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I have learnt through credible confidential sources there is an ARU board member and members of the broader Australian rugby community, who have influence on such matters, who do not support Robbie Deans continuing as Wallabies coach into 2013.
This is despite Australian Rugby Union Chairman Michael Hawker stating there was “very little chance” of a change of national coach in his recent interview with The Australian.
If you read into the language used by Hawker – who stated, “There is no view to moving the incumbent on until there is reason to,” and, “There is very little chance of a change” – at no stage has Hawker confirmed Deans will remain 100%.
Furthermore how much credence can be given to these comments when Hawker has exempted himself from the review process?
Robbie Deans’ Wallaby coaching future has been left up to John Eales, George Gregan and Brett Robinson to determine as they form the review panel. Perhaps they might determine there is a reason to change the national coach?
Time will tell, however Hawker, by his own exemption, is providing comment on a subject out of his control.
I am in possession of documentary evidence that strongly indicates at least one ARU board member thinks the Wallabies were lucky in their recent victories over Italy and Wales.
Furthermore, this board member believes Robbie Deans has no idea when it comes to tactics and selections and will leave Australian rugby in a worse place than when he found it and a complete ‘clean out’ is required.
Interestingly though, the ARU board member does not appear to have any idea on who should replace Deans, if he indeed is to be replaced.
I can only interpret from this that the much respected Ewen McKenzie is not a certainty if the position were it to become vacant. This is not a bad thing as McKenzie and any other party should actually have to apply!
It appears the ARU is treading gently but with intent and does not wish to expose the possibility of a new coach until a new CEO is in place. All is calm, move along, nothing to see here!
What alarms me is clearly the ARU has never adopted the notion of succession planning for the position of national coach. I can only interpret the plan was that Deans is the man until further notified.
This is just clear amateurism when you consider how the All Blacks develop their coaches. How long as Steve Hansen been a part of the All Black fold?
What is encouraging is that there is at least a review to determine if Deans is to remain. The manner in which Deans was firstly appointed then re-appointed to the position was inappropriate and should never be repeated.
In considering this information I can only conclude the ARU is taking a leaf straight out of the Australian political arena by forming its own ‘judicial enquiry’ and will take its recommendation on the coaching issue from the Eales, Gregan and Robinson review, which I suspect will come before the announcement of the new CEO.
This will essentially distance the current ARU power-brokers from making the final decision and leaving the new CEO to potentially sack Robbie Deans as one of their first orders of business in the chair if his coaching review is unfavourable.
About the time I came into possession of this evidence I had a long conversation with an associate, who is a former Queensland Red and Wallaby, who appears to be well versed in the current machinations concerning the broader Wallaby playing group.
Without disclosing my documentary evidence, my associate volunteered that it was his understanding there were senior elements of the playing group who liked Deans as a person but not his coaching methods. That there were at times unclear and fortuned favourites.
Furthermore Deans has a total lack of man management skills and failed to develop a genuine homogenous group culture.
What was expressed to me in no uncertain terms by my associate was, in his opinion, Ewen McKenzie was the best coach to fill the role due to his ability to develop a team culture and a game plan that can be executed.
Furthermore, McKenzie is widely respected by many Australian players from outside the Red’s program.
While I support the notion of a panel review, I am not too sure if John Eales, George Gregan and Brett Robinson are best qualified to actually determine who our next national coach should be, as none of this trio have any professional coaching experience.
That is not to say their opinions should not be considered, but don’t we have a raft of successful coaches in this country who understand what the requirements of a successful coach are?
Why are Alan Jones, Dick Marks, Peter Crittle, Bob Dwyer, Rod McQueen and John Connolly not being asked to conduct this national coaching review when they are some of the most successful rugby coaching brains Australia have ever produced?
In my opinion, when it comes the future of the Wallaby coaching position, the wrong people are being asked the right question.
What are the ARU scared of – a qualified informed answer?
–
Editor’s note: At the time of publishing, The Roar could not confirm the opinion in this Roar of the crowd.
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December 17th 2012 @ 8:10am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Interesting article UA – fingers crossed!
December 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Yes its interesting and imo Deans should have gone after the WC but not becuz his man managment is poor becuz, lets face it, Quade Cooper is something else and Giteau had probs wherever he went and under pretty much all coaches.
I think the culture is wrong but that that is not Robbies fault exactly, just as it wasnt exactly MJs fault that the English team had a “bad” culture.
It is no secret that the “rockstar” image and lack of conviction of some of the younger players in the Wallabies has caused probs on and off the field.
Having said that, there seems to be a lack of respect for Robbie and the admin. I see the reason for this as being complicated but the main reason is that Australian rugby is lacking in depth and has more comp for the limelight than any other country and therefore people and players have power that they perhaps shouldnt. Certain clubs and players have the ARU by the balls and every so often they give a squeeze and the ARU seems to jump. This is a problem. Its one thing for club and country to work together bit a different thing when the indians are telling the chief what to do and letting the world know about it.
I dont see Deans as being the problem but I do see him as being unable to deal with it, partly becuz he is hogtied by the circumstances he finds himself in.
Also the idea that a guy whos been coaching for about 20 years at the highest level with Hansen, Mitchell, McCaw, Nucifora, Cotter, the ABs, The Crusaders and The Wallabies not knowing anything about tactics is beyond stupid. I mean to even suggest that a guy could get the job with the Crusaders, ABs and Wallabies without knowing about tactics…
It is not reasonable to blame Deans for all the ills of Australian and Wallabies rugby this year, infact its rediculous. The Scot games timing, the injury crisis, the lack of form from Beale, Cooper and others, the weakness of the scrum against Fra, the poor execution of game plans by poor kicking, the need to win no matter how in order to secure a top 4 spot and the Wallabies mixed form is not ALL Robbies fault. Its simply not. Thats reasonable and rational. Many people need something or someone to blame, taking into consideration all of the factors is not easy enough. Not being able to concerntrate all of your anger at one person is not as satisfying so people hear what they want to hear and dismiss the rest and what they want to hear is that it Robbies fault.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:56pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Even though this is an interesting article, lets debate the definition of the word objective by giving our own definitions (which is kinda ironic), debating semantics, asking the philisophical question “is anyone truely objective” and doing it for post after post until we start insulting each other.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:04pm
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
talking to yourself again Hightackle
December 17th 2012 @ 2:13pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
No. Thats called adding to my post. If there is another way I dont know it.
Im not sure how posting anything on the net can be called talking to yourself but thats becuz I think.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:14pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
See?
December 17th 2012 @ 2:29pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
you could reply to the original post you replied and not your own comment perhaps?
December 17th 2012 @ 9:46pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
Yeah maybe soap or maybe I will just keep doing what Im doing becuz Im cool with it.
December 18th 2012 @ 9:35am
soapit` said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
doing it hightacklestyle
December 17th 2012 @ 8:33am
Darwin Stubbie said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Interesting piece – but I’d have been more surprised if there wasn’t a few dissenting voices at the ARU about Deans – if he’s anything he’s polarising …. his wallaby selection and the mgmt of them has been pretty woeful – which only goes to show the strength of the grip JON had over the whole thing
But would you really need a lengthy review process which included Alan Jones, Bob Dwyer and John Connolly … I would have thought a 2 min phone hook up would suffice
December 17th 2012 @ 8:39am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
I read an article by Wayne Smith saying: ‘Meanwhile, it is understood at least one ARU board member does not support the retention of Robbie Deans as Wallabies coach for next year’s British and Irish Lions series.’
As no source is cited, and no hard evidence provided, I will choose not to believe this any more than rumours one hears in other contexts. Besides the Wayne Smith is so continuously critical of Deans that uncited evidence cannot be welcomed with immediate belief, as it might be with a less continuously critical writer.
That article, entitled ‘McCall endorses Reds chief for ARU’ somehow ended with the subject of Deans’ retention, after another article ‘ARU says coach quit’ on the departure of conditioning coach Ashley Jones, became largely concerned by the end with Deans’ retention as well ‘ARU chairman Michael Hawker has all but guaranteed Deans will retain his job through to the British and Irish Lions series, insisting there was “very little chance” of a new Wallabies coach being brought in to replace him.’
It goes without saying that Smith is highly critical of Robbie Deans, and one must assume his retention as head coach as well.
Will all Wayne Smith’s articles end with references to Deans’ retention, whatever the article’s titled subject? Those on cricket will at least be exempt.
December 17th 2012 @ 8:59am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
That’s because Wayne Smith doesn’t lose sight of his ultimate goal no matter what he’s writing. Do you remember his articles through late 2010 and all of 2011? Nearly every one of them linked in some way to poor governance by the ARU – he keeps fighting the good fight until he wins. The review happened, its recommendations have been adopted, there is genuine hope that the issue has been dealt with, certainly there is work to be done, but the new governance structure has to be looked at after a year in operation not prejudged – so problem sorted. Next problem – pathetic coach. Go you good thing Wayne Smith.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:11am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Red Kev, but isn’t Wayne Smith supposed to provide a balanced appraisal of Robbie Deans? If he continuously brings up his retention while casting it in a negative light, ‘fighting’ as you put it, then his appraisal of Deans is surely not balanced but one-sided?
Shouldn’t journalists provide balanced commentary, and not have as their ‘ultimate goal no matter what he’s writing’ the removal of the coach they’re supposed to be writing objectively about?
December 17th 2012 @ 9:19am
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
but “balanced” on Robbie Deans means he has to go. Objective means coming to an opinion fairly, not having no opinion at all.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:46am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Nonsense, fos.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
as to the meaning of objective, or your view that Deans must stay?
December 17th 2012 @ 10:06am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
No fos, objective means giving the arguments for his going and the arguments for his staying and not favouring one or the other.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:14am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
No kpm that is not what objective means – that is an example of bias towards fairness. In case you don’t know it means that you are preoccupied with giving equal voice and weight to all sides of an argument regardless of their validity. It is the absurd point of view that one J Howard imposed on the ABC when he forced through regulation that mandated that for every second of news or commentary that aired on the ABC that was critical of the (his) government there had to be a balancing second of positive broadcast. If it sounds ridiculous that is because it is.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:23am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Don’t be silly.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:31am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
While it is indeed silly, that regulation regarding the ABC is historical fact and the ‘bias towards fairness’ in the media is a real documented issue.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:40am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Ur just repeating themes from the show “the newsroom” now and “the bias towards fairness” has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Bias towards fairness relates to giving both sides of an argument equal coverage and respect even when one side (ie the tea party) is completely bonkers. How you can relate that to something as superficial as who coaches the wallabies is preposterous.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:45am
linz22 said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
No it doesn’t kpm, it means coming to a conclusion without the interference of bias. What you are saying is absolutely ridiculous, and nobody would ever read any sports articles if it was the case. Articles are written by people and therefore bias will always exist, but good articles are based on the objective collection of data and always strive to minimise bias. However, an opinion is not the same as bias, and i think you are getting “objective” confused with “facts”. writers have the right to an opinion one way or the other, they most certainly do not have to balance every argument as you suggest, they simply have to try and remain objective in their collection of information. i suggest to you that if a writer gave equal arguments for and against Deans that he/she would be exhibiting a lot of bias in Deans’s favour because the “againsts” would always outweigh the “fors”.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:45am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
I didn’t know the newsroom reported on Australian domestic politics circa 2000, interesting.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:22am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
linz untrue, opinions and objectivity are not the same.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:09pm
linz22 said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
KPM did you even read what i wrote? At what point did i say that opinions were the same as objectivity? Honestly, i think you are just getting confused. you seem to think that objective reporting is the presentation of facts for and against, this is nonsense and if it were the case journalists would just be replaced by computers. objective reporting is when a journalist bases his/her article on objective data. what you are saying is that a conclusion one way or the other is not objective because it does not provide a balanced argument, this is absolute rubbish. conclusions can be objective, or do you also think that a conclusion/result of a perfectly scientific experiment based on accurate objective data is false because it decides on an answer and does not sit on the fence objectively??
Honestly, your whole argument does not make any sense at all.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:19pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Well, a quite extraordinary definition of objectivity but one which would doubtless serve any ends.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:28pm
linz22 said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
at what point did i give a definition of objectivity? i simply stated that journalists are entitles to a conclusions based on objective fact, and just because there is a conclusion does not necessarily make it subjective, as seen in the results of a scientific experiment.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:33pm
linz22 said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
i think it is your lack of objectivity when it comes to Deans that makes you blind to any argument but your own. i personally have no issue with Deans at all, i could not care less if he is a Kiwi, i base my opinion solely on what i see on the field and take into account the many other factors that are contributory which are outside of Deans’s control.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:36pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
In that case you are to be congratulated linz on objectivity, however you wish to define it.
Few could claim the same on the issue.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:46pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Including you kpm.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:00pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
In your, apparently objective opinion.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:29pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
I’m not sure that I’ve called myself “objective” anywhere in this thread.
I have “objectively” reviewed and considered Deans’ tenure in charge of the Wallabies and found him wanting (or graded him a failure if you prefer). However an “objective” review of my stories on the matter and posts would find that while I may have started out “objective” I have since become entrenched in my position (which tends to happen when a situation drags on and on with no action or resolution).
Exactly the same would be said of you.
Oh and the reason I have put “objective” in quotation marks every time I wrote it in this post is that you seem to be using it as some sort of catch-all word to show that you’re right and everyone else is wrong.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:30pm
post said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Apparently the dictionary is wrong guys. Objectivity no longer means to reach conclusions using facts and ignoring bias and opinion. KPM has spoken.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:32pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
There’s a question a little lower down the page you haven’t got round to answering RK.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:33pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
If you bothered to read you’ll see I have in fact answered it.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:38pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Didn’t see it, so is that a yes, no?
December 17th 2012 @ 1:43pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
The best def of objective in the instance is “unifluenced by emotion”.
Something that very few Wallabies supporters could claim.
“A bias towards fairness” wtf? How can you be bias and fair? Isnt that a contradiction in terms? To be fair does not mean to even things up through bias.
Anyway, many who want Deans to go are NOT objective. A few who do are.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:14pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Bias towards fairness is a concept that comes about by trying too hard to be “objective”.
Refer to the example I cited from J Howard’s government in the late 90s / early 2000s and the ABC (which is when I first encountered the notion that the news was about more than reporting the facts).
Jutsie is right that it is most recently and succinctly referred to HBO’s program The Newsroom (on Foxtel in Australia). The show’s creator gave the following quote when asked about it earlier in 2012:
“I don’t see the liberal bias—and I’m trying to—that I hear about,” he says. “What I do see is a bias toward fairness, a bias toward neutrality, a bias toward false equivalency. That if a Republican has lied, it’s important that we find a Democrat who’s lied and make them equal, whether they are or not.
“Most of us have been raised to believe that there are two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. And that’s simply not always the case. Sometimes there are five sides to a story, but sometimes there’s just one. Sometimes the truth doesn’t lie in the middle, it lies squarely on one side or the other.” But “you’ll never hear the word ‘lie’ on network news when something is plainly a lie.”
December 17th 2012 @ 10:31pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Kev, the guy making that comment is wrong and that is not gospil. He says something about getting 2 liars. That 2 different stories. Taking into account everything about the 1 liar and taking a balanced, unemotional perspective however , that is objective.
He also says that sometimes there is 5 sides to a story. Yeah no sh1t and the saying is not to be taken literally. Also you must take into account the 5 sides. There is NEVER 1 side to a story, ever.
To dismiss Robbies past, the scedule, the injuries, the loss of 3 captains, the form of key players, the must win nature of the year, the draw with NZ, the win % dispite the difficulties, last years 3 nats win, the Quade Cooper fiasco and many other things and say its all Robbies fault is not fair or objective and to take them into account is not bias towards fairness.
December 19th 2012 @ 7:07am
wannabprop said | December 19th 2012 @ 7:07am | Report comment
Smith is writing an OPINION piece here, just as Mark Ella also does for The Australian, Reporting is what Georgina Robinson does for the SMH. Steve Samuelson(sp?) (SMH) gave a clear explanation of this on another thread (regarding Campo’s complaints I think).
December 17th 2012 @ 9:11am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
what ever happened to journos reporting the details like they are supposed to without framing the narrative?
December 17th 2012 @ 9:20am
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
this has never, ever happened.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:46am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
It happens all over the world with objective journalists.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:53am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Sorry kpm but that’s incredibly naive. The only truly objective journalists are wire service reporters who put out facts and only facts the moment they happen. Every other news piece in the world on that same story will be slanted by journalistic bias based on the facts they stress to those they downplay, whose comments and reactions they choose to report and even which “experts” they choose to consult on the effect/meaning of events.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:00am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:00am | Report comment
That’s untrue RK, many are as neutral as lies within the compass of human possibility.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:10am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Truth and lies are moral ambiguities. There are simply facts. Everything else is commentary.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:50am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Sorry kpm and Jutsie but no – journalists are not supposed to report facts devoid of commentary. Journalists are often referred to as opinion makers for good reason, they are mostly far more informed and closer to the action than the general public and what they convery carries weight. Journalistic opinion isn’t a bad thing unless they try to pass themselves off as completely impartial.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:58am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:58am | Report comment
BS RK, you act like your an authority on everything. Where is your journalism degree? I studied media & communications for 4 years and I can tell you it is not the job of journos to report stories with framed by their own biases unless they specifically state that it is an opinion piece. Yes this rarely happens nowadays (hence my question) but that doesnt make it right! The job of a journo is to report the fact so we can form our own opinion instead of force-feeding us their own opinion in the hope that they steer the argument.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:01am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Junior journalists yes, senior ones no.
I guess since you know so much about this that you’re a widely respected senior journalist somewhere? Didn’t think so.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:06am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
your hubris blinds you to your own ignorance.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:07am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Jutsie it is certainly extremely difficult to disentangle what is opinion and unsubjective reporting in the writing of Smith on Deans.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:12am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
KPM i dont even have an issue with w. smith personally as generally I think he is a good journo and TBH the case of deans is not that big an issue for me in the grand scheme of things (its rugby after all) but this sort of attitude towards journalism in general (and particularly political journalism) really riles me up.
I find it funny that people like RK jump to w smith’s defence and his journalistic integrity but are the first to lambaste spiro for partaking in the same sort of biased journalism purely because he agrees with smith but disagrees with spiro.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:16am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
pots and kettles in that example jutsie. The difference is respecting the journalist, not what they publish (I haven’t even read the article in question).
December 17th 2012 @ 10:25am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
In this case someone like Smith has vast influence, far more than humble online pseudonyms.
So what he writes should be subject to criticism, positive or negative, in the same way that he and other rugby journalists are able to hold coaches and players to account.
A rugby journalist can sway a player or coach’s career, has a huge readership, and yet they are rarely held to the same scrutiny as those they write about.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:05am
allblackfan said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
I am a subeditor of almost 25 years experience here in Aust and overseas, and Jutsie is correct.
If a journalist runs a story critical of someone, he has to attribute it otherwise that is an opinion piece and should be identified as such. Journalists must ALSO be objective and balanced ie write on both sides of an argument without favouring one side.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:23am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Well the article in question isn’t tagged opinion so I guess it isn’t critical of Deans at all and kpm is jumping at shadows.
With all due deference to your years in the industry, while I agree with both you and Jutsie about what is supposed to happen, it is plainly evident that this is a long way from what actually happens.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:40pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
allblackfan. not all sides of an argument are equal. journalists do make decisions about what to leave out.
December 17th 2012 @ 3:15pm
allblackfan said | December 17th 2012 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
soapit, journaliists may not make that decision. Its subeditors like me who cut a journalists story. It could be for legal reasons, it could be a sub like me sees red and says that’s opinion and cuts it!
Journalists can be lazy when they write a story; they may run one side of the story then the other so when the sub has to cut a story, they start from the bottom. (Very slack, I prefer to cut as I go) which has the net effect of making a story seem unbalanced by the time its ready to be printed/published online.
And a story needs balance. It does not need to have equal amounts of space devoted to both sides (usually because one side doesn’t want to talk!) but it must have both sides. The old name for journalists was “reporters” because they were required to report the news, not become the news.
Hope this helps
December 17th 2012 @ 3:49pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
abf, im not really interested in the breakdown of how papers work but thanks for the effort.
my point is if news only reported things which can be guaranteed as fact then we’d only get the basic match report/scorecard. there is interpretation there (was that a good break or a poor tackle or both).
the vaccination debate is a classic example. both sides don’t really need to be reported equally. these days the same could be said of any issue, if you look hard enough at any “fact” you’ll be able to find somewhere a different side that disputes it. reporters/subeditors/whoever make a decision to leave that side out i assume by using their using their judgement
December 17th 2012 @ 5:37pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
Try reading Red Kev. The fact that he studied it for four years might mean he actually understands the various media and the history of the media.
Quite simply many newspapers throughout the world had a large number of objective investiagive journalists. Over time this was expensive and you could capture the attention of the public more easily with opinion pieces. Simply copy and paste a story from somewhere else write a few words and fill up the rest of the paper with ads. It’s a business and you don’t need to send a journalist on the road and days and weeks to get a story.
Watch Al Jazera, read Hunter S Thompson’s book on the Hells angels, with a view to learn. You can form your own judgements, but the information is put out there so you can draw your own conclusions. The alternative is let someone else think for you and spout back the same rhetoric.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:09pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
Chivas instead of automatically attacking anything I post you ought to actually read as well.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:43pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
Funnily enough RK, I read what you wrote and responded to your point about what constitutes sports journalism.
Anyway RK how can anyone help but read your comments, they are same ones repeated ad infinitum.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:38pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
who gets to decide whats fact jutsie? theres very little in this world that isnt open to some amount of dispute about whats true.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:43pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
And on that we agree, but some journalists strive to report the story as they see it unembelished (i.e. don’t add their own opinions). But your point is it is only one angle is a true one. If you didn’t see it or hear about it, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But I guess that is why you need to listen to more sides of the story… but without the hysteria and opinioins.
You know if you read an article in todays rags… like the Daily telegraph which is probably the worst, you could pick the facts out and have no more than 3-4 facts in a whole column. People want the colour, the abuse and the sarcasm, because well it’s more colourful. I mean there is a reason Alan Jonesis so popular. He’s a nasty, loud mouthed, bigot…. but guess what, that stuff sells.
I think this is another reason why literacy is dropping in Australia, because the content of the discussion could be more accurately called a rant than objective journalism.
December 18th 2012 @ 1:34am
Crazy Horse said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:34am | Report comment
Unless of course they are working for any of the Murdoch owned publications when that is exactly their job although the biases are Murdoch’s.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:59am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Ok, so RK you’re saying that it’s ok for Smith to make the dismissal of Deans as his ‘ultimate goal’ for which he should always be ‘fighting’, and that this is fine as a journalist as he doesn’t need to be impartial?
Just so I know.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
It is perfectly acceptable for senior journalists to work towards something for the betterment of a situation.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:23am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Just because u say so doesnt make it the case. Its against the journalistic code of ethics.
I’m guessing you have no issue with murdoch employees pushing a global warming sceptic argument or reinhardt taking over fairfax so she can push a pro-mining and anti mining tax/carbon tax agenda
December 17th 2012 @ 10:42am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
There is a difference between ownership influence of editorial content and journalistic opinion. Something you should know if you actually did an undergraduate degree in media and communications. The idea that journalism is objective is quite simply fallacious; what is critical is identifying bias and understanding it while reading or watching the “news”.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:47am
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Whether it is owners or senior journos it is still the same case of people using their influence to frame the argument to suit their own needs.
And taking it back to the original point that KPM made he wanst taling about smith writing an article about dean’s position which was biased towards him getting sacked, KMP was referring to smith mentioning dean’s position in every article he writes even if the main topic is not deans related. That is framing the argument.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:51am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:51am | Report comment
And as I pointed out originally – he did exactly the same thing regarding ARU governance for the past two years. Why didn’t you or kpm whinge then?
December 17th 2012 @ 12:34pm
p.Tah said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
It was actual JON pushing for the governance change. In his autobiography he wanted it when he joined the ARU. He got part of the way but it was too much too soon back in 1995/6. It wasn’t until the government threaten to pull funding that he had the driver to bring the final change with the Arbib report. Yes, Wayne Smith has been champion it as well. Who would have thought those two would agree!
December 17th 2012 @ 1:29pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
I think it just shows that Wayne Smith isn’t necessarily anti JON, anti Deans or anti NSW. He just wants what’s best for the code in this country and will call a spade a spade.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:28pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
The Internet is a marvelous thing.
We have a keyboard warrior pom sitting in his dark cold living room on the opposite side of the planet thinking he knows more about the inner workings of the ARU than one of the most respected and level headed Rugby journalists in Australia if not the World.
Only in the Internet Age!!
December 17th 2012 @ 1:44pm
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Jiggles,
Just a point of clarification, Uncle Argyle is an Aussie who lives in Brisbane. That’s assuming you’re referring to Uncle as the author.
Merely a clarification.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:56pm
stillmatic1 said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
think jggles was referring to wayne smith, sheek.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:03pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
I think Jiggles meant Wayne Smith is “one of the most respected and level headed Rugby journalists in Australia if not the World”. Not sure who he was insulting as “keyboard warrior pom sitting in his dark cold living room on the opposite side of the planet”. I thought Ben.S (who hasn’t posted in the thread) was the only guy actually in the UK who posted regularly on The Roar.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:12pm
stillmatic1 said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
i think jiggles is referring to KPM, red kev.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:46pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Ben S. has good views on rugby and I trust his judgement a lot. He doesn’t wade into these political rumour articles much and generally his assessment of Deans, if ever given, is based on the performances of the Wallabies. Definitely not who I was referring to Kev.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:56pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
And I have very little interest in political rumour articles, or generally the politics of the ARU which are as boring as they are fruitless: the results rarely work out well either.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:41pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Wayne smith is the jurno. KPM is the pom.
UA’s article is spot on from my mail too.
UA I think we may know the same people…
December 17th 2012 @ 2:47pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
Really? Not sure how you got to that: having lived somewhere and with some of the blood doesn’t change your nationality.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:30pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
I have just completed reading through this conversation. I agree with KPM and the reason is that the same as Alan Jones and other radio shock jocks, Wayne Smith to me is someone who likes to make loud extreme statements with bias. Quite simply it sells.
I read a book sometime back on the Itaq war written by a war correspondent. It didn’t take any side, but rather gave a detailed account of events leading up to, during and after the war. Hunter S Thompson is another investigative journalist who reports on facts, rather than adding in supposition and rumour. If they do they clearly identify it as such. As a result the reader can come to their own conclusions.
But people love hysteria and amongst all the yelling and screaming it is difficult to see the facts. Nobody is interested in them anyway. And. This doesn’t mean I am pro Deans. I don’t see it that way. I don’t belong to any specific group, but I am interested in the facts, but Journos are too lazy to do any real work. May as well write an opinion piece.
Speaking of laziness. I opened the sports pages in the Herald today… a few pages on cricket, league and soccer in the SMH. Where is all the journalism. Nothing to report… and that is the attitude and fickleness of many so called sporting fans and commentators in Australia and why the sport suffers in the toilet.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:48pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
“Hunter S Thompson is another investigative journalist who reports on facts, rather than adding in supposition and rumour.”
Say What??
That is the complete opposite of what Thompson did! Heck he is seen as the founding father of a style of writing where the author’s experience and opinion on the subject matter becomes the central thesis of the topic at hand. You need to read his articles about Nixon, NFL, horse racing and politics to see this. He was incredibly biased and opinionated, but at least he was honest about his own bias.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:57pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
Not everything though Jiggles, I didn’t see his opinion come through in the Hells Angels book. Yes he hated Nixon and i haven’t read that although I’m interested to. Nixon was a bad man and that was a particularly ugly time… I just finished reading Keith Richard’s version of events on the matter
. greaat read by the way if you haven’t read it.
December 17th 2012 @ 7:19pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 7:19pm | Report comment
It’s been a number of years since I read this book so my memory is a bit sketchy.
The book was written in the early 60′s when the motorcycle/outlaw culture just became prominent, with the general consensus of the time being that bikies were nothing but anarchic hoodlums. In my view, Thompson was somewhat sympathetic to their position and excused their behaviour, as he believed they existed in a society in which they could not fit. I got the feeling he was trying to blame American society as a whole for creating a culture that could marginalise a group of people and force them into this type of lifestyle. He was even sympathetic after they bashed him to an inch of his life. This fits very nicely with his general view of the broken American Dream, so therefore wouldn’t this be his bias in this book? The broken American Dream is a central thesis in most of this works and it is used to justify his positions, a lot. I have a problem with the notion of the broken American Dream because I don’t believe it is a tangible idea to begin with therefore cannot be broken.
Anyway this is a rugby blog so we should stick to that
December 17th 2012 @ 5:59pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
Anyway I will apologise if Hunter S was a bad example
, you still know what Iam driving at
December 17th 2012 @ 6:14pm
Jutsie said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
Lol hunter S the godfather of gonzo journalism, he usually made himself the subject matter of his articles, love the man!
Chivas have you seen fear and loathing in las vegas? bizarre but brilliant film.
But as jiggles says above at least hunter s never purported to be impartial and it was clear his pieces were opinion pieces.
I have no issue with a journo giving their opinion as long as they make it perfectly clear. It similar to the jones/laws cash for comments saga, its ok to advertise if u make it clear its a paid advert.
But yeah I feel bad for going down this path of argument, wayne smith is a good journo, I usually enjoy reading his pieces although this year I have found his constant pro qld/anti ARU theme a little tiring. Even harry a reds supporter agreed with me about this after smith’s reporting of QC turned down a french contract that would make him “one of the highest paid players on the planet”.
At the end of the day its just sport journalism and its not a big deal whether they are a little biased or not, I shouldnt have been so judgemental of smith.
My issue is more with alan jones’, michelle grattans, sky news etc of the world rather than the wayne smiths.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:49pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
You could probably use Spiro as an example, trying to pass his opinion as fact. Alan Jones, as Jutsie says is another prime example.
Smith makes it pretty clear why he holds the opinions he does and try’s to argue it logically. He has supported JON in a couple of things and is quick to compliment but he isn’t going to try and tell anyone a turd sandwich smell’s like roses, which cannot be said for most of the Australian rugby press.
December 17th 2012 @ 8:39am
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
UA – Once again a good article.
I agree coaches should be part of the review. But ONLY coaches who do not want the job now and did not apply for the job before. So Alan Jones has to be excluded.
McQueen and Dwyer would be good picks. Since they both were very successful intl coaches.
For the 3rd I would have 1 player out of the 3 to add balance and a players perspective.
I can only hope Deans is sacked.
Honestly the finances are so poor they cannot afford to sack him unless the new coach agrees to work for virtually nothing the first year.
December 17th 2012 @ 8:54am
Rickety Knees said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Good post Uncle – we have 2 world cup winning coaches. For me it would be a three man review committee – Dwyer, McQueen and the new CEO.
Governance at the ARU is still murky, there is still an air of “Fort Fumble” about it. The new CEO has much to do.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:13am
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Ill be blunt: no matter what constitutional changes were made at the ARU, there is no way the NSWRU will let Deans go as coach until they can put up a NSW-candidate who can win it without it looking like 1996 all over again.
If that means dragging down Australian rugby, well, we had to destroy the village to save it, as the saying goes.
Really, is that not clear to everyone by now?
December 17th 2012 @ 1:34pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
It’s rather clear FOS, especially with all this nonsense starting lately that Cheika is now a candidate for the top job.
Hopefully though they aren’t so daft as to think that Link is actually a Queenslander. He is from Victoria, and played for Randwick, NSW and Australia. He’d still probably be the coach of NSW if the board wasn’t so silly as to actually listen to Phil Waugh.
Mind you because he has had more success with the Reds I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re willing to chop off their nose to spite their face.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:01pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
You mean like Ewen McKenzie. Becuz he is from Vic via NSW unlike all three of the assitant coaches the Wallabies have at the mo who are all from QLD. They support a coach from NZ so Im sorry FOS but “objective” doesnt apply to you.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:09pm
Hightackle said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Also does it make you the best candidate if your team is winning. Im 100% sure it does not. If a great coach coaches a crap team, that team doesnt become champions. Also if a great team gets coached by an ave coach, that team does not always lose.
Judging a coach on his team winning is not the best way.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:42pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
coaches of losing teams isnt a great place to start looking though.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:14am
Skip said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Uncle,
Sounds like dispicable mud racking and grubby journalism. Name a source, quote some facts or shut up.
Perhaps you could go and work with Danny Wiiedler.
If there is some truth in what you say your “credible confidential source” should resign his position immediatley or perhaps you betrayed his trust.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:54am
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Skip,
By all means disagree with Uncle, but there’s no reason to take pot shots. It’s a tough line for journalists, or members of the public, to walk sometimes. They must protect their sources at times, otherwise they’ll never get the scoops.
I have communicated with Uncle elsewhere & I know his background. Consequently, I know he has potential access to contacts high in rugby. He’s not obliged to cite his sources just to make you happy. You’ll have to take it on trust. Or not.
That’s your prerogative. But we should remain respectful in our disagreement.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:58am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Well said sheek, worth noting too UA isn’t a journalist so there’s no point holding him to that standard – he’s simply a community member sharing something he knows without breaking the confidence of his associate/friend.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Why not take potshots sheek? How many potshots does Robbie Deans receive here on a daily basis? Why shouldn’t one of his army of critics receive one?
December 17th 2012 @ 10:08am
Kane said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
If you spent less time on here talking yourself up and more time actually coaching the Walabies maybe they would be winning more games Robbie
December 17th 2012 @ 10:24am
Sage said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Ha !!
December 17th 2012 @ 9:15am
biltongbek said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Few things come to mind, how did Deans that was so successful at the Crusaders become such a poor coach all of a sudden, it just doesn’t make any sense to me, has he all of a sudden become a coach who has no tactical nous and no man management skills?
It will be premature to thnk Jake White will be good for OZ rugby. Yes he has skills in building a squad and he has some technical knoledge, and yes he did decently at the Brumbies. But considering the OZ conference struggled last year it wasn’t all that difficult to beat the Rebels, Waratahs and Force.
Consider the fact that thr Reds beat them home and away with an injury ridden squad.
I am not saying JW is no a good coach, but it will be a knee jerk reaction to consider him.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:59am
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
biltongbek,
Deans never suddenly became a bad coach.
I believe it’s an issue of communication & perhaps culture, even though Aussies & Kiwis are supposed to be so close, there are still deifferences, especially in rugby philosophy. Deans wasn’t able to confer his message to the Wallabies in the same way he might have at the Crusaders.
There’s also the upgrade from super rugby to national team. Some players don’t handle the transfer & perhaps some coaches don’t either. Finally, Deans wasn’t blessed with an enormously talented Wallabies’ pool, contrary to what some Aussie fans might think.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:40am
Markus said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
I think the change of environment/culture definitely highlighted some shortcomings in his coaching, especially player management, that were not exposed so much during his Crusaders tenure.
At provincial level you are involved with the players day in day out, so are able to establish your style more smoothly than when combining players from multiple provinces.
Canterbury in particular emphasise developing their junior players, which would mean much less clash of personalities/egos than at Test level, or even at other provinces. Deans being a well established former player for Canterbury himself would have made the task easier too.
Had he ended up with the head coaching role at Auckland, for example, I believe he may have had similar issues.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:30am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:30am | Report comment
sheek most cannot accept the idea of a non-Australian coaching Australia. This is behind much of the criticism of Deans, the fairness of it, and the obsessive nature of the anti-Deans lobby. Even those who would like to be reasonable are swept away by the tide when most around them are so passionate. Staying fair is tough, and makes the fair man a target as passionately assailed as Deans.
Of course, if an Australian ever coached New Zealand there would be 10 times the negative reaction and unfair criticism.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:10pm
zhenry said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
The Australian owned New Zealand media be responsible for continual attacks on an Australian coach? Regardles that he might be coaching the ABs. Look at the evidence that is continually before you. No way Mate.
An Australian coach coaching the ABs is far fetched at the moment, however give Tew more time to execute his black and white economics and before long Australians will own NZ teams, the NPC will be largely dismantled and the AB history and knowledge diseminated. Thats my feeling, hope I am wrong.
December 17th 2012 @ 4:07pm
jeznez said | December 17th 2012 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Aussie McLean is still in there isn’t he? I guess just being an assistant he gets to skate cleanly by.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:02pm
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
KPM,
I do agree that initially Deans background had a lot to do with the resentment from some Aussier fans. But I also now believe the debate has moved beyong Deans being a Kiwi.
Some might still tag that line, but the overall view now is that it’s no longer working, & we need to try something different.
Something different might not turn out to be any better, but the time has come to recognise a need for change.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:14pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
sheek is it any suprise, if most rugby followers don’t want a non-Australian coaching Australia, that the ‘overall view’ is that he’s the wrong man for the job now?
Holding this position (tha a non-Australian shouldn’t coaching Australia) surely influences a supporter’s opinion so strongly that they can hardly be very fair? Not only that, but if most hold this opinion, surely it influences even those who don’t?
If you wish to look lower down the page I have a written a reply to your post there too.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:32pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
That is completely incorrect.
You cannot say that because someone holds an opinion it influences everything else. For example, approximately 75% of people surveyed will respond that they favour punishing litterbugs. However if you ask them how strongly they feel about it and if that issue will influence their opinion or vote the number will be in single digits.
Thinking that a non-Australian should not coach the Wallabies does not preclude fair and reasonable evaluation and discussion.
Just because you cannot separate your opinion from the debate doesn’t mean that the rest of us can’t.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:40pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
I would say that holding a negative position on someone’s appointment will for the vast majority of people influence their subsequent opinions of a coach’s performance, even if it doesn’t in your case.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:25pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
Sheek that is a really interesting comment and I tend to agree. There has been a bit of ego in this argument regarding we can’t have a kiwi as our coach. we are the best and know what we are doing et al. And fed by some fairly vocal protaganists like campese, Alan jones to name a couple. I also think this has played into the minds of some roarers too.
But putting that aside. I think your earlier comment about cultural differences is more interesting. There are large differences between Australia and New Zealand. On the surface we all like a beer and a good laugh. we love the outdoors and giving each other a ribbing, are proud of our history and our togetherness over the years. But there is too a real difference in rugby in NZ and Australia. In NZ it’s is part of the fabric of the every town and city. There are floats and parades when the Ranfurly Shield is on, you go and watch your mates play and go and watch netball, because you have a girlfriend and your mates sometimes come along and the same in reverse. It’s played in every school, everyone has an opinion… there is no elitism.
In Australia it is quite different. It seems winning is more about appealing to ego and dollars. It’s played in a handful of schools. You have a large number of egotistical outspoken people in the game, who show no humility or humbleness. I was reading how Australia should join forces with NZ to create another tier in rugby. I know it was a ridiculous comment supported by a few, but it highlights how much of a shambles the game is in, that after 20 odd years of professionalism, Australia is still looking for hand-outs to establish the local competition.
But until Australia creates and follows an internal competition, I think the rugby fraternity is doomed to be a bunch of loud, grizzly kids. I think Australia has theability in all areas of the game, but there is no groundswell of people excited and wanting to build Australian rugby. All the recent commentary is on QC and RD’s.
If any of this offends, trust me it is not meant to. It is just frustrating to watch the game limp along… and I’m pretty sure it didn’t start and it won’t end when RD’s tenure is over. If you just look at how political Link is, in his comments re QC, it highlights how dysfunctional things are. Until there is cohesion between grass-roots / SR / Wallabies, how can the fans feel like they are a part of it. They are outsiders…
I think it was said bestin the great debate… Rugby league is a simple game played by simple people for simple people… the response was Rugby is a complex game, played by wankers for wankers… I think it was Laurie Daley, but it is an interesting comment on the perception of the game in Australia.
December 18th 2012 @ 3:34am
Malo said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:34am | Report comment
Great points totally agree, a new coach wont be like a messiah and suddenly we will just win the world cup but yeah time for a change. I mean I think if he did coach the ABs they would be just as good with him because they have a fantastic rugby culture and there players are on the same page and they get combinations in their domestic competitions.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:43am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:43am | Report comment
biltong don’t bring any fairness into this anti-Deans mania: remember the entire reason behind such ferocious, obsessive criticism is that he is not Australian.
Jake White would suffer the same fate when it became apparent that no magician can turn a bad player pool from lead to gold.
This is Ewen Mckenzie’s trump card, and none could be more powerful.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:56am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
You make is sound like installing an Australian is a bad thing. Do SA, NZ, England or France use foreign coaches? No, only second tier nations like Japan, Wales, and Scotland do. The question is to which echelon do the Wallabies belong? Under Deans sadly their play makes them look closer to the latter than the former.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
So RK are you saying that a non-Australian shouldn’t coach Australia?
December 17th 2012 @ 10:28am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
I really like that Laurie Fisher came out saying the Wallabies coach should be an Australian.
I am saying kpm if you want to play for or coach Australia you should become Australian. This is a nation of immigrants, you don’t have to be born here, but you should have to commit to the country. Sport is a nationalistic/jingoistic/patriotic pursuit, if you can’t call on that when in national colours you’re just an imposter.
I don’t think this about all sports – mainly because I don’t care about all sports.
In sports where a nation is strong, there is no need to import someone, nor is there any logic to it as all you are doing is fostering a weakness where you are strong (cricket and rugby union have gone this route when they should be looking to “buy Australian” like swimming or netball), in sports where you are weak it is sensible to import expertise to help you (think soccer in Australia or rugby league in New Zealand).
Now it is possible that Deans was the right call in 2007 – I didn’t follow the situation that closely, maybe Australian rugby was that weak – but what I do know is that the process of Deans’ appointment was a disgrace – the ARU interviewed 6 candidates (none of them Robbie Deans), then heard the rumour that Deans might be available so stalled until the NZRU made their decision and then signed Deans the next day.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:20am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Ok RK, firstly a coach could not ‘become’ Australian in the time he coaches the national team as it isn’t long enough to qualify for citizenship.
But a straight answer, Laurie Fisher may not think a non-Australian should coach the Wallabies, do you?
December 17th 2012 @ 11:24am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
You become Australian BEFORE becoming national coach kpm – I don’t care how long it takes.
I agree with Fisher. The Wallabies coach should be an Australian. The coach of the Australian cricket team should also be an Australian. I consider the fact that neither is at the moment to be a national disgrace to be perfectly honest.
HOWEVER
And this is the important part because you’ll use my answer to make a sweeping dismissive statement about witch-hunts. My opinion notwithstanding, Deans has not performed to the levels expected of him when installed as Wallaby coach, had his contract unfairly/mistakenly extended and should be fired. Let me say it again – Deans should be fired not because of his nationality, but because he isn’t doing the job well.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:26am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Fine, but answer the question: do you think a non-Australian should coach the Wallabies?
December 17th 2012 @ 4:32pm
jeznez said | December 17th 2012 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
KP – he answered you:
“I agree with Fisher. The Wallabies coach should be an Australian.”
December 17th 2012 @ 5:29pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
To be fair to kpm, that was an edit of mine jeznez
December 17th 2012 @ 10:40am
nickoldschool said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
RK, maybe the reason why the countries you mentioned (SA, NZ, France and England) are using home grown coaches is simply because they are the best in the business for this job in their respective countries full stop. Guys like Cheika, Coter, Isaac and your very own McKenzie have coached some of their biggest clubs there and knowing how parochial these towns are, it went/ is going pretty well. I don’t think they would have a problem hiring a kiwi, Aussie etc if they thought the guy was THE one who could bring a rwc on their shores.
To me the real issue is that there is no Aussie coach right now which has the backing of players, formers coaches, the ARU etc. that no one in Oz seems to have the credentials and shoulders to coach the wallabies is the main problem IMO. I am not a pro Deans at all but just have no idea who I would like to see instead (I mean Aussie born coach).
December 17th 2012 @ 10:44am
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:44am | Report comment
I would have no issue if the Waratahs hired Deans as a Super Rugby coach (in fact I would consider it a marriage of mediocrity born in heaven).
At the moment the bar is pretty low “better than Deans” is not a big stumbling block for a coach right now. Personally I like McKenzie and Fisher and Meehan.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:03am
nickoldschool said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Fair call RK, agree that coaching a national side is different. I think preference should be given to home grown coaches, with some exceptions to the rule if there is clearly no one suited to the job. For example, the French In me would struggle to accept an Anglo leading France, for cultural and linguistic reasons. As a neo-aussie now, i had no problem with Deans coming a few years ago and dont think his failure is due to the fact he is a kiwi. Bit contradictory but it’s how I felt.
Although I would not strongly support any guys you mention I wouldn’t mind any of them either as it’s true that the RD tenure has been far from successful. But in mind that would be more a ‘anyone but Deans’ choice rather than a ‘this guy is the best one on the market full stop’.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:50pm
RedsNut said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
I maybe on my own, but I don’t care what nation the WBs coach comes from – as long as he is the best one available.
IMO, it’s crap that the WB coach should ALWAYS be an Aussie, be it born or naturalised.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:47pm
sittingbison said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
RK keep your dirty rotten mitts off Meehan!! We’ve only just got him at Force, and are looking forward to his backs play and attacking stratagems
December 17th 2012 @ 11:01am
Sage said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:01am | Report comment
I’ve requested you nicely before KPM but you won’t refrain. I happen to agree that R Deans should go and it is not a “mania” nor because he’s not Australian. I don’t appreciate your dismissive, sweeping and incorrect generalisations.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:25am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Sage a question then: do you think a non-Australian should be coach of the Wallabies?
December 17th 2012 @ 11:28am
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:28am | Report comment
I have no issue with a non-aussie being Wallabies coach but want to see Deans go since he is doing a poor job.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:49pm
sittingbison said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Correct. I think this “un-Australian” talk is BS, and a smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real issue, that he is a failure as Wallaby coach in every department – strategy, tactics, selections, style.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:59pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Ok sittingbison, then answer the question posed to Sage: do you think a non-Australian should be coach of the Wallabies?
December 17th 2012 @ 3:02pm
sittingbison said | December 17th 2012 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
KPM I don’t give a tinkers cuss what nationality the coach of ANY team is. As I said, most of this is nonsense is pure deflection and distraction from his actual flaws and lack of performance. Its easy to say that people wanting him gone are “haters” because he is a Kiwi, but not so easy when actually looking at and analysing his performance, and the way the Wallabies are playing.
December 17th 2012 @ 3:06pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
sittingbison no deflection at all. If you’re uninfluenced then your criticisms are fair. Many however freely admit the opposite, and they have loud voices.
December 18th 2012 @ 4:00pm
Handles said | December 18th 2012 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Finally some common sense. Every time I post I get accuse of being anti-Deans because of some long held bias. I thought he was a great appointment, but I was wrong. I believe I was wrong because, after watching the last 18 months of the Wallabies, I don’t see a team that is developing, and I don’t see a team that is entertaining, and I don’t (often) see a team that is capable of beating NZ, SAf and England.
December 18th 2012 @ 4:05pm
mark said | December 18th 2012 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
and you think it all comes down to the coach?
nothing to do with the fact our super xv teams are struggling? ie not a great deal of talent depth?
December 17th 2012 @ 1:25pm
Justin2 said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Best coach should be the man, Deans was thought to be that for the team but clearly he isnt. I would think that having an affinity with the nation you are coaching is a bonus though.
Your repeated rubbish generalisations about racism is based on your own defensive thoughts of Deans, not on fact.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:33pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Justin please tell me where I refer in any way to race? Nationality and race are not the same thing.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:41pm
Justin2 said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
You are right KPM – the word I should have used was xenophobia.
The reality is you are accusing people of something that is completely unfounded and a very cheap argument to somehow take the high ground…
December 17th 2012 @ 1:45pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
I’m not accusing them of xenophobia Justin.
I’m saying that if they don’t want a non-Australian coaching the Wallabies, then that surely must influence their criticism of him.
Someone who was happy with a non-Australian coaching the Wallabies, but has decided Deans is doing badly is perfectly fair.
But it’s very hard to believe that someone who at the outset dislikes the idea of a non-Australian coaching the Wallabies would be uninfluenced by this position and completely fair in their criticism.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:10pm
stillmatic1 said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
kpm, i havent seen too many people on here rabbit on about how deans is a kiwi, and therefore should be sacked. it seems that it is you who brings it up as a way to dismiss their arguments.
many will say that it is only logical that an australian should coach a national team, just as it makes sense that the players should also have an affinity for the nation that they play for. that is pretty basic and simply a tenet of humanity at large. is this not our very nature?
what is sport without rivalry?
there will be many factors that influence how people view deans, and one may be that he is from one of australia’s biggest rivals, so whats the problem with that? they might not like the way he dresses, talks, or brushes his teeth, or, his poor record, his lack of communication, poor level of game management. everything will be thrown into the pot to help people form an opinion, all we can hope for is that people are reasonable with their arguments.
unless a poster comes out and strictly says that the reason they dont like deans is that he is a kiwi, then im afraid (as justin2 says), you cant assume that people dislike deans because he is a kiwi. the issue is always propagated by you, so who is biased?
December 17th 2012 @ 2:51pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
yep kpm seeing youre the one making the accusations how about you show the evidence rather than demanding that every single person who thinks deans should go state that its not because he’s a kiwi
December 17th 2012 @ 2:59pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
I’m perfectly happy soapit so long as it’s clear what the position of a critic is and therefore whether they are subject to its influence in making their criticisms.
December 17th 2012 @ 3:38pm
soapit` said | December 17th 2012 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
nah, you’re just trying to allocate a vast minority and unreasonable motive of why people are against deans to the whole group to distract from and purposefully ignore the majority valid and sensible reasons.
its probably because you’ve found it difficult to keep up the pro deans end when sticking to an accurate logical discussion
December 17th 2012 @ 6:37pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
Personally I am probably more pro Deans at least until the end of the Lion’s tour, then Australia can take control of their beloved Wallabies. I also don’t think Australian’s are racist, but I do think there are Australians that hate being told what to do by some outsider, especially a kiwi (who is like your younger brother).
The reason is I think the team came through this year together and should have a chance to reunite for the Lion’s tour. After that there isn’t much on and a bit of disruption changing coaches won’t be so damaging, because the next big tournament is the RWC.
I also think the rhetoric that get’s trotted out has now been done to death. unless there is something fresh, why do we keep repeating it. I actually would normally complain about an article that just looks to bring up the same old tired discussion, but UA you gave it a bit of a fresh coat of paint…. but please can we come up with something with more meat on the bones. But top marks for at least going to effort of getting some facts. Thanks.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:33pm
Sage said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
If they are the best candidate of course not. Would be a self defeating argument if I felt otherwise KPM. Why do you think it’s been so annoying being accused of zenophobia by you. I was happy with his apointment. I gave him a huge amount of support and respect. He still has my respect but not my support. He is not the man for the job anymore and it has nothing to do with his Nationality. My feelings mirror a lot of Uncle’s comments. This – “there were senior elements of the playing group who liked Deans as a person but not his coaching methods” and this – Deans has a total lack of man management skills and failed to develop a genuine homogenous group culture” are very similar to opinions I have put on here before. That doesn’t make me a zenophobe or a Deans hater. Both of which you have used to debase opinions contray to yours. Hence my comment. And as you know, it isn’t the first time.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:02am
kingplaymaker said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:02am | Report comment
I didn’t say anything of the kind. I just asked you a question, which in any case wouldn’t mean Zenophobia as you call it, which is presumably a Buddhist version of the normal kind.
December 18th 2012 @ 10:01am
Sage said | December 18th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
KPM perhaps you didn’t use the specific word in this thread but you have elsewhere. Stating “remember the entire reason behind such ferocious, obsessive criticism is that he is not Australian” = reasoning based on a dislike of people from other countries = xenophobia. It appears your memory is selective and short but your spell check is working just fine.
R Deans does garble like he’s in a Zen state at times so perhaps it’s more correct than you think.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:27am
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
that is unfair KPM.
I have now formed the opinion, after what I considered detailed and balanced analysis that Deans should go.
I used to be of the opposite view that he was doing a good / reasonable job.
I am not r_a_c_i_s_t. I am not against Deans because he is not an aussie.
I would not be against White because he is south african but because he has more to prove ie can he coach teams to be adventerous / expansive and not forward oriented.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:32am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Great PeterK, it’s very good if you criticise Deans with no bias whatever due to his nationality (not race I point out).
But do you think the majority of Deans’ critics are happy with a non-Australian coaching Australia? Many freely admit they don’t want one (even John Connolly and Laurie Fisher said the coach shouldn’t be non-Australian), and how can this not influence their criticism consciously or unconsciously?
December 17th 2012 @ 11:46am
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:46am | Report comment
good point KPM.
Yes it is hard to believe people are being fair when they have an agenda predetermined that a non-australian should not be the coach. Of course they will emphasise the negative and stay silent on the positive.
People see what they want to see. If they already did not want him they will focus on that and criticise without balanced thought.
However KPM you could evaluate Deans fairly and also come to the conclusion that the cultural differences are part of the issue, that Deans was unable to make the transition.
I would not be against a foreigner coaching the Wallabies but I would recognise that it would be a harder transition for them in terms of culture but also easier in that they do not owe anything to provincial unions who made their succession successful.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:09pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
PeterK I think the further complication is that not only do the critics of Deans who are against a non-Australian coaching the Wallabies slant their criticism unfairly, but those who would be quite fair and are not against a non-Australian coaching are swept up by the fanfare of fierce criticism piping on all sides against Deans.
It’s very hard to remain fair when you’re surrounded by a whirling mass of loud voices giving an entirely negative picture.
This doesn’t just apply to rugby of course but to much of life. Staying independent-minded when most around you think one thing is very hard, and even if you try it’s almost impossible to prevent the endless strains of criticism seep into your mind and take over.
I could even give my own criticisms of Deans here in general, but it would be pointless as they presuppose a fair assessement of the situation he’s in (i.e. with weak players compared to NZ and SA), and that situation would be denied by those who only want to see the negative.
Criticising Deans is fine, but sadly I feel that little of the criticism or the motivation for it is fair. With exceptions of course.
Whatever happens in the end he has given a good example that coaching a different country may not be worth the candle.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:18pm
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
I also did not want a non-Queenslander coaching the reds, after the Eddie Jones fiasco. I was quite disheartened by Link’s initial appointment.
The difference is – and for a team I care far more about – that McKenzie actually delivered results. Deans did not. McKenzie won me over. Deans did not.
Also, I do think – that for a national sporting team – a coach of the same nationality is a good idea. Thats not a hard and fast rule, but one you need a good reason to deviate from. Otherwise, we might as well all start up a transnational rugby tournament with all worldwide players going in a randomiser, followed by a draft, with a salary cap, and the goal an equal competition for a bunch of “teams” no one cares about at all.
December 17th 2012 @ 12:32pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
So fos, in summary, you’re against a non-Australian coaching Australia?
December 17th 2012 @ 1:04pm
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
I always was – but probably better than another New South Welshman, was my rationalisation – but as I said – if you had actually bothered to read what I wrote, rather than try for a gotcha line – if Deans had produced results, I would admit I was wrong and accept it – like with Link at the Reds.
I really dont know what you are trying to achieve here. Go watch some more videos of Timani falling down and giving away possession.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:11pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
I can’t see how you can write fairly about the issue if you’re against his being non-Australian in the first place, unless you concede that this influences your criticism.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:37pm
post said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Nationality has nothing to do with this absurd argument about deans. When you’re one of the strongest nations in the world there’s no reason to look overseas for coaches. A non-American usa basketball coach would be pointless, Brazil always uses brazilians for soccer coaches, same with England, etc.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:41pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
So post, you don’t think a non-Australian should coach Australia either?
December 17th 2012 @ 5:14pm
formeropenside said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:14pm | Report comment
Ah KPM, if only we were as wonderfully free of bias, so we could all agree with you, just like all right-thinking people should.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:58pm
post said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:58pm | Report comment
Kpm, I’m assuming you’re being deliberately obtuse. I’ll put it simple terms since you’re acting this way. I personally don’t care what nationality the head coach is as long as he does a good job. However, it seems superfluous for a country that is so strong in a sport to look for a foreigner unless there is somehow a serious glut in talented coaches.
It might be hard for you to accept, but some people disagree with you on Deans because they think he is doing a bad job. That we are all somehow delusional or being influenced by preconceived notions is just absurd and sounds like your ego looking for reasons that we must all be crazy to dare disagree with you.
December 17th 2012 @ 9:48am
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Good morning Uncle,
I’m willing to hold my fire on Michael Hawker. However, as a general observation I agree Australian rugby is in need of some very strong & astute leadership going forward. I’m sure we all hope Hawker will be that man.
The Deans saga is becoming unfortunate.
I was one of those who supported the appointment of Deans at the start. Based on evidence available at the time, he was the best candidate. I’m not a clairvoyant.
I also supported his right to see out his four year contract as I felt he was doing a reasonable job under extremely difficult circiumstances. But even I could see the tenure of his appointment had been less than desirable & it was time for a change.
Deans reappointment goes back to O’Neill’s ego, I reckon. This was O’Neill’s way of saying “I’m always right & just to prove it, I’m reappointing Deans.”
As Kenny Rogers sang, “you gotta know when to hold ‘em & know when to fold ‘em.” It was time to fold Deans’ cards after 2011.
A good boss knows how to make a right decision. A good boss also knows when his original decision is no longer right. He then cuts his losses.
Deans did the best he could at the time with the resources available, but it’s time for Australian rugby to move forward, with another head coach bringing fresh ideas.
December 17th 2012 @ 10:05am
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Unfortunately I don’t have faith in the substance of your criticism sheek.
On the one hand you bemoan the limited playing resources available in Australian rugby, and analyse the structual flaws causing this, and on the other you expect the national coach to turn water into wine and make this limited playing pool beat stronger ones regularly, and say he should be fired if this fails to happen.
The two positions do not add up.
December 17th 2012 @ 1:11pm
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
KPM,
There was a time not so long ago when I railed against those demanding change for change’s sake. I have no axe to grind with Deans. I still admire him as a coach & as a person.
I have never expected miracles from the head coach, so I don’t know where you got that from.
KPM, it’s unfortunate, but it’s just not working any more with Deans.
You gotta know when to fold ‘em…..
December 17th 2012 @ 1:20pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Ok sheek, just look at the case of the Australia midfield last year. Pat Mccabe and Anthony Faiingaa in Australia. Nonu, Smith, SBW, Kahui, Fruean, Mcalister (not to mention others) in New Zealand.
With that difference in the player pool, how can you expect Deans to beat New Zealand.
You point out regularly how the weak domestic structure in the face of ferocious competition from what has to be called the dominant NRL and AFL has left Australia weak in many ways, not least its player pool. But yet you want the national coach to beat a nation with a far superior player pool somehow.
That doesn’t work. Either there is a strong player pool and the coach can be expected to beat opposition drawing from a strong player pool, or there is a weak one and the coach can’t be expected to do it.
Getting a team with Mccabe/Faiingaa in the centres to beat a team with Nonu/Smith/SBW/Kahui/Fruean/Mcalister to choose from would be beyond a miracle.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:25pm
sheek said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
KPM,
You would also know I am a strident critic of Australian rugby’s domestic structures. I honestly believe our systems are setup to make us fail more often than we are successful.
No ARC & no integrated secondary schoolboys comps are just two examples of the structural problems we face.
I’ve also argued that while we produce many great individual Wallabies we rarely produce great teams. It comes back to our structures, they’re archaic.
In this context, every Wallabies coach will struggle because of the system, unless they’re lucky enough to get a “golden generation” during their tenure.
However, in saying all of the above, some coaches can work the system to their advantage & overcome the natural impediments holding back Australian rugby.
Among my friends, the only context of Deans being a Kiwi is that there might be a communication/cultural problem. Otherwise, the overwhelming sentiment is that it just ain’t working, so we might try something else.
The new coach will still have to deal with the ‘system’, but at least he offers a new & fresh perspective.
December 17th 2012 @ 2:37pm
kingplaymaker said | December 17th 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Well sheek I’m sure we both have much to ponder, but I think you’ll find that many are not happy with a non-Australian coaching the team and that this influences the way they see him, even if you have an especially enlightened group of friends. Regarding performance I would say the playing pool has diminshed considerably in the last decade so whereas it was just about ok back then, it plummetted to an abyss during this period, doubtless because of the weak structures mentioned and the strong structures of its rivals. So regarding Deans’ performance, as it’s near Christmas I’ll remember the question too when the miracles are recalled…
December 17th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Chivas said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
Two quick things.
One: 100% on the archaic structures in Australia. Until this get’s resolved Australian rugby will continue to struggle. Build something, kids, parents, friends and family know about, understand and want to get involved with. Do it with Australian’s. Do it with an Australian competition, asutralian players, australian coaches, autrsalian refs and be excited.
Two: I think the timing is important to get a new coach. Give him a chance to succeed, by starting him after the Lion’s tour. Don’t bring him in and give him an excuse to lose. Give him a fit squad. And give him support. Without these you are just playing to the fans desire to go on these witch hunts.
December 17th 2012 @ 3:25pm
Hoy said | December 17th 2012 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
KPM, Deans selected that centre pairing didn’t he?
He had no real reason to select Pat McCabe over Giteau at 12? Giteau at 10 was no good, but I think he offered some expereince at 12 surely? But he was cut.
As for Faingaa, that was another selection, probably due to his defensive nature during last year.
Riddle me this, how about a centre pairing of Giteau AAC? Why wasn’t that tried? From memory, we had AAC at fullback aganst the All Blacks in the Semi. Why didn’t we put JOC at fullback, and switch a winger? Or bring a fullback in? There were heaps of options but DEANS CHOSE two pretty defensive and uncreative centres. He selected them. There were other options, so lets not cry poor and ask how could he beat the All Blacks with those centres. Reap what you sow.
December 17th 2012 @ 4:30pm
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
exactly.
Also he retained McCabe after the RWC even though it was a failure and would not give Taps a chance.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:05pm
mark said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
no he gave taps his debut on the sprig tour 2011 despite that taps had been injured for most of 2011
December 17th 2012 @ 5:22pm
PeterK said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
mark – Taps WAS available. He played for the reds in the last couple of games.
Taps ONLY was given a chance when McCabe was injured. So out of CHOICE Deans persisted with the limited McCabe , with the full knowledge using McCabe at 12 was not effective.
Nearly all of Deans “good” calls on selection have been due to injury of his preferred players. Surprise surprise more fans and media get it right long before Deans.
December 17th 2012 @ 5:24pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:24pm | Report comment
No Taps wasn’t injured at all during 2011, he played both of the Reds finals matches and the Australian Barbarians match right before the RWC where he made Rob Horne look good by setting him up into gaps about half a dozen times.
He was injured for about half of the 2012 season but was fit and playing rugby by the time the finals rolled around (indeed he played far more rugby than many other players did before being thrust into tests by Deans).
December 17th 2012 @ 5:48pm
mark said | December 17th 2012 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
No he was injured and unavailable for the tri nations series in 2011 and made his come back in a 2nd xv match against canada before the rwc. He was taken on the spring tour and made his debut. He got injured this year again and was brought straight back into the set up. Considering you blokes are always whinging about players not coming straight back into the wallaby set up without first proving themselves you see hell bent on disregarding that he did this with taupai….. ie savaging deans regardless.
damned when he does, damned when he doesn’t
December 17th 2012 @ 6:06pm
Red Kev said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
You need to get your facts right mark – for the second time, Tapuai wasn’t injured and unavailable, he wasn’t even considered for the 2011 Tri-Nations. He played for Sunnybank in the 2011 Queensland Premier Rugby final.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:25pm
mark said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
there was talk of him being brought in and he was injured.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
No he wasn’t he was fit, mark. again you are making false assertions without checking your facts.
He toar it up for Sunnybank.
December 17th 2012 @ 6:56pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 6:56pm | Report comment
tore*
December 17th 2012 @ 7:11pm
soapit said | December 17th 2012 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
had a pretty good game for australia A around that time from memory as well
December 17th 2012 @ 7:57pm
mark said | December 17th 2012 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
tapuia certainly batteled with injuries in 2011 and 2012. but i think we are getting off topic.
the statement was made that Tapuia was ignored by Deans when in fcat Deans picked him to go on the spring tour with very little rugby under his belt and gave him his test debut.
December 17th 2012 @ 8:28pm
Jiggles said | December 17th 2012 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
He was injured for 1 game at the start of the 2011 and played the entire back end of the season then went straight into club rugby at 12. He was only picked on that 2011 end of year UK junket because McCabe was injured.
He was completely injury free for that time and playing for Sunnybank.
McCabe spent most of the 2011 season on the bench or at Fullback, then 3 games at 12 in an underperforming Brumbies team. Deans then picks him straight into 12 at Test level, despite not playing their most of the year, and playing in a poor team. How Deans arrived at McCabe as the solution to inside centre is one of the most bizarre occurrences of his tenure.
It was a completely poor decision by Deans, and it has been compounded by the fact that Tapaui has only seen action when McCabe has been injured again.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:33am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:33am | Report comment
And taps wasn’t brought straight back into the set up either. Unlike others he waited at least 4-6 weeks playing football. I don’t have a problem with that except Deans has been inconsistent in this area, where other players, not in Taps class are rushed back in.
December 17th 2012 @ 11:39am
Jim Boyce said | December 17th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Sheek – This is an interesting contribution by Uncle Argyle and yourself but the organisation of the ARU as opposed to its Board is unclear. I have always considered the position of Nucifora is a worry and also the position of the High Performance Unit. The history of the ARU organisation structure and the position of the Wallaby Coach within it could occupy a book. You are right about the ego of O’Neill. Professional sport and its management in Australia has been a saga. The are many who still support that quip from Shane Wayne that the coach is something in which you drive to the game. The composition of that panel is also curious in that Brett Robinson and Eddie Jones had a very uneasy relationship. A book could be written about Gregan and Nucifora. As for Eales, his personality and skill made him a dominant figure . I am sorry for Deans as I think he jumped on a rebound from him missing the AB’s job. His personality is an asset in NZ but seems off in the Australian context. The ARU needs to look at the wider issue of the whole coaching talent pool both in Australia and elsewhere. The Wallaby coaching position will always be subject to the Tall Poppy syndrome and the Shane Warne style of thinking makes it more difficult. If you look through the various histories of Australian Rugby, the major weakness is the description of the coachs. Usually a bit on the win/loss record , a scrap on his playing past and nothing about the style of play he was trying to produce or the team he was trying to mould.
I hope the panel produce a decision for the short term but then place their considerations in the context of the long term stability of that position and the pool within Australia. Goodness knows the Waratah experience is a lesson in how not to do it.