Rebels’ recipe for success? Use the Force

By AAP,

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    With former Western Force coach Dave Wessels on board, the Melbourne Rebels are hoping the combined knowledge and talent of two success-starved Super Rugby clubs means a change in fortune next year.

    Wessels hasn’t officially started with the Rebels but is helping lure a group of as many as 10 Force players including Wallabies Dane Haylett-Petty, Richard Hardwick and lock Adam Coleman, who is being tempted by big money to play overseas.

    Haylett-Petty’s brother Ross, Test prop Tetera Faulkner as well as young prop Jermaine Ainsley are expected to bolster the Melbourne squad while veteran utility back Jono Lance would bring some valuable experience.

    The Rebels were relieved to be able to fend off a late offer from Irish powerhouse Munster to sign Wessels.

    “We’re really quite excited about how things are coming together and obviously Dave’s influential there so securing his services was key to a lot of things so it was good to get him on board,” Melbourne chief executive Baden Stephenson said.

    Melbourne are still to finalise their playing list and coaching staff and due to the change in ownership, their board.

    Wessels meanwhile will bring along some of his Force staff which will help fast-track the squad.

    Stephenson said the squad, which included in-form Wallabies Will Genia, Marika Koroibete and Reece Hodge, would “definitely have a new look and feel”.

    “It hasn’t been the smoothest ride for Reece and Marika this year so it’s great to see them kicking on,” Stephenson said.

    “I think Genia is just showing his maturity and class which is huge for us and he’s really looking forward to relocating and he’s quite excited to work with Dave.”

    Following their worst Super Rugby season, which yielded only one win, Stephenson said the club needed a fresh start.

    “We need to do things differently and we’re certainly ready for that and there’s lots of change which is quite exciting,” Stephenson said.

    “The shared experiences that the Force had this year, Dave feels there will be a strong alliance and connection between staff and players and that’s part of his driver.”

    © AAP 2018

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    The Crowd Says (189)

    • October 10th 2017 @ 4:28am
      Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:28am | ! Report

      A Force team supplemented with a few Rebels and Genia playing in Rebels jumpers….. just another reason the wrong team was axed. Even if the whole Rebels side is madè up of ex Force players, I will never support them.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 4:47am
        Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:47am | ! Report

        Recipe for success is to be the Force!
        It is not authentic, don’t expect anything more than a 2018 where the Rebels will build for 2019. They will need to start all over again, setup their team culture, identity and learn to like each other, develop defensive structures and develop combinations and learn to play for each other. Taking short cuts will lead to a internal divided team that will struggle with cohesion. Another tough 2018 for the Rebels is on the cards especially in the first half and Wessels will not be the magician everyone is expecting. The Force may have made the finals in 2018/19, the Rebels need at least two more years to get to where the Force was before they were cut.

        • October 10th 2017 @ 7:43am
          Rebellion said | October 10th 2017 @ 7:43am | ! Report

          No Recipe for success is to ever emulate the Force, Ex-Force Fan.
          For 12 seasons those guys were pulverised week-in-week-out, permanently pegged to the bottom of the ladder.
          Their legacy is in 12 x seasons not only did they fail to make a final series once, but they never once managed to finish in the top half of the ladder.
          The right team was cut and I think deep down you know that.
          Get behind the Rebels and drop the unfounded bitterness

          • October 10th 2017 @ 8:19am
            Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 8:19am | ! Report

            Deep down everyone except you know the wrong team was cut.

            • October 10th 2017 @ 10:54am
              scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 10:54am | ! Report

              No mate, he knows as well

              • Roar Rookie

                October 13th 2017 @ 1:34pm
                Kirky said | October 13th 2017 @ 1:34pm | ! Report

                I know and everyone else knows that there was dirty dealings all the way through this whole farcical situation, and it’s just coming to the pointy end of things right now!
                Not only were the hierarchy doing it behind a wall of bullcrap they were and obviously still are corrupt!!
                Twiggy Forrest has a wealth of knowledge on this whole thing and you can guarantee he’s got the bit right between his teeth and bet on it he won’t let it go!

                Clyne, Pulver and all their other corrupt cohorts should be be marched out of the EARU headquarters and bring their Lawyers with them!- They’re history!

            • Roar Guru

              October 10th 2017 @ 11:41am
              Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:41am | ! Report

              When only one team was legally able to be cut, how is it the wrong team?

              They were not financially sustainable without funding that is subsidized by Wallaby revenue (no team is).

              • Roar Pro

                October 10th 2017 @ 1:53pm
                Crazy Horse said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:53pm | ! Report

                BS TWAS. Your attitude is exactly what is wrong with Rugby. The Suits with their tricky corporate maneuvering and focus solely on the $ are ruining the game. That isn’t acceptable in the finance industry let alone in a sport.

                Tommorrow’s Senate hearing with the VRU and separately Rob Clarke appearing will be very entertaining.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:09pm
                Timbo (L) said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:09pm | ! Report

                Before passing judgement, what are the criterion for “the right team to cut”?

                ALL teams are legally able to be cut.
                The Force were just the most expedient.
                In a leaked memo SANZAAR described how they were going to cut all 5 Aussie teams and then choose 4 out of the 5 re-applying for their jobs.

                4 Criterion:
                Ease of execution – The Force
                Grass Roots – The Rebels, but recognizing that the Rebels also have strong programs
                Commercial Viability – The Rebels.
                On field Performance – The Rebels (or Tahs 😉 )

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:12pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:12pm | ! Report

                The criterion Timbo is what is best for the majority as a whole.

                A lengthy legal battle which will be overturned because the ARU have no legal basis to cut one of the other 4 is surely not what’s best.

                Likewise a large cost to purchase a licence taking a huge chunk out of any savings is not best for a majority as a whole because all 5 potentially go down the gurgler.

                Do we only consider the 2017 results and just ignore 2016 and 2015 where the Rebels did better?

              • October 10th 2017 @ 6:11pm
                Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 6:11pm | ! Report

                TWAS, the decision to cut the Force was made when the ARU agreed to cut a team and you know it. The whole culling process was an expensive and embarrassing farce.

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 10:10am
                Timbo (L) said | October 11th 2017 @ 10:10am | ! Report

                All they had to do was ask SANZAR to cut them. All sides have the same exit clause in their contracts that can be pulled by SANZAAR under conditions such as this.

                We will see if that decision is a good one.
                If the WA government want $50 mil of their investment back or sports Australia pull ARU funding for failure meet its commitments.

                But what about the cost to amateur rugby and elite pathways in WA?
                There has been absolutely no hint of any plan to address this.

        • Roar Guru

          October 10th 2017 @ 8:22am
          Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 8:22am | ! Report

          But the Force never achieved success…

          They made have made the finals in 2018/19, or they just as likely may have fell off a cliff like the Rebels in 2017 after their 2016 and 2015 were more successful than the Force’s 2017.

          • Roar Pro

            October 10th 2017 @ 9:26am
            robel said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:26am | ! Report

            The two yeas when the Force suffered a significant injury toll.

            The Force were on the way up. Without the Force players and coach the rebels would not be anywhere near the finals for another 5 years.

            I cannot even contemplate supporting the rebels, they being the reason the Force were cut. And now to be crowing about all the good players they are going to get sickens me.

            • October 10th 2017 @ 9:59am
              bluffboy said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:59am | ! Report

              So the Rebels are the reason the Force were cut…….
              After both teams went into serious survival mode and were prepared to do what it took to survive. I think you might find it was the ARU that booted the Force, not the Rebels.
              If the Force were able to sell off there franchise to the WA Union like the Rebels did to the Vic Union it may have been different. But it wasn’t and it isn’t.
              As a loyal Force supporter I take my hat to you.
              One question though, where would you rather see the ex Force players go, NSW or maybe just head overseas.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 5:06pm
                Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 5:06pm | ! Report

                The Rebels were the biggest drain on Australian rugby finances. So if the reason to cut a team was financial as TWAS and the ARU claim then the Rebels is the reason why a team had to be cut. I do not believe that this is the reason why the Force is cut.

              • Roar Pro

                October 10th 2017 @ 11:28pm
                robel said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:28pm | ! Report

                I wish all the best to the ex-Force players and support staff where-ever they go and hope they thrive.
                They have to move to continue their dreams of playing for the Wallabies.

                it’s a shame that other young West Aussies will find it more difficult to follow theirs now.
                The coaching summit held by the ERU today didn’t have any WA reps there. Just demonstrates the easy promises made by the ERU when they know they won’t keep them.
                As for the rebels, the main reason the ERU are allegedly in the financial trouble they claim, I will not support.

              • Roar Pro

                October 10th 2017 @ 11:28pm
                robel said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:28pm | ! Report

                I wish all the best to the ex-Force players and support staff where-ever they go and hope they thrive.
                They have to move to continue their dreams of playing for the Wallabies.

                it’s a shame that other young West Aussies will find it more difficult to follow theirs now.
                The coaching summit held by the ERU today didn’t have any WA reps there. Just demonstrates the easy promises made by the ERU when they know they won’t keep them.
                As for the rebels, the main reason the ERU are allegedly in the financial trouble they claim, I will not support.

            • Roar Guru

              October 10th 2017 @ 11:28am
              Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:28am | ! Report

              Yet not as bad as the Rebels 2017 injury toll.

              Based on 2015 and 2016 the Rebels were on the up. Won 7 games both seasons. It can change pretty quick.

              But you’re right. The Rebels shouldn’t talk up signing decent players.

              They should just say nothing at all and try not to be commercially successful.

              • Roar Rookie

                October 10th 2017 @ 12:52pm
                piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 12:52pm | ! Report

                Well that is what they are good at

                ** I know that’s not a fair statement but I couldn’t resist

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 1:36pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:36pm | ! Report

                It’s only because they haven’t been making a big deal about their signings!

              • October 11th 2017 @ 2:30pm
                BigtreeSmallaxe said | October 11th 2017 @ 2:30pm | ! Report

                I’m a little surprised the Rebels poached Genia. I would have thought they needed Adam Coleman or Jono Lance first and foremost. I thought the Rebel’s lineout was their biggest downfall this year. I know it’s not that easy to just pick and choose players. But who would you import TWAS?

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 2:45pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 11th 2017 @ 2:45pm | ! Report

                I’m not. The Rebels really struggled at 9.

                I would have loved for my Reds to have been able to push Frisby out and sign Genia but Frisby was signed for 2018.

                I think the Rebels biggest issues in 2017 were at lock and 9/10.

                With Lance, Parling and Genia apparently signed and Toolis and Jeffries likely to actually play in 2018, Coleman would be huge, but I think RHP as a line out jumping back rower would be the biggest thing they could add.

                I’ve heard Hardwick is likely but I think that would be a mistake by them as their problem for years has been too many short back rowers. Keep Reid, probably for less and let Hardwick go to QLD where he will be an unchallenged starter by 2019.

                I’ve also heard Meakes and I think there’s less need for him also, where as at the Waratahs he is a certain starter, while if DHP comes to the Rebels you have Wallaby wingers in Hodge and Naivalu who also play 12/13 and are likely to start there. Meakes is a good player but at the Tahs he’s a huge jump on Irae Simone.

              • Roar Rookie

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:07pm
                piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:07pm | ! Report

                Look, good luck to them, it’s not the club’s fault the ARU treated the West so poorly.

                But I’m never going to care enough to actually support them

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:13pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:13pm | ! Report

                Perfectly reasonable position Piru.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 5:08pm
                Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 5:08pm | ! Report

                Piru, I think we will find out tomorrow that the Rebels played an active role to get the Force cut…

          • October 10th 2017 @ 11:01am
            scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:01am | ! Report

            But the Force never achieved success…

            Except in all the key areas that the ARU stated they needed to when they were formed;
            1. Grow rugby in the West
            2. Make rugby a truly national game
            3. Improve the pool available to pick Wallabies from
            4. Create a valid pathway for WA rugby players so that they stay in rugby and see it as a viable career

            They may have had a few stumbles (Firestone & Richard Graham) but compared to the Rebels have been a financial powerhouse.

            • Roar Guru

              October 10th 2017 @ 11:30am
              Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:30am | ! Report

              And that’s purely due to retained earnings in a better supported Super Rugby period of 2006-2010.

              Take that out and they don’t survive 2011-2017.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 12:46pm
                scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 12:46pm | ! Report

                1. Wrong. The Force were viable and proved it this year. Compared to some other franchises they are a financial powerhouse today (because they aren’t losing money) and likely to be for the future.
                2. The Rebels lost $33m in 7 years. Last time I counted that was nearly $5m per year over and above the budgeted payments due to all clubs. They lost about 12 times what the worst of the others lost in the same period. 12 times worse!!!!!!!! They have zero chance of turning that around into the future. Even with substantial Vic government support over the next 5 years they will be lucky to survive.

                Still, the decision is made and it is what it is. We just need less “fake and selective facts” to be dribbled out on this forum so if you could stop doing that it would be appreciated.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 1:16pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:16pm | ! Report

                The Force have not posted a profit since 2010.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 3:40pm
                scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:40pm | ! Report

                The WARU and the Force (and every other franchise) are not designed to be profit centres TWAS. So talking about a failure to make a profit is once again smoke and mirrors from you. (which btw you are very good at). The Force have managed their costs to their revenue better than almost every other franchise with minor paper losses but in fact have essentially been cash neutral. The major exception was the $2m they had to spend in the stadium relocation which is why they went to the ARU for a loan. Clearly the relocation was the right move and in 2017 they have made a profit. They would have liked the opportunity to sink that profit into their 2018 season and beyond – but now they can’t.

                The fact is that the Rebels have now sent two owners to the wall and the new (again) owner is the VRU which is nearly broke should be a matter of extreme concern to you. The fact that is isn’t tells me that you are more interested in creating a narrative to fit your position than to form your position based on the facts.

                As I said, the decision is made and the Force license is cut. Good luck to the players and coach. i wish them well as they have been great servants of the game.

                All I have asked is that people not use false or incomplete facts to try to rewrite history.

                That is my last statement on it.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 3:50pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:50pm | ! Report

                How have they made a profit in 2017?

                They have posted no annual reports.

                They aren’t there to be profit centers, but without profits, they are probably losing money and can’t support themselves despite their biggest costs (player wages) being provided for them (like all teams).

                How does a $2M loss on a relocation equal needing nearly $4M from the ARU at the time then?

      • October 10th 2017 @ 4:47am
        Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:47am | ! Report

        Recipe for success is to be the Force!
        It is not authentic, don’t expect anything more than a 2018 where the Rebels will build for 2019. They will need to start all over again, setup their team culture, identity and learn to like each other, develop defensive structures and develop combinations and learn to play for each other. Taking short cuts will lead to a internal divided team that will struggle with cohesion. Another tough 2018 for the Rebels is on the cards especially in the first half and Wessels will not be the magician everyone is expecting. The Force may have made the finals in 2018/19, the Rebels need at least two more years to get to where the Force was before they were cut.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 7:29am
        Fionn said | October 10th 2017 @ 7:29am | ! Report

        ‘Even if the whole Rebels side is madè up of ex Force players, I will never support them.’

        Don’t you want to see the Force players doing well?

        • October 10th 2017 @ 8:17am
          Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 8:17am | ! Report

          Yes as Force players not as Rebels.

          • October 10th 2017 @ 9:08am
            Clyde said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:08am | ! Report

            It’s over now. The Force is no more so why not just get behind the Rebels and support them for the next 3 years.

            • October 10th 2017 @ 1:51pm
              ren said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:51pm | ! Report

              because they are another example of the eastern states thinking that the west is just for taking from. God thought he did us a favour putting a desert between our two halves of the country- if only it was an ocean.

              eastern states can take a hike.

            • Roar Pro

              October 10th 2017 @ 1:56pm
              Crazy Horse said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

              We’ll be back.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 3:43pm
                scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:43pm | ! Report

                Thanks Arnie 🙂

            • October 10th 2017 @ 5:16pm
              Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 5:16pm | ! Report

              Cannot get excited about a team that on merit should not exist. The Rebels is the biggest financial drain on Australian rugby resources, There is a reason why the ARU is mute on the deal to safe the Rebels – they sold future test revenue cheaply to the Vic government and is subsidising the Rebels existence at the cost of Austalian rugby. There is still no sustainable financial model to underpin the Rebels – the Force that Forrest was prepared to underwrite was sacrificed in favour of a team that will continue to be a financial drain on Australian rugby. The wrong team was cut!

            • October 10th 2017 @ 6:15pm
              Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 6:15pm | ! Report

              Clyde, this deal the ARU put together with the Victorian government and the VRU is an underhanded way for the ARU to continue to subsidise the Rebels at the cost of a financially secure Force. The Rebels played their part in this and therefore cannot recon on my support. Actually I have no superugby team to support and will try a different sport.

            • October 11th 2017 @ 12:09pm
              Dave said | October 11th 2017 @ 12:09pm | ! Report

              Clyde. I wish all the players and Wessels well as individuals but as for the Rebels and the Brumbies and the Waratahs and the Reds well I hope they lose every game to the Kiwis and Saffers.

      • Roar Guru

        October 10th 2017 @ 8:21am
        Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 8:21am | ! Report

        It will be a total of 7-8 Force players.

        One of those is Tertera Faulkner, a Melbourne raised player.

        Another is Ben Daley, who came from the Reds at the end of 2016.

        Another is Jono Lance who came from the Waratahs at the end of 2015.

        Another is supposedly Billy Meakes who came from Gloucester at the end of 2016.

        Then a couple of actual Force players have been mooted in Coleman, DHP, RHP and Hardwick.

        Hardly a Force team supplemented with a few Rebels.

        Clearly the other way around.

        Your inaugural squad was a Reds team supplemented with a few other players and you were more than happy with that.

        • October 10th 2017 @ 11:06am
          scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:06am | ! Report

          Yes, all players that were unrecognised as quality players or were considered past it (in Daly’s case) and had to go to the west to be recognised. Now all players talked about as possible test options. The reality is that you can dress it up but don’t expect anyone but the demented to be persuaded by that sort of dribble

          • Roar Guru

            October 10th 2017 @ 11:32am
            Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:32am | ! Report

            Daley wasn’t considered “past it”.

            He just knew sharing time with a current first choice 23 Wallaby wasn’t going to help his career.

            The fact is without injury he would have remained in the Reds best 23 in 2017.

            • October 10th 2017 @ 4:00pm
              scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:00pm | ! Report

              Yes he was and said himself that he needed to get out to rejuvenate himself.

        • Roar Guru

          October 10th 2017 @ 2:21pm
          Timbo (L) said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:21pm | ! Report

          Blah, Blah Blah Blah Blah,

          Do we actually care where players were born or where they played their early games or are you using it as a classic TWAS straw man to argue a point that nobody has made?

          Taf, in no way shape or form is/was a Perth local but we adopted him as our own. He became a valued member of the team and in rugby community activities. In my opinion, like many other “imports” he got better over here, improving his game.

          Hodgo, Coleman and Matt Philip, on paper are both Tah’s, In reality, The Tahs were too incompetent to recognize and develop talent, and they made homes for themselves in Perth. For Reference, the Tahs Lock History: Mumm, Skelton and Hanigan. Both Matt Philip and Coleman Outshine those players by an order of magnitude.

          • Roar Guru

            October 10th 2017 @ 2:56pm
            Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:56pm | ! Report

            You can’t keep them all.

            Skelton and Mumm were both Wallabies in 2015 while Philip only really cracked the starting team this year. Would they have been better off with Philip in 2015?

            Likewise I don’t think it’s incompetent to keep Waugh and lose Hodgson.

            Coleman was a player they had under their nose and Cheika certainly stuffed up. But he makes a lot of selection mistakes.

            • Roar Guru

              October 11th 2017 @ 10:24am
              Timbo (L) said | October 11th 2017 @ 10:24am | ! Report

              Any of that relevant to not caring where players came from?

              None of those Wallaby names ring out as being well rounded players and a good team will develop depth.

        • October 10th 2017 @ 9:17pm
          markie362 said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:17pm | ! Report

          When the force came into being they had to get players somewhere.they raided the reds yes but thr tahs reds and brums raid each other all the time

      • October 11th 2017 @ 11:46am
        Nicolai said | October 11th 2017 @ 11:46am | ! Report

        Ex Force fan — not sure how you went with maths at school or even after school — BUT 10 Force Players out of a group of 35 PLAYERS at the REBELS is 28.57% of the playing group and that leaves 73.43% NON Force players. I am sure 7 is more than 2 BUT I may be wrong (will check with my ex-wife)

        • October 11th 2017 @ 7:04pm
          Ex force fan said | October 11th 2017 @ 7:04pm | ! Report

          My maths is not a problem…I lectured maths at Uni level.

          A recent article mention ten 2017 Force players to join the Rebels as well as the Force’s coaching staff… where do you think Wessels will look for injury cover? There would have been more if other franchises and overseas clubs did not sign these players as the Rebels is the least preferred options to go to.

          The Rebels do not deserve to play superugby next and that team and supporters will be reminded of this a lot in the coming years.

    • October 10th 2017 @ 9:16am
      Lee said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:16am | ! Report

      It is great to see that the rebels are making plans for the new super season starting in February. I was immensely pleased that the force were not retained in super rugby as they brought next to nothing to Australian rugby and never played finals.
      The scenes of hysterical weeping in front of the cameras when the force lost their legal battles were embarrassing and too much. One should never lose their dignity in public over something so trivial. Pulver and the ARU Board have performed well and have my full support.
      In any event, the main areas of support and wealth and population for Australian rugby are and always have been along the east coast of Australia and if few thousand force fans now turn to other codes it won’t matter a jot.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 11:10am
        scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:10am | ! Report

        …..well they brought more to Australian rugby than the Rebels and looked more likely to play finals than the Rebels who never won more than 7 games. All the Rebels have brought to Australian rugby is a big debt hole.

        The Rebels are solely responsible for the loss of $33m in ARU funds over the last 7 years and there is zero prospect of them being financially viable in the next 5 years.

        • Roar Guru

          October 10th 2017 @ 11:33am
          Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:33am | ! Report

          The Rebels are solely responsible for the loss of $33m in ARU funds over the last 7 years and there is zero prospect of them being financially viable in the next 5 years.

          No. They aren’t solely responsible. The addition approx $8M to the Force is part of that for one.

          And you have zero idea of their financial position so you have no idea what prospect there is of them being viable.

          • October 10th 2017 @ 12:00pm
            Steve said | October 10th 2017 @ 12:00pm | ! Report

            Joel, that is factually incorrect. I suggest you review the proceedings of the first Senate Inquiry hearing to see where the money has actually gone over the past several years.

            I don’t begrudge Melbourne supporters wanting their team to survive and prosper. I certainly believe Australian Rugby would have been stronger with five teams treated equally.

            I do object to the Rebels becoming stronger at the expense of the Western Force, and most certainly do object to the lies, deceit and underhanded tactics used to make it happen.

            The fact that you are an apologist for that is very, very telling.

          • October 10th 2017 @ 3:50pm
            scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:50pm | ! Report

            Get your facts right TWAS, the Force unbudgeted costs to ARU were $3.7m and the $33m spent on the Rebels is a real number. The numbers are a matter of public record and in fact there was a very well written and well researched article on the Roar about it from an accountant.

            And yes we do have a good idea of their financial state as the VRU accounts are public and so was the bail out of the Rebels and so were comments from Mr Cox about “unsustainable losses”.

            • Roar Guru

              October 10th 2017 @ 4:03pm
              Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:03pm | ! Report

              Do you see the irony in included all budgeted spending in the Rebels amount to boost it, excluding it from the Force amount and then telling somebody to “get their facts straight”.

              How are the Rebels were responsible for the LOSS of $33M when somewhere around $12M was grants identical to the Force and other teams.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 6:35pm
                scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 6:35pm | ! Report

                Incorrect

              • October 10th 2017 @ 8:10pm
                Don said | October 10th 2017 @ 8:10pm | ! Report

                Incorrect

              • October 11th 2017 @ 4:09am
                ForceFan said | October 11th 2017 @ 4:09am | ! Report

                Absolute tosh!

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 8:36am
                Train Without A Station said | October 11th 2017 @ 8:36am | ! Report

                It’s absolute tosh that every team received planned grants as part of funding?

      • October 10th 2017 @ 1:56pm
        Rebellion said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

        Well said Lee.
        Personally I was most bemused by Pek Cowan’s ‘suicide watch rant’ after the team was axed. That’s a very serious issue for a lot of young Australians and Cowan has become so clouded by ‘player paycheque entitlement’ that he throws out a clanger to the media like that.
        The fact is Cowan never should have been a Super rugby player and has built a comfortable living underperforming in an over saturated player market.
        Poor Form all round.

        • Roar Rookie

          October 10th 2017 @ 2:10pm
          piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:10pm | ! Report

          Cowan is a Wallaby mate, not bad for someone who shouldn’t have even played Super Rugby

          • Roar Guru

            October 10th 2017 @ 2:14pm
            Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:14pm | ! Report

            I reckon he had a good 2017 too, to be fair.

            • Roar Rookie

              October 10th 2017 @ 5:24pm
              piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 5:24pm | ! Report

              I’ve always thought Cowan underrated – but I don’t say it often as it just looks like Force bias (which maybe it is). Even when we’re getting a towelling you can usually rely on Pek for a few crunching tackles.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 10:03pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 10:03pm | ! Report

                I always though he was overrated actually but was impressed with him the last 2 years.

              • October 10th 2017 @ 10:07pm
                Rebellion said | October 10th 2017 @ 10:07pm | ! Report

                Sorry but just to make sure you don’t try to keep getting away with re-writing history: I challenge you to watch a tape of Cowan’s performances in a Wallaby jersey.
                ‘Embarrassing’ is a more appropriate adjective than disappointing

              • Roar Rookie

                October 11th 2017 @ 11:43am
                piru said | October 11th 2017 @ 11:43am | ! Report

                I’ve seen them all actually Rebellion, and that’s not my recollection at all.

                Perhaps you’d care to back up your scathing analysis with some facts?

      • Roar Rookie

        October 10th 2017 @ 2:09pm
        piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:09pm | ! Report

        What a joy you must be in person Lee

        Do you get hit a lot?

        You sound like someone who gets hit a lot.

        • Roar Guru

          October 10th 2017 @ 2:24pm
          Timbo (L) said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:24pm | ! Report

          I bet he doesn’t, well not anymore.
          Sounds like someone who doesn’t get out much and has no need for empathy.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 6:16pm
        Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 6:16pm | ! Report

        Lee, you have never been to WA have you? You have no clue what the Force mean for rugby in WA. Ignorant.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 6:16pm
        Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 6:16pm | ! Report

        Lee, you have never been to WA have you? You have no clue what the Force mean for rugby in WA. Ignorant.

      • Roar Guru

        October 11th 2017 @ 12:47am
        jeznez said | October 11th 2017 @ 12:47am | ! Report

        Lee, they have the third largest playing base in the country behind NSW and Qld.

        And that playing base was the fastest growing group in the country.

        With Rugby stagnant or shrinking elsewhere it was a huge mistake to cut the Force.

        I don’t buy that there is a legal reason that meant they were the only team that could be cut. I’ll buy easiest but I fail to believe this was the only way forward and certainly do not believe it was the best solution.

    • October 10th 2017 @ 9:56am
      Val said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:56am | ! Report

      As a neutral in this (supporting the Reds) I look at the Rebels next year and think expectation!! With a new coach and an influx of very good players from the Force plus Genia there is no reason they cannot be the best Australian team, especially as there is not much to beat. If they start the season well then the fans will come! Especially if they play good football and that does not mean just running the ball everytime although they will have some good backs especially the wingers. Lets hope for Australian rugby they have a great year including beating some of those NZ sides!!

      • October 10th 2017 @ 3:52pm
        scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:52pm | ! Report

        I hope for Victorian rugby and the players sake that your excitement becomes the reality mate.

        • Roar Rookie

          October 10th 2017 @ 3:59pm
          piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:59pm | ! Report

          I think they have to have a big year, and at least threaten to top the Aussie conference

          It will be interesting to see if this brings the crowds back

      • October 11th 2017 @ 12:11pm
        Dave said | October 11th 2017 @ 12:11pm | ! Report

        Will the fans come? Despite all those premierships there are ELEVEN teams in Victoria with bigger crowds than the Melbourne Storm – Richmond, Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton, Hawthorn. St Kilda, Melbourne, Geelong, Bulldogs, North Melbourne and the Victory.
        Despite winning the premiership the entire newspaper was Richmond.

        • Roar Guru

          October 11th 2017 @ 12:26pm
          Train Without A Station said | October 11th 2017 @ 12:26pm | ! Report

          Union is much bigger in Vic than League. Has a much stronger presence below professionalism.

        • October 11th 2017 @ 3:17pm
          Brian said | October 11th 2017 @ 3:17pm | ! Report

          Wrong – the entire newspaper was not all Richmond – plenty on the Storm’s victory. The Storm are massive in Melbourne now, and with more on-field success, the Rebels can be even bigger!

    • October 10th 2017 @ 9:58am
      PerthFan said | October 10th 2017 @ 9:58am | ! Report

      I have to admit as a Force fan, I was/am gutted they got axed. I’m convinced they only got axed because it was the easy option. Development and pathways were much more established in WA than VIC and as a fan of AFL, I was disappointed the ARU didn’t back the Force in a way the AFL has to places like Gold Coast and Western Sydney in an effort to grow the game. Yes, neither team was setting the world on fire but the whole idea that you “shrink to grow” is ridiculous.
      Having said that, I can’t help myself from tuning in to every Wallabies game and jumping off my couch to cheer when they do well. From my point of view, I can’t see what the Rebels did to annoy Force fans. A lot of Force players will play for the Rebels and Wessels will be coach. I still have hope the Force might come back one day in a Trans Tasman comp but for now, I’ll be cheering for the Rebels (and in particular the ex-Forcers).
      It’ll be a lot better than cheering for NSW or Qld.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 10:02am
        bluffboy said | October 10th 2017 @ 10:02am | ! Report

        Mate good on you, a true Fan of Rugby.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 11:12am
        scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:12am | ! Report

        Yes, I too am hoping that the ex Force players and coaches have a good year. But it won’t be without a bitter after taste

        • October 10th 2017 @ 11:55am
          bluffboy said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:55am | ! Report

          Mate, I mostly understand, except for the contempt for the Rebels.
          Unless I have missed the conspiracy, I’m pretty sure the Rebels had no influence on the ARU and there decision, other than the selling of the franchise. Yes be bitter, that’s understandable, but remember the Rebels didn’t come up with the plan to drop to 4 franchises just to make themselves stronger.

          • Roar Guru

            October 10th 2017 @ 12:09pm
            Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 12:09pm | ! Report

            The bitterness is the hide of the Rebels to act to protect themselves.

            The Rebels did vote for a drop to 4 (the majority of stakeholders did) though the VRU, the current owners of the licence voted against the cut with their vote.

            • October 10th 2017 @ 12:46pm
              bluffboy said | October 10th 2017 @ 12:46pm | ! Report

              Wouldn’t that be natural act, to protect yourself…

            • Roar Guru

              October 10th 2017 @ 2:30pm
              Timbo (L) said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:30pm | ! Report

              Are you sure about that information?

              My info was that there was only 1 vote against, and that was RUWA’s Stooke who soon after were recused from the culling process.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:33pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:33pm | ! Report

                Pretty sure.

                The VRU and RUPA were the ones that called for the meeting to re-consider the cut.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:35pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:35pm | ! Report

                Stooke was recused from the board vote on the basis he was not independent (from a corporate governance point of view).

                Technically the ARU would have been breaking corporate governance rules they agreed to had they allowed him to vote.

                The board vote did not include the stakeholders voting.

              • Roar Pro

                October 10th 2017 @ 4:12pm
                Crazy Horse said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:12pm | ! Report

                Funny, I thought Stooke was on the Board as an “Independent Director”. Many of the other Directors are directly associated with an East Coast Franchise yet they were all allowed to vote.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 4:15pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:15pm | ! Report

                No they aren’t directly associated.

                Having played there in the 90s isn’t considered a direct association.

                Paul Maclean would have had an association with QRU until 2005.

                They are all essentially independent directors as none represent another stakeholder.

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 10:30am
                Timbo (L) said | October 11th 2017 @ 10:30am | ! Report

                I speak of the original vote, not the pantomime they had afterward. You probably should have qualified your statement to avoid misinformation.

                The VRU had no problems voting for a cull when they knw the Force were in the cross hairs. That tune changed when there was a chance it could be them.

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 10:42am
                Train Without A Station said | October 11th 2017 @ 10:42am | ! Report

                When did the VRU vote for the cull?

              • Roar Guru

                October 12th 2017 @ 12:27pm
                Timbo (L) said | October 12th 2017 @ 12:27pm | ! Report

                ARU members voted 8(9?):1 to reduce the number of teams from 5 to 4.
                Stooke was the 1.

            • October 10th 2017 @ 10:03pm
              ScottD said | October 10th 2017 @ 10:03pm | ! Report

              Another wrong statement TWAS.
              The bitterness is due to the lies the ARU told when they pretended they hadn’t decided who they were going to cut. In fact they had already decided prior to starting the process

          • October 10th 2017 @ 3:37pm
            andrewM said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:37pm | ! Report

            Well that is something we stil need to get to the bottom of isn’t it?

            I still remember Cox’s first statement when told that the Rebels were in the firing line ‘Hang on, last week you were asking me how many Force players I wanted’

            The fact that the ARU board member from WA, Geoff Stooke was excluded from discussion whilst the ex Rebels General Manager Rob Clarke was retained hardly makes for an transparent decision making process, especially given that he ends up back at the Rebels does it?

            • Roar Guru

              October 10th 2017 @ 3:53pm
              Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:53pm | ! Report

              You’re confusing matter.

              Stooke was excluded from a vote.

              This is not some devious decision. He was excluded due to corporate governance guidelines and his previous association with WA Rugby.

              Rob Clarke was not a board member and therefore did not have any voting power, so he did not have to be excluded due to his past association with the Rebels. Though if he was on the board, his vote would have been excluded.

              Stooke had to be excluded.

              Clarke never was included.

              • Roar Rookie

                October 10th 2017 @ 3:57pm
                piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:57pm | ! Report

                Wait, if Stooke was excluded due to his involvement with WA Rugby, does that not prove that the vote was never about cutting ‘a team’, but cutting ‘the Force’?

                Or have I misunderstood you?

              • October 10th 2017 @ 4:04pm
                scottd said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:04pm | ! Report

                No, you’ve understood perfectly mate. If it was about reaching a decision on its merits every member would have been in the room. Doesn’t Clyne have a history with Victorian rugby? Oh yes, he played for Victoria. How come he wasn’t recused?

                Either the ARU is guilty of breaching their obligations by letting Clyne attend those meetings or in fact there was never any danger of the Rebels being cut.

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 4:08pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:08pm | ! Report

                Because Clyne has never worked for the VRU…

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 4:06pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:06pm | ! Report

                No.

                Because it was nothing specifically about that.

                It was based on corporate governance guidelines.

                Anybody who had worked in an administration capacity for any of the other 4 teams within the guideline time would have been required to recuse themselves also.

                As Maclean last worked for the QRU in 2005 this didn’t apply in his case.

                As Stooke last worked for WA Rugby in 2011 I assume it’s 10 years.

              • Roar Rookie

                October 10th 2017 @ 4:57pm
                piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:57pm | ! Report

                Right, so it was the corporate governance part, not the WA part that got him excluded.

                The fact that they were aiming at the Force was just convenient

              • October 10th 2017 @ 5:50pm
                Ex force fan said | October 10th 2017 @ 5:50pm | ! Report

                Clarke was the executive that were responsible for the culling process until he resigned when the conflict of interest became unacceptable! He worked for both the Rebels and Brumbies – now that is a conflict of interest! He is now again employed by the Rebels!

                However the ARU decided to exclude Stooke from a “governance perspective” and never provided the legal advice to Stook on why he is deemed to be conflicted.

                ARU incompetence and hypocricy

              • October 10th 2017 @ 10:07pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 10:07pm | ! Report

                He is deemed to be conflicted due to working for RugbyWA until 2011.

                Clarke was not a board member and did not vote.

                You had to be voting to have a conflict…

              • October 11th 2017 @ 12:39pm
                Ex force fan said | October 11th 2017 @ 12:39pm | ! Report

                No TWAS he did not have to have a vote to unduly influence the decision to the detriment of the Force as he did. The evidence of the senate enquiry points to disclosing confidential information of the Force to the Rebels, providing assurances, discussing how the players will be distributed after the Force is cut etc. He was out of line, conflicted and should have excused him from the process. His behaviour was also so unprofessional that Clarke could not continue in his role. He caused incredible damage to the rugby in Australia by the way he mismanaged the culling process up to April.

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 12:44pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 11th 2017 @ 12:44pm | ! Report

                Corporate Governance guidelines did not prevent Clarke from acting in the role he acted in.

                End of story.

                You want to portray it as some stacked deck but the fact is the guidelines put in place from the Arbib report prevent Stooke from voting, but not Clarke working as COO.

                Everything else you say is unproven slander.

              • October 11th 2017 @ 3:36pm
                Ex force fan said | October 11th 2017 @ 3:36pm | ! Report

                He should have excused himself not because of some corporate governance rule but because he was so conflicted that he could not do the task assigned to him. Integrity and professionalism were both lacking in Clarke and others at the ARU.

              • Roar Guru

                October 11th 2017 @ 3:41pm
                Train Without A Station said | October 11th 2017 @ 3:41pm | ! Report

                The only basis you have to say he was conflicted is because you think he made the wrong choice without considering the legal basis, or the separate market factors.

                It was never a pure Force vs Rebels decision.

                Because a number of factors are at play.

                It was Force vs Rebels + Legal basis + TV Market Value + Wallaby market value.

                You want to keep directing this to an argument that suits you (purely Force vs Rebels), not what a business actually would consider.

              • October 11th 2017 @ 7:14pm
                Ex force fan said | October 11th 2017 @ 7:14pm | ! Report

                With Clarke history at the Rebels and Brumbies he should have made it clear that he cannot perform the task of culling a team without a perception that he would favour the teams he was previously (and currently is) involved with. That is what a professional who cares about his integrity would do.

                Sinderberry said at the previous senate enquiry meeting that someone shown the VRU’s president the clauses in the confidential agreement between the Force and the ARU . There were four people present at the meeting: The VRU President, Pulver, Richards (the lawyer) and Clarke. Both Pulver and Richard denied that they shown the agreement to North – it they tell the truth that leaves Clarke. Also the Rebels publicly stated that they received assurances from a senior person at the ARU that they will not be axed and that they rely on those assurances….Who ran the culling process? Clarke. Who resigned after the Force put pressure on him for being conflicted….Clarke. I think there is serious allegations that Clarke needs to clarify at the enquiry but do not expect the truth to come out.

              • Roar Guru

                October 12th 2017 @ 12:30pm
                Timbo (L) said | October 12th 2017 @ 12:30pm | ! Report

                TWAS,

                You are misrepresenting the facts. Are you sure you aren’t an ARU shill?

                Stooke voted against the reduction, he was then recused from all discussions and negotiations regarding the cull.

            • Roar Pro

              October 10th 2017 @ 4:13pm
              Crazy Horse said | October 10th 2017 @ 4:13pm | ! Report

              Clarke is in the hot seat at the Senate Inquiry tomorrow. I’m off to get the popcorn.

      • October 10th 2017 @ 1:25pm
        Clelo said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:25pm | ! Report

        I agree 100%. I too am from Perth aand the demise of the Force is a fait accompli so lets get behind the team where most of our players are going. It is not the Rebels fault we got cut, that’s the weak kneed ARU.

        • October 10th 2017 @ 3:40pm
          andrewM said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:40pm | ! Report

          I disagree, they were 80% of the reason they Force were cut given they were responsible for the majority of the losses incurred by Australian Super teams. Had they been more effectively managed the ARU would not be in the perilous situation it is in.

    • October 10th 2017 @ 11:11am
      Gazza said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:11am | ! Report

      Oh gawd, here we go again with the Force bashing crowd. Never made finals – $25 million less in salary cap over 12 years than NSW, yet NSW only won one title in that same. $18 million less funding than Melbourne since 2011. Grassroots development – $190 000 a year to run the underlying Premier Grade compared to nearly $2 million a year for NSW. Force decimated QLDs list at start up – why did so many Reds players want to leave QLD? The Force didn’t offer anymore money, we didn’t receive any start up concessions, so why did so many Reds players leave Qld? Bad culture, bad coach, bad results? Many reasons they left QLD without desperately trying to blame the Force for recruitment.
      No wonder this forum is dying. It’s the same old beligerant, hard headed narcissists trying to push their views onto the public based on misinformation and a motivation of “look, i said something on the Internet, i must be right”. The facts are out there. Look them up. It will make much more interesting reading then “The Force are crap coz i feel like saying so”. Look at the funding gap before you try to evaluate the Force on a level playing field because you’ll quickly realise there wasn’t a level playing field, just Australias worst funded franchise left to rot.

      • Roar Guru

        October 10th 2017 @ 11:23am
        Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 11:23am | ! Report

        It wasn’t $25M in Wallaby top ups less over 12 years.

        You’ve just taken the 2016 number because it suits you best and extrapolated it.

        In 2009 for example the Force had around 9 Wallaby squad members. The Waratahs also had 9 so they would have had rather similar numbers then. But of course Giteau at the Force would have been on the big money as he was our highest paid at the time.

        I guess the years things went your way get forgotten hey?

        It has been a level field at times for no finals appearances still. The fact is the Wallaby top up situation occurs on the back of your team’s form, not a driver.

        The 2017 top up situation would be vastly different based on TPN, Coleman and DHP being at the Force.

        But hey, let’s not let actual facts get in the way of taking the worst year and then using that to say it happened for the entire Force existence.

        Why did so many players leave QLD? Because the current QLD captain was recruiting them to leave while he was supposedly the leader of the Reds.

        I’m not saying we should feel sympathy for the Reds, but you guys forget where you came from pretty quickly.

        • Roar Pro

          October 10th 2017 @ 2:03pm
          Crazy Horse said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:03pm | ! Report

          The fact is the Wallaby top up situation occurs on the back of your team’s form, not a driver.

          If that was true there would be bugger all top ups going to players from the Tahs this/next year. Arguably the worst performed Australian team in 2017 if the Rebels injury crisis is discounted.

          • Roar Guru

            October 10th 2017 @ 2:24pm
            Train Without A Station said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:24pm | ! Report

            And there will be a lot less going to them.

            They’ve already lost Skelton, Mumm, TPN and Horne who would have been on 2016 top ups.

            Beale and TPN probably account for a good chunk they lost in 2017, and then the 4 above will be a good chunk of that $2.6M in 2018 they won’t have.

            Then the players that did play in 2017 like Hanigan and Dempsey will only be on match payments, not a guaranteed top up and won’t qualify for a guaranteed top up until 2019.

            Only Folau, Foley, Phipps, Hooper and Kepu would be on guaranteed Wallaby contracts for 2017.

            in 2016 they would have had the following that accounted for that $2.6M (including those on match payments):

            1. Beale
            2. Folau
            3. Foley
            4. Hooper
            5. Horne
            6. Latu
            7. Mumm
            8. Phipps
            9. TPN
            10. Skelton
            11. Naiyaravoro
            12. Robertson

    • Roar Rookie

      October 10th 2017 @ 12:54pm
      piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 12:54pm | ! Report

      Recipe for short term success is to cannabalise the better team.

      Recipe for long term success is rather different, and I hope they have one.

      Well… i say hope, to be honest I don’t really care

      • Roar Guru

        October 10th 2017 @ 1:05pm
        Machooka said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:05pm | ! Report

        Yes you do… well, to be honest, enough to comment eh piru 😉

        • October 10th 2017 @ 1:27pm
          Clelo said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:27pm | ! Report

          Well said Maca!

        • October 10th 2017 @ 1:27pm
          Clelo said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:27pm | ! Report

          Well said Maca!

          • Roar Rookie

            October 10th 2017 @ 1:33pm
            piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:33pm | ! Report

            alright mate calm down.

            No I don’t care Chook – I hope the ex Force guys go well, but Super Rugby is largely irrelevant to us over here now.

            Outside of vaguely hoping the Crusaders take another title it’s all a a bit arbitrary

            • October 10th 2017 @ 1:39pm
              Fionn said | October 10th 2017 @ 1:39pm | ! Report

              Piru, you can’t get behind the Crusaders like you did the Force?

              • Roar Rookie

                October 10th 2017 @ 2:05pm
                piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 2:05pm | ! Report

                It’s been a while since I bled black and red like I used to, and it’s hard to care as much when you can’t get down to a game every week or so.

                I’ll still support them out of hometown loyalty, but it’s not the same

              • Roar Guru

                October 10th 2017 @ 3:16pm
                Timbo (L) said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:16pm | ! Report

                Most of my Outlaws are from Christchurch so in the spirit of family stability I am going to back the Highlanders.

                Wah??
                My Kiwi Family members are pretty smug rugby fans and need more adversaries, not more smug friends.

                That, an I think the Landers play a style of rugby like to watch and, in contrast, play pretty clean.

              • Roar Rookie

                October 10th 2017 @ 3:20pm
                piru said | October 10th 2017 @ 3:20pm | ! Report

                My dad’s from Otago so there’s already HL support at family gatherings

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