Why 2012 was the nadir of the Western Force
By sittingbison, 18 Dec 2012 sittingbison is a Roar Rookie
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- Australian rugby, Michael Foley, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Western Force
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The 2012 season was the nadir of the Western Force. NIB Stadium was a ruin of rickety scaffold stands with portable toilets, appalling food and drink, and no members bar.
Marquee player Willie Rippia was sent packing for stealing from teammates and Napolioni Nalaga missed half the season with injury.
Coach Richard Graham was sacked mid-season after signing a contract with bitter rivals Queensland Reds.
Star recruit Will Genia reneged on a verbal contract, legendary player and inaugural captain Nathan Sharpe retired, and great player and captain David Pocock left for the Brumbies.
After comprehensively defeating a shell-shocked Reds in Round 6, the team won only one of its last 10 games (against the lowly Lions), and were playing disjointed, boring and stupid kicking rugby that left even stalwart supporters exasperated, a far cry from the star-studded entertaining and enterprising play of 2007 to 2009.
Could it get any worse? Indeed, the long drawn out selection process of securing a top coach went horribly wrong when Michael Cheika turned down a contract offer and left the franchise in disarray and fans deeply concerned for its future.
And then the bombshell, the appointment of Michael Foley, fresh from coaching the Waratahs annus horribilis.
The only saving grace amongst all this gloom was the recruitment of Sias Ebersohn from the Cheetahs to fill the problematic flyhalf, and the re-signing of stalwart players Matt Hodgson, Ben McCalman, Richard Brown and Brett Sheehan, all showing great character in a major statement of intent for the future.
Out of nowhere came the first signs of rejuvenation. The board started talking about a “relaunch”.
Upon arrival Foley immediately said he was not interested in quick fixes and band-aid solutions, but was employed to build from scratch a sustainable professional rugby program from the ground up, and to put in place the right staff and players to achieve that goal.
He started talking about introducing an attractive expansive attacking style that players want to play and WA fans (who thrive on this style in all their sport) want to watch, and future prospects will want to join. What? This doesn’t sound like the 2012 Waratahs!
To the delight of all incredulous supporters, Foley appointed support staff that exactly complimented those grand aspirations: Steve Meehan as attack and backs coach, immensely respected for transforming the Bath backline into a feared, threatening, integrated attacking force.
Chook Fowler from hated rivals Reds as strategic planner.
David Joyce as Head of Athletic Performance to design and implement co-ordinated tailor made athletic programs.
South African Dave Wessels as defence co-ordinator, and GM Chris Webb to revolutionise and professionalise the rugby department.
After martinet John Mitchell and inexperienced Richard Graham, the Force had never seen anything like it, the best possible quality people in all positions working together in a coordinated professional plan specifically designed for sustainable success rather than instant gratification.
Then came the rejuvenation of the playing group. To implement and achieve a revolution in playing style and strategy, it necessitated a large turnover and recruitment of different types of players.
Players of character who wanted to be involved at the Force for the right reasons, not mercenaries looking for a huge pay packet or prima donnas looking to stroke their ego, or pensioners looking for a retirement package. Hungry skillful players with something to prove to themselves and doubters.
Alby Mathewson, an experienced and high quality 9 from Blues, Jayden Hayward an skilful 12 with some experienced at ‘Canes, the very experienced and skillful duo of utility back Sam Norton Knight and loose forward Hugh McMeniman wanting a return to Super Rugby after stints overseas, back rower Chris Alcock wanting to re-establish himself, and centres Chris Tuatara-Morrison seeking a second chance in professional rugby and Junior Rasolea wanting to break into rugby from Sevens.
So out of the ashes of despair of season 2012 comes a new sense of hope for 2013 and beyond, not based on hot air and desperation but finally on something solid, something tangible, the foundations of a real Force to be reckoned with thanks largely to the unfairly derided Foley and his assistants.
A new roofed stadium with professional facilities, a professional rugby department, an integrated coordinated coaching plan with quality staff, a revamped backline selected to play a new exciting attacking style, and the existing strength of the forward pack under Nick Stiles complimented with 3M and Chris Alcock to cover departed Sharpie and Pocock, and the beginnings of player depth, especially in the halves, with nine capped Wallabies.
And most importantly, the hugely admired and respected Matt Hodgson as club captain, twice the Force Player of the Year, who exudes the necessary qualities of character and strength to unify the new playing group with the new structures and schemes.
This total transformation has been stunning and a delight to behold; the players appear happy and enthusiastic.
I am the first to admit I was wrong to be aghast at the appointment of Foley. But I have nothing but admiration for Foley and his team for undertaking such a task and seeking to turn around the long-term fortunes of the Western Force.
The first order of business is to make NIB stadium (with hopefully the newly named Sharpe End stand) a veritable “Force field”, where visiting teams starting or ending long arduous tours fear to play.
The Force have the distinction of home and away winning percentages being equal; they just need to win at home to succour the long suffering but faithful Sea of Blue supporters.
They have also beaten every team in the competition, have won well in both South Africa and New Zealand, and have beaten all Australian teams away. Write them off at your peril.
Game day forwards:
Front row: 1 Longbottom, 2 Charles, 3 Cowan with experienced Maafu and maturing Manu.
Locks: 4 Wykes, 5 Lynn with returning 3M.
Backrow: 6 Brown, 8 McCalman, 7 Hodgson with experienced Alcock and maturing McCaffrey.
Game day backs:
Halves: 9 Mathewson, 10 Ebersohn are new halves combo with developing Kyle Godwin and experienced Sheehan.
Centres: 12 Hayward, 13 Tupou with Tuatara-Morrison and Rasolea.
Outside: 11 Dellit, 14 Cummins, 15 Mafi with experienced SNK and raw Stubbs (I will slip in here the size of the backs, these guys are huge; almost all well over 6′ and 100kg).
Players to watch: Tuatara-Morrison, 3M, McCaffrey plus Godwin as a future Wallaby 10.
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December 18th 2012 @ 6:55am
Crashy said | December 18th 2012 @ 6:55am | Report comment
Interesting. Hopefully they’ll catch some of the big boys off guard.
December 18th 2012 @ 6:55am
kingplaymaker said | December 18th 2012 @ 6:55am | Report comment
In that case next year will be the depthless abyss beneath human conception with Michael Foley as coach!!!!
It’s amazing that he was appointed over Steve Meehan, a far superior candidate, not that he needed to be very good in comparison to Foley.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:47am
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
KPM, Foley is in more of a Director of Coaching role, he is putting in place the structures for sustained success. He adroitly selected Steve Meehan to be the actual “coach”, so we have the best of both worlds. Off topic and I’m not going to pursue this on this thread, possibly Deans (who has many great attributes and a vast knowledge and experience of Rugby but a personality/empathy/communication issue) could learn a thing or two, but he is lumbered with Nucifora. I know who I’d rather have. And its interesting that Sir Richie has essentially said the problem with Deans is he is incapable of implementing this structure.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:46pm
kingplaymaker said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Yes that’s well off topic.
Foley is boss as far as I am aware, and results will doubtless soon make this clear.
December 18th 2012 @ 1:38pm
Bunratty said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Very nicely-written article, sittingbison!
December 18th 2012 @ 7:01am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:01am | Report comment
so force now stand a chance because they have more foreigners than ever? not only are they pillaging other countries players, SA and NZ predominantly, now they’re pillaging support staff from around the world? how does all this put the force (and the other aus sides) in a better position next year to be self reliant? how does any of this increase the amount of players coming through the age grades?
this would have to be the worst aus era i’ve witnessed in 40 years of watching rugby and all i can see is it will get worse before it gets better, if it ever does get better.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:42am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:42am | Report comment
Don’t Nz team pillage Aussies for the ITM cup?
December 18th 2012 @ 7:44am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:44am | Report comment
yeah sure j2. nz itm needs more aus players . funny
December 18th 2012 @ 8:08am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Oh so they don’t? Hypocritical me thinks… You go for the best layers available, it’s that simple.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:09am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:09am | Report comment
why is it hypocritical? ur not making sense grammatically or logically
December 18th 2012 @ 9:12am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Its ok for ITM Cup teams to choose some aussies but not OK for Super teams to do similar? Havent the Highlanders got a few foreigners on heir books too?
December 18th 2012 @ 9:14am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
difference being that ITM doesnt need imports to put up a team that can play entertaining positive rugby.
December 18th 2012 @ 9:15am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Well that makes sense…
December 18th 2012 @ 11:14am
Ryan said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Justin you can’t be serious?
NZ is hardly poaching talent from Australia to play in the ITM cup.
I can only think of one Aussie playing in this years comp and that was Betham who is originally from NZ I believe or has strong links here.
The ITM cup is ideal for players wanting to break into SR and any Aussie who gets a shot should feel priviliged as it can only better their rugby development more so than they would get playing club rugby in Sydney or Brisbane.
Also pays to note not one of the Aussies who have played in the ITM cup are withheld from playing for their Australian club teams, SR teams should they be selected or are they forced to swear allegiance to the Black Jersey unlike that which happens in Australia where players are held back from returning to NZ for ITM cup and those who have not represented NZ at senior level are coerced into swearing allegiance to the national team. It is the carrot that it is put in front of them to head across the ditch, and to say it isn’t is to live in denial. (Not that you have said it but I’m sure at some point someone will)
December 18th 2012 @ 8:19am
Darwin Stubbie said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Thanks for the laugh this morning
December 18th 2012 @ 9:46am
Steve said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
I’m a Western Force supporter and I couldn’t care less how many imports they have. The more the better if they entertain and help improve results. I couldn’t care less if there were no Australians in the side, why would I. I’m a western force supporter not a wallaby supporter. International rugby interests me as much as warts.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:27pm
GWS said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
As interesting as warts.
That gold
December 18th 2012 @ 11:55am
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
mania, Perth is a polyglot city with large saffa and Kiwi populations (as well as Brits).
However, I must point out the Force have NOT gone down the road of pillaging other teams and swathes of foreigners. Mathewson, Ebersohn, Hayward and Alcock were all bench bit players behind internationals. Not one of their players is pillaged, in fact over the past few seasons it is the Force who have been pillaged of their star internationals with Brumbies taking Pocock and Rebels taking Judas. On top of this the Force get one marquee and two development players just like Reds, Tahs and Brums. They have never had a single concession from the ARU, which is one of the single greatest impediments to their success (along with the academy fiasco).
Meehan and Fowler had both been let go by the Reds, who decided to take Richard Graham instead.
The Tahs wanted desperately to get Cheika, and get rid of Foley.
So its a win win for everybody, the bench players getting valuable match time, the coaches getting employed in Australia.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:10pm
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
good point sittingbison . tru that force have been more victims of poaching. havent been there but i know that perth is a beautiful diverse city. most of my comments today have been solely tounge in cheek wind up.
goodluck for 2013.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:48pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
mania, lets hope that Steve Meehan can transform the Force backs into an attacking force (scuze the pun hehe), because we all want to see entertaining play not some of the turgid dross served up this year. Nobody is expecting miracles this coming year, but fingers crossed the effort to do it is there.
The funny thing is the Force DID play entertaining rugby with a powerful backline (missing a 10), but lacked forwards. They never stinted in endeavour despite limited success, and usually fought every game to the last second.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
i hope so bison. i was really annoyed that aus got its 5th team and then served up the local derby dross these last 2 seasons. would love to see the force rise above the other teams on the back of its grass roots sytem. then i can say i was right and grassroots is hard work but the way to go to succed in rugby.
as u say “Nobody is expecting miracles this coming year” but with the grassroots in place perth has an infinate more chance of succeeding than any other team without it and perth have ensured continuation of force rugby
December 18th 2012 @ 2:16pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Mania this is nowhere near the worst era in Aust rugby for the last 40 years. Nowhere near it. Aust are ranked 3 in the world and have been 2 for most of the last few years. An Australian team won the super comp in 2011 and the won the 3 nats that year also.
From 1973-1990 the Wallabies won just over 50% of their games and lost multiple tests to teams like Tonga, Wales, Scot, Arg.
Aust now has 5 super teams but they just dont have the player pool. They have less than half the players to choose from under the age of 20 compared to NZ. Also they lose a lot to the more popular code league.
People have short memories and forget that in Aust, union is mainly a private school sport, is the 5th most popular team sport, can not support a national comp and does not have the player pool that other countries like NZ, SA, Fra, Eng, Wal and other countries do. People think that becuz Aust has more adult male players that that must mean they have the player pool, it doesnt. The true indication is the players under 20. Last I looked I didnt see too many 50 year old ex league players being recruited to super rugby.
December 18th 2012 @ 2:38pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Also the ABs have had Kaino, Mils, Sivi, Tuigamala, Lam, Rocakoko, Collins, Soialu in the ABs and many others who were born overseas. Thorn was raised overseas and played for Aust in league. SBW played his first game of pro rugby in NZ at the age of 25 around the same age Thorn did. Steve Devine played for Aust at Jr level and then played for NZ.
The idea that bringing in overseas talent will not help young Australians is also false becuz if they dont bring in foriegn talent now, there will be no teams for those young players to go to in the future becuz as it stands, Aust does not have the players to support 5 super teams.
I think everybody assumes Australia is underperforming. They are definately an overachieving nation as far as its circumstances. Along with Ireland, Aust has been doing extremely well. Thats why I find it amazing that Ausie fans are so upset that in 1 year their team had difficulty playing awesome rugby but still managed amazing come from behind wins with the worst set of injuries and turmoil Ive ever seen for any international side. I mean its like…gee you poor Aust fans, your team is still winning despite everything thats happened. Dry your eyes and acknowledge what a good year Aust has had under the circumstances.
December 18th 2012 @ 3:59pm
Lippy said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Your getting desperate HT when you use Collins, So’oialo and Mils Muliaina to bolster your argument all of whom came to NZ as youngsters. You can also throw Rocokoko into that mix.
Once again your posting shows you out to not be the Kiwi you claim to be.
January 8th 2013 @ 7:56am
Jaredsbro said | January 8th 2013 @ 7:56am | Report comment
I notice you didn’t in any way respond to his other comments of don’t cry so much over a traditionally losing battle. Rugby has plenty of potential growth in Oz but it requires a team in all main cities/a presence in all other regional cities in order to catch those who can’t or won’t make the AFL etc. If the AFL is doing this in the traditional Rugby nurseries maybe it’s time for it to start going both ways…which again reqs a BBL minimum of all major cities with a team or as direct feeders for the Super Provinces.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:47pm
Malo said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
I suppose a win is a win, but boy they got lucky. They only played alright against England. You do have a valid point they have got the results on the board for an injury year. I think the injuries were often caused through poor player management.
December 21st 2012 @ 9:44am
Steve25 said | December 21st 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
The issue here is a lot more complex than just poaching players from NZ. Western Australia has a very long and proud rugby tradition but in comparison to NZ, NSW, QLD and even ACT which benefits from its proximity to NSW, its rugby community is very small, especially when you consider that WA is predominately an AFL playing state, the playing stock/pool in WA is very small. In order for a rugby franchise such as the Force to survive within the Super 15 comp, we have little choice but to contract players globally, which we have every right to do as long as we follow the ARU and SANZAR rules regarding foreign players etc. You may then argue that WA should not have a Super 15 representative side if it can’t muster its own players. However, I totally disagree with that because in order for rugby to be successful in the professional era and compete against soccer, League and AFL then you need to grow the game so that there are maximum opportunities for players and coaching staff to develop and improve.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:11am
Johnno said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
I like the Western force , I have a real soft spot for them and WA rugby. WA has produced like STH Australia some of the best sports teams in all codes, AFL, NBL Perth wildcats, old NSL Perth Glory won a title,Sheffield shield cricket , and some of the best talent ever too in OZ sport.
Luke Longley former NBA player with Micheal Jordan at Chicago Bulls, Andrew Vlahov australian boomer, Ben Cousins, Dennis Lillee, Bruce Reid, to name a few. But like STH Australia, WA gets mucked around alot by the east coast Sydney centric brigade.
The force have wasted alot of years when they could of advanced, the fact it’s taken this long to finally get there act together to me, shows the ARU could of done a much better job. Alot of wasted years for WA rugby.
And the biggest hogwash and nonsense was, that the Force struggle coz of there east coast location, and players don’t want to live there, “what hogwash nonsense”.
Perth has 1.7 million people, a 1st world city, a beautiful climate, only 3-4 hours on the plane to Sydney, your still in Australia, total nonsense that theory.
-If golf and tennis players go and live in Miami Florida, and all the socceroos players living and playing in the backwaters of Europe sometime for 10 years plus in places like Croatia, Poland, Romania, Belguim,switzerland, Russia, the North of England, and Japan rugby,then i’m sure Perth is not too far away from mummy and daddy and there teddy bear ,for these east coast born adults.
Notice I say adults not kids, there not being sent to boarding school by having to live in Perth.
-So that is nonsense perception why the force have failed to recruit. These are young adult men in there 20′s who don’t mind re-location, the reason why more players didn’t re-locate to Perth , was the lack of support for them in section of Australian rugby, and not helping them get a start up administration to a good level.
Good team on paper hope it stays fit, and I hope Foley steps up, and we will find out if it was the Tahs culture or system this year that was at fault, the tahs have had a cleanout too, or is Foley really just not up to head coach super rugby standard.
All in all I hope the force do well, but on a negative, and i think it’s relevant on the player welfare side, the force have been handed the worst draw of the year,of any super rugby team in terms of travel times, another kick in the guts for WA rugby.
http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby-gold/western-force-handed-brutal-travel-schedule-for-2013/story-fndpt9s1-1226528074807
December 18th 2012 @ 9:39am
Blue Blood said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
I’m surprised that you question the validity if the isolation and travel complaints made clear and plain by a departing Pocock and captain Hodgson on this very site. The article Hodgo wrote is still on his website if you want to read it yourself (www.matthodgson.com.au). I strongly suspect that their opinions are more valid than any armchair heroes such as ourselves.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:51pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
the single biggest thing the ARU could do is relax the salary cap for a “relocation” allowance, because it costs a fortune to move to Perth and the government has rescinded the living away from home tax break.
Of course having another marquee might help, thats not really the long term answer however we need to get through the next couple of years in the mean time.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm
Go the Wannabe's said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Correct, it’s well documented that players have left to be closer to friends and family on the east coast. And with the salary cap, why wouldn’t you?
They need to get rid of the cap, allow force more international players and access to a decent academy on the west coast.
Only then we may actually see some true parity.
December 18th 2012 @ 1:17pm
Wilson said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Hear hear.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:48pm
Hertryk said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:48pm | Report comment
Ditto to that
December 18th 2012 @ 1:26pm
Jutsie said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
instead of getting rid of the cap they could allow the force some concessions like the AFL allow the swan. Incorporate some “away from home” and “cost of living” extras for each player.
Cos if u get rid of the cap all together then the force will still lose out due to the bigger clubs having deeper pockets.
December 18th 2012 @ 3:39pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
yup agree, and its a flat rate so cannot by rorted to pay half the wage of a star recruit (no names no pack drill lol)
December 18th 2012 @ 4:09pm
Jutsie said | December 18th 2012 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
haha yeah I said “each player” for that exact reason. Thats the one issue I have with the AFL system, if they had a flat rate we wouldn’t have the ridiculous situation where a premiership team is able to be the highest bidder for an out of contract star.
December 18th 2012 @ 2:52pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Perth is the 2nd most isolated capital city in the world.
That theory you say is hogwash is backed up by players opions and geographical fact.
December 19th 2012 @ 6:52pm
Campbell Watts said | December 19th 2012 @ 6:52pm | Report comment
Where’s the most isolated city?
I always thought that was Perth
December 19th 2012 @ 7:17pm
Jerry said | December 19th 2012 @ 7:17pm | Report comment
Honolulu.
Though according to Wiki, Auckland is more remote than Perth (in that it’s further from any other city of 1 million plus) as Adelaide is slightly closer to Perth than Sydney is to Auckland. In rugby terms of course, Perth is far far more isolated.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:19am
sixo_clock said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:19am | Report comment
Sounds like Foley, having escaped the moribund eastern states has put his cards on the table. Good stuff. If he can blend this talent into a team then good luck. He must have done soul-searching and sought good advice. WIsh him and the Force all the best.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:58am
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
six it would appear that Foley must have been shackled by HQ. What is being said and done at the Force is diametrically opposite to what we saw at the Tahs last year.
And it also appears the Force Board have given him open slather and every available resource to turn them from a disorganised rabble into a professional outfit. And it looks like its working
December 18th 2012 @ 1:30pm
jeznez said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
sb, just wait until he explains to you that the attacking game he is implementing is an attacking kicking game!!!!!!
Just kidding – fingers crossed that you guys go well – just not as well as my Tahs!
December 18th 2012 @ 3:47pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
hehe I think there would be a mass exodus, the sea of blue would part just like the red sea did lol (a little humour FOS) if that happened jez.
I have had a few convos with Alby and the like, he came over specifically because the gameplan suited his strengths which are passing and running, not kicking it away brainlessly. Ebersohn has a tactical boot, but also runs and passes first. So does Godwin.
And as I have said to KPM, Foleys task is to rebuild the overall rugby program, its Meehan who is in charge of coaching the attack with Fowler as strategist. And these two have had considerable success in implementing attacking adventurous playing styles
December 18th 2012 @ 4:25pm
sixo_clock said | December 18th 2012 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
“Shackled’ would be a mild term for it.
They are both in a desperate position, time to open the windows, fresh air etc.
Rugby is all about the little things done quickly and accurately with a bit of strength and venom. If this group bond into a team then we can expect better things this year. Matt Hodgson will set a good tone. Hopefully he and the coaches will get the voices going on the field, get them thinking, get them involved in the process of generating pressure and identifying a weakness to exploit. If that happens then the Force fans can expect good things within a few years.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:19am
Darwin Stubbie said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:19am | Report comment
The thing is the imports are still mostly second grade … Mathewson is average, Hayward an ok NPC player – they’re not going to set the competition on fire …
One thing though this lot surely couldn’t be any worse prepared that 2012 team … I went to the preseason game v the Brumbies up here and they were appalling – you could see then that the brumbies had spent there preseason doing the basics and were at least a team with promise … The force were a rabble ….
You’ve got to think Foley has at least got them going forward from an extremely low base – still don’t see them doing much next year – in a fight with the rebels for conference and overall wooden spooners
December 18th 2012 @ 8:45am
nickoldschool said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Agree with your analysis DS. The only positive is that they should at least try to enjoy SR format, have a real go and entertain their supporters. In any comp with a relegation system they would be starting with a Damocles sword above the head, petrified with the fear of losing their spot. That’s why I at least expect or even demand that teams who fight for the wooden spoon at least give it a go and try to win rather than avoid hidings.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:37am
Bakkies said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
The Force were bad in that preseason game but they were unlucky to lose to the Brumbies in Canberra in round 1. The Force have the forwards even without Pocock and Sharpe just the back play needs work. Injuries rather then travel is a bigger problem for them.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:05pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
yes they were a rabble Darwin, and I am quite happy to lay the blame for that in the coaches box. The season itself was very hard to endure, even though we beat the Reds and the Tahs lol.
As to the recruited players, they might not be stars but they have the character we have been looking for. Don’t forget the Force has had its share of recruiting big names nad it has not been a particulary successful or happy process. We are very happy with Alby and Sias, I think these guys will bring a lot of stability and process to the halves.
One of the key objectives of Foley and co. is creating an environment and style that attracts quality players. But it has to be solid and sustainalbe, a culture if you like, not razzle dazzle. This is a building process underway, not a finished article.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:21am
the old man of rugby said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:21am | Report comment
To Mania.
If you find it so bad – Stop watching and more importantly stop being so negative. You must be a fun person to be around.
We need people involved to be positive .
The Force are attempting to rebuild and are combining experience and developing youth eg Kyle Godwin, McCaffrey, Rasolea, Stubbs, Manu, Wykes . From what I hear the culture at the Force is changing and as Sittingbison correctly pointed out their Club Captain ( and hopefully game captain) is doing a great job off the field to make this happen. Guys like Hodgson are rare in the modern game – they are loyal to their club, their supporters , their mates and their beliefs.
Good article.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:29am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:29am | Report comment
the old man of rugby – i try to avoid watching force (and tah’s and rebels) games but have no choice as they come up against NZ teams. i avoid aus derby games like the plague. these games are doing so much damage to aus viewers numbers.
i’m not being negative, i’m being realistic. u should should learn to take honest criticism
December 18th 2012 @ 7:44am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:44am | Report comment
Why avoid rebels games, coz they touched up nz sides? Always entertaining the rebels, even if they cop a belting. They at least try and play some rugby
December 18th 2012 @ 7:51am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
what are u on this morning j2? i dont watch rebels because they suk and are painful to watch. the few aus derby’s i watched at the beginning of the season taught me to use my time wisely. theres a reason why rebels and force were in the bottom 5.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:09am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Mania, you are missing out mate, beaten the shaders and canes in some of the most entertaining matches in super rugby.
Your loss
December 18th 2012 @ 8:14am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
i watch the canes thanx, thats about the most i can stand watching a team lose. were the saders and canes the only teams they beat? wow big loss missing the rest of their season
December 18th 2012 @ 9:05am
Jerry said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
They beat the Blues and Saders last year, Canes the year before that.
They got bent over by the Canes and Highlanders last year.
December 18th 2012 @ 9:07am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Fair enough, I am pretty sure that one team has to lose most of the time though…
Jeery – yes spot on. They just missed beating the Bulls which was another cracker. Highly entertaining. Just because they lose doesnt mean they arent worth watching. Look at the Cheetahs last year. Only won 5 matches but I tell you what, if you gave up watching you missed some of the best rugby of the season IMO.
December 18th 2012 @ 9:11am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
just as well u have a tolerance for losing then justin2. that will come in real handy for supporting aus teams next year
December 18th 2012 @ 9:14am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
We’ll see mania after all its our worst era in 40 years apparently. You couldnt make it up, you probably didnt get tv until the 90s
December 18th 2012 @ 9:16am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
arogance vs personal shots? winners are grinners
December 18th 2012 @ 9:23am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Yes low blow, I take it back. Let me know when the Canes win something…
December 18th 2012 @ 10:17am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
i’ve supported wellington rugby teams for 40 years now and no matter what the team or competition they’re in its always the same. the canes you see today has basically the same winning ratio that the lions of the 1970′s had. wellington has always had great players but never won anything.
back in the 70′s it was graemeNourie, stuWilson and bernieFraser, the 80′s we had schuster, alamaIeremia, the 90′s we had cullen, lomu and umaga. we didnt win jack. but support them, gods yeah. they epitomise wellington rugby, win or lose we are always going to look good.
i heard it quoted by a southAfrican that the canes supporter are the hardiest in the world. what kind of fan would repeatedly support a team with this much potential that wins nothing?
December 18th 2012 @ 10:33am
Jerry said | December 18th 2012 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Come on Mania, it’s not quite ‘nothing’. Wgtn won the NPC and Shield fairly regularly up until the mid 80′s. Sure it’s only the 2000 NPC and a short Shield reign in 08 since then, but it’s not like Wellington have always been bridesmaids.
December 18th 2012 @ 10:35am
Emric said | December 18th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Mania
I’ve supported Wellington teams for over 30 years and I agree with your statement. The Hurricanes have followed the same pattern as the Lions.
However I am a loyal Wellington Supporter.
December 18th 2012 @ 10:36am
El Gamba said | December 18th 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Mania it’s worthy to note that NZ got thrashed by England when we beat them comfortably just a few weeks earlier. You’re only as good as your last game.
Best of luck winning a World Cup away one day.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:05am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
thanx elGamba – we’re not thinking about the world cup at the moment. AB’s are just trying to win everything in the meantime. good luck with the superRugby, bledisloe , TRC and the lions tour next year.
jerry i stand corrected. could u not let facts interupt my rant about how hard wellington supporters have it please.
emric – i agree wholehearted with u. i will always support wellington. how do the canes get such loyal supporters? when hammett cleaned house i was irate, but i never for a second considered not supporting the canes. in fact i wore my canes top more often during the season of 2011.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:27am
Ryan said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
I’m surprised no one has picked up on Steve Hansens interview on Sky the other day where he was speaking about the 2012 season and stated that there were contributing factors to the loss against England so they weren’t as concerned with the result as some here at the Roar would have us believe.
I thought the Anti AB brigade like El and Justin2 would have been all over it by now.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:30am
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:30am | Report comment
do tell ryan. what did he say in particular that would incite the AB haters?
December 18th 2012 @ 11:41am
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Not sure how I qualify as anti AB Ryan! Regardless and I havent seen the comments I am not sure why Hansen would look to make excuses. They got thumped, it happens, move on.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:42am
Ryan said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:42am | Report comment
Pretty much exactly what I wrote.
He did not go into detail about the contributing factors, just acknowledged that there were some and that the team whilst annoyed as they are with any loss, they are not panicing as there were circumstances and factors going into the match.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:47am
Ryan said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
How about you accept Justin that there were contributing factors and move on?
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that the All Blacks were ridden with a noro virus and suffering from fatigue which was only exacerbated by the illness.
I stated on another thread that I am not sure a fully fit AB team would have beaten England that day as england played well very well in fact however FACT remains the ABs did have the noro virus and it undoubtedly affected there performance.
So how about you accept that and move on, because you come across as exrtremely bitter.
Hansen did not make excuses he did however state there were contributing factors, why is that so hard for you to stomach?
December 18th 2012 @ 1:06pm
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
My goodness you are kidding, you brought it up, I couldnt give a flying fark about the game or the ABs frankly. Its not my business, they arent my team
December 18th 2012 @ 3:10pm
jeznez said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Mania, we’ve got the Tahs over here – got fifteen Wallabies in the squad and they are yet to win a trophy. Couple that with the gameplan of ‘attacking kicking’ we’ve endured of late and I’d say the last remaining of us are pretty hardy!
Huge fingers crossed for this year. Cheika is obviously aware of the boos the team have copped as the marketing this year has focussed on him saying that the Waratahs aim is to be a team you can be proud to be a part of.
As I say fingers crossed.
December 19th 2012 @ 5:23am
mania said | December 19th 2012 @ 5:23am | Report comment
jeznez – seems i’m giving out a lot of apologies on this blog. ok whatever remaining tah’s supporters there are they would be the hardiest/loyalist of all supporters. good luck for your season jeznez.
December 18th 2012 @ 3:03pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Canes will win the whole thing in 2013.
Their defence came right towards the end of 2012 season and guys like Savea, Coles and Barrett have an ABs and full super season behind them.
Franks will add some steal up front and as long as the injury bug doesnt hit too hard, my money is on them to win the comp but who knows.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:06pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
The Force generally do ok against kiwi teams mania, especially our bunnies the ‘Saders lol
December 18th 2012 @ 12:15pm
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
sittingbison – the thing i have against aus teams is the fact that aus cannot support 5 teams due to lack of player depth and no one (i thought) doing anything about grass roots rugby for the kids. i’ve learnt a lot today and by the sounds of it perth have created a grassroots and are addressing exactly the problem i argue with johnno and kpm about in that the secret to the AB’s success is the grassroots support structure that hides under the iceberg tip.
i’ve learnt something new today and its something that makes me think that maybe aus rugby does stand a chance of getting it self out of the hole that the ARU has gotten itself into.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
one of the biggest bugbears mania is the top down approach of JON at the ARU, rather than bottom up. In my somewhat limited business life I have NEVER seen a top heavy and top down approach work – its Fordist which is 100 years out of date.
The grass roots seems to be independent of the ARU, despite it not because of it. Rugby is growing in WA, but its a long process that is taking the unheralded efforts of unsung heroes.
BTW rugby in WA is not alien (such as NRL). It has been here forever, dare I say it in private schools lol but also in the community. Of course footy is the major code, but rugby is defo here.
December 18th 2012 @ 1:03pm
mania said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
bison – . this is also my bugbear. i get sick of arguing with other roarers that want to throw more money at the top end of rugby instead of the base that is grassroots.
grassroots does need to be independent of ARU but the ARU should still be investing a lot of money into it, just dont let them control it.
i’ve learnt a lot about WA rugby. i lived in Adelaide for awhile and i guess i just assumed that the lay of the rugby landscape was the same. boy am i wrong. thanx for the enlightenment
December 18th 2012 @ 2:26pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
I enjoy watching the Rebels. You know they are either going to put on a show and score plenty of try’s or be absolutely pumped. It’s either very fun or very funny and I don’t mind that for a bit of friday after work action down at the pub.
December 18th 2012 @ 2:56pm
Justin2 said | December 18th 2012 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Exactly, you’ll be entertained one way or another. Now the Tahs on the other hand…
December 18th 2012 @ 3:06pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
No I also like watching the Tahs to. It’s hilarious seeing the realisation creep across the face of a Tah fan after another loss becomes obvious at around the 50 minute mark of each game, and then the subsequent angst of how the best ever team of all time in the history of universal rugby could possible lose again!
One of my favourite lines about the Tahs:
“They Just need to Kick it less!!!!” – Some ignoramus Tah fan, any year
December 18th 2012 @ 4:34pm
Markus said | December 18th 2012 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
You can understand why the Tahs kick the ball away all the time if you’ve ever seen them pass.
‘They just need to kick it less!’ was the ethos of the last-round match against the Reds, the Tahs were so good at their passing game that they knocked the Brumbies out of the finals…
December 18th 2012 @ 3:07pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
That’s probably enjoying watching rugby for the wrong reasons, but I’m sure the Tahs will take it. They need all the ratings they can get.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:53pm
GWS said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
I could watch them get beat every week.
Oh hang on…
December 19th 2012 @ 2:09am
FraggleWrangler said | December 19th 2012 @ 2:09am | Report comment
As an Australian and die hard Brumbies supporter it pains me to say this, but I have to agree with Mania on this one. Whenever two Kiwi teams play each other it’s a spectacle of running rugby, like the old Randwick days of the 80′s – attack attack attack. Whenever two South African teams play each other the physicality level is beyond anything in Australia. However if two Australian teams play each other, it quickly degenerates into an endless procession of chip kicks, box kicks, up-and-unders (that the kicker rarely regathers) and touch finders that don’t actually find touch.
Even Phil Kearns has mentioned the appaling mode of play of the Australian teams nowadays.
December 19th 2012 @ 2:21am
Neuen said | December 19th 2012 @ 2:21am | Report comment
I can watch the Hurricanes and Cheetahs go at each other all season long. Although they might end up on the wrong side of the table they like to entertain and love to give the ball some air. Although their defending is sometimes a bit lacking. I enjoyed the Stormers too. I don’t know but I just love 15 guys tackling the crap out of the opposition. Although that Brok Harris guy standing in the ten channel with his signature reverse torpedo pass is one negative and he should try and spend his time securing ruck ball rather than to be a flyhalf IMO
December 18th 2012 @ 7:51am
Red Kev said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
I hope Foley and the Force to a McKenzie-Carmichael Reds like turnaround. Can only be good for Australian rugby for the Force to show it can be done despite the ARU largely ignoring them. I’d like the Force to come second in the conference to the Reds … not sure it is really possible this year but it would be awesome to see.
McCaffrey, Dellit, and (because I’ve been suitably chastened by other posters here) Godwin are the ones I’ll be watching with interest.
December 18th 2012 @ 12:12pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
yup RK its a turnaround, officially labelled “relaunch”. They do not have the resources to be like the Reds and do it in a couple of years, but the objective is similar – put in place programs and systems for sustained success, not immediate gratification.
They have some young guys that could well develop into stars of the future – McCaffrey, Cottrell, Godwin, Longbottom, Manu to name a few. And look what happens when the likes of Cummins (TBH written off by most but not all) are given a sniff. Someone said a month or two ago this could be the making of Cummins, we could really see him develop now he has got a shot in Gold.
December 18th 2012 @ 3:09pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Yes its a turn around but without Genia, the Faingaas, Higgs, Cooper, Shipperly, Ioane, Slipper, Schatz, Gill, Morahan, Tapuai and the real reason the Reds had the turn around.
December 18th 2012 @ 3:13pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
The only player who have listed who was a “somebody” at another club before McKenzie-Carmichael came along was Ioane, and even he was developed by the QRU pathways at schoolboy level. The rest of them were either unwanted (Faingaas) by their original team or developed through the QRU. This is how rugby development is supposed to work, invest in juniors to produce good players.
December 18th 2012 @ 6:13pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
Yes McKenzie shaped those players from clay, clapped his hands and said “let there be rugby”.
Palease, most of those players were Aust schoolboys and age group reps.
If you want to believe that McKenzie had a magic wand and waved it over QLD but not his previous 2 clubs, where he was sacked, then good on you.
Im here to tell you that those players made McKenzies reputation not the other way around. As seen by absolute hammerings when the injury toll was high in 2012, it is NOT McKenzies magic that causes the Reds to be successful, it is the players who were in QLD before his arival.
I have no doubt that the coach has an influemce but nowhere near what people claim more often than not.
To suggest that McKenzie was the reason is insane. That takes away from the skill andability and that the players have. Im a big advocate for the players being the main reason becuz so far big coaches have not been able to make teams like Italy, Arg, Ire, Wal and Jap world beaters. Why? Becuz of the players they have. I am 100% sure that a coach needs the players far mote than the players need the coach to win games becuz that is what is demonstrated titme after time. When Portugal wins the WC becuz G.Henry has been there coach for a few years I might change my mind but until then I see the trend of good players making good teams continuing.
December 18th 2012 @ 6:30pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
I think I speak for everyone when I say, What on earth are you going on about??
Wands?? Clay?? Portugal??
December 18th 2012 @ 6:48pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 6:48pm | Report comment
No Jiggles Im sorry, YOU JUST SPEAK FOR ONLY YOU.
Talk about an inflated ego.
And you understood just fine but obviously have no reply.
Im sure if Cooper, Genia, Ioane, Higgs, Horwill, Tapuai, Slipper and The Faingaas were not at the Reds, the McKenzie magic would have conjured up a super title and G.Henry would have won the 2011 WC with Namibia.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:07pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
And if my aunt was born with balls she’s be my uncle…
In your little world why wouldn’t those players be at the Reds, and why would Henry be in Namibia??
December 18th 2012 @ 9:07pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
Jiggles lets not pretend you have an argument to use.
You know that without those players McKenzies Reds would not be the team they are today.
McKenzie took over the coaching role in 2010 and you are trying to act as if he has somehow converted the development system and turned the club around in 1 year.
Ummm no thats wrong.
Also if you think the coach is responsible and not the players, why was he sacked by his previous 2 clubs?
Im not going to resort to insults becuz I have an argument. You just got given out in backyard cricket and youve picked up your widdle bat, your widdle ball and youre going home in a huff so dont pretend youre above arguing, youre sulking.
December 20th 2012 @ 11:38am
Sage said | December 20th 2012 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Hightackle, wouldn’t the Tahs be “exhibit A” against your thinking if it’s the players and not the coach? Talented players, a lot of Wallabies, but poor results.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:44pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
So youve got nothing Jiggles?
I did think that was the case but you avoiding the argument speaks volumes.
Thanks.
The truth is, and as you well know, the Reds success was mainly due to the emergence of players such as Genia, Higgs, Horwill, Ioane the Faingaas and a few others. It wasnt any kind of special recipie or magic wand, just a bunch of good players being in the same team. McKenzie did not create these players, they were coming through the ranks or were already Wallabies and McKenzie got the opportunity to coach them.
Its just like those that said Hammett had really done well with the Canes. No he hasnt. They finished 8th last year. Thats in the bottom half of the table. Besides its Savea, TJ, C.Smith, Vito, Taylor, Coles etc who are coming through and yet Hammett is getting praise for the ability of young ABs and coming 8th. Its wrong.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:53pm
Jiggles said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
I’m not sure what I am supposed to have, to be honest.
In situations like this I am reminded of the following saying:
“Never argue with an i_diot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
So I will just leave it at that.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:57pm
GWS said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
So what the hell is dingos excuse
December 18th 2012 @ 9:18pm
Hightackle said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
@ GWS. “Whats Deans excuse”?.
Umm, not having Horwill, Genia, Ioane, The Faingaas, Tapuai, Pocock, Barnes, JOC, Palu, Higgs, Simmons, Barnes, Ioane, McCalman, McCabe, Moore, TPN, Mitchell, AAC, Beale, Lealiifano, White and others for games or the whole season perhaps?
But still they beat SA, Eng, Wal, Arg, Ital and drew with NZ and finished the year slightly below SA in 3rd.
Oh my god! Sack everyone!
December 19th 2012 @ 5:36am
Justin2 said | December 19th 2012 @ 5:36am | Report comment
A wonderfully out together, yet exaggerated, list.
December 18th 2012 @ 7:52am
Brett McKay said | December 18th 2012 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Nice one Bison. I’ll give credit to the Force – after Genia said no, and Pocock left, the potential was there for things to come crumbling down, but instead they just got on with rebuilding the place, even if it took too long to decide who the re-builders would be.
I think they’ve picked up some reasonable players, and I genuinely hope they can play as expansively as they say they want to. The Sea of Blue certainly deserve something to look forward to after a year to forget..
December 18th 2012 @ 1:02pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
jeepers Brett it was a dark time mid season with everything possible going wrong.
I am always surprised with the speed things can turn around in ANY endeavour – such as Berlin being rebuilt after being levelled in WW2. When it happens, it can happen quickly. In the blink of an eye we went from decrying the appointment of Foley (icing on the cake of Genia, Graham, Pocock etc) to thinking wow! this guy is NOT what we expected.
I am amazed at the difference in what is being said and done now at the Force, to what we saw at the Tahs (and Force) last year.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:05am
biltongbek said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Well I’ll say this, I watch all the Super XV matches, I don’t really have a pre concieved idea about what entails boring rugby (perhaps because I am South African, we tend to view rugby slightly differently down here)
At least the Force won’t be the weakest team in the competition, that honour will belong to the Kings.
Good luck to the Force, I quite like them.
December 18th 2012 @ 8:22am
Darwin Stubbie said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Good point I forgot about the kings – a distant, distant last spot awaits them – the only benefit i can see coming from their inclusion is that they may stem the tide of thought for ongoing expansion
December 18th 2012 @ 8:25am
biltongbek said | December 18th 2012 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Good point, expansion is a fool’s paradise.
December 18th 2012 @ 9:16am
sixo_clock said | December 18th 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Not expansion inyama.umlomo, its politics. Whether individual members of the KIngs could make the grade in the other franchises will not be put to the test because they opened the door to well-meaning but not very bright ‘positive action’. Now all those behind the team will be subjected to some very difficult lessons. Competition must be fair and equal.
December 18th 2012 @ 11:39am
Neuen said | December 18th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
And the fact that the fat cats at SARFU own 50 percent of the Kings
December 18th 2012 @ 12:16pm
sittingbison said | December 18th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
biltong when the forwards have pretty much the best back row in the business that gets them huge amounts of turnoverball, but the very first phase play is to hoof it to the waiting full back and wings like Dagg etc to run it straight back, it can become a bit trying. The “boring” label also comes from the coach being completely disinterested, and making no effort with game plans strategies or tactics.
The kicking was not intelligent or tactical, it was brain dead.