I think its interesting that Lockyer:

– Came into grade as a five-eighth.
– Learnt the fullback position shortly thereafter. Became the best in that position.
– Relearnt the five-eighth position after that. Became the best in that position also.
– Learnt how to be a game manager style player after his knee injury, having been a running ballplayer for all of his career thus far.

Same. And Slater is outstanding.

Alrighty then.

Forgive the shamelessness…I just can’t help myself…
https://www.theroar.com.au/2014/07/15/we-need-to-talk-about-cooper-cronk/
https://www.theroar.com.au/2014/04/16/cooper-cronk-leagues-real-mvp/
(How ordinary is this formatting…)

Enjoy the win Muzz. Well done to your dudes.

So, how about that. Five new Immortals.

Thoughts?

Man I wish I could write like this.

Always look forward to your pieces Dane. Well played sir, once again.

“The decision to right the wrongs by inducting the pre-war players, especially Dally Messenger, is the best decision the NRL has made in a while.”

Agree. 100%.

While my vote would have gone elsewhere, I like the fact that the NRL now owns the concept and has honoured the historic guys. Just adds a sense of continuity and impartiality about the whole thing, hopefully minimising the possibility of the concept being undermined by Rugby League’s pettiness and ongoing attempts to destroy itself. Club lines, State lines, ARL/Superleague lines…you name it, we’ve fought with each other about it…

No Hadley and co on the panel was a great move in this direction.

Now its time to get him off TV. How many people turn the sound down on those Thursday night games…?

Clyde!

Now you’re talking!

Seriously though, I’m biased when it comes to him, he’s in the grand final for my favourite player of all time.

Heyhey mate, how’s it going.

Credit where its due. And at least we agree on something…

(In addition to Luke Lewis).

Evening everyone, thanks for all the responses. Hopefully its create a bit of discussion about how we measure greatness and Immortality.

I suppose the crux of it is this: often, greatness comes by way of players who do accomplish things that are unlikely to be repeated. Michael Jordan’s double three-peat, Evander Holyfield (and now Oleksandr Usyk) unifying his division, all that sort of thing.

I don’t know if any of the footballers of the modern era who would have been able to be the best fullback, then the best five eighth at club, Origin and Australian level – while also captaining all those teams and being in the middle of so many huge moments for such a long period of time. No one has done this before. And because no-one has done this before, that’s why Lockyer should achieve Immortality.

We can make a substantial argument that other guys (largely concentrated around two positions) were more dominant. But what we can’t really argue is that no-one had the same combination of dominance, versatility, leadership, consistency, longevity and big-game performances that Lockyer had.

Was he the most dominant half? Hmmm, not sure. But was he the best all-round footballer? I don’t know how anyone with a pair of eyes can disagree.

Off topic – this is why I favour Johns over Thurston in the category of most dominant ball-player. He played a bit of hooker at State level, had a bit more overall versatility (could easily have played lock) and had a bit more of an all-round game. In my bespoke all-times favourite 17, I think there’s only one or two specialists. The rest are guys that could play a few positions.

But back on Lockyer: he had a sense of providence about him, for lack of a better term. He seemed to stand up in the significant moments, like the first try in the 2001 series after the clean sweep, then MOTM in the decider, the first series win after the clean sweep. There are many moments like that, but one of the most telling (and most amusing) was in his very last game for the Kangaroos. After all he’d achieved, all the times he’d rose to the occasion in the key moments and won the game on the line, he scored the very last try in the last minute, for Australia’s 30-8 victory over England in Elland Rd.

Then he missed the conversion after the bell had sounded (!)

Anyway, as for whether or not he gets Immortality, I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. Just thought for a long time that we need to really consider how we define greatness, otherwise we’ll be stuck with a thousand halfbacks and a million hookers.

Morning, thanks for the response. Tim Sheens was one of the most prominent voices on this one, and his record’s better than mine so I deferred to him (despite agreeing with him).

For the record, Raiders were the first team I ever supported (but lived in Brisbane for a lot of my life).

Thanks Scott. I think the key difference here between you and I is what Immortality means. Hopefully I’m not misrepresenting your view when I say that seem to place almost exclusive emphasis upon dominance. I would posit that the criteria should include dominance IN COMBINATION (not yelling, just emphasising) with versatility, consistency,longevity and big game performances.

Of all the players since Wally Lewis, Lockyer has the strongest combination of these qualities. Whether or not that constitutes Immortality is the debate – I don;t see how anyone with a pair of eyes can say his body of work doesn’t warrant Immortality. If being an Immortal means doing something that no other player has done, then which other player 1) came into grade as s 5/8th, 2) learnt the craft of fullback and became the worlds best i that position 3) relearnt the role of 5/8th and became the world’s best in that position.

It seems to be that your dominance argument will always revolve around first receivers/hookers, as they have the most opportunity to use the ball. Lockyer (Fittler and Daley also) were not these types of players. They also had much greater versatility than JT, Johns ans Smith, so surely that has to count for something.

I just think Immortality means more than being a halfback/hooker who’s always on the ball- being the world’s best footballer (world class fullback then world class 5/8th) also puts you in the Immortal category category?

Hey mate, good to hear from you.

How about those Chooks, hey.

FMD I’ve got nothing.

Thanks for the kind words mate, it’s a bit rough but I was on a clock. Didn’t realise this was happening tonight (!)

Scott,

Many thanks for the article and your thoughts. Always find them interesting. I’m going to disagree with you on Lockyer, for a few reasons.

Apologies in advance for the long response: it underpins an article I’ve been trying to write for months now (just haven’t had the time). Plus, I didn’t realise this Immortal bizzo was being announced tonight.

Anyway: I think Lockyer is a fully deserved choice. This is because he fully fits the definition of “Immortality”, but for reasons that don’t really feature a lot in discussions around this topic. I’ve defined “greatness” slightly differently than many others on this one.

The key point in this: Lockyer is definitely an Immortal because he is the best “footballer” I’ve ever seen. No other player in my lifetime has the same combination of 1) dominance 2) versatility 3) leadership 4) consistency x longevity and 5) big game performances.

When we talk about “greatness” we almost exclusively talk about dominance. There are obvious reasons for this, no drama. However, this tends to skew the discussion towards 1) those that handle the ball the most – traditional first receiver halfbacks / hookers – and 2) those who spend years refining their craft in one of those positions. Hence the names Johns, Smith, Thurston and so forth. Again, no drama with this. They get paid the big bucks to deliver the goods in the primary key ball-handling positions.

However, versatility and leadership barely rate a mention. This to me is bizarre. If we were going to come up with criteria for the best footballer in the modern era, these two traits in combination with dominance would be critical. A truly great footballer can dominate games in totally different positions. A truly great footballer can also bring out the best in a team filled with other truly great footballers.

No-one possesses these qualities like Lockyer.

When we talk about versatility, it comes with an important caveat: we’re not just talking about guys who can produce quality outputs across two or more positions – like Greg Inglis, Luke Lewis, Craig Wing or Ruben Wiki. We’re also talking about guys who absolutely dominated gaems in one position, and then learned another position and absolutely dominated games in that positon as well. Greatness comes from doing what very few others have done before. No-one did this before Lockyer. No-one has done it after, to anywhere near the same extent.

He entered the NRL as a five-eighth. Then, over the first half of his career, he dominated as an all-round running ball-player at fullback, revolutionising the position and paving the way from fullback in the mould of Inglis, Hayne and Boyd. It is true that others had done this to a degree prior to Lockyer’s arrival, but no-one redefine the fullback role like Lockyer. This was one of the driving forces behind his 2003 Golden Boot and 2000 Clive Churchill – and there’s probably no better measure of dominance in big games than being best on ground in a grand final.

Then, Lockyer then completely re-learnt the five-eighth position, in response to a request from Wayne Bennett to fill a playmaking hole at the Broncos. He also assumed captaincy of the Broncos, the Qld Maroons and the Australian Kangaroos. In doing this, he won a second Golden Boot, captained a Grand Final win and was very unlucky not to get the Clive Churchill for a second time. Again – all of this happed at five eighth in 2006, three years after being winning the Golden Boot at fullback.

He then suffered a dramatic knee injury shortly thereafter. He was never the same payer, physically. It took away one of his strongest skill-sets, his running game. So, after having adapted to fullback and dominating, then adapting to five-eighth and dominating, Lockyer fundamentally changed his game to an organising general quarterback role. In doing this, he captained Queensland to the longest winning stretch in State of Origin history – a stretch that he was instrumental in beginning with that famous try to win the series and one that continued after he retired in 2011.

Then there’s leadership. It takes a truly unique player to captain sides at elite levels and bring out the best, in the best of the best. Lockyer did this better than anyone, the recent Captain’s Captain award by the Men of League is an excellent example. As a traditional second receiver who liked to watch and wait, Lockyer was content to just take responsibility for 5th tackle options and call the ball when he saw something – which so, so often was in high pressure moments. He paired perfectly with busy half partners and active hookers (like Smith and Thurston) who could play their natural games and not have to worry about organising the team. Look at that final game of the 2011 Origin series. Queensland’s body language – and Smith and Thurston’s body language – made it clear that NSW was never a chance.

Thurston himself, when asked about how dominant he was, once said something along the lines of “nah mate, Locky’s the man”.

Cameron Smith is a decent comparison, but it’s hard to argue that guys like Andrew Johns (who I rate as the best traditional first-receiver of all time) and Johnathan Thurston were as good in terms of leadership. There were very good, to be sure. But not as good as Lockyer, even if only half the evidence is considered.

Then there’s big game performances. Any Rugby League fan with enough time on their hands could document in great depth the amount of times Lockyer stood up when it counted. This was club, state and national levels.

There’s that Australian tour of Great Britain in the early-mid 2000s when Lockyer led a depleted Kangaroos team, against a home side in a completely opposite time and weather zone, in a victory that Bob Fulton, interestingly enough, called the most dominant performance he’d seen in a Kangaroos jersey (or words to that effect). And that was just one instance. Lockyer’s considered the best Kangaroo of all time in some quarters and Wikipedia can give you the reasons why.

This guy was just something else.

There are two other standouts from an utter litany of performances: in the 2001 Origins series, Queensland was coming off the worst defeat in its history, the 3-0 grenade throwing Blue-wash. In game 1, I’m pretty sure he scored the opening try almost off the kick-off. Then, in Game 3 with all the focus on Alan Langer’s return and the threat of NSW being the first team in history to win 4 series in a row, it was Lockyer who produced the Man of the Match performance in the victorious Qld side.

In the 2006 series, Lockyer was under an almost unprecedented level of scrutiny, owing to the fact that NSW were again in with a real chance to reach the holy Grail of 4 series wins in a row, after a game 1 loss. Even Mal Meninga made no secret that Lockyer’s Origin career was on the line, a threat made even worse for Lockyer given he was also Queensland’s captain.

What happened next was something I’d never seen before: Lockyer winning Man of the Match in a truly dominant Queensland performance, in a side that had quite a few no-names. His interview after the match was actually quite amusing – even for the taciturn and non-expressive Lockyer, he looked like he’d just run about a thousand triathlons). Then there was obviously the Game 3 try – but also, if you see the very last play of the game with Eric Grothe in the bottom right hand corner looking to steal back the game, it was Billy Slater who was covering in defence.

Behind him, covering the cover defence was…you guessed it: Darren Lockyer.

And then there was also his MOTM performance in Game 2 2010…the game that saw QLD become the first team ever to win 4 series in a row. Just uncanny, all of this.

These don’t take into account all those times when Lockyer threw the last pass – often to Slater – to take Qld ahead and eventually win the game. And not just at Origin level: time and time again, it was Darren Lockyer keeping his sides in games and then making game-winning plays – particularly in big games. In the 2006 Grand Final, it was Lockyer who laid on the try that broke Melbourne and then kicked the winning field goal to make sure Brisbane had the critical game winning margin.

Unfortunately, this versatility actually counts against Lockyer when we talk about the greats. When we name the greatest side of the past XYZ years, Lockyer either has to come up against Slater and fullback or Wally Lewis at five eighth. Which often means he then gets put on the bench. But he’s not a utility – he was a just guy who 1) dominated two completely different positions 2) was probably the best captain of the modern era and 3) was consistent over a very long period of time.

So my key takeaway is this: Darren Lockyer should be an Immortal because he is the best all-round footballer of the modern era. Of all the recent players, no-one possesses the same combination of dominance, versatility, leadership, consistency and big-game performances. While you can certainly make a strong argument that others slightly shaded on him on one of these criterion like dominance (often due to the fact that he was a traditional second receiver and had less touches), no-one shades him on these criteria in combination.

And he never lost a grand final. Winning all 3.5 of them, one as captain. Not too many guys can lay claim to that.

Two side notes: you can make a very similar case for Brad Fittler, and possibly even Laurie Daley. There are premiership-winning Australian and Origin captains who excelled in a number of different positions. The fact that both these other guys rarely rate a mention is why we maybe need to revise the way we measure “greatness”. Or maybe even come up with a new category: “footballer” or something, which directly addresses all of what I’ve craped on about here.

Interestingly, all three guys in Lockyer, Fittler and Daley were not traditional on the ball first receivers. They were all round footballers who dominated more than one position. They were also all captains…but all are considered inferior dominance -wise to guys like Johns, Smith and Thurston.

Second, a shout out to RG I think it was, who in a discussion a few years back probably refined this general opinion I’ve had for quite a while. If you’re reading mate, thanks for the chat. Hope it captures the essence of we talked about.

Don’t bother mate…I’ve asked them…and asked them…and asked them…

They pretended like it was an error on the site.

I’ve asked them…and asked them…and asked them…and asked them…to get rid of autoplaying videos.

They pretended like it was an error on the site and wasn’t intentional. Disappointing, to put it mildly.

So, been getting my kicks elsewhere

What has The Roar become.

I agree with you in spades about Parker. I’ve been a fan of his for quite a while, and it started back in about 2008 I think it was, for all those reasons you mention. First contact was always excellent, particularly in attack, which is one of things you look for. Plus, excellent decision-making in his offloads. For 80 minutes too.

Probably around the weeks after 2015 Origin I started noticing that I wasn’t noticing as much of the above. I also noticed another worrying trend – the niggle. I absolutely hate that in players, and while I wouldn’t put him in the same category as other nigglers who couple poor decision-making on the field with poor decision-making off it, I thought it was something he didn’t need to resort to. Plus…you can’t talk about copping cheap shots when you start doing them yourself. You start edging towards the legacy that certain other high-profile middle forwards have, which is never a good thing.

Weird, that whole retirement thing. Has a very strange feel about it. Hmmm.

I thought the Cows were obviously outstanding last night…but I also thought Brisbane probably played them into that game. Hunt and Milford need to develop quite a bit of maturity and mental toughness I think, because quite often they seem to go missing when it counts. Not all the time, granted, but far too often. I think their fans are right to start asking questions about them. Hunt specifically needs to put some work into himself I think. Immense capability there, but just can’t seem to get himself together, psychologically or something. He owes it to himself and the people that turn up to watch him play.

I think one thing that’s come out of last night’s game is that the whole shebang is probably there for the Storm’s taking. If you take out some of the undesirables in the Sharks line-up, I find them a really cool team to watch – ball movement is what RL is all about (big fan of that new Capewell fellow, never heard of him before. Moves really well). But I’m not sure anyone can knock off Melbourne, in all honesty.

Heart is always with the Raiders, and its much much easier to openly support them now with no Dugan / Ferguson / Carney etc (although Stuart is now coaching them, so there’s that). And similar to the Sharks, I like Penrith’s expansive style.

Storm for mine though.

Harmichael! Oldie but a goodie.

Now there’s autoplay for navy ads…

How good is this Andrew Bogut basketball graphic continually blocking the screen every time I scroll down.

If it isn’t auto play and intrusive advertising, it us this sort of thing.

Starting to get a bit tired of raising this offline with the Roar editors…

Fair enough mate. I just didn’t ever hear it in my travels and I’ve never seen it quoted anywhere. Only thing I remember was Fatty saying to Cameron Smith and Thaiday I think it was “let’s have a go eh” on a live cross to the Origin camp.

Which plays into what I was saying about the concern that certain senior QLD players weren’t putting in.

Off topic – Kent’s peice this morning about Dean Pay was very, very interesting…