look at his stats he was carrying an immense amount of metres gained! 50-100m every game! twice as many as the next best in australia. The halves need to orchestrate what to do with it all.
Cooper’s fairy floss stuff is a liability at test level. Give me beale/oconnor any day of the week insetad.
enjoyed your post!
December 11th 2012 @ 7:42am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:42am | Report comment
A post of great maturity mark… Quick question, what are Deans correct tactics?
December 11th 2012 @ 7:55am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:55am | Report comment
for starters he does not bow to the whim of arm chair critics to play what was once known as one way rugby. These days teams just ferry you into touch if you do looping moves, cut outs etc especially from set play.
you must make an incision through the defence. Thats what he’s trying to do. for this to work we need someone else to carry effectively, not just Palu who has to do the bulk of this and was simply let down by the no 6′s we’ve had this year who did not pull their weight. And we need quick service form your no 9 and Phipps did not provide this. Genia will. The tactics are correct.
from counter attack and or turn over players must choose the right times to attack. clearly he has implemented the correct structure to do this. We play our halves and fullback as our back 3 whcih gives us our most creative players to decide what to do. Wingers and centres need to track back to support but the 9.10 and 15 are in charge and they are also our best kickers so if the defence has chased well they can get most distance with a kick return.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:24am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:24am | Report comment
Yep, just as I thought, not much in the way of tactics.
Have you derided McKenzie for playing his 10 at 15 for precisely the same reason Deans is, counter attack?
As other teams have shown set piece moves can be very effective if you have a coach who can create and implement them correctly against specific defence.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:29am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
who.
where are all these amazing set piece moves that cause so much havoc against defences when they are at their most organised?
irecall the all balcks scoring one try against us from a mid field set piece. other than that?
December 11th 2012 @ 9:01am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Well there’s that nice lineout move that the All Blacks scored with against France in the RWC final. They used that against the Wallabies in 2008 (worked once, failed once) and then held it for 3 years according to McCaw’s book.
And there’s the lovely Super XV semi-final try courtesy of a Reds lineout to Cooper to Davies.
You’ve already mentioned Dagg’s try against us this year.
Honestly though I’d be happy if Deans could just get them drawing and passing (or in McCabe’s case just passing would be an improvement).
December 11th 2012 @ 9:08am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Set piece is when the defence may well be the most organised, its generally also when there is the most space to attack with the pack tied up.
To not attack with ingenuity and a plan in that situation is ridiculous. I dont care if other teams are doling it or not the fact remains the same that its a brilliant opportunity.
The fact that you argue few teams are doing it is exactly one of the reasons I dont like Deans tenure – he is a not a trend setter, he is a follower!
December 11th 2012 @ 9:21am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
staistically most tries are scored from the 2nd and 3rd phase. A lot of tries are scored form counter attack and turn over ball from 0 phases as well. Not many from the set piece. Set piece play is not the answer as it once was in yester year where you were less likely to recycle ball and so you had to throw the ball around from the set piece. it was all or nothing but that is no longer the case!
also interestingly a lot of tries can be tracked back from lineout source. so ideally you punch the ball ip with Palu from a lineout win mid field and get quick recycled ball to score on the next phase or the one after that. if you haven’t score from the 3rd phase statistically it becomes near impossible to score and so a tactical kick is the best option. This scenario is why Genia is vitally important. We need his speed to and from the breakdown and his tactical nous as to when to kick if the defense is too good and still set.
We also need to counter attack from turn over ball. This is why pocock is more important to us than Hooper because pocock gets more turn overs. But we then need Genia to turn the turn over ball into an attacking raid not Phipps who kicks it straight away.
we also need more attacking raids from the back. Phipps’ try he set up fro Cummins against england was perfect. we need more of that!
December 11th 2012 @ 10:25am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
So mark – if the lineout is the best place to set up an attacking platform why are Deans’ “correct tactics” (to quote you) to end a lineout with a crash ball centre field through either McCabe or Timani? Every time. No trouble for the defense and most of those rucks were set behind the advantage line.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:43pm
GWS said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:43pm | Report comment
Digbys try. First set piece wbs try since Italy rwc. Argies against abs in arg. Crusaders do it well
December 11th 2012 @ 8:48am
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Mark, by using the term “arm chair critic” you presume to put yourself, as a coach, with Deans and above the comment of non-coaches. That’s fine, that’s your call, but I would ask you to reflect on it. Is it possible that some of the commenters you are deriding actually played the game for a sustained period of time (perhaps more than you) or at a high level? Anyway, its a pretty demeaning comment, and I think it detracts from your otherwise strong points.
For my 2 cents worth, my issue with Dean’s tactics as you describe is, when Plan A fails, there is no apparent Plan B. We continue to try the same tactic over and over and over again – the defensive coaches for our opposition must have one of the cruisiest gigs ever.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:06am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
I am an arm chair critic as are you. It is not a derogatory term at all it is a fact and we need to remember our place. I don’t expect Deans to listen to a word I say, but so many roarers feel he should be picking a side that they personally agree with and get very angry when he doesn’t as if it were obvious.
We can’t even agree amongst ourselves. The other day i posted our best backrow option would be Pocock, Palu and Auelua. Some who generally disagree with everything i say as a reflex action posted this would be awesome and one posted it would be the worst backrow option in history.
so why do so many expect a universal selection policy or universally agreed tactics.
i want the focus on the breakdown and the subtleties of rugby whereas many want only fairy floss stuff.
I firmly believe I am right and wish to point out that Deans not playing fairy floss may not be the right way to go in many arm chair critics eyes but it is 100% the right tactic IMHO.
You have to earn the right to play that way and we need a nucleus of world xv players to play that way like the All Blacks otherwise it is just a foolish recipe for failure. We do not have those calibre of players. Certainly not in 2012 with all the injuries. This nucleus needs to come from super xv. This is what we should be talking about not just the wallabies. Why do we struggle at provincial level. and then expect magnificent things from the national side. That is the problem.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:08am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
i will say that i would change the kick happy nature of our halves from counter attack. i don’t think Genia and oconnor will be so quick to kick.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:52am
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
and I’m not arguing any of those points. What I will say is that you have more eloquently described in a very short statement what Deans is unwilling or incapable of conveying. Noone expects a universally accepted selection policy and set of tactics, but fans (with their sign-on fees, memberships and by purchasing merchandise and tickets) have a right to expect their team to play with passion (more often than not true this last season) and play with tactical nouse (even the most ardent supported of Deans would struggle here). Even accepting injury tolls (which are commonplace for all teams), we do not appear to be playing with a strategy that matches our strengths and limitations.
For the coach, at the end of a long international season, to still be expressing dissatisfaction with basic skills and the execution of certain plays indicates to me that either his team is not listening to him anymore, or he is incapable of reigning them in (or dropping them and putting in players that will do as required). As a amateur player I was unfortunately in both situations and it can be (dare I say it) “toxic”. Either way, that is surely the death knell for any coach, regardless of their abilities – Tim Sheens at the West Tigers NRL side a perfect case in point. Deans WAS the right choice for coach at the time. But if his team is not responding to him, and you accept that you can’t simply keep the coach and toss out the team, then its now become the wrong time.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:52am
Chivas said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
I’m not jumping to Mark’s defence, as he can speak for himself. What I can say is I have played rugby all my life since I was 5 till a about 30…. After that a bit more socially or to help out at my local club, when they were short. I played a handful of games provincially.
But my point is at senior club level for division 1 teams and provincial teams, I have never played under a coach who had no plan, no strategy and / or no skills development. To say a super 15 coach, who did coach the AB’s and while many quote Richie as saying he preferred Henry over Robbie, be very assured that wasn’t the opinion of everyone.
Anyway, my point is even though I have played the game for a long time, coaching is quite different and I am always interested in the insight into the subtle tactics and strategies. I remember at training. I was playing for Auckland Marist at the time and was watching one of the skills coaches teaching props how to bind and twist the opposition, some of it legal some of it not. But it was a serious session and there is no f king around. It’s about being the best and taking no prisoners. These guys have a truckload of knowledge regarding strategies and plans down to a detailed level. I can assure you Robbie Deans is a highly astute coach. Whether people like the outcomes or not, well that is debatable.
As to your point about a plan B. that is an interesting one. If you look at the AB’s for years that appeared to be their problem. If you look at the Bok, they are one dimensional. They just play that one dimension well and when they have all their players it’s a bit if a juggernaut. But you may notice games can change at half time. Why not other times? If you look at the AB’s under Richie and the AB’s without Richie that is what you notice. A captain that knows when and what to change and has the confidence and self-belief to make those changes.
Who in the Wallabies would you give that responsibility to? QC? That is another reason Horwill is missed. He seems to have on field leadership skills.
I don’t respond to RK’s comments because he clearly believes he is right and that is more important than being open minded. And fair enough. It’s a blog site where everyone no matter there involvement in the game past or future can comment. For me to deride RK serves no purpose as he is a passionate fan which rugby needs. But nor do I think comments and opinions made are always based on sound knowledge. For the most part it seems there is very little knowledge is applied… hence the term armchair critic. And I think that was Marks point.
Seriously a guy who has been coaching one of the best sides in NZ history. a brief stint at the AB’s… a far more successful career than any current Australian candidates… and for people to say he should get on economy and go home, he is useless and the best they have us to quote a book and a bunch of sports hacks… It’s more offensive IMHO.
But each to there own I guess
December 11th 2012 @ 10:29am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
From whence does knowledge come? You are falling into the trap that we can’t comment because we aren’t present when Deans is talking so we don’t know.
Guess what – we don’t know a lot of things. We infer what is going on based on what we can see – body language, performance, what is said and done.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:05am
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
as per my comment to Mark above, I don’t care if Deans is smarter than Einstein, if his players aren’t listening (and clearly they are applying selective hearing at best) he should have the stones to pick players that will – goodness knows he’s persisted with McCabe through thick and thin, and for whatever else people might say about McCabe, he’s a good footsoldier that plays to the plan.
Your call re McCaw’s onfield leadership is an interesting one – Sharpie is a pretty inspirational leader, but I think the last few tests have shown that he’s no on-field tactician. The draw against the ABs being the perfect example – I have little doubt they were executing a plan, and it was a situation tailor-made for a captain to make a situational call. As to Richie’s decision to take the scrum and try for the win, well I reckon that was all him, no reference to the box, as the coaching staff trust him implicity to make the right calls, and back him to the hilt when he makes the wrong ones. The last Wallaby Captain to enjoy that sort of trust was Stirlo (and I’m including Horwill).
December 11th 2012 @ 11:21am
Chivas said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
And perception is reality… that’s too easy. Let me ask it a different way. If you love your job, the reason you love your job is for several reasons, you are good at it, you are proud of the results and the way it all makes you feel, you love the challenge and feel like you can leave a strong legacy. i don’t personally know anyone who loves a job they are rubbish at.
But yet you deride Deans as if he was an under 85′s social coach. I don’t think you are ignorant or lack knowledge, but I could assume it from your comments. Equally I could assume that someone who is as passionate as you about your sport isn’t so one dimensional and can see what the coach contributes. That knowing that he is a highly regarded coach and hearing comments from people like Brett Mackay who have interviewed him and hold him in high regard, you are genuinely curious about how he operates. Or maybe not, maybe it’s just simpler to rant and repeat cliches ad infinitum because you like the noise it makes.
Either way your perception is not reality. For mine I would prefer something that is interesting and more interesting. Like what would a tactic or game plan be that you would like to see employed. Who would the players be who could make that happen. What are the weaknesses you see in other teams…. Not from 80,000 feet. Otherwise you may as well say it once and be done with it no?
i don’t like Robbie Deans, he is a poor coach even though I personally have no clue. I also have no respect for his management team, especially the ones that contribute to selections and the few I might like don’t have any say because Robbie Dean’s is stubborn and won’t listen. I know this because I read a passage in Richies book (there are also other cases of incidents) which I only have a basic understanding of the context, but I’m quite happy to extrapolate this across everything to join the dots in my head.
There I said it and interpreted it from my perspective. Is it right or a pile of crap. The latter I expect like much if the conjecture and discussion about Robbie Deans ability as a coach.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:52am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Not for nothing but I only finished reading McCaw’s book yesterday and I criticised Deans for all the same issues before the end of the RWC last year. Interestingly the tone he uses to refer to Deans alters during the course of the narrative – by the end it certainly appears that there is some ill feeling there, I wouldn’t call it personal animosity but certainly a loss of respect or perhaps even disappointment from McCaw.
The reason I don’t say it once and then shut up is because (a) the issue keeps coming up and (b) the issue isn’t resolved as Deans is still there squandering the talents of the most gifted Wallabies we’ve had in more than 10 years. You don’t affect change by being passive (and yes I am one of those people that writes letters to the editor and I have written to Deans as a random member of the public – however it isn’t appropriate to write to someone and tell them they should resign).
Perception isn’t reality, results are reality, 1 try a match is reality, a negative for-and-against ratio is reality, the fact that a player was so disillusioned that he was moved to publicly criticise the Wallaby environment is reality.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:49am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:49am | Report comment
Deans tactics are not correct. Deans simply tries to hang in there and hang in there and not lose the match, then if it is close near the end hope for a wonder play from one of his beloved x-factor stars. That’s not a plan, that isn’t tactics, that is gutless.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:01am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:01am | Report comment
I have a feeling you don’t do much coaching.
I do and trust me his tactics are correct. Player personal is the problem. If we didn’t play this way we’d have lost more matches this year.
for example most arm chair critics would not have noticed that Deans has vastly improved our breakdown technique this year. We ‘jack knife’ and ‘pencil’ much better than our super xv sides which don’t do this basic tactic well, and we provide the linear competition at the breakdown that the europeans side do… finally
i could go on but read an earlier post i wrote
December 11th 2012 @ 8:11am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:11am | Report comment
You can’t say “his tactics are correct” and then follow it up with “player personal is the problem” (I will assume you meant personnel).
You have to try to implement a gameplan that the personnel you have available can deliver. It is no use setting up a race strategy perfectly suited to a Ferrari if you’re driving a Datsun.
That is coaching 101.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:18am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:18am | Report comment
a good point but you’ve kinda argued against yourself.
When your best attacking players genia, oconnor and you’d say cooper are not available you don’t play the expansive game.
You play an even more conservative game plan and you make sure you improve the basics ie the breakdown techniques and you win the test matches you should. You lose the ones that you were never going to win and you hope that you get lucky (we drew with the all blacks for instance) sometimes.
and no one seems to have mentioned how unbelievably good our defence has been this year! it went a bit pear shaped against a very good france performance but other than a bad pass charge down try to Italy which was a knock on, we did very well on the spring tour!
its not all about attack!
December 11th 2012 @ 8:57am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
I don’t see how I’m arguing against myself.
Deans picks Cooper – and gives him McCabe outside him – does he want attack or defense? The key is Deans doesn’t know himself.
Deans picks Beale – who 12 months ago was challenging Dagg for the title of premier world fullback – and puts him at 10.
Deans picks the best performed centre (Tapuai) in Australia only because of injury and moves Ashley-Cooper around so much he probably thought about putting on a loose forward jersey at one point.
The problem isn’t the personnel, it’s the selecting … then the gameplan … and that’s the coach.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:35am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
he wants balance. otherwise we’d pick 5 fly halves. someone has to have a defensive game!
How is taps the best performed centre in australia. Apart from the fact he has been injured almost all year? how did taps go against wales? awful btw
I too thought Beale should’ve stayed at 15. that we agree.
wallaby coaches always pick sides that you won’t agree with entirely. Me included. there are millions of fans all with differing opinions. No point expecting the team to picked exactly as you wish or with hindsight and there is no point expecting tactical perfection particularly in ayear ravaged by injuries. Just support the side! you seem to support the reds even when they lost by 60 points or whatever it was. you didn’t seem to want to lynch mckenzie then?
December 11th 2012 @ 10:16am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
He does pick 5 flyhalves! Actually if truth be told he tries to pick a scrumhalf and 6 fullbacks.
McCabe isn’t balance, it’s strangling the attack.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:21am
Fin said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Mark 12 months ago i would have agreed with you, I thought deans was pinning his world cup plans on Pocock and McCabe tackling their hearts out and Cooper coming up with one play to seal the deal. Defence wins Test Match Rugby right?
But as we have seen this year remove Pocock, remove McCabe and Horne as a defensive centre combo, remove the hard hitting Ant Finger and our defence has held up fine. The problem is we only find this out through injury. Why wasn’t Taps given a run earlier, maybe JOC outside Cooper isn’t going to be the turnstile that everyone predicts. Deans was right to put high importance on defence unfortunately he has little faith in those coming in, he either over rates the chosen few or underatesthe others. where as the reality is we have plenty of depth in defence but not in attack, why not pick our best attacking team and work on defence rather than the other way around.
RK i think you are looking at the beale to 10 move in isolation and are not seing a bigger picture. Beale at 10 is right because he is the option most likely to play like Cooper. This actually makes some sense, to have some cotinuity of style. If Cooper is the type of 10 you want have a similar understudy ready to go. If Barnes is the type of Fullback you want have some one similar like Harris ready to replace him. Don’t spend two years teaching the backs to play outside Cooper then, when he is injured replace him with Barnes.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:30am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Strange – that is exactly what Deans did against Wales and in Bledisloe 1.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:34am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:34am | Report comment
RK what were the other options in the wales series? And I think deans fell in the trap of being too loyal to barnes for bled one after his heroic effort of flying back from his pregnant wife’s bedside for the melbourne test against wales.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:06am
PeterK said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:06am | Report comment
mark – I agree and disagree with you.
When I did a detailed analysis of Deans performance in relation to what has improved / declined I found the breakdown was one of his strengths. We have multiple tactics / plans in that area, we vary flooding it, or only have a couple, we counterruck a lot better and pilfer well, and slow the ball down well.
The defence has been good BUT not as good as it used to before Deans. Muggleton did a better job.
This year the defence was only average. The losses we had were by big margins, AB’s, Boks France all smashed us.
Even worse weaker teams like Wales and Italy made easy easy yards and broke plenty of tackles. Cover defence and goal defence saved us.
Now the point re his tactics being correct are wrong IMO.
As per the point above how come virtually every team has a better attack than we do?
I am not mentioning loops, or flairy floss here. Why can’t the backs support one another, why do we not have 2 attacking waves of attack? Why do we not have both forwards and backs when they make a break doing a short pop pass. None of this requires great skill, but it does require good tactics and training for them.
The attack is limited in the backs to crash ball over the advantage line, incredibly easy to defend against.
Then he tried to use Beale for variation but sideways running is not a tactic.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:23am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Do you think there is a correlation between our improved breakdown work and the erosion of our attacking play?
back in 2010/2009 we played with width but on many occasions we would turnover ball on the wings at the breakdowns following linebreaks. Do you think deans has switched to a more narrow gameplan because he doesnt have faith in the fitness an/or work ethic of some of his pack? Its similar to NSW when waugh was captain, they played a narrow gameplan to accommodate his ageing body.
And agree about the defence, whilst our try-line defence has been heroic we have often been opened up further from the line. IMO deans has improved the defence in the last 2 years more because he has selected strong tacklers rather than any defensive structures he has put in place, muggleton was a master of defensive structures.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:33am
PeterK said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Short answer no.
The poor breakdown play was mainly due to lack of skills / willingness in the forwards. The attitude and technique has improved.
The poor attack is mainly down to backs lack of skills, lack of game plans and tactics.
We did lose the ball at the breakdown out wide but that was because the forwards by and large were not fast enough (nor should they make all the breakdowns on the wing) and the backs were not supporting. If the backs supported like other teams do then they would be there for the counter ruck.
Furthermore if we were supporting then a pop pass could of been made.
If we did go wide and there is no one in support and you are going to get tackled then that is a good time to kick, which they did not.
I think they switched to a narrow game plan because Deans was unable to teach the backs the right skills / tactics when running it wide.
December 11th 2012 @ 6:01pm
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
Your explanation makes sense too, the change to the narrow gameplan due to players not working hard enough to win possession back out wide indicates to me that either aussie players have a poor work ethic and/or culture of entitlement or that deans is not getting his message across to the playing group and/or is picking the wrong players to execute his original gameplan.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:14am
Markus said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
“Genia got injured and we don’t have a back up no 9. not Deans fault!”
Really? Deans has had 4-5 years to introduce another scrumhalf, but insists on playing Genia for every minute of every game whenever possible.
Phipps was thrown in the deep end this year without a minute of game time to his name, despite having been in Deans’ Wallabies squads for over two years.
And the form Aus halfback of this season, Nic White, was told his services weren’t needed for the Test season, so went and got elective surgery.
Which part isn’t the coach’s fault?
December 11th 2012 @ 9:18am
Uncle Argyle said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
I agree Markus – White was poorly handled by the ARU this season. Phipps and Sheehan both had the worst defensive records for Australian half backs in the Super 15 this season. More poor selecting by Deans in my opinion. I thought McKibbon or Holmes would have done a better job. I anticipate Ben Lucas to feature next year for the both the Reds and possibly the Wallabies.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:28am
Jutsie said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
TBF to phipps his high rate of missed tackles in the super season is because he usually acts as cover defence for the rebels but I still dont think he is upto test standard and rate white higher than him. Whilst I admire his tenacity, his passing and decision making is on level with burgess (which is not a good thing).
December 11th 2012 @ 7:04pm
Blue Blood said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
Agreed. Deans has had ample opportunities over 4 years to blood depth through rotation and also through his bench. Instead he flogs his favourites until they break and only then is someone else given a chance. Many top Super players have been denied strong international careers by that man. He selects on favourites before form and refuses to blood the talent needed to avoid Phipps like situations. Appalling selector and appalling player manager.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:50am
Crash Ball said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Great article UA.
Mark: the right tactics without the personnel who can execute them? Might this in fact be the textbook definition of the wrong tactics? If RD steadfastly adheres to tactics that his players are unable to effectively execute, could this potentially be considered his fault?
December 11th 2012 @ 5:05pm
Jiggles said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Don’t try and argue with sound logic CB, his head might just explode.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:11am
nickoldschool said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
I really hope these 2 would sit down and talk openly. Too much non said, or said via twitter, agents etc, at this stage. Both of them have a lot in common: kiwi born, awkwards, not the best communicators, egocentrics, the list goes on.
Despite all these, my views on both of them are completely different: Cooper the player is the most exciting thing oz rugby has seen in the last decade but i just dont/cant like the man i am seeing. At best, i feel sorry for him ( i often think he has a mental disorder when i hear him talk).
Deans? the opposite. while i respect the man for his resilience, ethics, patience, professionalism and commitment, i just dont get the coach and his choices. And thats the real dilemma for me: both of them have the qualities needed to succeed at this level but they also have faults which looked too big/deep to be corrected. nice balanced article Uncle!
December 11th 2012 @ 7:51am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Deans can’t talk openly. He’ll mangle any sentence with owning the reality of denying access to the paradigm shift of progressive performance indicators.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:17am
AussieKiwi said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Ah Red Kev you are too harsh on Robbie. He can actually talk coherently and directly. I have heard it (I admit it did come as a surprise). All that jargon which makes him sound like he swallowed an undergraduate business studies textbook comes out because he is so scared of actually saying anything,the poor man.
December 11th 2012 @ 8:29am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
I know, I do just like to trot that one out as a free kick of sorts because it does allude to communication issues which I do believe to be a problem within the Wallabies and a weakness of Deans.
I understand Deans fear of being misrepresented by being too blunt, but Australians like New Zealanders are fairly blunt, we’d probably be okay with him shrugging his shoulders and saying “they smashed us, we’ll go back and try to look at how we can counter that, but today we just didn’t play hard enough”. Provided he doesn’t single out players in an attempt to shift blame the public is likely to accept that (especially if they do go away and improve).
December 11th 2012 @ 8:51am
nickoldschool said | December 11th 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Dunno if it’s a problem of communication or not but RD doesn’t inspire confidence. You need self belief and confidence as a leader and I think his confidence in his own abilities and his troops has been eroding with time. Am sure it does transpire in some of his troops now as you have quite a few players who have been under performing under him while playing some very good footy with their team (higginbotham, QC, Beale immediately come to mind ).
December 11th 2012 @ 9:31am
eagleJack said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Just because Deans doesn’t speak in “simpleton” does not mean that the Wallabies have communication issues. Deans happens to be one of the great rugby minds and is a very interesting man to talk to.
You are drawing a very long bow there RK. But I guess when you post the same thing every single day for months on end, then drawing long bows is inevitable.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:37am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
We have to take your word for it though EJ as it we havent seen much of what you describe and I think that is fair.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:37am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
It isn’t a very long bow at all – there are just as many if not more press allusions to the fact of Deans poor communication as there are to problems between Cooper and other Wallabies.
You clearly do not understant that “simpleton” is not the same as clarity.
A great mind does not lead to great communication. Plenty of very smart people are hopeless at explaining anything.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:26am
rl said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
well they clearly DO have communications issues – if Deans is exasperated by stupid kicking early in the international season, and they are still doing it later in the season, then there is a breakdown in communication through (a) not conveying the message or (b) not listening. So assuming (a) was done, then whoever didn’t listen needs to be dropped. But as McCaw says in his book, making tough selection calls is not one of Robbie’s strong points.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:31am
nickoldschool said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Agree rl, good post.
December 11th 2012 @ 4:55pm
AndyS said | December 11th 2012 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Actually, what I see whenever Deans talks is a man picking his words very carefully, conscious to avoid saying anything that might upset someone. Probably been burnt a few times…
December 11th 2012 @ 11:59pm
GWS said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:59pm | Report comment
Fluid dingo …
December 11th 2012 @ 7:36am
El Gamba said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Good article Uncle.
I think it’s time for everyone to calm down and take the opportunity to start with a blank piece of paper.
Deans had to contend with key injuries which certainly affected his ability to deliver on a consistent game plan. This showed in the performances and yet the wallabies kept winning.
Quade has had a long term injury and the few games he had were in a fairly unsettled back line.
They now all get a chance for a respite and reset for the challenges ahead.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:39am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:39am | Report comment
as for Mckenzie, if getting the best out of players is to encourage them not to fix their weaknesses and simply hide them by having others pick up the slack then yes he is doing a good job.
By allowing Cooper not to have to tackle and by not stamping out the selfish play he has in him ie the flick passing to anyone when under pressure to go into contact, which simply passes the pressure onto the nearest team-mate, he has instilled the cocky self sense of rugby god grandeur attitude this unproven test rugby player has. Sure it came off in 2011 for the reds but this style got found out at the RWC last year. Mckenzie did him a dis-service by appeasing to his weaknesses not actually insisting he improve them.
Mckenzie has done the same dis-service to Higginbotham who has the body of a greek god but the playing style of a fairy.
these guys need a coach not a friend.
December 11th 2012 @ 7:44am
Justin2 said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:44am | Report comment
these guys need a coach not a friend
That’s exactly what has been the problem with deans and the amigos!
December 11th 2012 @ 7:55am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 7:55am | Report comment
You clearly didn’t watch the Reds or read my post on the subject yesterday or simply don’t care because you just want to keep spouting the same drivel.
Cooper was at fullback as an attacking option. Considering the outcome of the 2011 season I would call it clever strategy. Pro Tip – points win matches, attack is not a dirty word (not that you’d know that as a Waratahs and Deans fan).
Cooper does tackle. Defended at 10 in for the Reds under McKenzie in 2010 and 2012.
Passes are by their nature unselfish.
December 11th 2012 @ 9:39am
mark said | December 11th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
flick passing the pressure onto your team-mates when the best option is to go into contact is not selfish?
mckenzie himself has said he dropped Cooper out of the line because he didn’t ‘want’ to defend. I recall cooper not even attempting tackles from the back. Embarassing stuff for a supposed test player.
December 11th 2012 @ 10:16am
Red Kev said | December 11th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
I also remember Cooper stopping certain tries with one on one tackles when there was nothing but him and goal-line.
I also remember Cooper making the tackle that stopped an SA try in the RWC Quarter Final.
Not sure where you got that quote from McKenzie – being a Reds Member and watching/listening to a lot of the interviews on ABC radio (and Reds TV last year) I clearly remember McKenzie talking about Cooper as a counter attacker and having him at fullback put the ball in his hands more often which was a good thing.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:05pm
Handles said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
You are just trolling Mark, aren’t you?
Quade takes the ball into contact just as often as Beale, and is much more precise. He is undoubtedly the bravest runner of the ball we have had at 10 since Bernie. Barnes is the one who throws the “don’t tackle me” passes.
December 11th 2012 @ 11:17am
PeterK said | December 11th 2012 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Totally disagree that the attacking style was found out in the RWC. Totally wrong.
Up until the RWC the Wallabies did play good attacking rugby, Cooper played well, the team had confidence, they won the TN’s.
Then for some bizarre reason Deans changed to being very conservative and defensive just at the RWC. He picked non passing McCabe at 12. He instructed them to kick a lot.
This was really poor for multiple reasons
1) The team did not have time to gel to these new tactics, they had not played like that before
2) Did not pick the right players for that style. Should of picked an english / SA style kicking flyhalf who just kicks for position.
3) Why change winning tactics
So bottom line that style did NOT get found out, how could it when they did not play like that
December 11th 2012 @ 5:10pm
Jiggles said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
“as for Mckenzie, if getting the best out of players is to encourage them not to fix their weaknesses and simply hide them by having others pick up the slack then yes he is doing a good job”
You really are a sad, confused little man aren’t you.
Link clearly adapts his game-plan for the conditions. No one put a gun to Deans head telling him to play Cooper at 15, and it was clearly a silly move at Test level, yet he persisted with it. Deans piggy backed off another coaches idea, and didn’t think about how it would transition into the test arena. He has been guilty of that working with the All Blacks and the Wallabies.