The Little Competition That Could

KDA I dont know who is feeding you this rubbish but I do know that Gordon are struggling to pay their 1st grade players and see that as thier biggest problem in getting back to the top. Randwick I don't have inside knowledge about but if you believe that the Randwick players are playing 1st grade for nothing but the love of the green jersey then there are fairies at the bottom of the garden after all.

Meh I'm happy. The crowds have been declining every week. Gee I wonder what reason Matt Carrol, George Gregan and Stirling Mortlock would have to lie seeing as how many club payments have they received in the last 10 years? What none? Oh ok. Also school rugby finished about 5 weeks ago. The ARC decimated club rugby, but Randwick v USYD got 600 spectators compared to the fleets only 1400. Sure you can say it's more than double, but when you consider the fleet actually pay their players that's pretty emabaressing. To stillmist, neither Randwick nor Gordon pays players so please don't give me that rubbish about inducements. BTW how poor is the the ABC's commentary of the ARC? I'm a huge fan of the ABC generally and very rarely watch other stuff but I heard 15 minutes last saturday and they just kept going on about how important the comp was and why it existed. Seriously stop giving a shit about ratings and be honest. Then again Jim Maxwell and Brett Papworth were always rubbish anyway.

It would be great to comment on everyone else's comments, but there is just so much fertile material in this thread. If nobody wanted this comp, we wouldn't have the volume of debate that we have. I guess my over riding impression is that the "fors" are winning hands down and the "against" are fighting a very valiant rear-guard action. Hats off to you, KDA! it seems to me that it is not too much of a leap to take this to the next stage, simply by shifing a couple of teams around. Does Sydney need three teams? Why not shift one to Northern NSW, down the track. What about North Queensland? Why not bite the bullet and have teams in Adelaide and Darwin, or Tas. Why not be a proper national competition like Cricket has with the Sheffield Shield (or whatever it's called these days?) I can remember when Tas was admitted. There was a period of pain, but now they are as strong as any of the other sides. It seems to me that the main reason that it took so long to get this off the ground, was not just the Sydney/ Brisbane club animosity, but the view that you have to be perfect from day one. Players will move if they want to get a spot in a good team, and there are Rugby supporters everywhere. We shouldn't get too transfixed on the crowd sizes, because many people these days expect to get their sporting diet satisfied by TV. Whilst I am a huge Rugby fan, I am just as happy watching it on TV, than going to the game and spending a fortune on parking, average food and overpriced grog. I think that the crowds that they are getting at the ARC are fine, given that the last few weeks, the club and school Rubgy finals series have clashed with many of the games. The only gripe that I have is that the Abc are not televising every game (even a reasonable highlights show would do), and you get the feeling that nobody at the ABC (or the ARU) really gave this a chance. Gary Flowers should look on this with some pride, and we should thank him for pushing this through, and no doubt making enemies along the way. Whatever John O'Neill might say, he has inherited a winner.

Boy I'm sick of people going on about "the importance of a national competition" and the other rubbish about the ARC being pivotal. Let's be honest, except for Canberra the crowds have been declining. You're committed rugby fan is going to be at his local club match, and who cares about the rest? Sydney is well renowned for it's "rent a crowds", but I'm so sick of people saying "I don't have a local team" or I have no one to support. oh and Mudskipper, would love to have you at Coogee. Come join, myself, my dad and my mates in front of the Ken Catchpole Grandstand hurling abuse at the ref, especially if it's George Ayoub

Charlie, can you provide a link to said original ARC plan? I've never seen the number 4000 publicised. If this plan is publicly available, then perhaps there is grounds to criticize the ARU. If it wasn't publicised, then we can only assume it was part of a draft plan and thus probably not relevant.

none taken! fair enough. let's hope that things grow next year from small beginnings.

Armchair Sportsfan: No offence intended. However, check the original ARC plan. It states 4000. Whether it is 2000 or 4000 doesn't really matter. Both are extremely "unconfident" numbers. One would think that a national competition would set its goals a little higher.

Charlie, Perhaps you are really Greg Growden given your insistence that you are correct with no apprent source to back it up. It seems that at least 4-5 people in this blog recall the figure of 2000. I have backed that up with public information from articles published some weeks ago. Once again - if you beleive you have better info than all of us here - then why not make that clear. Otherwise, don't expect us to just take your word for it becasue of your curt tone

Lindommer: The initial budgeted attendance figure for the ARC was, indeed, 4000. It seems that Matt Carroll has hedged his bets now that the competition has started. Next time you see him ask him for a more complete answer.

Lindommer Thanks for that - I thought that was the number I read some time ago. Pity you didnt have a chat to JON and see how he feels it's going. I think we have a winner with a reshuffle next year but I think we can pronounce the ARC a success for a start up with no advertising. Rams to win with the Spirit worthy runners up and Rebels third.

Spoke to Matt Carroll at a function last week when he confirmed the ARU's hopeful attendance figure was for 2,000 at each match, as has been quoted everywhere else when crowd numbers have been raised. Those who've been bagging attendance figures measured against some mythical figure of 4,000 need to get a firm grip on reality.

Nice work Cazza. Exactly right. The reason Qlders haven't complained, is that those that can read, can't write. Cue the Banjo's.

Cazza Well said! I have been to one ARC game so far at North Sydney oval and it was well worth the effort. I hope to get out to Parra stadium shortly to see my team the Rams play a home game. The afternoon games on a Saturday will not draw large crowds at the moment because the rugby playing public are too busy playing for their grade/subbies/school team. stillmissit How about a rap for the Eastwood players in the Rams lineup??

Can anyone tell me why we don't seem to be getting many (any?) complaints from Queensland supporters here? I think many of the arguments about artificiality, lack of convenience, lack of history, etc, etc. are moot. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm from Perth originally, where it was always a struggle for rugby (until the Force) to get any airtime that I see it differently. There are plenty of examples where it's not "convenient" for people to travel to their team's home games in all codes but they still do it. Fremantle Dockers supporters living in Fremantle and further south turn up to their home games at Subiaco (30 mins to 1 hr drive at least) in droves! The Force are an artificial team, but have arguably the best supporters in the country. It's making its history. The emotional attachment amongst the supporters has grown strongly through the team's adversity. St. George-Illawara Dragons cover a region that is as "artificial" as the North Shore to Gosford. A common sporting team tends to make these regions less artificial over time. Lets face it, all state borders in this country are artificial -- it's not like we speak different languages. Tribalism started once those borders were drawn! The best thing about these new teams is that they have no history, which means there's no preconceived prejudice amongst prospective supporters. The quality of football is better which means there's a stronger chance of keeping those supporters, less chance of them being lured to (or back to) other codes where the standard is higher and arguably more entertaining. In the end it's all about attitude. If people want the ARC to fail and quite possibly kill off another attempt to get some national competition going, then fine -- limit Australian rugby's potential and watch it gradually decline and fade away. Alternatively, spend your money at the gates, and petition for reform over time. Reform of an existing, viable competition is more likely to succeed than tearing it down, wasting a lot of money in the process, and waiting for the rugby oracles to propose an alternative that may never get off the ground.

Cazza, I almost agree with you...Except I am that guy on the hill with the loud voice. I am the guy who gets swept up with the momentum when my side is winning. I am the guy in the pits of despair when they get thrashed. To be that guy I need more than "Entertaining footy + good beer + great venue." I need to have some sort of emotional attachment. Each year I go to a couple of country games in the Central West. I enjoy the footy but I don't get into it. So the artificail tribalism just doesn't cut it for me. I think that a lot of the regular grass-roots supporters are the same. I hope the ARC (or it's next incarnation) survives, we need it. I just can't get into it.

I agree with Colin. If the NSW RU wanted this to be successful they have gone a strange way about it. Cazza I wish all supporters were cloned from you. Most wouldn't get on the F2 or a train to watch their team play. That's why I agree with Colin we need to make the ARC relevant, convenient and therefore popular with the majority. I would suggest that if the Fleet were playing at Aussie Stadium then 5000 would turn up to watch it as many of the Randwick and Easts players are in the squad. The only thing I would suggest is that it should be played on a Saturday evening or Sunday Afternoon so that club supporters can go.

Colin, I'm in the same situation as you. I'm a Norths supporter and live across the road from North Sydney Oval! But I've decided to support the Rays and travel to wherever they play for home or away games (in the Sydney area at least) because they represent the area I live and I want the money I spend at the gate spent on giving players an opportunity to display their skills to a wider audience; I want the game and the Wallabies to grow stronger. Colin, the Rays are your rep team. If you love your footy and the area your team represents, then a 1 hour drive or train ride to Gosford every couple of weeks should be nothing. If you've never been to Blue Tongue Stadium I'd definitely recommend going. And there's Blue Tongue beer on tap to boot! Entertaining footy + good beer + great venue. Nothing better!

While I take on board all that has been said, the bottom line for me as nothing more than a rugby supporter is that the artificial provinces and their constituent clubs make no sense. I am not fussed about which stadium is better than which (I have gone to a lot of enjoyable games that I could sit on the tailgate of my ute) It comes down to who I should/do support. I don't live on the central coast, so I don't follow the rays, none of my local players play for the fleet, so I don't support them. Therefore I won't spend my money at the gate or on the merchandise. If the NSWRU are serious about this competition (and I have my doubts) how could they decide to ignore the supporter base that is needed to get the competition off the ground? Surely if they are looking to the future then the competition has to survive into the future. BTW if Canterbury are the merchandise licensee and won't create the merchandise surely this is grounds for losing their license.

There is a misunderstanding prevailing in this discussion which needs to be corrected. The ARU decided nothing about the location of the NSW teams. All the ARU did was alot the NSWRU three teams. The NSWRU Decided the location and names of teams and the breakup of feeder clubs. As did each of the other state RUs. In making these decisions the NSWRU should have, and I believe did, involve the clubs.

stillmissit agree there is a big hole in the eastern suburbs. I reckon Coogee Oval would be perfect for the Fleet but I think the organisers want to make the facilities for spectators slightly more professional. Its a shame the clubs and the ARU/NSWRU can't work together more on the ARC. Last week's Sydney Uni v Randwick Trevor Allen match with their veterans match followed by the Fleet match would have made a great day of rugby at Coogee Oval or North Sydney and probably would have drawn 5000! I reckon ARU would be crazy to abandon it too, I think there's a silent majority of people who are positive about it. It just needs to get the marketing support it deserves and before you know it there'll be crowds of 5-7,000 which would be very sustainable i reckon. It wasn't so much the Waratahs perfromance this season, its just that the Board of NSWRU probably took the view that if they were going to be saddled with the costs of establishign three new teams they would be very conservative in their budgeting so they don't go broke again. They sought and received a financial guarantee from the ARU in return for the NSWRU agreeing to participate.