Taking on the ABs; bring back the mongrel

Fellas - do not get me wrong - Mongrel is not Thuggery or Dirty Play -- Mongrel is intimidation through tough and legal play -- i.e. when you hit, the boke knows he has been hit. Also this type of Mongrel is needed so a backward step is not taken. Mongrel is when the opposiiton - not scared - but they are looking for you - they know that you will hit hard. Remember opposiitons kept looking for Kefu and I forgot Poidevn -- he was uncomprimising and tough. I do not rate Loe as Mongrel - he was just plain dirty - goodprop or not -- his type of play has to be stamped out of the game. And yes - I agree - 1991 and 1999 - we won on Running Rugby but we also had forwards who were respected and who were tough. In my opinion Australia are the best tacklers in the World --- BUT we are not tough enough contesting the RUCK -- now I know the rules - bu we also must start using the feet - if someone is lying offside and near the ball - we are "supposedly" allowed to use the feet --- OUR FORWARDS DO NOT -- SORRY BUT WE DO NOT. And are we suspect to penalties if we do use the feet - YES - if the Referree is a cautious SOB -- BUT a Captain can then ask the referee about the "lying on the ground". Sometimes the team has to take the situation into their own hands -- Eals did it; Gregan did it and still does it. The ules in my opinion on the Ruck have not made Rugby better - mybe faster - but the Ruck has added numerous penalties (can go either way) to the game. So whe RUCKING and TACKLING - mongrel and not sddirty play - is needed -- WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH OF IT.

Dunno if he rates with above mentions, but thought I would put him here, because there is a good video to go with it - Michael Brial. Check out this video, Brial v Bunce : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFvpvbhuROg

Physical domination and even intimidation plays a big part in any contact sport and does go some way to achieving victory. But it would be a mistake to assume that this is all the Wallabies need to beat the All Blacks on Saturday. They will need to attack the All Blacks where they believe they are strongest, i.e the scrum and breakdown. The All Blacks have yet to be outplayed in both those areas and if that was to happen they can crack under pressure like any other team. The Wallabies are a good defensive team but the All Blacks pose a different challenge to any other team they've played so far, with their ability to offload, the lines of support they run and ability to move the ball wide and at pace. They'll have to play at a higher intensity and sustain it for the whole game and not just part of it. The Wallabies will play well because the All Blacks inevitably bring out the best in their opponents because they are such a quality side. No team is invincible or immune to pressure, but it will take more than just a touch of mongrel for the Wallabies to apply it and more importantly to absorb it.

terrykid i do not rate the Wallaby front row one bit. People were heaping praise on Dunning, placing much of it on his "work in the loose". Work in the loose, they mean his tackle+ball steal of Gurthro Steenkamp when Steenkamp broke his knee and was in so much pain you could visibly see his arms falling at his sides? I rate Sheperdson as a workhorse, nothing more. They are not big enough, aggressive enough or technical enough to dominate an All Black scrum that gave the BOKS trouble

Matt, I agree with Finnegan and Harrison for players with mongrel in recent years. What about stepping a few years back to a good Wallaby prop who was feared .... yes feared ... I refer to Steve Finnane ... now there was a man with mongrel. In the current pack? Elsom is the man, Vickerman should be, Palu should be, and Waugh is just sheer courage. I am interested to see how Dunning/Moore/Shepherdson shape up tomorrow night. I have a feeling that they will surprise. This Wallaby front row is a little shorter than the ABs and may be able to pack a little lower if they get a good hit. If I have a criticism of Hayman it is that he is quite tall for a prop and may have difficulty with a shorter opponent with matching strength. Can't wait for the game.

Hi Mongrel or no mongrel, I do not believe that any of top level rugby players fear each other. Some do provide more of a nusiance value than others, but in these professional days, most of the backrowers are 190+ cm and 105+ kg, running 100m in less than 12 seconds. Ali Williams has broken his jaw tackling Sebastien Chabal. Do you believe that he would be afraid of him now? I could be wrong, but I do not think so. Some players have a reputation of a hard hitters, or dirty players, but these days they are all profesionals and the game is so fast and physical that thugs are just (in my opinion) wasting time and add little or no value to their team. If anything they attract referee's attention, give away penalties and get to have a 10 minutes rest whne their team needs them. Kind regards KF

the comments about the ruck situation are pointless, doesnt matter how you change the laws, some one will find a way of benefiting from it, remember when kronfeld dominated the ruck, so they changed the rules, then george smith did the same and again they changed the rules and come on cliff, australia didnt win the 91 and 99 world cup with mongrel, they had packs that could compete with their opposites but it was their skilled backs that set them apart mongrel is not your style, i have read an article recently saying that australian rugby is at its best when the world game is at the running rugby style. some of my mongrel xv would be Prop - Johan le roux (the biting if fitzys ear) Hooker - Uli Scmidt Prop - Richard Loe Lock - Bakkies Botha Lock - Marting Johnson Flanker - Eric Champ Flanker - Mark Shaw Number 8 - Buck Shelford Halfback - Joost Van Der Weistheizen Fly Half - Butch James Inside Centre - Tana Umaga Outside Centre - Daniel Herbet Wing - James Small Wing - Gareth Thomas Fullback - Gavin Hastings Notable Mongrels Danny Grewcock Frederico Mendez The Bloke responsible for ripping bucks nuts out Percy Montgomery!!! (nah just kidding)

Cliff - Spot on (hope you feel better now). It sounds like I may be a bit younger than you, but even so we share the same view on what's happened to rucks and the frailties of 'poor' Ritchie McCaw. I reckon one of the side-effects of the new rucking laws has been the development of the 'Counter-ruck flop'; two or three players pile into the oppositions ruck from the right side (nothing wrong with this) but then because of the pile up of players they're clattering into, not surprisingly go off their feet on the other side of the ruck, not over the ball, but between the ball and the oppositions half-back, perhaps even taking him out. At the end of the day this is going off your feet in a ruck, but it seems that in the interest of supporting counter-rucking, and because they haven't dived on the ball, there's no penalty. The counter rucking half back steps in, picks up the ball and we have a turn-over. The AB's and McCaw have made an artform of this tactic. As an Aussie supporter it makes my blood boil at the time. In the cold light of day, I believe either we have a whinge and a sook with the ref/IRB, or we get counter rucking ourselves. In the old days those three guys lying on the wrong side would have been putting their hides on the line. bokjamiebok - Agree, Hoiles isn't there as a true mongrel (yet), I was throwing his name out there really to show our lack of mongrel depth. Ben from Pretoria Is the weather nice on your planet? And because no one else seems to have the imagination, my kick off for a WORLD MONGREL 15 (from recent times, with Aussie bias where possible): Front row - Richard Loe (thug, but good prop) Second Row - Martin Johnson, Fabien Pelous, Baakies Botha, Mark Andrews, Back row - Melon Finnegan, Kefs (took no crap from Ireland in 99 RWC), Poido, Mike Teague Half back - Justin Marshall, 10 - Butch James, Duncan McRae (did he get a Wallaby cap?) Outside backs - Umaga, Just about any SA centre? There's gotta be more......

In my opinion, the best mongrels of recent Aussies teams have been Owen Finegan, and Justin Harrison. I have to agree, there's nobody in the current team that really springs to mind, in terms of mongrel.

Mongrel - in Australian Rugby Teams - A Forgotten Art. I laugh when someone says that it is not "our style" - Rubbish - there have been Australian teams of the past - our way past - with players who were tough (not illegal dirty) but tough. These days - Elsom - has potential if controlled and does not give away penalties. Sharpe -- hit Sharpe hard a couple of times and he goes missing in action. Vickerman - a South African but he seems too bloody nice to be a South African - he is tough and has potnetial - but we need in your face. Phil Waugh is tough - getting to the ball and being a good loose forward - but Smith is better - in fact Waugh misses too many tackles to be rated by me. The front row - Why is Baxter on the Bench? Dunning - I am prepared to see if there is improvement and one Test does not make a "REMAKE" of Dunning - the AB's will see if he has improved. Palua (not sure of spelling) - is not a Kefu. Now my age might betray my thinking. The new rules - you cannot touch a forward in a ruck these days - even if the SOB is lying all over your side of the ruck. The international referees are atrocious on the ruck and maul - there is not a good one. Last week the Irishman - was b....d useless at the Ruck -- the rule says "behind the last foot (boot) of your team in the ruck" -- NOT ENFORCED --- you must come in from behind the last foot - not from the side" - NOT ENFORCED. And as for being a ruck - why call it a RUCK -- you are not allowed to ruck them any more - when they are on the ground and lying in the wrong place. With rucking not allowed and referees not enforcing the rules at the ruck -- not only holding on to the ball, on your feet going for the ball and entering from the side -- BUT WHAT ABOUT THE B...D ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE RUCK MAKING NO ATTEMPT TO MOVE. Most do not even attempt. And I tell you if there was a b....dy TAIPAN on the bottom - THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO MOVE NO MATTER WHO WAS OVER THE TOP OF THEM. Refs need to get tough and allow a little bit of mongrel -- tough play and rucking. When I played, a coach once said -- I do not want dirty and illegal play or cheap shots and no kicking -- I want tough uncomprimising Rucking -- AND -- the SPRIGS on your BOOTS are not there for RUNNING. Mongrel in Aussie Teams -- we do not have enough of it. We can tackle and are most likely the best in the World. And remember, the AB's do not like tough, mongrel like in your face play. They whinged last year -- sorry all NZ's whinged about the shots on McGaw last year but Chris Jack did not -- he said "He is a Number 7 and also Phil Waugh had blood coming from his face -- so all square". The NZ's whinged last week -- after the Springboks -- there were some cheap shots - BUT hey - you are playing Rugby. As stated get in their face and do not play them at their own game. No need for illegal or dirt - just tough uncomprimising hard tackels and HIT HARD -- MONGREL -- WE HAVE LITTLE OF IT -- BUT NEED TO DEVELOP IT. A bit long but it is the State of Rugby -- NO RUCKS AND TO SOME DEGREE IT HAS LOST ITS FLAVOUR. But I may be a dinosaur -- my kids say that I am.

The only guys with mongrel in Australia are Elsom, David Croft, Phil Waugh, James Horwill and David Pusey. Only Elsom and Waugh are in the team. Play them both...Palu only shines against weak opposition. It is time Australia went back to their 2 fetchers (Waugh/Smith) and then Elsom as a hard runner. I see that as their best option, they lack the forward pack to play a tight game...why, when you have 2 world class #7's only play 1? Ps. How is hoiles an enforcer, matt?

Zac We'd certainly get Borat to be the captain. With him chatting to the referee, or even trying to chat him up, our team probably wouldn't need too many other players.

Ben from Pretoria, I must have blinked Position Team Points 1 NEW ZEALAND 95.02 2 FRANCE 85.66 3 SOUTH AFRICA 85.44 4 AUSTRALIA 84.80 5 IRELAND 82.52 6 ARGENTINA 82.43 7 ENGLAND 78.93 8 WALES 76.26 9 ITALY 75.53 10 SAMOA 74.97 as per today ...

What about Phil Waugh? If I had to chose a player to play as though my life depended on it I'd chose him every time. I know there's cause to argue Smith's the classier, more potent breakaway but for sheer guts and courage he gets my vote.

Zac - I'm interested in principal but lets go somewhere warmer - Vanuatu, the Bahamas or Tahiti?

Anyone for putting together a team to take on Bosnia & Herzegovina?

Lifted from www.supersport.co.za IRB World Rankings 18 June 2007 Position Team Points 1 NEW ZEALAND 94.59 2 SOUTH AFRICA 85.87 3 FRANCE 85.66 4 AUSTRALIA 84.80 5 IRELAND 82.52 6 ARGENTINA 82.43 7 ENGLAND 78.93 8 WALES 76.26 9 ITALY 75.53 10 SAMOA 74.97 11 SCOTLAND 73.94 12 FIJI 70.52 13 CANADA 70.06 14 TONGA 67.52 15 USA 67.20 16 ROMANIA 66.79 17 GEORGIA 66.38 18 JAPAN 65.85 19 RUSSIA 64.37 20 URUGUAY 63.29 21 PORTUGAL 62.03 22 SPAIN 59.49 23 CHILE 59.27 24 NAMIBIA 58.96 25 KOREA 58.02 26 GERMANY 56.67 27 MOROCCO 55.67 28 MOLDOVA 54.84 29 HONG KONG 54.65 30 PARAGUAY 53.82 31 POLAND 52.95 32 TUNISIA 52.65 33 BELGIUM 52.38 34 BRAZIL 52.31 35 CZECH REPUBLIC 51.97 36 KAZAKHSTAN 50.90 37 UKRAINE 50.89 38 SWEDEN 49.84 39 LATVIA 49.43 40 CHINESE TAIPEI 49.22 41 IVORY COAST 48.91 42 CHINA 48.74 43 NETHERLANDS 48.41 44 MADAGASCAR 47.95 45 UGANDA 47.77 46 KENYA 47.43 47 ARABIAN GULF 47.32 48 CROATIA 46.28 49 SRI LANKA 46.21 50 COOK ISLANDS 45.87 51 ZIMBABWE 45.51 52 SWITZERLAND 45.12 53 PAPUA NEW GUINEA 45.09 54 SINGAPORE 44.91 55 MALTA 44.89 56 LITHUANIA 44.86 57 DENMARK 44.64 58 TRINIDAD & TOBAGO 43.97 59 CAYMAN 43.87 60 VENEZUELA 43.40 61 ANDORRA 43.16 62 BARBADOS 43.13 63 SLOVENIA 42.42 64 PERU 41.75 65 BERMUDA 41.69 66 COLOMBIA 41.69 67 SENEGAL 41.44 68 HUNGARY 41.44 69 ZAMBIA 41.35 70 NIUE ISLANDS 40.96 71 MALAYSIA 40.64 72 GUYANA 40.35 73 SERBIA 40.33 74 THAILAND 40.00 75 ST. VINCENT & THE GRENADINES 39.30 76 SOLOMON ISLANDS 39.06 77 JAMAICA 38.97 78 MONACO 38.81 79 BOTSWANA 38.64 80 CAMEROON 38.52 81 LUXEMBOURG 38.40 82 GUAM 38.13 83 SWAZILAND 37.57 84 ST. LUCIA 37.57 85 AUSTRIA 36.99 86 NORWAY 36.90 87 TAHITI 36.25 88 INDIA 36.20 89 NIGERIA 36.00 90 BAHAMAS 35.61 91 BULGARIA 34.91 92 VANUATU 34.77 93 ISRAEL 32.74 94 FINLAND 31.71 95 BOSNIA & HERZEGOVINA 29.25

Mongrel can also be described as "spirited" but also show a heritage of being confrontational and having to stand your ground. Mongrel, interesting enough has nothing to do with financial aspects. Schalk Burger's dad is a successful winefarmer, don't know too much about the rest's upbringing but the day when a South African team is without mongrel will be the end of our rugby.

It never ceases to amaze me how simple a game rugby is, only complicated by human minds. The All Blacks throughout their history, whilst tinkering with their methods, have generally held true to the 3 P's - Pace, Position, Possession. They do everything at PACE, with intensity. They get into POSITION quickly, whether to pass, receive, tackle, kick, etc. They attempt to secure POSSESSION at every opportunity, because you need the ball to score points. When you have the ball, use it wisely . When you don't, knock the bastards over. Play at pace, with intensity, keep the opposition unbalanced for as long as possible, even when they have possession. Simple really.

Elsom has to be the enforcer, the cupcake front row australia are putting out there puts no fear into no oppositions eyes. Elsom already has the mongrel but he needs to learn how to use it properly, johnson was the same in his early days and he mastered it and maybe elsom will too. Im not sure australia would fit into a world mongrel xv, its not their style, they have speed,amazing skills, the brains and have never relied on mongrel to win them the big matches, in saying that i think a bloke like gregan sure did show guts in his younger days, also guys like finnegan, cockbain and crowley were tough players