League and union will never merge

Rugby Union in Australia is leagues biggest promoter internationally. The Union CEO constantly touts league the players who come from league are immediately branded as stars because of their league pedigree. without australian rugby union fans players and administrators constantly pushing the league agenda league would have withererd away long ago. rugby union would do well to absolve itself of the ARU and allow the australians to create their own hybrid games like the USA did with american footbal. Pure Union will always be there to play if they want it.

From the international "Herald Tribune" 6th Jan 2008 reporting on TV audiences for sporting events; "Yet only a handful of elite competitions truly attract global audiences. The final match of one of the biggest international sporting events last year, the Rugby World Cup, drew only 33 million viewers globally, according to Initiative. While that was enough for fourth place, it was less than half the audience for the No. 2 and No. 3 events, the Brazilian Grand Prix and the Champions League final. By comparison, the final match of the 2006 World Cup in Germany, for instance, drew an average live audience of 260 million; the final of the Euro 2004 soccer tournament attracted 161 million viewers." The Superbowl figure was around 100million, including the US audience.

the superbowl gets an audience of about 100 million worldwide (incl. US) with an audience of about 6 mill outside the US.....

"Umm, there is only 6 billion people on Earth" The 4 billion figure is a cumulative audience for all the games. It's still a made up number though. The TV ratings for the last union world cup were announced 2 years before it took place.

LOL. I love reading all this garbage about RL struggling against the other codes in Sydney, could someone please tell me what code is bigger than RL in NSW atm? Could anyone tell me what code has been bigger than RL in Sydney in the last 100 years? Yet all we keep hearing is Soccer and AFL blah blah blah. Wake up, some of you people make me sick the way you swallow every damn thing the media puts in print, if the AFL and the A League are Gorillas in a small room in Sydney, that would make RL a bloody planet in that same damn room wouldn't it. Oh, and I absoultely love it when union fans call the Union Wc the 3rd biggest sporting event in the world hahahahaha. The Euro Soccer comp is bigger, the EPL every week get more people watching around the world, the com games gets more every four years, the Olympics beats it up, soccer WC kills it every four years, the Formula 1 racing gets more people watching every 2nd week. American Super bowl gets bigger ratings each year, any Golf or Tennis major flogs it and Cricket with its big populations in India, Pakistan and all the others would laugh at the union WC, but as usual, the morons in the media keep printing it, and as usual, the idiot moron fans of said code believe it, in the end, all the other idiots who can't think for themselves will believe it because people like the people at this site keep repeating it. The Union WC is not the 3rd biggest sporting event in the world, it never has been and it never will be. 4 billion viewers huh? So all those people who don't have TV's must go around to a mates place to watch it. Umm, there is only 6 billion people on Earth, but some of you guys are saying 2/3rds watched it? My got, nothing would get that much people watching it, not even the end of the world for crying out loud. Oh, and shreek, Union is nothing in PNG. Are you the same shreek that posts at planet Rugby?

Westy - I agree with everything you have written. The issue comes down to how you skin this turkey! At Penrith there has been a lot of table bashing and, I suspect, little has come out of it. Arguing facts is what everyone wants but it is emotion that wins the day. With NSWRU starting with the facts calmly and patiently and then hooking them in with some emotional bait at the end of the campaign and I mean about 2 years should get the result we all want. It is obvious that they are under pressure to get more out of the Waratahs thus the change in board structure but this in itself could work against Parramatta and Penrith. It's funny really, as in my time it was Wests that were on the nose and Parramatta less so because they had won a couple of Shute Shields and had the Price brothers and a couple of other Wallabies in the team. There is an issue here and that is both of the premier clubs out here need to be putting a combined story together but they seem to be arguing at different ends of the stick sometimes ie Parramatta took JON on a trip to a suggested ground for a West S14 team without telling Penrith and I think Penrith were looking at doing the same thing. Parramatta has been accused, by one of the bloggers here, of being the team that jumped ship on the issue of kicking out Penrith, Souths and Illawarra. These examples may not be true but if we want to have a structure out here it would be better if both teams worked together. It would also be excellent if there was a common spokes person for the West of Sydney. Preferably someone who can remain calm in the face of some bigotry and misunderstandings. Someone who can argue the case calmly and sensibly with a plan and an expected end result. I hope I am still in the area (within next 5 years) when something happens as it would be great to see rugby players have something to attach to out here apart from their rugby club and mates.

Stillmissit .....always good to be speaking from the pulpit. I have one mission and I do not apologise for it. To get a team a provincial team in Western Sydney. I earnsetly believe it is the right thing to do for the future of the game. We all try to do the best for rugby sponsoring local club ; picking up players ;getting them to games; managing etc. etc. . I have noticed in the last few years a genuine participation of talented boys playing league and rugby in Western Sydney.Sometimes only for a few games or at school. I want to tap into it. You and I know that this is primarily a rugby site and some of the proponents of our game have a holier than thou attitude that taints rugby at times mixing up the superiority of our game with the people who play it. . My experience in playing for Parramatta, Newcastle and the subbies is that this was very far from the truth. Yet rugby's inclusive and beneficial social nature is not promoted in the very areas it should be. As you are aware some rugby officials do not endear themselves with their pontifications. Even after winning a competition we found it difficult to get players in a Sydney team. My intent is to redress the balance. Of course exaggerated but I believe with a kernel of truth. You do not realise some of the absolute bullshit we get from NSWRU. I know that you and Sheek have sound values . My pontifications have been steeled in actual conversations with those who should no know better. The reality is league has always offered indigenous players better opportunities.I believe rugby can do better. We have a vast employment network that can be better utilised. For some clubs the NSWRU has to directly support/help /coordinate in this area. They do not have the network or expertise but i believe rugby has if it would only put its mind to it. Development resources are scarce my point is where we spend them. Even contracted players get to choose which club rarely one of ours out west. Not many private schools want relationships with Penrith or Parramatta clubs even when they are in our area. Resources are scarce it is where they go that is the problem. As they say we have a real opportunity. Western Sydney is not some homogenous monolith , there are well off areas , middle class areas and obviously struggling areas. By the way even here they are fairly stoic and resilient.Rugby can offer life opportunities beyond sport to young men in this area it is only you have to go looking for them they do not always come to you. I after so many years can sense it. I do not need the pompous rugby blokes who kept telling us that now we are world champions they will come without any expenditure. I need Western Sydney only representative school teams , training playing, touring in their own right independently of inter school competitions. . The boys need to see first hand the opportunities rugby can offer. Without initial resources or a networkit is NSWRU that needs to push this agenda. There has been a very significant demoographic shift. There are not many kids in the Eastern Suburbs / numbers are decreasing on the north shore both traditional rugby areas and rugby is losing its complete monopoly at private schools. I cannot help it that the kids are out west. Perhaps I have been doing to much moaning of past injustices. The messeage is clear I am where the kids are at and I want them to play or experience our game and the social, economic, travel ,educational and life opportunities it can provide. Like all crusades one tends to adopt an extreme position just like some of the things said behind close doors. It is no secret the greatest enemy to the consideration of a Western Sydney franchise are the Waratahs themselves.

True Tah Thanks for the info I tho I said I have no idea but it will be interesting to see if it has any impact and if the business community were moving as well. But I fully accept what you say as I have no deep knowledge of SA's sporting landscape.

Westy Before you grab your pulpit please read the thing first. I said that Lockyear would not make it as a full back. That is my view as I prefer my full backs larger (I also think this is a generally accepted view but I could be wrong) it was meant as an example of how rugby could overlook players who were picked up and developed in league. I didn't say he would not make it in rugby. My view is lockyear could have played 5/8 and Bowen half back. That is my view and I strongly believe that rugby is a game for all sizes it just depends on the position. No I wasnt talking about indigenous players and I assume Sheek wasnt either but he can speak for himself. In fact rugby wanted more indigenous players particularly after the Ellas and could have been earlier than the 70's but I wasnt in the country then. I am not sure but I think that Randwick did a fair bit with indigenous kids. You being 'sick in the stomach' is also pompous crap designed to make yourself feel good about supporting the poor downtroden from our glorious western suburbs. As a product of the very poor myself I understand what these peoples lives are like as I have lived with no food/clothes and zero or little money and it ain't glorious. Luckily my parents wern't drunks or druggies and I came through it relatively unscathed. Many of the kids I grew up with spend there lives between jail, drinking and part time cash in hand work, one of them is doing life for murder. A few of the families I have had some exposure to in the West of Sydney are on the problem merry go round. There are plenty of weathy kids who have grown up with a drunken parent or parents. None of this is easy to cope with as a kid. In my book there is no indictment against rugby as the doors were always open. In fact all clubs in Sydney in the mid 70's were keen on any players and didnt care what your background was, Randwick being an exception due to the number of players wanting to play for them. Rugby always was a marginal sport with 'limited' reach and limited cash but it still didnt stop the League taking 80% of our talented players due to the money on offer. I never saw the league say we are not going after this union player as he comes from a silver tail family and there is a more deserving player from St Mary's. Likewise I never saw a Union club that didnt want a player due to his being from the Western Suburbs. Life in those days was more village like and the fact is most players came from the local area. Your continual harping about your perceived ideas against rugby doesn't make me 'sick to the stomach' but they are getting a little wearing.

Midfielder, If the soccer World Cup can help South Africa in developing some infrastructure and fighting crime, then I will be the first to give FIFA a big pat on the back, although in reality the 2006 World Cup should have been in South Africa. Should Australia qualify, then I would encourage all Socceroo supporters to get to SA, it really is an amazing country, and you will not regret it. In terms of the WC impact on rugby, well I can tell you what is happening in Cape Town - they are building a new 70,000 stadium at Green Point, which is regarded as an affluent area - I can see Western Province moving out of Newlands and into the new stadium, so they are effectively being given it on a platter. The Cape Town side in the Premier Soccer League does not attract big crowds, and the Stormers were averaging over 45,000 for this years Super 14. You seem to assume that soccer is in the same boat in SA as it is here - private equity is already in SA soccer, and they have a system of promotion and relegation. It is the main sport for the majority of the population and gets substantially more FTA coverage than any other sport, which is not the case in Australia. Crowds wise, I am not sure, but some games apart, I would be surprised if it averages more than the HAL.

Matt, At junior grass roots level, kids are playing both league and union. They are less concerned about the old rivalries and see that players can transition between both. This is also a sensible approach for a kid with loads of potential. Why restrict a player at this early stage? The famous league nurseries in the Catholic School system, (e.g. Marist schools) play on Thursday afternoon, leaving them free to play club and rep rugby on weekends. Hoppa's son turns out for Manly Roo's rugby in the u14 comp.

Peter K and Westy There is a current initiative in England funded by the RFU and RL sponsored by Gillette to spread the game of rugby to state schools. The kids start off by playing tag rugby with equipment provided by this initative and some 25000 schoolkids are involved. Tournaments are organised at local level, but the important message is that rugby regardless of the code is a great game for both boys and girls. They can decide at later stage whether they prefer union or league. It is important as the kids grow that they are attached to clubs and a number of state schools have close connections with local rugby clubs, so that coaching and access to facilities will lead to further growth of the game. Jason Robinson being a cross code player is an ambassador, with Matthew Tait and Mark Ceuto being involved in recent publicity. When I read O'Neills comments my heart sank, take the game to the kids even in the AFL heartland. It will capture converts but it needs foresight and a recognition that rugby is the game regardless of the code. I would love to take on the AFL which is a game with limited potential By the way have a look at the Quins web site where Union nad RL cohabit successfully. www.quins.co.uk

Westy - I totally agree Rugby needs to reach out to the masses and become more egalitarian in it's approach. The wealth of talent that is missed and lost to the other codes in enormous, and basically due to socio-economic backgrounds, Beale is the exception. Other than the greater talent available then you have a chance of greater audience interest, which means greater sponsorship, which means more money for development etc. I do think that rugby caters far far more to body types than other contact ball sports, including league. Lockyer in your example could easily play 10,12 or 15 in rugby. Physically Lockyer and Sam Norton-Knight are similiar. So was Larkahm, Huxley etc all those weedy , lanky boys with a good step. Additionally I do not want to dumb rugby down just to appeal to greate masses, because it won't work, that is it's strength the variety, the contest for possesion etc. Also we already have rugby lite, no point in trying to become the same, but we do want to speed up the game alah ELV's so the ball is in play more etc. Rugby will never die, due to significant international interest, it just may become irelevent in Australia. To stay competive in Australia it faces large hurdles. AFL and Soccer are in the strongest position. Then league despite it's pokie machine and other revenue issues. The fact is from channel 9 league obtains orders of magnitude more in money than the ARU's total income. League IMO though has maxed it's income. Rugby needs to improve it media revenue. It's advantage is it can access far more people in a global market. What did soccer do to become healthy? It entered the asian comp. Ergo Japan needs to be invited into the S14 for its market clout. TN's needs to be expanded to include Argentina and a PI's team. If rugby expands or league contracts then what may happen is clubs like Parramatta run both league and rugby teams (junior and senior). Players may switch easily between the sports. The teams use the same home ground, wear the same colours, trainers, facilities, doctors etc. The benefits are obvious financially. Player wise certain players body shapes suit union far better so probably will gravitate there. The rest of the players will gravitate to which they enjoy playing more and later to which one they can make a living from.

I can never see a merger as is understood in a business. However I can see many mergers of clubs for mutual benefit. The Tahs & Easts why not share medical staff, trainers, some coaches etc, as my first example. Further at junior level and maybe beyond there is much in common that could be taught .......... so a squad of league and union kids being trained in passing, kicking, tackleing would make sense. Just on the SA thing will be interesting the effect the WC has on SA society and business not sure if it will have any impact on rugby over the next 5 years but could it change in the long term if current thinking about football by business changes................ As an example before Hal 1, there where eight bidders for the A-L spots including, Newcastle, Perth, & Ald who were from the old NSL who applied for a spot in the new league. Two weeks ago ten bids for four spots including some of Australias richest people where receivedt .......... not sure what this means in the long term in the Australia sporting landscape ........... but assuming the same sort of thing is happening in SA .......... so no idea what will happen but simply an obversation about change in thinking by business.

Dave, I mean the whole country of South Africa. Judging from your message, I would say you are a soccer supporter. Soccer is the number one sport for most black South Africans, which can be partially attributed to South Africa's less than perfect history. Unfortunately so many players were denied the opportunity to wear the myrtle green. Hopefully things are changing,. Interestingly, we are in the situation where 3 Zimbos are in the Bok squad, at a time when there is a spate of xenophobic violence, of which Zimbos are a target in South Africa. I remember a saying by Colin Meads that if you were ever going to play great rugby it would be in South Africa. I think what John B was saying that it would be boring if there was no other sport apart from soccer. In Ireland a few years ago, when the Irish soccer side qualified for the World Cup, the Irish soccer authorities were quoted as saying you can shove your GAA up your a***. However GAA has gone from strength to strength since, whilst the opposite it true of Irish soccer . At the end of the day, you can express nationalism through several ways. I guess playing a unique sport (GAA, NFL, AFL) is one, the other is playing a generic game with simple rules. In a country like Ireland, where less and less people are speaking Gaelic, GAA is a way of retaining their heritage.

If league falters which I have my doubts I believe they would go to rugby first. the question is does rugby want them? or welcome them with viable competitions?Cricket 's character in Australia is determined by its classless nature. Elite private schools have not produced a test cricketer for some time .....was Peter Taylor the last? and before him I think Paul Sheehan ...bit bare on the ground. Invite the general population in and you lose some control over who plays...Thommo, Pascoe and the Waughs all Bankstown Boys, Lee and Benaud and Clark and the Parramatta boys also do well. This has always been an underlying problem for some rugby administrators theiir children might be up for a bit more competition and the fix in the domination of scarce rugby training resources allocated where it is needed to grow the game. These comments are not nice to listen to nor does one have to agree but this debate must take place if rugby is to prosper. We have left out part of who Australia is from our rugby. Not always nice but in a crunch I know our cricket team appreciates some of them in our side even if they call all South Africans" Hansie"

John B "As I would hate to see a situation where everywhere reached a lowest common denominator of soccer being the overwhelmingly dominant sport, I hope not." Perhaps you mean the highest common denominator...nothing wrong with the 'World Game' son! True Tah "South Africa is a nation made for rugby." Do you mean all of South Africa or just the white people in SA?

Sheek and Stillmissit I know what you mean we would get all those allegations of sexual assaults like the English rugby team in New Zealand, or the previous prevalent use of steroids in France and that great place South Africa. You see what makes me sick to the stomach is the pompous crap that rugby is a game for all sizes when you acknowledge it is not a game for skinny kids like Lockyer. Where would Bowen. play ? I suppose what you mean by the rat bag element is the close to 10% of NRL players who are indigenous . You and I know that league provided more opportunities to the less priviledged and well off in in our society than rugby has ever done. This is an indictment of our game. It was never a charity and it wanted its pound of flesh but the sad reality when you deal with the less privileged you get some gems but some damaged people also. Out west we have less manners than our cultured counterparts.....never much liked South Africans give us a team so we can show our endearing affection. You see the SouthAfricans have never got to play our ratbags.

Looking at how the 2 sports are referred to on here (ie rugby and league) it makes sense to merge rugby and league to give rugby league. Thoughts?

Hurling and gaelic football thrive in Ireland, which has a total population of under 6 million or thereabouts (considerably less than NSW and Qld) despite having to compete against soccer and rugby. They continue as very popular but parochial games, without there being any real suggestion they would ever be seriously played anywhere else (and that despite the diaspora of Irishmen in the last couple of centuries). Nothing to stop league doing the same in Australia. Whether commercial pressures act over time to attract the athletically gifted to other games, and that erodes support until legaue is a much smaller niche game than it is now - who knows? Quite possible (just as it's possible for rugby and Australian Rules). As I would hate to see a situation where everywhere reached a lowest common denominator of soccer being the overwhelmingly dominant sport, I hope not.