John Williamson's 'Waltzing Matilda' is back. Great!

Noel Watson passed away peacefully on Thurs Oct 10th 2013 , his last years were spent quietly on a rural property with his partner Ren. RIP Noel.

Noel Watson is not deceased or if he is no one told him , Noel has retired due to ill health and lives a quiet life in Country Victoria.

Spiro, Come off the grass, literally, old mate ... I was in an Auckland pub over the weekend watching the game... when WSM started I cringed, my Kiwi mates gave me a pizzling, I was nothing short of embarrassed, it's a nursery rhyme, a dud ... drop it. drop it like Waratah flat pass ... Didn't Peter Firzsimons mention You are we are I am Australian or some such tune - anything is better the WSM ...

[...] week we wrote an article praising the reinstatement of John Williamson singing ‘Waltzing Matilda’ before each home [...]

Agree with Mart's comments about the surprising lack of atmosphere at the Bledisloe. Once the game kicked off it all went rather flat and quiet, there was the odd chant of All Black and of course the cheering when Australia scored their two tries but it didn't feel like you were at a live match. Well played Australia, you took your opportunities well and competed right to the end. What does this mean in the context of the world cup - not a lot I believe. The Tri Nations is a unique tournament and once again illustrates how little there is between the top players of each country when they're brought together. My faith in New Zealand's chances have been strengthened and not weakened by this result as they created enough opportunities to win the game. When we've lost previously to Australia at world cups, they have been completely dominant and never gave us a sniff. John O'Neill is back, John Williams is back and John Connolly has ensured the Wallabies are back. Coincidence or not, I'm sure Australia hopes that their reunion won't be a case of Johnny come lately at the world cup but more like Johnny be good. Looking forward to seeing if Australia can back up from last week and beat the Springboks.

Gotta love Spiro's hatred of everything English ! What starts as a blog wondering how best Aus (or anyone) can respond to the Haka allows him ample room for not 1 but 2 rants against the English national anthem ! Go figure ! I'm not too enamoured with our one frankly but it's a national anthem, nothing more or less. Most are awful - the French and Kiwi are the only ones that come to mind as being anywhere near passable. But to get back to the original premise - I attended on Saturday and thought the Haka was magnificent. So did the predominantly Kiwi crowd. Yes, all the Aussies (even me) joined in at full pelt along with JW but I still maintain Waltzing Matilda is a dirge and not really inspring. As before, having said that I'm not sure what I'd replace it with though. But to turn back to England for a sec, they could pinch some great songs from their locker to sing after the anthems (the hymn Jerusalem, Rule Britannia, Land of Hope and Glory, etc) but here's the point - they don't generally need to since their crowd support doesn't need prompting to get stuck into Swing Low or to get behind the team. Apart from some sweeps of "All Black" on Saturday there was no real singing / atmosphere (yes, partly the MCG's design to blame). Contrast that to the fantastic signing / support at, say, RWC 2003 from the English, Welsh, Irish visitors especially. The few games I've been lucky enough to attend in Cardiff or Twickenham generally have had a great atmposphere at / around the game. Why isn't it the same here ? If Aussies really got behind their team we wouldn't need gimmicks like JW's cameo and we could just enjoy the haka for what it has become - great tradition / showmanship that is a part of the rugby experience. As an Aussie I've seen it performed live about 12 times from memory and have enjoyed every one. If anyone seriously thinks the Wallabies won on Saturday through JW singing a ditty whilst they slowly took their tracksuits off (or because O'Neill resumed CEO duties 2 days earlier, although admittedly his results-focus permeates through everything) then I'd suggest the search to replace Connolly as coach after the RWC will be a very easy one ! I agree that "every 1% advantage helps" but this is ridiculous !

Joshua, Context is everything... I remember being in a bar is Samoa when the Tahs' got flogged by 100, must of been the same Kiwi supporters!

Colin to be completely honest I got carried away when I posted that. Just ridiculously fired up after standing in a pub in London surrounded by taunting AB supporters. Note to self: don't post anything after a few drinks and a wallaby win...the mind tends to be a little bit indiscriminate. And to be honest, I hardly noticed Waltzing Matilda. The haka did the job, of course. Although it didn't seem to do Rico Gear any favours. Nice work Coops.

Barry Thanks for this interesting bit of research. I went to university in the USA and 'My country, 'tis of thee' was frequently sung at basketball games etc. The John Bull theory is probably right but I do know that Beethoven wrote a series of piano variations on the tune of 'God Save The Queen (King)' which suggests to me that the melody has German origins. No matter. The point is that it is the most banal, insipid and inappropriate anthem of any country. Compare it with 'La Marseilleise' and you get a sense of the difference. Vive la difference.

SPIRO - While doing some research at the Royal College of Music several years back I came upon a likely origin of the tune of God Save the Queen. The scholars there feel that it was John Bull, the 16th century composer, who wrote a tune for his anthem, "God Save the Father, God Save the Son," that too closely resembles the present national anthem to be anything but a variation which was modernized. Bull died about 75 years before George the First came to the throne. The words to the anthem were no doubt scrambled together taking their lead from the mid-16th century night watch who would call "God Save the King" as they roamed the streets. The traditional reply was "Long to reign over us." The tune is still used in the US incidentally, and the lyric, "My county, 'tis of thee," is sung to it at schools throughout the country.

Gatesy, you usually have lots of good stuff to say but that lot is twaddle, pure and simple. Looking at the "traditions" of the haka and the Welsh singing, both were initiated by the players, not by orchestrated sideshows. That's the crux of the matter. If the ARU want to establish a tradition, make it one that is initiated by the players and invoves the players in a pre-game ritual. BTW - that doesn't mean selecting Jon Williams to play for the Wallabies, even if his delivery is faster than George Gregans (}-;

Joshua, I am not sure what you want me to say... Waltzing Matilda fired no one up, the Haka was done and evidently didn't fire anyone up either, so what else is there? I don't mind them doing the Haka, I actually like to watch it but it escapes me why so much importance is placed on it by opposing teams, like I said ignore it and get on with the footy, afterall isn't that what it is all about?

This thread has all been about what is an appropriate response to the haka. Happily, it was not about whether or not the haka should be performed, in the first place. I bet that if someone suggested that on this website, we would all unite in telling him where to go (even we diehard Aussies). Joshua Carmody's history lesson was spot on. We can't expect people like Kiwis whose country has a Polynesian and Scottish heritage, or South Africans who have the Dutch/ bBer heritage to understand how a country which began as a penal colony, populated by people who had been victims of class distinction in their country of birth, where other people from their own country came here as oppressors, because it was a way for some of them to earn respect, could have a healthy respect for thumbing their nose at authority. Most of those Kiwis or South Africans could never understand that part of our psyche that honours a "larrikin" They probably struggle to understand why, whenever the Wallabies go to Ireland they are so highly respected, because those so many of their ancestors came here and continued thumbing their noses at the English authorities. So, like it or not, guys, and whether or not the lyrics are puerile or simplistic, or honour a thief, the fact is that Australians understand its true meaning and it stirs our nationalistic belief in cutting people down to size who take themselves too seriously. I don't have an alternative suggestion, but I'm sure that a county who put on "the best Olympics ever', would have some creative people who could think up a pretty good alternative.

Lets not get carried away it was only the All Blacks we beat. It is not like winning two world cups or being the only national side to be in the World cup final 3 times. As soon as we got a ref that penalised the All Blacks for being continually offside at the breakdown look at the result. The All blacks were very lucky it wasn't by more. Their first try came from a mistake off the kick off and Rocky taking out the wrong player. Their second came as a result of an intercept when we had a two man over lap lucky a forward threw the pass. Mortlock also dropped the ball over the line. Can everybody now see what happens when you run the ball more than you kick it away. John, Ewen you should take note. There is still a lot of work to do. George had a great game in defence but can you please pass off the ground like Kelaher or gitteau. it gives your mates 3-4 metres more space and time. Bernie must really hate you half the big hits he cops are a result of this. george great defence though. If nothing more you should be picked again for the guts you showed (GUTS = GENUINE Urge To Succeed ) Now take this to the WC.

The Haka is a raditional Maori challenge, inviting visitors to enter either as friends, or face the rather blatantly outlined circumstances. It is part of NZ culture, and now I believe it is fair to say part of Rugby culture. Perhaps crucially, it is performed by the players, for the players, who out of courtesy allow both the opposition players, and the crowd, to witness it. It is not done by some nominal 'celebrity' on the sidelines. It is not orchestrated to gain crowd response (although it does that in spades!). Lose Jon, lose Waltzing Matilda. Unless there is something the lads can do themselves, on the field of play, it has no part in the game!

Given all those sycophantic acolytes of the haka (as much as I respect it deeply), how do you feel now? We've won. We stood up to it. We wore our tracksuits during it...did it make a difference Michael??? Colin - anything to say (mate?) ? Joshua.

I tired to embed a you tube clip after first paragraph - didnt seem to work, or more liklely i dont know what i am doing! But here is the link:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txu5S7dcJjQ

Traditions have to start somewhere. Forgive me if I am repeating points, but have a look at what the haka used to look like when it first started: Not quite what it is today. I also saw "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" mentioned for the English. Great crowd song as well, but actually started as a black african slave song, possibly in the States. So just because Australia havent started their tradition in the 1900's, does that ban them from starting anything new? In 20 years time, 30 and 40 year olds will look at the pre-game ritual of the Wallabies and Waltzing Matilda with pride and fond memories, because it will have been part of rugby for them for the majority of their lives. Accept it, enjoy it and just remember that the dessert will always come after!

Sam Taulelei – excellent points mate Colin – you say Waltzing Matilda is a song about a coward. Right. You obviously know your history. You obviously know a lot about the Australian psyche, particularly as it was forged during the depression of the 1890’s? In this historical context, it is stirring stuff, Colin. The swagman had to walk, often without food or saddle, to remote sheep stations to find work. The swagmen were often individuals who loved the freedom of roaming under the Australian sky. And yes, some of them were ‘thieves’ – a harsh label for those who would have starved otherwise. They certainly didn’t like the authorities, as the police at times acted as thuggish security for so called free-settlers, who were themselves illegally sanctioned by the government. That is, the settlers stole from the Aborigines. The swagmen were unromantic underdogs- their lifestyle humble, dirty and difficult – some of them were Irish, and Welsh, and therefore predisposed to disliking British serving authorities. Others, however, were Aborigines, Asians, Islanders etc and therefore on the lowest wrung of the ladder. The fact that the swagman in the song takes his own life rather than suffer the wretched conditions of a confined gaol presided over by corrupt and brutal police says loads about the psychological forces at play. I’d hardly call him a coward. Those young Aborigines hanging themselves in our modern jails are aptly expressed by the song, in fact. Michael – let’s not get personal about John Williamson. I am definitely not a great fan of his music and wouldn’t for the life of me buy a CD, but I think he does a great job of Waltzing Matilda. And your other point? ‘Let’s respect the haka’. Yes, Michael, let’s respect it, but let’s not be servile, slump shouldered acolytes of all things Maori either. It’s not surprising that when the AB’s are winning, some (definitely not all) New Zealanders demand an almost totalitarian meekness to their great tradition. It is a great tradition. No doubt about it. However, it is interesting to note that the so called ‘throat slitting’ haka can’t be called ‘traditional’, at least in the sense of AB pre-match ritual. It is also worth noting that a large dose of criticism of that particular haka came from within New Zealand, particularly in light of the suicidal nature of jihad attacks sweeping the world at the time. There’s no doubt the new haka ends in an over the top manner not really suited to a game of rugby. There’s one more point about the haka which needs addressing; that it demonstrates, without equivocation, the AB’s respect for the opposition. Really? Which AB’s? That the half-wit Byron Kelleher respects Australia? That Tony Woodcock and Carl Hayman respect our front row? Did Richard Loe respect Paul Carozza? Did they respect him, or the Australians, when they refused to apologize for a brutal piece of cowardly violence? Things are not so black and white in the world of rugby and nations. I do like the Haka. It is a spectacle. But I won’t be licking their expletive boots, buddy. And to this end, if I decide to take of my tracksuit after watching their war dance to take some steam out of their emotional momentum, I’d feel I’d be making an assertive point. Not everything is about the AB’s. The Wallabies don’t walk to the beat of the AB drum. Given all these points, how do we define tradition? The argument that Waltzing Matilda is an introduced (nay, artificial?) tradition doesn’t bother me at all. Traditions are introduced, you Bunyips. Whether we, as Australians, accept Waltzing Matilda as the conduit of our national pride is perhaps beside the point. That we have enacted the singing an Australian folk song before rugby test matches paves the way for a tradition of singing, and that can only be good for the spirit of Australian rugby.

As a born and bred Kiwi of Samoan descent living in Melbourne I find it odd to read comments about the disrespect shown to the haka when the All Blacks perform it. The true essence and meaning of any haka is that it is a challenge both physically and spiritually to an opponent. How you choose to face and respond to it isn't written down in any rules, protocols or etiquette, it's a personal choice. So if the crowd want to sing a song, chant, or respond with their own war dance it is their prerogative and right. Personally I think Kiwi's are getting overly precious about how respect should be paid to the performance of the haka and I believe that the respect has already been shown by allowing it to be performed in the first place. Historically the haka hasn't always been performed by the All Blacks and previously only when they toured, it was a crowd pleasing gesture and became synonymous with All Black rugby. Buck Shelford restored the mana of the haka when he taught his team how it should be performed and since then it has been the subject of much debate and controversy as it changed from a PR gesture to it's true meaning and intent. There is no doubt that it gives the All Blacks an adrenaline boost before kickoff but that advantage can be quickly negated by how well their opponents play from the kickoff. It's just a bit of mind games and doesn't influence the result and I certainly don't recall any complaints when the Wallabies were winning most of their games or when they faced the Manu Samoa, Fijian and Tongan war dances. Waltzing Matilda has a special place in Australian culture and history as does the haka in New Zealand's culture. Neither of them are any worse or better than the other and should be expressed with pride. They are both recognised as national icons both here and internationally and if John Williams is back to sing it, I only hope that it's sung uptempo and not as some funereal dirge.