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Can the Boks make me angry again?

Jonty Shonty Roar Rookie

By Jonty Shonty, Jonty Shonty is a Roar Rookie New author!

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    I bumped into a former school mate over the weekend. “Did you see the rugby?”, I asked him reluctantly.

    “I don’t watch the Boks anymore”, he replied, “I get too upset.” (I may have cleaned this conversation up a bit)

    This made me reflect upon my own mood after watching the Boks get pipped by our ‘traditional rivals’ the night before.

    I found I wasn’t angry – I was almost accepting. And I think that’s reflective of the decreasing expectations I have for the Springboks.

    I used to get angry when we lost to the All Blacks. I got angry because I always thought we were good enough to beat them, and sometimes we were! But we’re not good enough anymore.

    We’re good enough to beat the French and the Pumas. I’d be angry if we lost to them. We’re good enough to beat the Wallabies, and I’d be angry if we lost to them, particularly at home. England? Na, not good enough. Not angry. Move on.

    All this talk about a Springboks and All Blacks rivalry is a load of rubbish. A rivalry is competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field. The All Blacks have won 14 of the last 16 Tests against the Springboks.

    We’re not competing for the same objective, and we’re certainly not in the same field. 0 is one field, and 57 is another in a galaxy far, far away.

    Right now the Springboks are scrapping away in a pack of five teams all below the two teams that are at the top of the leader board. That’s the field we’re in.

    Lowering expectations can help ease the pain – and my fellow Springbok fans I know you’re hurting – but I think that’s how I’m going to deal with this for now.

    In 2017 this team gave us a glimmer of hope, and it made us believe again. But that’s all been wiped away by a catastrophic performance in Albany. They need to respond… or make me angry again.

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    The Crowd Says (146)

    • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:16am
      Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:16am | ! Report

      Hi Jonty.
      Mate from what we outside the Republic have observed, & been told to us, South Africans, have no one to blame but themselves, for allowing this utterly ridiculous, government imposed Quota System to be enforced upon you. Why are the politician running the game, when it SHOULD be the job of the supposedly ruling body, the South African Rugby Union? To not, being able to select the best players available, in the the required positions they play, is totally degrading, for the game as a whole.
      Politicians & Sport do not MIX, as the only thing that politicians are good at, is telling lies, feathering their own pockets, & totally stuffing things up, amongst other things.
      The SARU, & the people of South Africa, need to stand up & rid the politicians from the game, as it is they, who are making our game, your game, look bad. Cheers.

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:33am
        taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:33am | ! Report

        gee, I’ll bet thats way easier said than done.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:37am
          Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:37am | ! Report

          True T/man, but it would work, as it did those many moons ago.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:50am
            taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:50am | ! Report

            Well, that’s one view… I dont think it did work many moons ago, we just had to tolerate and in some cases, unbelievably, support, a rac”cist regime.

            Those days are long gone, its now about picking up the pieces. We wouldn’t have the current situation has it not been for he past, it is what it is…

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:56am
              Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:56am | ! Report

              To a certain extent, it is still very much, as it was in the past.. Madiba, himself did things that seemed to change so many things, but now it it’s in reverse.

            • September 24th 2017 @ 6:06pm
              hopalong said | September 24th 2017 @ 6:06pm | ! Report

              T.Man.So” time pastt has become time present” Perhaps time future??/ After 23 years of payback in all areas of life.???.The world cup team in2019 has to include 10 black players.
              Not player of colour,but negroid.There is a distinction.
              Rugby is a game which I love.After 65 years of avid support for SB,s I decided 2 years ago to
              no longer watch them playSad,but liberating..

              • September 24th 2017 @ 6:25pm
                Taylorman said | September 24th 2017 @ 6:25pm | ! Report

                Oh look its all sad, neither is good, but it also wasnt our fault either. We had to put up with a lot just to support the regime of the past.

                We were told not to bring certain players on tour. The Boks even wanted us not play Maori here, in our own country!

                Whole continents boycotted us as the Olympics, the country was divided in 81 so that our own were throwing bottles and beating up our own in our own streets, all in that period of bliss and avid support you call in the last 65 years.

                Were you out publicly protesting apartheid or did you leave it to countries like us to finally say enough is enough and send you in to isolation until you sorted it out. Thankfully, one Nelson Mandela was fast gaining favour.

                Thats why have little sympathy for those who prospered under the old regime who now complain today. That regime created this mess. Power of running the country suddenly went to a large number of people who have no idea how to run it.

                And still dont.

                So yes, its bad now, and it was worse then, but its up to SA to sort it out, weve done our bit, and really dont feel like doing it all over again.

              • Roar Guru

                September 24th 2017 @ 10:13pm
                biltongbek said | September 24th 2017 @ 10:13pm | ! Report

                T’man as much as I understnd your stance on this I find your stance hypocritical as well.

                Two wrongs don’t make a right.

                And as much as I accept tranformation is necessary, when you leave it up to the wrong individuals they will F that up as well.

              • September 25th 2017 @ 9:15pm
                Taylorman said | September 25th 2017 @ 9:15pm | ! Report

                Yes Biltong I know two wrongs dont make a right, but this was inevitable and its source was the previous regime.

                If the previous generations of those in power now had had the same rights and privileges, same opportunities in politics for example, the country might now have a very different political outlook.

                But put in power all of a sudden those who’s forebearers knew nothing but suffering and restrictions, for one theyre going to have no idea how to be politically or economically astute, let alone apply an appropriate fairness to all people. Thats just a pipe dream.

                Pain must come first and controversial as it might seem but theres the thinking that Mandelas tolerance and reconciliation approach ‘robbed’ the country of what it needed to make real change.

                I dont think its being hypocritical, both regimes are bad, but one definitely gave rise to the other.

                And I know many other African nations are in worse positions, which makes the ‘white man running an African country’ unique. But it was done in such a non compromising way that it was always going to end in tears.

                The shoe doesnt fit now, the people, their beliefs, their cultures are far too different to just ‘work’. Its just a very unique scenario where that ‘pain’ missing previously is now being drawn out in many forms.

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:00am
        Jonty Shonty said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:00am | ! Report

        Muzzo I do wish it was that easy, but unfortunately it’s a reality we have to manage. Honestly I think we’ll actually get there with having a truly diverse team that’s reflective of the make up of South Africa. There’s decent talent coming through that I feel it will happen organically. The coaching and system that supports them is the issue.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:53am
          Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:53am | ! Report

          Sure Jonty, you do have the talent there, as it was very prevalent during the World Series Blitzbokke’s achievements in last seasons Seven’s series title win, with some of those players carrying on into Super Rugby.
          What I see as very disappointing, is that they are neglecting,the best talent available for the national squad, at 15’s.

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:11am
        SJ said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:11am | ! Report

        Muzzo, I’m not sure you understand the political landscape of SA particularly well if you believe that some sort of strike against quotas could persuade the government to change their stance.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:55am
          Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:55am | ! Report

          No SJ, not strikes, but in the form of protests or petitions, might wake these people up. Just saying.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 12:55pm
            SJ said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:55pm | ! Report

            Same, same. Won’t matter. There is talk of litigation driven by a group called Afriforum but I have little doubt that the government would gladly accept a World Rugby ban rather than abolish its transformation program. Best we can hope for (and it will happen sooner or later) is that enough worthy black players come through as soon as possible. Unfortunately it’s then quite possible that the targets will keep shifting…

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 1:00pm
              SJ said | September 22nd 2017 @ 1:00pm | ! Report

              I’d also add that the current problems can’t just be blamed on quotas. Selections are just mind-numbingly bad. You could easily maintain current demographics yet vastly improve quality by bringing in Combrinck for Rhule and Gelant for Coetzee, for example.
              Francois Hougaard was, once again, SA’s worst player last week – can’t blame quotas for his selection either. Thank God he’s finally been axed.

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 5:31pm
              nickbrisbane said | September 22nd 2017 @ 5:31pm | ! Report

              I have often wondered why World Rugby allows a team that suffers political interference in its selection policy.

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 1:22am
                Taylorman said | September 23rd 2017 @ 1:22am | ! Report

                Well theyve allowed it for over a hundred odd years so far…

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 6:07pm
                DavSA said | September 23rd 2017 @ 6:07pm | ! Report

                Fifa , ICC , World Rugby … All guilty . As Tman says , It is what it is.

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 3:28pm
        sprinter_man said | September 22nd 2017 @ 3:28pm | ! Report

        I disagree. I think the quota system is a great idea. Equality in society is much more important than whether a country’s sporting team wins. If Rugby can be used as a vehicle to provide opportunities and hope for black communities then the Springboks success is a very small price to pay.

        Put things in perspective. I love Rugby as much as the next person on this forum but it’s not life and death. Black under-privilege is.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 8:48pm
          nickbrisbane said | September 22nd 2017 @ 8:48pm | ! Report

          If you want to deal with black under privilege then give him a house with running water, create a job for him, fund the education system – 99 .9 % will not be interested in being giving a free ticket into the Springbok team.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:25pm
          Alex the jock said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:25pm | ! Report

          And their self entitlement whereby they want everything for nothing and the first world bleeding hearts fall for it every time. Do you know the born free’s born after apartheid are now subjected to this racism, from sport into the work place, where by these same quotas are in force?

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:34pm
          superba said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:34pm | ! Report

          Ok Sprinter man
          Given the disdavantage of the Aborigines in Australia I guess you would sipport a quota system for the Wallabies. And how many .
          Perhaps 5 in the run on .?

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:34pm
        Alex the jock said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:34pm | ! Report

        Rumour has it the same polly bureau is after the RWC, stand against it and be heard. Say no and hit them in the pocket, the one place you can hurt them.

      • Roar Pro

        September 22nd 2017 @ 11:47pm
        robel said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:47pm | ! Report

        Leaving the running of the game to the national union wrecks it even more quickly and irretrievably.

        • September 24th 2017 @ 7:52pm
          Muzzo said | September 24th 2017 @ 7:52pm | ! Report

          Yes robel. So tell me, by making that statement, why the NZRFU, have been so successful over the years? Our government, don’t run the game!!!

      • September 24th 2017 @ 10:21pm
        Steven Benjamin said | September 24th 2017 @ 10:21pm | ! Report

        The truth is that Quota’s and Transformation ad nothing to do with the 57-0 drubbing. We were simply outclassed on the day. Quotas are always the scapegoat for when we loose. SA rugby is in a the middle of a transition period. SARU are expanding the reach of rugby within the country, and the major positive of transformation is that it broadens the talent pool within SA. A few people ave mentioned that there’s some really exciting talent coming through… Siya Kolisi is actually a product of Transformation in that a rugby clinic went out to a rural community were he was spotted/scouted and recruited to one of SA’s “rugby school’s” in the Eastern Cape.
        The reality is that for the past century the Springbok’s have played with quotas (whites only), whist the Coloured Rugby board of SA has existed since the late 1890s.
        So the reason the Boks are loosing more nowadays is due to the evolution of the game in the pro era amidst the changes within the country. Politics has always been a part of the Rugby landscape, especially after 1994, because the Springboks and Sport in general in SA is such a powerful unifying medium for a fractured nation. “Transformation” is as much a mental thing as it is an appearance thing. Heyneke Meyer predicted we would loose more games before we could “right” ourselves, but he was not referring to quotas or transformation, but to the way the game is being played. SA have just been stubborn and slow to progress with the, placing greater emphasis on brawn over brains+skills.

    • Roar Guru

      September 22nd 2017 @ 9:20am
      Ralph said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:20am | ! Report

      a Springboks and All Blacks rivalry is a load of rubbish

      If this is the new reality then those of us hanging on in the face of it are the hopeless romantics.

      At least it was given to us to live in a an age where they was a rivalry. May the shadow of it be very long and the memory of it brighten with age.

      Thanks Jonty.

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:29am
        Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:29am | ! Report

        It’s actually pretty frustrating as an Australian that the Kiwis rate the Springboks rivalry as so much harder than the Wallabies given that I think the Wallabies have pushed the All Blacks harder, or at least as hard, for most of the period since about 1997. 2009 and 13 notwithstanding.

        I hope the Boks get back to where they could be, however. It’d be great to see the Springboks as the best team in the world again.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:36am
          puff said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:36am | ! Report

          Jonty, sport is sport, hence life has to many other complexities to become disgruntled about and to be fair, the AB’s are a polished act. Accordingly, the SA media have been critical as rugby is a game of opportunities and on this issue SA failed to capitalize. The Wallabies arrive next week and on paper both teams have strengths and weaknesses. The challenge for both will be in the coaching box, as Allister Coetzee & Michael Cheika are mavericks and have a propensity to make poor selections and struggle with player personalities. This could be another nail nibbling morsel.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:39pm
            superba said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:39pm | ! Report

            @Puff
            why is Cheika the Ozzie coach ?
            Answer ; Because he is the best coach in Australia.
            And why is Coetzee the Bok coach ?
            Because he is black .
            Not because he is the best .
            No way

            • September 23rd 2017 @ 1:26am
              Taylorman said | September 23rd 2017 @ 1:26am | ! Report

              So Meyer was the coach because he was what? The best coach? Or because he was white?

              Cant win either way huh?

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 2:02pm
                superba said | September 23rd 2017 @ 2:02pm | ! Report

                Taylorman Meyer was selected on merit .
                PdeV and AC were selected on colour , as confirmed by SARU

              • September 24th 2017 @ 6:19am
                Taylorman said | September 24th 2017 @ 6:19am | ! Report

                Yes exactly, the difference hardly meriting a change using that example.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:42am
          taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:42am | ! Report

          Thats because it goes back much much further and there is a considerable amount of turmoil between the two. Abs and Boks were the top two for nearly a hundred years.

          As far as Im concerned Oz didnt take its rugby seriously until the third test in 1978, before that they were relative easy beats, even in the 70s while we were losing to the Boks, England, the Lions, France, the Barbarians, even our own Junior side, we were still dispatching the Wallabies fairly easily.

          Bothe SA and NZ have always had Rugby as its no. 1 sport bar the playing of Football as more of a backdrop by the majority.

          Oz has never had Rugby as its no. one sport.

          So if the Wallabies want to be considered number one rivals, perhaps they need to pay the sport more attention, hence the problems they face now. If Rugby were Australias first sport of choice, Id say they’d have a much better side today.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:45am
            Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:45am | ! Report

            Weird, and here I was thinking that rivalry was based on how close the current games are. When you’re going back to 1996 that is over twenty years that, I suspect if you crunch the numbers, the Wallabies have been more difficult for the Kiwis.

            I get the history thing (of course I get it) but Kiwis are looking at the current rivalry with nostalgia rather than reality.

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:55am
              taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:55am | ! Report

              Absolutely, though your ‘recent’ argument doesnt suggest a rivalry either. Since 2010 its 19 wins to 3, so 16 and 2 isnt a lot different is it?

              Oz has never dominated NZ. It had key wins but youd have to be selective to find any period of domination.

              Though SA didnt either- they stayed ahead in the win ratios but thats what made them special. It was always tight, no more than five test difference overal in nearly 100 years. No one gets near that, not within a mile.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:00am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:00am | ! Report

                We’re not talking about 50 years ago though. Australia was the best tennis nation in the world 50 years ago, now we’re rubbish.

                I get your point that it has hardly been close for either team since 2010. That being said Aus has had more wins since 2007 (I think we’ve been better than the Boks more than they’ve been better than us since 07) and I think we’ve definitely pushed the All Blacks closer on a lot of big occasions (the 2015 WC semifinal could have changed everything but from some great Carter play).

                My point is that the Wallabies have been at least as competitive as the Boks since 1996, but the Kiwis still like to pretend that the Boks-All Blacks clashes are the biggest and the closest, and the Wallabies are much less close. This isn’t backed up by the facts since professionalism.

                I get that the Kiwis must feel nostalgic for the old days, I myself said that surely the Kiwis must miss the days when the Bledisloe was actually competitive. Even if you usually won, surely both the Kiwis and the Aussies enjoyed it more when the Kiwis won a tight series, rather than 3-0 obliterations with 53+ points scored.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:06am
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:06am | ! Report

                ha ha, you talk about the semi when your own lot played the free get out of jail ref card. geez your back to your stupi>dity. Take a break Fionn. Stop picking up losing battles just for the sake of it.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:12am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:12am | ! Report

                What are you talking about? All I said is that if the Boks had won that game it would have somewhat changed the history of the recent rivalry… How is that a ‘losing battle’?

                This is your problem, you struggle so much with brain capacity that you think you’re making valid points when you’re spouting nonsense. What is your point?

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:53am
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:53am | ! Report

                If if if…youre going to be a historian and your’e making arguments using if?

                Ifs dont happen. Never have.

                If the ABs lost every test theyve ever played, they wouldnt be number one.

                True statement, means nothing.

                And ‘if’ the ABs lost that match that they controlled so well, chances are OZ would have lost given the way they kept making error after error against Scotland and they way they were skitted in the final.

                Theres an If for you. More likely than NZ losing that semi thats for sure.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:05am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:05am | ! Report

                Which is my point, champ, it didn’t happen… and therefore, my above comments about Australia providing closer competition than South Africa holds true.

                You’re quite amazing, Taylorman. Not only is badic compression very challenging for you, you also seem to have a pathological need to lash out whenever someone implies any limit to the All Blacks’ dominance.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:03am
                Pinetree said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:03am | ! Report

                Apart from 1998-2003, Australia has not been a rival much at all,, or at least South Africa has been slightly better than Australia.

                All Blacks vs Wallabies 2004-2017 – ABs won 33 (80.5%) Aus won 6 (14.6%) , 2 draws (4.9%)

                All Blacks vs Springboks 2004-2017 – ABs won 22 (71%) SB won 9 (29%).

                Of course, the history in the amateur game between ABs and SBs speak for itself, and where the real rivalry was formed.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:18am
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:18am | ! Report

                Not really Fionn, I just dont think highly of stup?id arguments. And at the moment, you take the cake, bending things all over the place to suit a small, narrow view.

                And gee, like the Foley saga, no one really agrees with you here either. Funny that. But keep trying chump 🙂 You make it fun

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 12:24pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:24pm | ! Report

                Plenty of people agree with me on Foley, and I don’t care if it’s a minority or majority.

                People don’t agree with me that the rivalries have been similar since professionalism? Weird, because stats back up the notion that they are similar. I don’t see how opinions come into it at all.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 12:32pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:32pm | ! Report

                In case you didn’t realise, I was arguing that because the Kiwis won that semifinal it continued the trend of completed NZ domaince over SA. If SA had won that it could have been different, but they didn’t and it wasn’t.

                Both Aus and SA are similarly successful against NZ – ie, not very.

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:23am
              Beelzebub said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:23am | ! Report

              Wrong go back to the beginning and SA have been the toughest tests

            • Roar Guru

              September 22nd 2017 @ 2:00pm
              Wal said | September 22nd 2017 @ 2:00pm | ! Report

              Fionn

              Acutal stats since 1996 (professional era) are very similar

              AB’s vs Boks win ration is 73.07 vs Aust its 73.3. In any head to head competition, neither of these numbers would accurately describe a rivalry. Hence the AB’s Springbok history becomes more relevant.
              You also have to take cultures into account, NZ, SA and Wales all share a Rugby culture, almost anyone you run into from these countries shares the same passion and knowledge about rugby. This feeds to a shared experience as part of the rivalry.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 12:24pm
            Rugby Tragic said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:24pm | ! Report

            TM, do you recall the days when the Kiwis played Aussie and they would refused to call it “a test” … and NZ never played the All Blacks but a NZ Fifteen?

            Meanwhile we were having very difficult matches with the Springboks…

            • Roar Guru

              September 22nd 2017 @ 2:52pm
              taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 2:52pm | ! Report

              Yes and it wasnt just oz was it?
              I recall XV being used often.

              • Roar Guru

                September 22nd 2017 @ 3:31pm
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | September 22nd 2017 @ 3:31pm | ! Report

                Maybe time to start using that label again? At least for the other teams in TRC, hence none of them are playing their strongest teams at the moment (the AB’s are the only team being remotely close to field their ultimate 23 on match days).

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 4:41pm
                Taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 4:41pm | ! Report

                I think those sorts of things went with the amateur era. Pro rugby wants ‘tests’, people wont care about friendlys or any semblance that the best two teams arent on the park.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:50am
          Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:50am | ! Report

          You have a point Fionn, to be fair, but have you ever checked on the for & against records involving the AB’s with both nations? In this I am referring to the over all records. It must also be remembered that the Springbok’s were, going on the for & against, the No.1, rugby nation, up until the professional era where the AB’s surpassed them. Like over 70 years as the top rugby playing nation, is something to cherish.
          In all NZ has had, some very nail biting series with the Bok’s, the 56 one that still lives in my memory. It also must be remembered that the greatest test match ever played, was between these two nations at Ellis Park in Jo’burg, in 2013, in which I had the pleasure of being in attendance.
          Yes so many Kiwi’s do have a healthy respect for SA rugby as a whole.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 9:58am
            taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:58am | ! Report

            They werent actually number one. There were no rankings back then but the ABs had a higher overall winning test % than the Boks going into the 90s.

            Its that the Boks got to a max of five tests ahead on a head to head basis that the impression is they were ahead.

            Mind you, it felt like they were ahead, especially in the 70’s when we were toast.

            The 81 flour bomb test is the most memorable for me. That had…everything…and more. And what a finish!

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:01am
              Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:01am | ! Report

              From what I read it was only in 1996 that the All Blacks overtook the Boks in terms of winning % in head to head.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:02am
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:02am | ! Report

                Thats about right, and matches my comments…overall winning is against allcomers. ABs 70% versus 64%.

                Pretty sure you dont base the number one side today as the side with ‘the best record against the ABs’ so why would you then?

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:04am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:04am | ! Report

                So it does. I beg your pardon, I haven’t had my coffee.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:14am
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:14am | ! Report

                triple shot for Fionn… 🙂

            • Roar Guru

              September 22nd 2017 @ 10:19am
              Ralph said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:19am | ! Report

              I will never forget Andrew Merhtens getting carried away after his drop goal and flipping the bird to the crowd.

              Winning in the republic back then was quiet the emotional experience.

              Back then we were still the “Canterbury” Crusaders.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:04am
            Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:04am | ! Report

            Muzzo, I 100% get that in the amateur days and for most of history there was no contest, the Boks and All Blacks were the top dogs and had a great rivalry.

            However, things have changed since 1996, but the Kiwis have been unwilling to accept that fact. It is nice that you guys have such respect for the Boks, but, as I said, it is just a bit frustrating that that some respect doesn’t apply to the Wallabies too. In the professional era I’d say we’ve been just as competitive as the Boks, probably a bit more.

            I’ve never actually watched that match, maybe I need to find a recording. As good as the 2nd Lions test from 2009? That was a great match. I love the Boks.

            • Roar Guru

              September 22nd 2017 @ 10:15am
              Ralph said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:15am | ! Report

              What can I say Fionn, a nation of hopeless romantics.

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:17am
              Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:17am | ! Report

              has it changed

              Post 96 the professional era NZs win record is about the same against both

              Post 2003, take out the great Wallaby side
              NZs win rate against SA is 70%, but a thumping 83% vs Australia

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:23am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:23am | ! Report

                Highlander, what is the winning rate since 2007?

                What is the winning rate if you take out 2009 (the statistical outlier)? I would suggest that in a majority of years since 2007 the Wallabies have done better than the Boks.

                If you look at 1996-2007 what is the winning rate? I would suggest Wallabies would be higher on that.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:28am
                Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:28am | ! Report

                Maybe South Africa get respect cause they don’t bleat on endlessly about how they aren’t respected enough

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:32am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:32am | ! Report

                Really condescending, inaccurate and offensive comment, mate, and far below what I would expect from you.

                1. It is easy not to complain about not getting respect when getting respect.
                2. Australians hardly ‘bleat on endlessly’ about it.

                Condescending and hurtful comment, Highlander? Yes.

                Accurate comment? No.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:57am
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:57am | ! Report

                Welcome to the condescension club Highlander 🙂

                Notice the number of If’s in his arguments?

                🙂

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:10am
                Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:10am | ! Report

                Agh, the victim response – text book, entirely predictable

                1. you might want to have a look at what you have written this morning, including the brain capacity comment to TMan, nice.

                2. You got your stats wrong very time except1996-2007

                3. If you don’t understand the NZ/SA you could at least accept it rather than trying to challenge to something you will never understand

                4. Rivalry is built over decades not recent events so I don’t need you to tell me who my rivalrys should be with.

                5. Rivalry does not have to be reciprocal.
                When I lived in Germany, ask a german football fan who their rivals are, they say Holland.
                Ask the English they say Germany, I have found the germans don’t give a toss about the English.

                6. And if you haven’t guessed you have seriously pi$$ed me off with this waffle today.

                END

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 12:22pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:22pm | ! Report

                1. I think there’s a difference between making a comment directed at a single person, and one generalising about an entire country, eh? I don’t care if you criticise me, I’m used to it, I just don’t like the generalisation. Any other comments you can point to but that?

                2. Since 2007 (excluding 2009) South Africa have won on three occasions; Australia has won on 5 since then. Including 2009, South Africa has won more, but as I said, the difference isn’t substantive, they’re very similar.

                3. Accepting and understanding isn’t the point, it is the blatant double standards demonstrated by some Kiwis on the issue.

                I did guess, your comment was pretty immature given all that I pointed out was that the Kiwis were displaying double standards.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 5:45pm
                Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 5:45pm | ! Report

                I thought you were supposed to be an academic.
                Under which Quantative Method is SA’s 2009 3-0 series win over NZ a statistical outlier.
                It is 3 wins by the side that has the best record against the All Blacks. It is more a consistency than any other All Black loss of the period.

                But stick with that thesis and I look forward to your first research piece as a historian.

                Herculaneum – a great place to live, except for Vesuvius ( which was a one off)

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 6:05pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 6:05pm | ! Report

                ‘Under which Quantative Method is SA’s 2009 3-0 series win over NZ a statistical outlier.’

                So out of the 21 matches that the two teams have played since 2007, aside from 2009 (the last truly great Springbok team) the Boks have won 3 and the All Blacks have won 18.

                In only 3 years have the Boks won any matches, and the most they won in one year was 1. In 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16 and 17 the All Blacks haven’t lost to any of them.

                You’re seriously saying you don’t think that 2009 looks like an outlier when you compare it to the rest of the period since 07?

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 6:28pm
                Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 6:28pm | ! Report

                Yep, it’s not even close to a statistical outlier, if fact including it puts the ratio right on history, all time, professional era.

                You could make an arguement for an outlier if it was a one off against Japan, ebpven a 3 game clean sweep would be an outlier for Ireland In 2009.

                I fact you gave all the historic, near and far, to a statistician in 2009 and asked them to predict who could beat NZ they would come up with SA.
                Maybe using a method that weights near term then maybe Aus might get a mention.

                But still wouldn’t change who NZers view as rivals.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 6:40pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 6:40pm | ! Report

                ‘if fact including it puts the ratio right on history, all time, professional era.’

                Typo?

                Since you already above decided to ignore the great Aus team that ended in about 03,

                Since 07:

                New Zealand vs South Africa, NZ has 18 wins, 6 losses. So ABs win % is 75%.

                New Zealand vs Aus, NZ have won 27 times, lost 5 times and drawn twice. So ABs win % is 79%.

                So South Africa’s record against New Zealand since 07 is slightly better when you include 2009 (which, despite what you say above, is a statistical outlier as it goes completely against the trends that have been apparent since professionalism – and especially of 07 – of New Zealand dominating South Africa).

                If Foley kicks his goals in Dunedin then the ABs win percentage vs the Wallabies goes to 76%. I know that he didn’t so it is a moot point, but the fact that one changed result gets the win percentage of the ABs vs the Wallabies and the Springboks almost exactly the same (despite the 3-0 to SA in 09) shows that the rivalries have been very similar overall since 07.

                Since 2010:

                ABs played South Africa 16 times for 14 wins and 2 losses – 87.5% win rate for All Blacks

                ABs played Aus 24 times for 19 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws – 79% win rate for All Blacks.

                Aus did better vs the ABs in 07, 10, 12 and 15, while South Africa did better in 09 and 14.

                Regardless of what Kiwi fans ‘feel’, the stats don’t back up that the Springboks have been, since professionalism, some great rival while Australia have been some easy beats.

                So, please tell me how this comment isn’t supported by the facts?

                ‘It’s actually pretty frustrating as an Australian that the Kiwis rate the Springboks rivalry as so much harder than the Wallabies given that I think the Wallabies have pushed the All Blacks harder, or at least as hard, for most of the period since about 1997. 2009 and 13 notwithstanding.’

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:01pm
                Pinetree said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:01pm | ! Report

                Fionn – If we are just talking about current rivalry, and not historically, then England is the main rival to the All Blacks at the moment, and Aus and SA are about on par, so I suggest you get back to waiting in the cue mate 🙂

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:04pm
                Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:04pm | ! Report

                Actually if there are any results that should be excluded from any value series they would be the two dead rubbers the wallabies have won since 2010. They would be excluded by bookies and stats geeks as they have no equivalent value in outcome to games that have points or trophies on them.

                That would them leave Aus with 1 real win since 2010 and we should could probably call that a statistical outlier too. Easy to do isn’t it.

                Simple fact, you do not, and clearly will not, understand SA – NZ rugby relationship, it is not defined simpy by numbers, never will be , certainly not the marginal variance selection you keep trying to use, you are demonstrating what my kids call FOMO.

                If we stuff SA every game until the RWC in 2023 they will remain our major rivals, and we will share in their disappointment.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:07pm
                Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:07pm | ! Report

                Hey pine tree, what is interesting about England as a rival is its all noise and smoke, and I am sure they see us as one.

                Our historical win ratio is 80pc, since the pro era 84pc and last outing was a 3-0 blackwash. And yet much to Fionns chargrin many kiwis would still consider them greater rivals.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:12pm
                Pinetree said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:12pm | ! Report

                Highlander – yeah, my comment was more tongue and cheek, but with a point that England looks to be the next best team at the moment, and the one the ABs want to play.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:19pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:19pm | ! Report

                Pine, England has won once since 2004, lost 14. How exactly are England the main rivals? I do get you’re simply pointing out they’re the second best right now, which is true.

                Nah, there’s no such thing as dead rubbers in rugby tests, even if they aren’t for the RC/Bledisloe the teams compete just as hard. Go back and watch the 2010 and 11 matches, both teams are clearly trying as hard as they can.

                And therein lies the problem, NZ and SA are completely allowed to mainly care about one another (although I suspect that if NZ beat SA until 2023 there won’t be much of a rivalry), but that doesn’t change the fact that Aus has been about as successful since 07 and I imagine if I go and crunch the numbers more successful since professionalism.

                You’re right, it would be to my chagrin as it simply demonstrates further double standards. Not saying you’re not allowed to do so, but I am allowed to use stats and results to point out the flaws in preconceived notions of South Africa and England being so much better and more dangerous than us, and to point out that it is a frustrating attitude from the Australian POV.

                Apparently not to you, however, because simply stating the stats and results ‘seriously pi$$ed’ you off, for some reason.

                I would actually have thought that Ireland would be the main rivals based on how the most recent 3-4 matches have gone.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:23pm
                Taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:23pm | ! Report

                Yes England last won in 2012 and have lost what is it, five straight since? Hardly a rival. They need to meet, and win first.

                Fionn youre taking selective years, selective points, carving bits up here and there, all in an effort to show a stingy margin over SA.

                And dont tell us what we can think, you spend hours on here trying to do that. Youre wrong on this one and once again keep digging a deeper and deeper hole.

                Theres a point where its obvious, but you just keep getting that big ol spade out.

                Tis a shame…

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:29pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:29pm | ! Report

                I never told you what you can or can’t think.

                I simply pointed out that, in terms of actual results, the rivalries between NZ and SA and between NZ and Aus have been virtually the same since 07, and that it is frustrating as an Australian fan for it not to be recognised by Kiwi fans.

                What exactly am I “wrong” about on that, Taylorman?

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 1:53am
                Taylorman said | September 23rd 2017 @ 1:53am | ! Report

                Oh, ok then. Tis a very lame point then. The fact that we deal to both evenly is not a rivalry. Its a sad reality.

                Bit like me saying NZ oz cricket has been just as much as a rivalry since 2007 and I dont see why Oz England is seen more of a rivalry, even if it isnt. The history between Oz and England is too significant to bother consider ‘the last few years’.

                But there you go.

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 7:29am
                Fionn said | September 23rd 2017 @ 7:29am | ! Report

                Cheers, Taylorman.

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:19am
              taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:19am | ! Report

              The 90s Wallabies were great, bit of a slump in the middle but they were at their best ever then, and that coincided with some of their greats

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:31am
              Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:31am | ! Report

              Possibly Fionn, that the Wallabies, have not consistently, been the top dog over greater period of time. That in itself is the difference. Well after all the for & against don’t lie.
              Your argument is based over a certain time of the rugby history, & not the overall picture. I love the Bok’s too, especially after touring their magnificent country. It was such an eye opener.
              To say we haven’t accepted that fact, is wrong, as during this time, you refer too, we have become No1, longer than any nation, since these particular ratings came to effect.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:34am
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:34am | ! Report

                A rivalry can’t be based on early history and ignoring recent history.

                By the team Federer had own 15 in a row against Hewitt over 7 years it had ceased to be a rivalry, at least until Hewitt won 2 out of the last 3.

                Agree about the magnificence of South Africa, brilliant country. Would be an amazing place to live.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:31pm
                Council said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:31pm | ! Report

                Fiona, normally I enjoy reading your posts and comments.

                On this issue you need to get off your high horse and pull your head out.

                You don’t get to decide who our greatest rival is. You decide who yours is.

                We have many years of history with SA and many intense games with close finishes.

                It is this which builds the rivalry, not a ten percent win difference between the Wallabies and the Boks against us.

                There is also the culture and attitude towards the game that the Boys and Blacks have.

                This has been massively driven into the ground by the Wallabies with Deans coaches teams forbidden too have a few beers with AB teams after matches.

                This sort of behavior tends to lend itself towards a less rivalisitic relationship. And more one of, we can’t lose to these guys because that would suck.

                Cheikas carrying on recently, bleating and moaning is another symptom. Though I don’t know if he allows the teams to catch up for a beer after match, I hope they can.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:34pm
                Fionn said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:34pm | ! Report

                Council, go back and read my initial comment, I never said that Kiwi fans didn’t have the right to value their rivalry with the South Africans, only that it is:

                ‘pretty frustrating as an Australian that the Kiwis rate the Springboks rivalry as so much harder than the Wallabies given that I think the Wallabies have pushed the All Blacks harder, or at least as hard, for most of the period since about 1997. 2009 and 13 notwithstanding.’

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 12:10pm
              Dan from Fiji said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:10pm | ! Report

              Fionn,

              You have to watch that match. Just as pulsating as the 2000 btw the AB’s and the Wallabies. The game that many rate as the greatest rugby game ever played.

              I can’t believe you haven’t watched that Joburg game in 2013!!!!!

              • Roar Guru

                September 22nd 2017 @ 2:08pm
                Wal said | September 22nd 2017 @ 2:08pm | ! Report

                You can thank me afterwards

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPJNRLgEWQ

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 7:30am
                Fionn said | September 23rd 2017 @ 7:30am | ! Report

                Alright, yeah, it was pretty good 😛 , don’t quite know how that was fell through the cracks.

                Thank you, I do appreciate it.

            • September 24th 2017 @ 6:16pm
              hopalong said | September 24th 2017 @ 6:16pm | ! Report

              Thank you.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:02am
          Jonty Shonty said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:02am | ! Report

          Cheers Fionn – I agree with your comments, and it would be awesome for world rugby to have a highly competitive Springboks

        • Roar Rookie

          September 22nd 2017 @ 9:25pm
          Phantom said | September 22nd 2017 @ 9:25pm | ! Report

          The boks are tradional rivals the wallabies not so because they are not good enough often enough.

          Had the boks beaten the wallabies which they should have done as they were by far the better team then Saturdays match against the ABs would have been a cracker.

          The score did not reflect the game and I hope to see better results for the boks next week.

    • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:08am
      Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:08am | ! Report

      SA will always be the great rivalry, we will wait for you to come back, hopefully near term

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:17am
        Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:17am | ! Report

        As I Highlander, as I.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:23am
          Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:23am | ! Report

          Most will forget Muzzo but I remember as a young fella that Wales were probably the great rivalry without SA.

          The Wales side of the 1980’s kind of put a stop to that.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 10:46am
            Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:46am | ! Report

            Hahaha Highlander, do you remember that great last try by one, Keith Murdoch, in 1972-73 BI tour, over Wales, when the man, carried three or four Welsh forwards the last ten yards or so to score? That was his last game, in that winning test (19-16).
            Yep true, the Welsh were great rivals, in a rivalry, that went back to that controversial try by Deans in 1905.

            • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:13am
              Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:13am | ! Report

              That is just about my earliest rugby memory Muzzo

              And of course our syncronised diving team in 78 letting McKechnie into the history books.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:46am
                Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:46am | ! Report

                Oh yes mate, we would have definitely won an Olympic gold for that diving achievement.. LOL.

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 1:11pm
                taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 1:11pm | ! Report

                Interesting, mine is for some reason Laurie Mains kicking a long penalty goal (in black and white) against the Lions from sideline on halfway, so not much earlier…

                72-73 was half black and white half colour from memory…Scotland was definitely black and white then ended with the Baabaas in colour though, oddly, one team wore black and white, one all black! 🙂

              • September 22nd 2017 @ 1:39pm
                Muzzo said | September 22nd 2017 @ 1:39pm | ! Report

                Haha Yep T/man, as I recall being at school with Laurie, but not in the same year. He was even as a young fella, a perfectionist in what he did. Even playing against the Lions at Eden Park in 1971, his kicking off the tee, was near to faultless. That test, being drawn, giving the Lions their first ever series win in NZ, along with it being captain Piney’s last test for his country.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:57am
            taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:57am | ! Report

            Yes given they were ahead until 1954, their last win…

      • Roar Guru

        September 22nd 2017 @ 10:25am
        Ralph said | September 22nd 2017 @ 10:25am | ! Report

        Yes, there is something about the South African heartfelt love of the game that makes you want to pay for the beer after the game. Regardless of who won.

        Being a Kiwi watching SA rugby today is like watching your big brother lose his wife to cancer. Deeply, deeply upsetting but there is nothing you can do except be there, standing mutely watching it happen, trying not to make it about yourself.

        In the end there are no words, just the memories.

      • Roar Guru

        September 22nd 2017 @ 2:08pm
        biltongbek said | September 22nd 2017 @ 2:08pm | ! Report

        You are going to wait a long , long time highlander, if ever.

        What is wrong with SA rugby runs deep, depper than just quotas, deeper than meddling politicians, players leave for money yes, but they also leave because they want to get away from the poor economy, the corruption, the crime.

        Our administrators are still old school, they run South African rugby like amateurs, nepotism is rife, administrators at every level is guilty of looking after their own interests first, the focus to retain their little bit of power in the hierarchy that is SA rugby trumps what is best for the game.

        There is no collective mindset, no collective effort to improve the quality of our coaching, no succession plans, only a bunch of amateurs running a sport.

        If you have ever played rugby (I assume you have) you would know that whilst quotas is an easy scapegoat (try running a back line when one of the players you have no belief in) and doubt in the defensive abilities of one player can be the total failure of a defensive system, there is more wrong with our rugby than just that.

        It starts at school level where coaches have 2 or three appointed ball carriers and the rest are just there to get the ball to the “big guys”. No skills are developed to run at space, passing to the player in a better position. Just get the ball to the big guy. It is a clture thing.

        You have a situation where talent doesn’t go to every franchise, those with money would rather buy up all the halfbacks and have them sit on the bench all season than run out for someone else.

        Then they get frustrated and seek greener pastures overseas.

        And so the circle is complete, it just turns over and over.

        For someone like me who had great passion for rugby, the hope was always there that we can fix it. But no more, I know people will think I am melodramatic, but for me it has come to the point where I realise there are so many “broken” factors in our sporting society and culture, it is nigh on impossible to fix.

        Yes was it only the Springboks, the Springbok coach, the game plan etc, it could be fixed.

        But the challenge is so overwhelming, those in possession of our rugby simply o not have the desire, honesty, integrity or ability to fix this.

        So if you want you can fondly hold on to the myth of our rivalry, I am simply too embarrassed to acknowledge it still might exist.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 2:53pm
          Highlander said | September 22nd 2017 @ 2:53pm | ! Report

          Thanks BB, a thorough , but also thoroughly depressing summary.

          I, as I am sure many do, hope that somewhere there is a circuit breaker in SA rugby and the game gets both its local and global position back again.

          You can’t transform players at international level only, that’s for real.

        • September 22nd 2017 @ 4:52pm
          Taylorman said | September 22nd 2017 @ 4:52pm | ! Report

          Still think SA is going to find a way Biltong. Its just not going as quickly as you want it too. The players keep coming through. Poorly managed and coached for sure. Quoata presence designed to hold them back and all that but the cream will rise one day…

        • Roar Guru

          September 22nd 2017 @ 5:53pm
          Machooka said | September 22nd 2017 @ 5:53pm | ! Report

          Ah thanks heavens you’re still here biltongbek… for a minute there I thought we’d lost you! 🙂

          • Roar Guru

            September 22nd 2017 @ 6:52pm
            biltongbek said | September 22nd 2017 @ 6:52pm | ! Report

            Not too much to say these days mate, it’s gone belly up

            • September 23rd 2017 @ 9:07am
              richard said | September 23rd 2017 @ 9:07am | ! Report

              Sad to hear all that.Like T-MAN,Highlander,I value our rivalry with the Boks above any other.While I want NZ winning,I have not enjoyed the blowouts v the Boks in recent years.So,on that score,I sincerely hope you are wrong on this,bb.

    • September 22nd 2017 @ 11:47am
      AG said | September 22nd 2017 @ 11:47am | ! Report

      I think a lot of rugby fans around the world feel the same way. I was having a conversation with a south African supporter last night and he echoed a very similar sentiment, the game just seemed so much better 10 years ago,

    • Roar Guru

      September 22nd 2017 @ 12:54pm
      The Neutral View From Sweden said | September 22nd 2017 @ 12:54pm | ! Report

      Thanks for this little read.

      Is this 2017 edition of the Springboks a false dawn? A lot of people seem to think so. I say it is too early to make that call. What defines great teams is how they handle setbacks. So we shall see if they have learned anything from the AB’s masterclass in Albany, or if they have given up and just feel sorry for themselves.

      I hate the quota system with a passion, but it is what it is due to a nightmarish history. But quotas are not the biggest reason why the Boks does not reach its full potential at the moment. The fact that it is possible to pick a stronger Boks matchday 23 from Europe than the Republic is a much bigger reason at the moment.

      The day SA can regularly pick their strongest 23 players (and have similar preparation time et al as the AB’s), that will be the day when this classic rivalry will flourish again.

      • Roar Rookie

        September 22nd 2017 @ 1:12pm
        Marcel Neuhoff said | September 22nd 2017 @ 1:12pm | ! Report

        I think you’ll find the overwhelming majority of the SA population doesn’t want quotas in rugby anymore though, regardless of the country’s past. It’s the ANC that still wants them, so they’ll remain indefinitely despite the absence of public support.

        Totally agree with the matchday 23 from Europe, or at least containing a large contingent from Europe, being stronger. A pitiful economy/poor Rand takes the blame there, as well as the ANC of course for bringing it down.

        The reality is though that the Springboks will never field its best 23 players until politics are left out of SA entirely, or rather, when the ANC loses power.

        • Roar Guru

          September 22nd 2017 @ 3:48pm
          The Neutral View From Sweden said | September 22nd 2017 @ 3:48pm | ! Report

          If the majority SA 55 million population does not want quotas, it is very good news.

          In a not so distant future, I think there is fair chance for the Boks to be able to field their best 23 in every Test. Even with ANC at the helm in SA. After the WC 2023, I would not be surprised if SA has decided to go to the north full stop, and if that happens, the Boks will have a huge smorgasbord to select players from.
          Obviously, that will not fix the quota/race issue, but I think – and hope – that is a problem that will sort itself out eventually, hence more and more “non-whites” plays the game and logic say that some of them will eventually become top class players.

          • September 22nd 2017 @ 7:34pm
            Council said | September 22nd 2017 @ 7:34pm | ! Report

            Interesting fact Sweden, the ABs generally only have ten days together before the first test in a series.

          • September 23rd 2017 @ 1:37am
            Taylorman said | September 23rd 2017 @ 1:37am | ! Report

            Except overall their rugby quality will drop for a long time. Another change, a new comp where they have no history, half of that smorgasbord you speak of tied down by the European magnates…messy.

            Will take a lot for their own fans to think theyre not just rugbys orphans in this game.

            Winning some Europe club comp will hold nothing compared to winning the Super title simply because the best players are not in it.

            • Roar Guru

              September 23rd 2017 @ 11:46am
              The Neutral View From Sweden said | September 23rd 2017 @ 11:46am | ! Report

              As said a hundred times before T-man, your opinions about NH rugby is void hence you don’t watch it. And as with Jacko, your NZ’s bias is off the scale, which means talking anything else AB’s selection or Mitre10 Cup with you is basically fruitless.

              • September 23rd 2017 @ 12:14pm
                Taylorman said | September 23rd 2017 @ 12:14pm | ! Report

                yawn…x 101😀

              • Roar Guru

                September 23rd 2017 @ 1:22pm
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | September 23rd 2017 @ 1:22pm | ! Report

                Keep on yawning and keep on predicting that the AB’s would smash the BIL’s 3-0 (you really got that one right…)
                LOL!

              • September 24th 2017 @ 6:24am
                Taylorman said | September 24th 2017 @ 6:24am | ! Report

                I get 9/10 right every time. Do you? You didnt get it either. Do I go on about that.

                So I missed the upset of the century. Im not the only one chump.

              • Roar Guru

                September 24th 2017 @ 9:34am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | September 24th 2017 @ 9:34am | ! Report

                Hahahaha

                You, the great Kiwi who knows all things rugby according to yourself, showed how little you really know about rugby and what a weak man you are. The lies, the insults, the arrogance… I can go on.

      • September 22nd 2017 @ 2:32pm
        Jonty Shonty said | September 22nd 2017 @ 2:32pm | ! Report

        Thanks! And I agree. Most of the Springboks problems are being attributed to ‘quota’ selections. I feel it’s the smallest contributing factor.

    • September 22nd 2017 @ 1:06pm
      Old Bugger said | September 22nd 2017 @ 1:06pm | ! Report

      Jonty

      “Can the Boks make you angry again???” Off the top, I think you’re going to be angry for a while until that “win”, has been achieved. My question to you would be “Can the Boks win against the ABs???” If the answer is yes, the immediate question would be “When???”.

      Answer that and, you’ll find out how long it will take you, to feel “Happy” again. It really is, as simple as that.

      The complication is when your team just loses by a point or two compared to when your team is totally overwhelmed, by a half century plus, of points.That’s when acceptance, turns into anger. So, its not really that they lost but more about, how they lost.

      Yep, I can concur with that sentiment because, at that level of the game, you expect some ticker, from your team because national pride, is on the line.

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