English rugby’s tight five coming on strong
By Ben.S, 2 Feb 2013 Ben.S is a Roar Guru
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Loosehead prop is possibly an area of concern for the English rugby side in the absence of Alex Corbsiero.
Joe Marler is yet to really hit his straps at Test level, but then admittedly he is still only 22 and a veteran of five Test caps, so perhaps any criticism is premature.
As a means of comparison, Corbisiero played well in his first Six Nations in the tight, but he struggled in the loose. The next season he showed a real improvement physically, so one hopes that Marler might tread a similar path following further international exposure this year.
He certainly held his own in South Africa against the Springboks and playing is the best way of learning. Marler is a less powerful scrummager than Corbisiero, but at Heineken Cup level he is an impressive all-round prop, although his discipline is still poor.
It’s also worth considering that at Harlequins he plays with a huge tighthead, James Johnstone, and an equally huge bona fide tighthead lock, Olly Kohn, whereas with England he plays with a smaller tight five, and thus greater physical responsibility rests on his shoulders.
Marler tends to carry less for England than he does for Harlequins, but then England play a different brand of rugby. Similarly, Andrew Sheridan was utilised in a different manner with England than at club level.
A lot has been made of Marler’s scrummaging, but in reality his tight work for Harlequins has generally been good, and he is much improved in this area. There were criticisms aimed at Marler during the Autumn Tests, but in his defence he entered that series with three caps, a small rookie hooker and two 5 locks (Palmer and Parling) behind him in the scrum.
I’m intrigued to see how well he goes with Dylan Hartley, either starting or off the bench, and Joe Launchbury alongside him. His opposition for the loosehead jersey is Mako Vunipola.
Vunipola still has the look of a man carrying puppy fat, but statistically he has a greater work rate than Marler at Aviva Premiership level and concedes fewer penalties. This comparison is even more telling because the two are similar players.
They both like to carry the ball, and have a good tackle count. Graham Rowntree is a big fan of Vunipola, and anything less than a top performance from Marler against Scotland could see him demoted to the bench.
At hooker Dylan Hartley finally has genuine Test standard competition in the form of diminutive former centre Tom Youngs. Prior to the Autumn Tests I was critical of Youngs and doubted his ability to play international football. I was wrong, he was one of England’s star men, and is now being talked of as a Lions contender.
As a smaller man (1.75m) he is a different type of ball carrier to Hartley. While Hartley carries upright and either reverses into his man right forearm first to try and form a maul or off-load, Youngs carries far, far lower to the ground, as if he were burrowing.
With his height being beneficial here, it allows for quick ball as he inevitably goes to ground after successive leg drives, and the ball is presented rapidly. However, if he is not supported by a fellow forward there is an opportunity for the opposition to pilfer the ball as his recycling is normally so quick.
At club level, Youngs is prone to the occasional wonky throw, but then so is Hartley. His lineout stats during the Autumn Tests were very good apart from the South Africa game. The England lineout struggled then, but it’s worth noting that Tom Woods, a key man in the air, was starting his first game and that a lot of ball was called to him, especially at the front. Woods’ inclusion changed the dynamic of the lineout.
Due to his stature and time playing in the backs there has been numerous media comparisons with Schalk Brits, however, in reality they are totally different players. Brits sweeps from deep and brings other players into the game, whereas Youngs is very much a tight forward who sticks to the ruck area and carries just off.
In the circumstances I think his physical dynamism is often overplayed by the media, but nonetheless he is a now a key man in the England squad. He carries strongly and tackles low and hard. It’s also a benefit to England that he has a club relationship with Geoff Parling and Dan Cole to attack the opposition loosehead.
I’ve also long been a critic of Hartley, thinking him sluggish, lacking vision and prone to repeating the same mistakes: carrying too upright, without support and making it overtly obvious he is going to carry the ball, but I’ve totally reversed my opinion of him.
Hartley is now an integral part of the England team. I also think he’s really developed into an intelligent footballer. His carries are now much better timed, and prior to his injury he showed a real ability to bring others into the game around him, with off-loads, flicked balls and even reverse passes. He hits good angles on the charge, a skill few hookers have.
Another example was his tackling style during the Summer Tests against the Springboks. Hartley, sometimes illegally, literally threw himself at the legs of oncoming Bok forwards. The majority of the time this worked, and the ball carriers hit the ground immediately, but on one occasion it backfired badly against Bismarck du Plessis, who simply spun off Hartley’s shoulder and scored.
This showed a man willing to alter his approach to the game depending on the opposition. It also showed bravery as on multiple occasions he made sure he was the man going to make the big hit (along with Tom Johnson). It’s easy to throw barbs at Hartley, but he puts himself about and doesn’t step backwards for anybody.
Hartley also has a cynical side to his game, and is becoming increasingly influential at slowing down opposition ball and taking on the role that Lawrence Dallaglio once lovingly filled.
Dan Cole has rapidly grown into one of the top tighthead props in world rugby alongside Adam Jones and Nicolas Mas. He’s not the thickest-set prop going, and is comparatively lean, but he is a tough, tough man, an excellent scrummager, and has great awareness at the ruck contest.
Cole is probably the best pilfering prop in world rugby, but what people tend to forget is that Cole is able to make so many crucial turnovers is because he reads the game so well, and chooses which rucks he should attempt to steal ball, or which rucks to simply try and slow.
As a scrummaging forward Cole is comparatively uncomplicated, but he has put a hurt on a number of leading props in Test rugby. It was a big statement that Adam Jones made when referring to how dominant Cole was at such a young age.
David Wilson backs Cole up off the bench and in my opinion is a very underrated prop. Wilson has also covered loosehead off the bench before, and I can think of a number of games where he has come on and steadied an unstable scrum.
Wilson was always considered a star player at youth level, and one who would rise straight to the top, but his ascent was somewhat staggered, and he didn’t really kick on as predicted. Significantly, in Martin Johnson’s first game in charge against Wales Wilson started, but see how Cole has progressed and overtaken him since then.
Wilson is a big, big man, and he also carries strongly, but his hands aren’t the greatest, and he is a poor decision maker. For all the good scrums Wilson has put in I can also recall incidents where without looking he picked the ball up off the back of a ruck and charged headfirst and alone into the defence, ending in a turnover.
However, aside from him it has been proven beyond doubt that Paul Doran-Jones, who can also cover loosehead, is simply too lightweight for Test rugby.
England’s most pleasing regeneration has come in the second row, specifically the 4 jersey.
Courtney Lawes has long been talked about as the coming man due to his defensive abilities, ball handling skills and his athleticism. However England has long struggled with gaining quick ball and, despite wearing the 4 jersey, Lawes is not the sort of lock who hits ruck after ruck.
Thus England have often been too underpowered in the tight exchanges over the past two seasons, hence the 2011 elevation of Louis Deacon, the archetypal yeoman.
Lawes has just started to regain form and fitness, and showed some good touches in the Autumn Tests, however his starting jersey is now in the hands of Joe Launchbury. Launchbury probably doesn’t fit the stereotype of a natural tighthead lock, but he is a far better rugby player than Lawes in the sense he is so good at his core duties and basic rugby skills.
Combine that with a natural athleticism, good timing and aggression and you have somebody who could become a totem for the England squad over the next decade.
I’m mildly convinced that Stuart Barnes stole my Dean Richards comparison from a few months back, but it is particularly apt. Launchbury really doesn’t make mistakes, but neither does he appear to passively direct the direction of a game like Richards did either.
He vigorously injects himself into play all over the pitch. Witness the restart he plucked from mid-air on his debut in the Autumn. For somebody who appears so physically unimposing he is a real athlete.
I recall Graham Henry once explaining why he was looking at Bryn Evans a few years back, stating that Evans was just very competent at his core duties (I think injuries played a part too), and how vital that was at the highest level.
The point remains: the higher up the game you go, the simpler it becomes. Those who exceed do the basics well under duress consistently.
Launchbury falls into this category. He is incredibly solid on defensive restarts, and very aggressive on offensive restarts. He is becoming increasingly strong in the lineout (without really challenging the opposition yet) under the tutelage of Marco Wentzel, but he really comes into his own in broken play.
Launchbury is a superb support runner, a good carrier with deft hands and an understanding of space, and he has a very high defensive work rate. In fact his work rate is simply phenomenal all over the pitch, and he is good tempered with it. No more of the lethargic attempts to roll away from tackles like Deacon used to, or flopping all over the ball.
The main difference between the two is that Launchbury plays the game with his head up, whereas Deacon used to play it with his head down.
Due to injury, Mouritz Botha has been promoted to the Elite Player Squad. Apart from being an honest trier there’s not really a great deal to say about Botha. He’s not the biggest four lock, and his skills are poor. It didn’t surprise me to see him fudge the final restart against South Africa in the Autumn.
With Launchbury looking to have cemented himself into the four jersey, Geoff Parling is most definitely the owner of the five jersey. Parling played every minute of the recent Autumn Tests, and is now one of the key men despite having only 12 caps.
Like his natural predecessor Ben Kay, Parling was a latecomer to Test rugby, playing for the unfashionable Newcastle Falcons prior to his move to the Midlands, but like Kay he is a lineout intellectual who calls the same for England.
A comparatively callow physique suggests that Parling should be restricted solely to lineout duties, but he does actually carry the ball surprisingly well. He runs good angles, is all knees and elbows, and often gets over the gain line, and his cover tackling is excellent too. He is an unheralded player, but is the front runner to start in the five jersey for the Lions. He and Launchbury are exceptionally busy as a pair.
Unfortunately, apart from the ageing Tom Palmer, there aren’t any immediate candidates to add depth to the 5 position. Were Parling to become injured there would be a huge gulf in the England side.
In essence, what you have is not a particularly large tight five, but a tight five where all players are capable handlers and carriers, are strong defensively, are technically good at their basic roles, and have tremendous work ethics.
Lancaster has referred to fitness being key, as Woodward always did, and this tight five has a good combination of mobility and toughness. As players like Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Hartley, Tom Youngs, Cole, Launchbury and Lawes develop and grow together this tight five could really become something special.
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February 2nd 2013 @ 8:16am
WW said | February 2nd 2013 @ 8:16am | Report comment
Great to se an in depth critique of the english tight five. I’d be interested to hear what you make of their back row in particular Morgan who i rate highly. He’s the rampaging lion that the English (and the lions) need to overcome their prey this year.
a bit of advice… Ben S… its one thing to express opinions on players…. factually this piece can not really be argued with….but your piece needs a bit of flavour as well… a licence of expression if you will…. its what makes us human and its what makes the mundane and boring compelling to the reader….. not the robotic pieces and comments you tend to make.
Kind Regards and keep em coming though.
February 2nd 2013 @ 8:40am
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Yeah, again, cheers for the insults. I’m not a professional writer, hence the absence of amateur anecdotes and weak attempts at humour. Not really much of a pastiche fan myself.
February 2nd 2013 @ 10:45am
WW said | February 2nd 2013 @ 10:45am | Report comment
constructive criticism Ben S
February 2nd 2013 @ 10:58am
Colvin said | February 2nd 2013 @ 10:58am | Report comment
WW
I’m interested in your critque. It seems to me Ben did a pretty thorough job. But you suggest it needs some flavour to make it more interesting.
Can you give a few examples of what you think Ben could have added. It may help all us amateurs.
February 4th 2013 @ 7:04pm
Sky Blue Ram said | February 4th 2013 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
Ben.S
You did a great job.
Those that can, do etc etc
February 5th 2013 @ 2:36pm
Terry Kidd said | February 5th 2013 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Hahahaha …. a riposte par excellance …. that gave me a laugh …. but I do think WW’s critique was well intentioned
February 2nd 2013 @ 8:27am
Salada said | February 2nd 2013 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Ben, thems the most words you’ve ever posted in one go. Always thought of you as a shy counterpuncher. Terrific rundown, mate, and there are few on this forum who’ll challenge your on-the-spot expertise as we’re all on our boards out here looking for the perfect wave. The front five certainly is the best of the England show, then things get somewhat less than marvelous when you get to the back row. Your cappy may not make the Lions, and Big Ben needs to cement a few recent performances. Behind the scrum you need another first rate halfback, Care and Youngs can’t hack it of late but finding Farrell to replace Toby was hugely fortuitous. If 12trees does well on the weekend, could he partner Tuilagi? Foden, Brown, Goode – your mob’s looking strong. Now all they have to do is beat Ireland and France.
Let’s have your rundown of the Scots game. Assume you’ll be at Twickers in your John Bull outfit. Have a pint at the Duke of Cambridge and put it on Spiro’s tab.
February 2nd 2013 @ 8:55am
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Going to have to respectfully disagree there with some points: the blindside spot is held down by Croft, a proven world class performer, and Wood, who has shown he has the potential to be world class. Robshaw, IMO, is very underrated at what he does. It’s all too easy for the media to portray him as this gallant and silent English leader who lacks real ability, but game after game his stats are impeccable, and he actually has had some very good performances at the breakdown. In many ways he’s the English Dusautoir, but with improved jackal skills. I’d certainly rate him higher than Warburton ATM. However, beyond Robshaw there is nobody really pushing any buttons at 7. Agree re: Morgan. He’s an excellent carrier and has soft hands, but can he play 5 physical Tests in a row?
I’m a huge fan of Care and Youngs. I think they were excellent in South Africa in the summer and good in the Autumn. The main issue for them is that they like to play off a 10 (Evans and Flood), and Farrell is never going to be that man. Equally, Barritt has never been on the same wavelength of Youngs who likes to crab across the pitch looking for inside balls to forwards or half-gaps. The balance still isn’t there.
I’m unsure of Farrell. It’s all well and good having composure and a good boot, but his width of passing, timing of passing and vision is lacking. Nearly every good attacking game we have seen from England since 2003 has come with Flood at 10. We can’t just expect to monster sides at the breakdown in every game and play from there because rugby is still a game based on raw emotion and one side will always be more aggressive or physical than the other. To that extent I’m glad 12Trees is in there. We need more at 12, and I hope he could be that man. Barritt is a humble, decent bloke, and he gives his all, but unless he puts together some better performances then effectively he is simply keeping the jersey warm.
Not sure on the Scotland game. Their front five is pretty big, and if the weather is bad then I could see the England pack being dragged into a dogfight and really struggling (especially in the scrum). That said, our kicking game should be better than the Scots, and Ruaridh Jackson might struggle physically if his channel is targeted, which I assume it will be. I also think the Scotland back row is a bit one-dimensional, and Kelly Brown is nobodies idea of a 7.
In the backs I would think England have the edge: Scott is solid, but nothing more, and Lamont, despite being a powerful carrier, has terrible hands, so how much ball will the wings see and how much will Barritt be challenged at 13? Visser is a real threat, and Hogg is a livewire, but then so is Goode, and with him and 12Trees there there are 3 playmakers on the pitch for England. I also think we have a far more dynamic bench than the Scots. It could be very close, but then equally I wouldn’t be surprised to see England win by 10-15.
Equally, Scotland have a new coach, and the pressure is off them, so who knows? They have a dangerous back 3 (although for all the talk of Maitland he is an unknown quantity at this level), a physical midfield pairing and a monster pack. In wet conditions this could be 2000 (was it 2000?) all over again. Can’t wait.
No ale for me either – new puppy in the house, and still on my New Year’s resolution… Damn you, New Year!
February 2nd 2013 @ 11:58am
ScotandProud said | February 2nd 2013 @ 11:58am | Report comment
I agree with all those points.
Ive mentioned the Scots shortcomings in another thread. The only real question mark is Marler: he may become the genuine article in time I think the question is how will he fair against Euan Murray today?
February 2nd 2013 @ 12:11pm
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
And Euan Murray has James Hamilton behind him too. It’s a serious tight five. However, as always it will come down to the referee. Marler could get skinned and end up with penalties flowing in his favour. All things being equal Murray should have the clear edge over him.
I’m more interested to see how Ryan Grant fares. I’d put him up there with Healy and Corbisiero as the top 3 looseheads vying for the final Lions squad. I’ve also noticed that Johnson has made him a vice captain despite having so few caps.
February 2nd 2013 @ 4:46pm
Hightackle said | February 2nd 2013 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
I disagree about both Barritt and Farrell and imo its the old story of wanting attacking rugby without considering other parts of rugby.
Barritt is an outstanding defender who gives his all. He may not break the line every game but how many times does he prevent his own line being broken?
Farrell has won games for Eng and his club with the boot. That is a massive attribute in itself. His kicking from hand is good and he is better than most 10s in defence. His passing game will come. He is only 21, when he is 25 it will be fair to judge his passing game considering Nonu didnt get his right until about 26 or 27.
I really dont agree with all this stuff about “needing” another Shaw or “needing” another ball player.
For me if it works, thats what you need. I see no point in wanting to constantly fiddle with the team in hopes of a perfect unit becuz that doesnt exist.
Having Farrell at 10 and Barritt at 12 causes teams to change gameplans and the way they play. If you give away penalties Farrell will punish you and running at the centre is frustrating and fruitless.
February 2nd 2013 @ 11:45pm
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
It’s not a case of wanting attacking rugby without the rest etc at all. I’m fully aware of the need to go straight before going wide, but anybody who has watched England and Saracens over the past two years would find it hard to disagree that both Farrell and Barritt are incompetent as attacking players. Barritt isn’t even a punishing defender either. He’s strong, and a good cover tackler, but he’s no SBW. Also, his carrying is very underwhelming. Hape was a far superior option both defensively and in his ability to off-load. Realistically Barritt isn’t even near being one of the better 12s in the Heineken Cup.
I don’t think comparing Farrell to Nonu is a fair comparison, because Nonu is a 12 and he was able to compensate for his poor skills with his physicality. Further, NZ had Carter to direct them. Farrell is the fulcrum of the team, and his weaknesses prevent the backs from flourishing. Nonu was an exception. Very few other 12s are promoted to Test rugby with an inability to pass and pass well. It’s shocking that Farrell has got to this level with such poor basic passing skills.
Neither player causes teams to change their game plans.
February 3rd 2013 @ 3:56am
Hightackle said | February 3rd 2013 @ 3:56am | Report comment
What a fantastic defensive 12 and a pin point kicker dont change the way teams play against them?
Yes they do. Do you really think opposition coaches just dismiss the oppositions strengths? Dude they pay attention and its clear you are forgetting what players offer besides defence.
Farrells passing is nowhere near as bad as you make out and Barritt is nowhere near as bad as you make out.
I think thats why they are in the team Ben. Ya think?
February 3rd 2013 @ 6:47am
Ben.S said | February 3rd 2013 @ 6:47am | Report comment
Farrell isn’t a pinpoint kicker, hence he was dropped during the SA Tests. His kicking has improved vastly over the past few months.
If you think sides change the way they play against Farrell and Barritt then I see no room for serious discussion, and if you’re going to use one excellent pass from Farrell to suggest he somehow has an attacking game then I suggest you’re disingenuously ignoring the fact that Twelvetrees has in one game shown the serious and consistent attacking limitations of Barritt.
February 3rd 2013 @ 4:07am
Hightackle said | February 3rd 2013 @ 4:07am | Report comment
Farrell was nominated for IRB player of the year and was very good against NZ and as I watch he is also very good against Scot and that includes his passing.
February 3rd 2013 @ 4:14am
Hightackle said | February 3rd 2013 @ 4:14am | Report comment
And Farrell just put Parling in with a 20 metre skip pass.
February 3rd 2013 @ 4:41am
Hightackle said | February 3rd 2013 @ 4:41am | Report comment
Farrell motm too. I rest my case.
February 3rd 2013 @ 4:52am
Jerry said | February 3rd 2013 @ 4:52am | Report comment
“Farrell was nominated for IRB player of the year”
Which was an absolute joke.
February 3rd 2013 @ 4:59am
Hightackle said | February 3rd 2013 @ 4:59am | Report comment
The award has always been a bit iffy Jerry but non the less he was a nominee.
For me he is clearly the best option for Eng. I thought Billy did enough to give Lancaster a few headaches.
I wouldnt mind seeing Manu and Billy team up at some stage.
February 3rd 2013 @ 5:05am
Jerry said | February 3rd 2013 @ 5:05am | Report comment
It has, but the nominee list last year was even more random than usual.
February 2nd 2013 @ 9:03am
nickoldschool said | February 2nd 2013 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Great in depth review, thanks for that Ben.
I have always been a fan of short-stocky hookers and Youngs fits the bill. He is the type of player who can have a 20m burst on the blind side and i think he will bring a lot of dynamism to England. On the other hand, I dont understand why Courtney Lawes isnt in the starting XV. I havent seen him at club level this year and dunno if he is 100% fit (i guess he is to make the squad) but for me he is the kind of 2nd row you guys need in the next few years. He was really impressive until 2011 and i believe he lost his spot due to injury? Dunno much about his replacement and happy to be proven wrong.
February 2nd 2013 @ 9:16am
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Cheers. After the Springbok Test in 2010 Martin Johnson decided that the tight five needed to be … tighter. Hence the selection of Louis Deacon and the dropping of Lawes to the bench – although Lawes did resurface in the 5 jersey during the 2011 World Cup. Problematically Lawes is neither a 4 lock or a 5 lock. He does a little bit of both without being especially dominant come re-start time or in the lineout. I would also assume, given his slight frame, that he isn’t the heaviest scrummager. He’s definitely a very good athlete, but it’s hard to see how he’s developed his game since he burst on to the scene in that famous win over Australia in the summer (and Autumn) of 2010. However, like you say his progression has been interrupted by constant injuries. This is a big season for him given the performance of Launchbury in the Autumn. Lawes hasn’t been helped by the form of his club either, although he has looked strong following his injury comeback. Try and pay special attention to Launchbury if you have the means or time this 6N. I think he’s a very special player.
February 2nd 2013 @ 9:31am
nickoldschool said | February 2nd 2013 @ 9:31am | Report comment
yep, all games are live on ESPN in oz.
As a french, i have always had admiration (and hatred) towards England’s 2nd rowers (Ackford, Dooley, Johnson etc) and they are the reason why we started hating England (in a sporting way) more than the other anglo teams in the late 80s early nineties. When i saw Lawes a few years ago i felt ‘oh, not again” as he had this mongrel about him than only saffas 2nd rows seem to have (besides English ones).
Anyway, looking forward to tonight’s game. I know most southerners do not enjoy the 6N but even far from home i still do. Love the RC for the quality of the games but the 6N is more of an emotional affair imo.
February 2nd 2013 @ 11:11am
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 11:11am | Report comment
I recall reading about Benazzi being scared of Dooley, this giant policeman, when he was just starting out his Test career. Conversely, I’ve always been a big fan of French locks since I’ve been a young man. I thought Pelous was an awesome player, and just caught the end of Benazzi’s career from 1999 onwards. I was a huge fan of Nallet too. IMO one of the most underrated players.
Lawes has just had some really unfortunately timed injuries, but such is life. Recalling his performance against Bourgoin a few seasons back he is exactly the sort of person who would remind of the forward battles of the early 90s and onwards between France and England. I love le crunch. With the front five that PSA has selected it could be a brutal game this year.
February 2nd 2013 @ 11:27am
nickoldschool said | February 2nd 2013 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Was a teen during the Ackford-Dooley years and the French media portrayed them as the ultimate enforcers! And the fact one was a cop added to the myth.
For years we always had these hybrid locks in France who could play 2nd row, 6 or 8, Benazzi being the best example, also cecillion if I remember well, or even Chabal. Really rate Nallet too. but the bloke I remember the most was Merle, the guy we called ‘ the man and a half’. He was our first 2nd row monster. Then we had Brouzet who was also a big lad but just not like Merle who was a giant from the Massif Central and also a tough bloke who didn’t mind a punch up.
Agree that this year’s game should be special, especially if both teams are 2-0 which I expect.
February 2nd 2013 @ 11:37am
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Brouzet was huge, as was Merle. I’d forgotten all about him.
Yeah, Cecillon was shifted to lock on occasion, as was Chabal, and Pelous played at 6 and 8 too. Of the current squad Chouly can cover lock. Then in the back row there’s been players like Magne, Chabal, Harinordoquy and Bonnaire who have all played 6, 7 and 8. Funnily enough, one of my favourite backrows of all time was the Stade backrow of Moni-Pool Jones-Juillet.
Actually, Nick, Paul Ackford was police too. I believe he was a detective, whereas Dooley just patrolled the streets.
February 2nd 2013 @ 1:21pm
jeznez said | February 2nd 2013 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
No Roumat in that list? I know he played in the back row a bit but I thought he was an excellent French lock
February 2nd 2013 @ 10:19pm
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Not interested in skinny 5 locks, Jez…
February 5th 2013 @ 2:51pm
Terry Kidd said | February 5th 2013 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Ben I remember you approx 4-5 years ago lauding the coming of Lawes. He appears to have slipped markedly in your estimation. Why?
February 6th 2013 @ 10:18am
Ben.S said | February 6th 2013 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Injuries basically. Also, would have likely been around 2010, Terry as that was when he was making his club breakthrough. Also, following the SA Test in 2010 Johnson decided that England needed a tighter 4 lock. He filled the 5 jersey on occasion, but he has always struggled with injuries, and then in the WC he was suspended for his hit on Ledesma. Thereafter he has been injury prone again, only partly participating in last years 6N and missing the tour to SA in the summer.
February 2nd 2013 @ 9:45am
Salada said | February 2nd 2013 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Ben – Croft has no bigger fan than me, so you have one third of a great back row, two thirds if Wood shines. Robbo’s problem is that this is the Year of the Back Rows. I can’t see him beating out anybody for the Lions job. Kelly Brown probably won’t make the trip so there’s two captains who may not be going. Three if BOD, instead of being made Lions skipper, doesn’t make the cutoff. Agree about Barritt, but then until Tuilagi came along England hasn’t had a midfield threat since – speak memory – although I know you were a fan of the two Kiwis you employed. Few other people were. Farrell will win games with his penalty kicking. Flood can do that too but most of the England fans I talk to put him up against Carter/Michalak/Sexton and find him comparatively ineffective. As for halfbacks for a lot of us southerners Smith/Weepu/Genia play way different to Youngs/Care whose style isn’t our bag.
Re the Scots game, I know you don’t want to jinx it which is why you’re being cautious. But you’ll win by 12 points easy.
February 2nd 2013 @ 3:57pm
Hightackle said | February 2nd 2013 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Englands backrow was a strength in the end of year tests and got the better of SA, NZ and Aust imo.
February 2nd 2013 @ 4:07pm
Hightackle said | February 2nd 2013 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Also Smith is not really similar to Genia or Weepu and I think he is actually more similar to Care and Youngs. Weepu and Genia are composed controllers of the ball whereas Smith is a nippy feeder of the ball.
Smith is not my bag and Im a Kiwi. His defence is rubbish and he responds poorly to pressure and in unfavorable circumstances.
February 2nd 2013 @ 9:58am
Salada said | February 2nd 2013 @ 9:58am | Report comment
NICKOLDSCHOOL – I’m one southie who really likes the 6N but then I spent a lot of years living in England and a couple if France.
With you on the English lock bit – apart from POC there hasn’t been a fearsome enforcer in European rugby since Shaw. Re Lawes – haven’t seen too many forwards who can step right and nail Giteau as he did in that game.
February 2nd 2013 @ 10:50am
nickoldschool said | February 2nd 2013 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Out of curiosity, who would you (and other SH boys) barrack for in the 6N? Is it based on family heritage, just the quality of rugby played, your experience of these 2 countries when you were there or none of the above?
Good on you for enjoying both rugby!
February 2nd 2013 @ 1:25pm
jeznez said | February 2nd 2013 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
I’ve got Scottish heritage so always have a soft spot for them. Unfortunately with them so far the pecking order of late they are hard to barrack for. Most of us Aussies have a chip on our shoulder about good ol’ mother England so we tend to cheer for anyone but them.
February 2nd 2013 @ 4:27pm
nickoldschool said | February 2nd 2013 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Yeo I got that straight away, no love for the mother nation!, that’s why am fitting well when it comes to rugby!
February 2nd 2013 @ 6:08pm
GWS said | February 2nd 2013 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
Whoever is playing the poms
February 2nd 2013 @ 7:32pm
Hightackle said | February 2nd 2013 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
I will be supporting Ireland becuz I really like the Irish players and the attitude of their team. Best, Healy, Ryan, O’Brien and Ferris in the forward pack and Kearney, O’Driscoll, Bowe, Gilroy, Sexton and a few others in the backs…whats not to like?
I think England will just win the 6 nats but I would like to see Ire win it. I think they will go very close too.
ENG
IRE
FRA
WAL
SCOT
ITAL
February 2nd 2013 @ 11:59am
Salada said | February 2nd 2013 @ 11:59am | Report comment
NICK – I found it hard to cheer for England because the rugby was so stodgy. Rob Andrew was fly half and the ball seldom got past him. David Dodge played outside him and if Andrew did do something unexpected, like pass him the pill, Dodge kicked it. This was the era in which Rory Underwood, very fast and with a great swerve, went tryless for umpteen internationals. Roger Baird, the Scots winger, went something like 21 tests without crossing. A little later David Trick came along, probably the fastest winger rugby union ever produced (allowing for differences in track surfaces and timing techniques, Australia’s Johnny Bliss, a leaguie, was the fastest ever in either code) but the English selectors saw no value in a man who could beat everyone to the corner and dropped him after two games. But they kept Andrew at fly of course, and all of Twickers would boo him. So I switched alliances to France partly because of Benazzi and Champ and Sella and the great Serge Blanco. Still root for France, but I`d like England to do well because I`m a fan of Lancaster. And I hope Wales comes out of its dreadful slump.
BEN – I replied to your post but it may be held up by the editors for some reason. Tautology perhaps.
February 2nd 2013 @ 12:12pm
nickoldschool said | February 2nd 2013 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
yep good explanation.
I actually like Lancaster too and am glad he retained the job. Talking about wings’s draughts, Rokocoko has not scored one single try in 18 months at Bayonne. It seems its now more of a laughing matter between players than a taboo subject. He was quite philosophical about it really. Plus he is now playing in the centres and apparently doing very well. Champ was such an old school type of player. the way he faced the haka during the 1987 rwc final at eden park, brilliant.
February 2nd 2013 @ 12:33pm
FTR said | February 2nd 2013 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Tremendous analysis, Ben.
This English tight five does indeed have the makings of an excellent unit, but if there’s one thing lacking then it’s surely a Simon Shaw, Bakkies Botha or Brad Thorn-style enforcer at 4 who scrummages like a demon and hits rucks relentlessly. Launchbury is a wonderful player but I do wonder whether he might perhaps lack a little grunt in a slugfest, especially when paired with the slender Parling.
I recommend Ian McGeechan’s tactical analysis piece in The Telegraph (available on its website now) in which he makes the point that the English pack lacks upper body muscle, making them vulnerable in narrow, attritional games. I think there’s something in this. The only real forward brutes in the squad are Robshaw and Haskell, imo – the rest of the forwards boast superb athleticism, work-rate and technical skills, but lack heft. (Morgan is a big man, admittedly, but he’s not especially aggressive in defence).
I think George Kruis is someone who could add size in the near future – and, perhaps further down the line, the enormous George Merrick of Harlequins could do so to an even greater extent.
February 2nd 2013 @ 4:20pm
Hightackle said | February 2nd 2013 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
I cant recall England being bullied whilst playing Fra, Wal, Aust, NZ or Ire in 2012 so I dont see why a lack of punch or power in the tight five is considered as an issue. SA had about 15 minutes of putting Eng to the sword before Eng found their feet but in most games against the best teams in the world it has been Eng looking the stronger up front hasnt it?
February 4th 2013 @ 7:13am
Ben.S said | February 4th 2013 @ 7:13am | Report comment
After reading this I did check out McGeechan’s piece, FTR, and I actually disagreed with a lot of what he said. I know this is heresy, but IMHO he is out of touch with the reality of the game, and has been for a good few years now.
I agree that England lacks a Thorn or Botha, but then we’ve never really had one since Johnson and then Deacon (albeit briefly). Shaw for all his ability at the maul was never a ruck donkey in the style of Botha. At the moment I think the pack has the right balance of mobility and grit, with Wood able to reinforce the ruck work of Launchbury and Parling. Look how badly off the pace Hamilton looked yesterday? That said, it’s a fine margin, however, England did match the Springboks physically in the Autumn, and Hartley returning (and possibly Corbisiero too) will add to the side physically. With Launchbury and Lawes yet to really fill out I think England will be OK, but I would also like to see Tom Savage mature into the Brad Thorn role.
I like Kruis, and I noticed how big he looked during the Saxons game on Friday, but personally i see him more of a 5.
I’ll check out Merrick. Cheers for the headsup.
February 2nd 2013 @ 1:33pm
jeznez said | February 2nd 2013 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Nice piece Ben. I have a lot of admiration for Cole and Launchbury in your tight five along with Wood and Morgan in your back row. Vunipola looked like he might have something if they get him fit and I will reserve judgement on Marler until I see him play a game uninjured – hopefully tonight.
Real shame that Corbisiero is injured as he is a real talent.
I will throw a fit Benn Robinson (rarely seen I know) up there in the ball pilfering prop stakes. He finally got fit by the last game of his season against the Welsh and had a field day.
February 2nd 2013 @ 10:21pm
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
True. Robinson is good over the ball. But it’s easier for him – he’s a little pudding.
February 2nd 2013 @ 2:11pm
Jiggles said | February 2nd 2013 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Nice write up mate. As Jez says not having Corbisiero is going to be a loss and it makes the front look a lot weaker IMO. Marler may have it one day, but right now he seems to struggle a bit at test level. If he looses the hit in the scrum he lacks the technique to recover. I like Murray as a THP so it’ll be a tough test for the young lad.
If you ignore all the hate from kiwis regarding Hartley (how dare he be physical against the mighty All Blacks!!!) you’ll see he’s actually developed into a crafty hooker who is more than good enough at this level. He does the little things in defence that I like from front row players plus he is very aggressive with ball in hand.
Lastly I can’t wait to see how Launchbury will go against Gray. Both are outstanding players however I think Launchbury has more classical second row skills and I really love his defensive workrate that you mention. There’s been lots of talk about Etzebeth bursting onto the scene this year, however I think Launchbury is already a superior player with far more upside.
As a side note I don’t really have a team this year. I only hope that Wales get dusted. Gatland is a pr*<k and their fans are delusional.
February 2nd 2013 @ 10:31pm
Ben.S said | February 2nd 2013 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Funnily enough I was reading about Dan Cole the other day, and Corbisiero said that one of his strong points was that he didn’t panic if he lost the hit. That he simply rode it out. It’s a fair point you make re: Marler. Today is a huge test of his abilities. Murray is a beast of a prop, although he’s way off his 2009 form IMO.
I think Hartley has improved immeasurably this season. I used to see his name on the teamsheet and cringe, but obviously Johnson and Rowntree saw something in him and persevered. Not to forget his club coach, Dorian West. Physically he’ll never be a Bismarck or a TPN or even a Matthew Rees, but he’s really grown into the role, and he’s taking on the Lawrence Dallaglio role, “What, me ref?”, of slowing down ball, getting into the faces of the opposition and generally being a pest, but like Dallaglio he can play too.
Classical 2nd row skills is a very good way to put it. I think that sums up Launchbury very well. I was considering making the same point re: Etzebeth, but he’s a bit of a sore point with some posters… Gray has a great work rate too, but sometimes he’s a bit headless chicken, but then I think that’s the nature of playing the underdog role. You want to chase everything rather than being smart and efficient. What hasn’t helped Gray’s cause is joining a failing club in England, Sale Sharks. It’s an absolute graveyard of a club.
I’m bored of Gatland too. Constant media guff – first Wales have great depth, then in the Autumn they lacked depth due to injuries. Then they were the fittest side in the world, and now their work in Poland has fatigued them. Just boring. That’s why I always liked Johnson when he was in charge. He was blunt and honest. Lancaster is the same, but with a bit more charm perhaps. Same with PSA and Kidney.
February 3rd 2013 @ 1:33am
Jiggles said | February 3rd 2013 @ 1:33am | Report comment
Murray is an experienced scrummager and he is going to use every trick in the book to convince Rolland that Marler is out of his depth. That performance against Australia was criticised by a number of pundits rather publicly, so he’ll be under the microscope tonight and I have no faith in Rolland’s skill calling the scrum. I really can’t wait for this match up.
Just watching Wales get thumped, I’ve been banging on about how overrated their players are but I didn’t think they were this woeful. Best is having an awesome game and O’Brien is playing all over Warburton.
February 3rd 2013 @ 10:45pm
Ben.S said | February 3rd 2013 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
And the England front row did their job. Pleased with that.
Wales got proper whacked. Obviously their 2nd half-performance is going to inspire the usual ‘we have the ability’ chat from the coaching panel like we heard after the NZ game in November. Obviously they do have some excellent players, but IMO they are so badly coached it’s a farce. Can’t wait to see Howley and Gatland in tandem on the Lions tour.
I think Rory Best is such a good player. For an oddly built fellow he’s just got that natural understanding of the game, of where to be and when.
Still shocked Warburton is being selected ahead of Tipuric.
February 3rd 2013 @ 11:12pm
Jiggles said | February 3rd 2013 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
Sure did. Like I said to Colin I think Marler did well.
I really hope Warburton is picked as your Lions captain… Really really hope.
February 4th 2013 @ 12:44am
Ben.S said | February 4th 2013 @ 12:44am | Report comment
I wouldn’t even have him in the squad. Howley is so out of his depth it’s a bit shocking tbh.
February 4th 2013 @ 12:55am
Jiggles said | February 4th 2013 @ 12:55am | Report comment
Ha, I agree. I just hope Gatland disagrees with both of us.
Howley is out of his depth, but just going over a few forum I think there is a bit of tah syndrome going on. Wales fans really rate their players despite very obvious flaws, so it must be the coaches fault and only the coaches fault.
Mind you I suffer a bit from this when it comes to Deans and the Wobs…
I wasn’t going to stay up for France, but your boys results last night have got me intrigued.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:11am
Ben.S said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:11am | Report comment
I do think Wales have some very good players, but IMHO the coaches aren’t getting the best out of them tactically, and I think that both Gatland and Howley are bad selectors. I know the Lions is a different kettle of fish, but the Welsh players excelled on that tour. ATM (And the past few seasons) they have been playing very rigid rugby (in contrast to the regions). Even Martyn Williams came out recently and stated that Welsh flair was a myth as the Test side tried to grind sides down. It’s a waste of talent. They have some very natural footballers, probably far more than England. Reminds me of Deans and the Wallabies, which might be one of the reasons why the two sides have such close matches.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:19am
Jiggles said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:19am | Report comment
How do you think Zebo did? Yes that footwork was magic, but he was rather average for the rest of the game. I don’t rate either Visser or Maitland this weekend but i think they both played better wing games. I don’t think he got over North or cuthbert either, and apart from Norths line for his try both we’re average.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:31am
Jiggles said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:31am | Report comment
Hmm I agree in part. I do think Gatland and Howley are poor selectors (and ill add coaches), but I also think Wales are living in a bit of dream land when it comes to talent. For arguments sake if it came down to me picking an England and Wales team I’d probe take Jones (just), faletau (although I don’t rate him normally), and Roberts.
As for the myth bit, well that’s almost as big as the Australian running rugby myth.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:32am
Ben.S said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:32am | Report comment
I don’t think any wingers put out a special performance this weekend tbh. I was impressed with Ashton because he came off his wing a lot.
Re: Zebo he’s solid under the high ball and is a very dangerous finisher. He’s still developing but doesn’t have a great roaming game like Ashton does. I’d still take him on the Lions tour, as the Ireland side seems to be on an upward tangent from last season so the side is bedding in together if you know what I mean.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:47am
Ben.S said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:47am | Report comment
The Welsh side moved it around under Ruddock, and the regions tend to look to play expansively, but Gatland is a conservative man. All things being equal I’d consider Rees, Adam Jones, Davies, Evans, Charteris, Lydiate, Tipuric, Faletau, Roberts, Davies, North and Halfpenny as very, very good players, but the backs are being restricted by the tactics. Mike Phillips keeps getting selected despite the fact his service has been ponderously slow basically since he debuted. He takes a step, does some little arm shuffle and ships the ball out. He just can’t be dropped, even though his fitness is clearly sub-par due to his time in France. Same with Warbuton. He’s turning into the Welsh Steve Borthwick, and look how England kicked on once he was dropped/injured.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:56am
Jiggles said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:56am | Report comment
You’re a more generous man then me when it comes to the Welsh players. I guess for me it comes down to who has and has not performed against a lmited Australian team under Deans. A lot of those players have not performed against Australia where as a few of those English have. On Ashton, I agree he was busy… But gosh he grates me! Not necessarily a bad thing mind you.
February 4th 2013 @ 1:58am
Jiggles said | February 4th 2013 @ 1:58am | Report comment
Also not to sure on Ireland. They seem to fall apart when Wales played wide at speed.
February 2nd 2013 @ 4:40pm
ScotandProud said | February 2nd 2013 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
Olivier Roumat was so gangly he looked like a cartoon but what a player, he and Benazzi regularly get picked in World XVs of that era.
For me though Wade Dooley was synonomous with big arrogant bullying England. I think Ackford was the better player but you can keep your Gary Whettons your Bakkies Bothas your Martin Johnsons and your Brad Thorns ; Wade Dooley would be first second row into my fantasy team if he were available. What a hard nut and he could play as well.. He had the same importance as Buck Shelford for England.
Olivier Merle was just a hard nut in comparison, he didnt have the skills Dooley did.