Is it just me? Or is 16 a nice round number for a home and away competition for the biggest clubs from England, Spain, Italy, Germany and France?
Call it the UEFA Super League.
It’s that or the clubs go their own way…

Absolutely a league cup once there is a second division. Make it a group structure, 2 teams from each division. It will help bridge the gap between the 2 divisions and pave the way for promotion and relegation.
In the absence of Div 2 involve NPL champions and some runners up and run at end of NPL rather than preseason friendlies. Helps serve the same objective and bridge the gap between best NPL and A League. Sadly the FFA Cup doesn’t provide enough opportunities.

Can’t!
Can!
Can’t!
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Can’t!
Can!
Can’t!
Can!
Can’t!
Can!
Can’t!
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Can’t!
Can!

MUST!
MUST!
MUST!

I find it strange that the FFA (and many on this forum) think that football has to follow the same failed approach and competition format as the AFL, NRL and Super Rugby.
FAILED? What do I mean by failed? Surely the AFL and NRL have billion dollar TV deals that football can only dream of? That may be true but the closed shop competition rewards mediocrity. Many clubs in these other competitions rely on handouts from the governing body because the TV contract demands a certain number of and the administrators don’t have a ready made replacement. Clubs can afford to be badly run, have poor youth development, and play in empty stadiums because their place is guaranteed. The A league is similar but without the TV dollars to disguise these issues.
Expansion and promotion and relegation provides an opportunity not just to broaden the playing and fan base but also provide competition for club administrators to up their game. Remove the salary cap and the minimum salary spend and allow clubs to work out what works for them, but insist on youth structures playing in the NPL and teams in the W League. Focus on creating successful clubs rather than successful teams.
I know! It’s all a dream! Australia is different. That’s true, but surely to succeed football has to do something different to the other codes in Australia.
And consider this. There are 92 clubs in the EPL and EFL, 49 of them have played in the EPL. After 25 years of the EPL only 6 teams have played every season. The EPL (bundesliga, La liga, serie a) demonstrate how successful competitions refresh themselves through natural attrition.

If we must accept that it’s too hard to expand or create a 2nd division then how do we grow our game.
Strengthen the NPL. Create more content. Work with what we’ve got and grow organically. How?
The NPL finals could be transformed into the Australian Champions League. Rather than the current knock out format why not create a 16 teams comp with 4 groups of 4 – 1x Champion, 2xQld, 2xNSW, 2xVIC, 1xACT, 1xTAS, 1xSA, 1xNT, 1xWA, 1xNT, 1xNNSW, 2xQualifiers. The qualifiers determined through a knock out of the state NPL runners up.
Home and away group games. Group winners qualify for H&A knock out stages, 11 to 12 week comp.
Play during A league season and prior yo NPL.
Create more content. Crate opportunities to raise the standard across all NPLs. Provide clubs a finance incentive to address.

The combined region has a huge player base and representation in the NPL/State League – 3 NPL1 clubs, 1 NPL2 club and 3 State League clubs. Despite that the penetration of SFC in the region is pitifully low.
The case for an A League club in the region, if only to provide a professional pathway, has to be significant. I have a friend who’s teenage son has made one of the SFC youth teams. They have to travel 70kms (90mins) each way 4 times a week for training, how long will that be sustainable?
If SFC want the south then they need to come and get it. They have no entitlement to it!

Can the area support a team? Yes
Would I rather an existing NPL team step up? Yes
Would I rather travel 45mins to Wollongong to support a team that represents me than 60mins to Moore Park for a team that doesn’t? Yes
Would I support this team? Yes
Would I take out a Foxtel subscription to follow a team that represents me? If I can square it with the wife!

I’ve had mixed feelings about this since it was first raised, but overall I think I’m coming out in favour.
The flaw in the current WC and rankings system is that it reinforces the status quo and historic performances.
The best way to improve standards is to be exposed on a regular basis to games against higher standard opposition. Creating opportunities for more Asian and African nations to compete against European and South American opposition should help raise the bar. Of course everything takes time

I’m glad that you’ve highlighted the need for 12 Australian teams to secure an extra ACL spot. It’s a wasted opportunity not to be able to take the spot up at present.
I have to admit that I’m not very fond of the current format of playing each team 3 times. However, I do believe that more competitive games are required – a longer season. But at the same time games have to be meaningful.

One option would be a revamp of the FFA Cup. This would be needed with more A League teams, and I can’t imagine the NPL teams accepting a cut in their numbers. Therefore, the solution would be to add more NPL teams and hold a preliminary round in which the bottom 2 or 3 A League clubs compete with the remaining A League clubs entering in the next round. This would provide some (small) incentive for the bottom clubs to keep fighting.

Should we ever get a 2nd division (with or without p/r) I’d also suggest an A League Cup. Assuming 2 divisions of 12 the format would be 6 groups of 4 with two A1 and two A2 teams in each group. The 6 top teams and 2 runners up make it though to the quarter finals. That way the A2 teams get exposed to higher quality teams. Whether teams play 3 games or 6 in the groups doesn’t really matter. Then give the winner an ACL spot.

Then the ACL spots go to
– A League Premier
– A League Champions
– FFA Cup winner
– A League Cup winner

I made a similar post yesterday in support of a Shire based team.
People seem to have become obsessed with the overall population of an area but missed the other FFA targets of converting football participants in to A-League fans.
On that objective alone the Shire deserves it’s own team. With almost 20,000 registered players in the area but only 1,500 SFC members there is a huge untapped market of players and their families. Around 10% of the population are registered players. In the winter the games are played non-stop from 8am to about 4-5pm on Saturday and Sunday. Football is huge here. But there are probably more players who are members of the NRL Sharks than SFC!
But as somebody else posted SFC think they have a right to us, and do little in terms of engagement. But this is very parochial area with a love of football and its own sporting identity.

Let’s put the SFC scaremongering to bed once and for all. I believe the fans they have in the Shire are because those people really want a team and SFC was the only option. The Shire is not a natural fir for SFC.

SFC have an appalling level of engagement and cut through. Let’s look at the figures. Approximately 9000 SFC members with about 1/3 in the Shire and St George so 3000. Let’s split that 50:50, so 1500 members in the Shire.
Now consider that there are around 20,000 registered players in the Shire (I’m one). If each one of those 20,000 and just 1 other family member are considered prime market for members that’s around 40,000 people actively engaged – and yet only 1500 have signed up. How’s that for performance metrics?

The entire state of Victoria only has about 3x the registered plays as exist in the Shire. And yet people think it warrants a third team? How does that stack up?

I think the area is in Sydney but not “of” Sydney. I generally only cross Tom Uglys bridge to go to work, and I’m far from alone.

The Sharks NRL success showed the tribalism that exists, look at jerseys and flags everywhere and houses painted blue, black and white.
Tribalism – tick
Participation base – tick
Rectangular Stadium – tick
Existing NPL and SAP teams – tick

I think there are few areas out there that offer what the Shire can

From a purist perspective I don’t think countries outside the confederation should compete.
But I’m surprised that nobody has raised the potential gain for Australia in terms of FIFA ranking. The best way for Australia to rise in the rankings is to play (and win) competitive matches against European or South American opposition. Currently the only opportunity to do that is the World Cup.
Perhaps we need an Asia-Pacific Cup with (east) Asian, North and South American teams?

Sad to see Villa drop. They’ve always been one of the staples of the league.
But always also rans. I’ve never quite understood why Birmingham, as England’s second city, can’t manage to achieve a regularly successful team.

Contracts and transfer fees are different beasts. At the mega clubs transfer fees are about compensation for revenue foregone in shirt sales etc, at the lower end compensation for player development and often what keep clubs solvent.
Contracts are protection for club and player. Many employment contracts in industry will have non-compete clauses saying you can’t work for a competitor for a year. Why wouldn’t a football club? The transfer fee helps break those clauses, although perhaps the player should pay? Equally players need protection for injuries and changes in club management.
It’s the old 80:20 rule 20% of the players earn 80% of the money. Most are on average earnings or just above, struggling with mortgages etc.
In Australia the NPL clubs should be compensated and if a player is on contract to an A League club a transfer fee would apply. Transfer fees are a great equaliser moving money from rich clubs to poor.

It was always going to be about getting people on the Optus platform, has nobody seen the BT Sport attack on Sky in the UK?
At $85 per month they only need to get 62,000 new subscribers for the revenue to cover the $63m per year – profit of course is a different matter.
PLUS for that $85 you get phone, broadband and extra TV channels. Seems to compare nicely to Foxtel plus you phone and broadband.
The thing to remember is that the EPL will only be the start and they will add more content – A League anyone? With Fetch TV you also get ESPN and can add beIN Sports. It will be interesting to see whether Fetch are able bundle beIN like Foxtel have.
Honestly people complain when there’s a monopoly and complain when there’s competition.
Move to the UK to see only 45% of the games on TV and if you want to see all of those you have to subscribe to both Sky and BT.

The more rules you make the harder people will try to get around them; sometimes successfully sometimes not. Creating an arms race where regulators are constantly chasing their tail and creating more opportunities for another scandal/crisis.
City were happy to pay and Mariners happy to sell so why not allow transfers?
If we can’t have market based transfers why not a regulated structure were the value is based on factors such as: age, time with club, time left on contract, representative status, etc.
It’s not perfect because it introduces new rules to game but it could be part of a longer term transition.
So long as there is a salary cap the rich clubs can’t buy all the best players but they can lure some of them away without compensation to the current club. That’s not a fair balance

It’s an interesting dilemma for FFA and until we see the packages and dollars it will be impossible to judge. It certainly looks like they may be considering some short term pain for long term gain with a commercial FTA. The cross promotion that a commercial FTA could provide would definitely be a benefit although I wouldn’t want them to get too much control.

The business models are of course different with the FTA wanting viewers for advertising and the next program, while pay TV want content to attract new or maintain existing subscribers. I know that Foxtel and FoxSports are separate entities but the concept holds, hence the beIN Sports deal, and is what Optus are hoping for with the EPL. So pay TV can live with lower viewership if it helps subscriber numbers, I’m guessing this is why FoxSports will pay so much for AFL even though viewers are lower than NRL.

As well as maximising the dollars the FFA also want to drive bums on seats and the interplay between the two will be interesting. I’m not particularly a fan of the idea of broadcasting all games; it seems to work for the AFL although Foxtel numbers are low in Melbourne, but it doesn’t seem to work for the NRL in Sydney where Foxtel numbers are high but match crowds generally low. There’s something to be said for limiting supply to boost demand. Although this might not be possible until there are more teams……………..

There’s a discussion to be had with the FTA over whether live coverage in a club’s home market should be blacked-out when the team is playing at home? Therefore you can only watch them by going to the game.

As I understand it both the NFL and EPL have broadcast restrictions/black-outs with less than half EPL games broadcast in the UK and all Saturday afternoon games blacked-out.

There are two things that I’d like to see from the FTA side:
1. A weekly highlights show on Sunday or Monday night that could also feature some W-League, NPL and NYL highlights – I grew up on “Match of the Day”! Make sure this is an intelligent analysis though.
2. A weekly magazine program to provide a bit of fun – but with more class than the NRL and AFL versions!

Also, absolutely in favour of a digital pass whether for all games or just for your team’s.

Some interesting discussions to be had, but you can’t please everybody all of the time.

Totally agree Nordster.

For all those that love the EPL, what is it that you love? Much of what makes it great is that anybody can make it. In 24 years of the EPL a total of 47 clubs have competed in it, if Brighton get promoted it will be 48. That’s around half the clubs in the professional pyramid. Only 7 clubs have competed every season, which will be down to 6 next year with the relegation of Aston Villa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Premier_League_clubs

For the long term good of the game we need to pull everybody along not just the “elite”

This was never meant to be an article about pro/rel per se, and it’s regrettable that the editors added that to the title. I was amazed at the idea of Toronto playing in the third tier of an English competition and what lessons that has for us so thought that I’d throw it out there.

I think that the 2015-16 season has been brilliant, I’m looking forward to the GF and think it will be a fantastic advertisement. But as a neutral I can’t help looking beyond Sunday.

We seem to fall in to 2 camps, either “we have to be like the rest of the world” or “we’re Australia, we’re different, it won’t work”.

I don’t think that we need to be like the rest of the world but neither are we unique. I don’t buy the arguments that:
– we have to be in markets of millions
– distances are too great
– new clubs will cannibalise existing
– nobody will come to watch in the Wollongong, Canberra, etc

Listening to “A League Next” on “The Daily Football Show” it’s clear that there are lots of ambitious clubs out there doing the ground work to have a shot. They’re building from the bottom, want to start in NYL and W-League. But without a pathway they are locked out. Our greatest strengths are our numbers and our passion but people will stop knocking when the door stays shut. The old soccer/new football divide is bad enough but to risk alienating more would be a disaster.

Neither is it about the next TV deal. Despite its millions the NRL goes from crisis to crisis, it has to financially support 3-4 clubs, doesn’t have a clue about stadiums, the salary cap doesn’t work, and now it’s trying to control what can be spent on the football departments.

I wasn’t sure that Tim Cahill was right when he said he wanted to know the vision, but I’m coming round to the idea.More than a vision though I want to see the action plan.

A lot of sense written in this article. P&R will bring a dynamism to the A-League that is missing currently and also from the NRL and AFL. I’m always a bit stunned that a few rounds in to the season half the teams are out of finals contention. What’s the point? The A-League isn’t immune to it either. Over the last 3-4 seasons the teams in the bottom 4 after round 4 have been the same at round 27 – with the exception of Adelaide this year.
P&R changes the dynamic by giving clubs something to fight for right to the end. It’s also great for crowd numbers as fans try to help their club avoid the drop.
Clubs and FFA please give us a step by step plan to grow this great game, not just a wish list.
It’s a shame that the Australian clubs got such long licences, some of them might benefit from the Phoenix treatment…..

If you’re one of the big clubs you don’t really need to win the EPL to be a ‘winner’, just finish in the top 4 and you back the Champions League – job done!
Having your Fever Pitch moment in winning the league is now for the likes of Leicester and Spurs. Man U want to win because they think it’s their right, Liverpool want to win it to prove to themselves that they can, Man City want to win it to put one over on Man U. But I get no hunger from Arsenal they just seem happy to be there or thereabouts , give me the Boring, Boring Arsenal back!
Oh and here’s a thought make the Champion the only automatic entrant to the Champions League, with play-offs from 2 to 6 for the other places. That would make them focus harder.

Mostly wrong but with a small element of truth.
The truth is that a way must be found to raise up a second tier that can lead to pro/rel.
That could be defined by the FFA or the NPL clubs or State associations.
Football will at some point have to decide which way to go the socialist American sports model or capitalist global football model. Currently Australian sporting leagues or a strange hybrid mix, they proclaim the history and community connection of a club but then relocate teams or create franchises.
The AFL and NRL spend fortunes putting teams (clubs?) on life support or creating new ones rather than allow them to rise and naturally.
With second tiers and pro/rel there would still be a place for Fitzroy and South Melbourne, Newtown, Wests, Balmain, Illawarra, North Sydney. Whilst GWS, the Suns, and Storm would have risen based on merit rather than be created to fill a “gap” in the market.
The problem with the A League is that it both inhibits spending by those with money and forces those without to spend what they don’t have. Why should other clubs be denied the opportunity to show that they can do a better job that the Mariners, Jets or SFC?
Football has a great depth in Australia but must be allowed to find its champions, not have them chosen for it.
The Chinese clubs show that money isn’t the answer to everything but long term success for Australia in the ACL will need a different A League model.

This is the crux of it for me. People play football but watch something else. Granted the A League teams are reasonably young but I think there’s more at play.
Sticking with the Sutherland Shire because it’s what I know. Last year there were 18200 football players and 27 clubs. This year there are 5000 girls/women alone registered and 460 girls teams across all age groups. By contrast there are 15 RL clubs which manage to put out 6 first grade teams.
When SFC were up in arms about a southern team they had about 10000 members and claimed 30% from the south in to which they included the St George area. St George has 23 clubs so I’m guessing player numbers not far off the Shire. Managing to get 3000 members from a player base upwards of 30000 is poor to say the least.
By contrast the Sharks regularly get low teen crowds, and the Dragons perhaps a bit better.

The fish aren’t biting……

There are 3 divisions in the RFL pyramid. This system only applies to the top 2 divisions and out of the 24 clubs there is Catalans and London outside the heartland.

The 3rd tier is a development league with teams from France, Wales, the south and Midlands of England and a few northern teams.

I’m pretty sure there would be plenty of excitement and spread out across the season. You’ve got the battle to stay in the top 8 over 22 rounds, a short 7 round battle to make promotion with results going down to the last day, plus a fight to make the playoffs and GF. I’ve also just remembered that in the second group the 4th and 5th teams actually playoff in what they call the “Million Pound Game”.
If at some point we get a 2nd tier we need a way to bridge the gap that will no doubt exist. Everyone can get “up for the cup” but it’s different over a season. What’s the point of having clubs bouncing around each season. The EPL has suffered from this(although slightly less so now), and the English Rugby Union Premiership is dreadful for it – London Welsh got promoted 2 years ago and lost every single game. Who wins if that happens?

Waz, i too have become a bit fed up with teh P/R debate going on ad nauseum but not adding anything new. I hoped to bring something new to the discussion. I’ll let others be the judge.

Why wouldn’t I support SFC? It’s a topic I’ve thought about writing something up on.
1. I don’t think people really associate with “Sydney” there is not a cohesive Sydney community. We’re all from different areas and a football club has to be anchored in a community. How can SFC represent an area from north to south that takes about 2 hours to cross (Palm Beach to Waterfall?)
2. The club doesn’t seem to know what it wants or what it represents
3. The whole Bling FC put me off, the ADP thing didn’t work because the rest of the team was poor, recent glimpses of promise keep geting stamped out. In short nothing to really get excited about.
4. Have you tried getting to Allianz? I’d be lucky to make it in an hour. I could get to a southern team in 15 minutes. I could get to a Wollongong team quicker than Alliance but again I’m not part of that community.

Like I said I’m heading to the Sutherland Sharks NPL, why?
1. I play summer football there
2. My mates kids play in the SAP and youth squads
3. They’re part of the community
4. Games are at more family friendly times that I can take my young kids along to without them falling asleep

SFC’s fear of a southern team is because they know that they have barely scratched the surface in terms of supporters. Rather than saying how many members they have from the area they should be asking themselves why they don’t have 2, 3 or 4 times more.