Nothing can save England

quote "it was the fault of New Zealanders that a quartet of players enjoyed group sex with an 18-year-old girl." So where the fault ? Nothing illegal here. BTW, she's an 18 y o woman

Spiro, what an unfortunately glib article. England for the past five years have been poorly managed and poorly coached. That cannot be denied. Many players to have represented them recently have commented that their club coaching is far superior and this is illustrated by the performances of Wasps and Bath in Europe. However one cannot ignore that England, and also France, have the rawest deal in terms of games played without respite. When the new deal with the clubs kicks in then the Southern Hemisphere can judge any mismanagement. I cannot defend the inability of certain players but that recent England squad was poorly selected and even more poorly coached. Rob Andrew has an awful reputation in England both as a coach and an administrator. As it is a very mediocre England side still bashed the Wallabies silly in the World Cup Quarter Final thus reflecting that Australia still has not grasped how to coach or play international rugby. Physically England are a very powerful team perhaps only to be matched by the All Blacks and South Africa, however the lack of a Springboks scrum is going to prevent their continued success. If England can consolidate that physicality with a skill behind the scrum then they will be again be world beaters. Players like Cipriani and Tait and Sackey will certainly help this transition. With regard to your comments about Matt Stevens you should have by now realised that the physical build of a player does not reflect his ability as a player. Al Baxter is built like the Governor of California and yet seemingly cannot even push his chair in after supper. I think your attitude towards England is irrelevant when you should really be moaning about Australian mismanagement. How is it given the amount of off-season that the Wallabies have that no Super 14 coaches have developed a single viable international prop? Also Australia have one of the heaviest packs around and yet still get bullied on the gain line. Ireland are certainly one of the weaker international packs in Europe and did untold damage. Also pertaining to player behaviour have you forgotten Dunning's cab antics or Sheperd's car jumping tricks or even the continued allegations of alcoholic behaviour within the Wallaby squad? Oh, hang on, I forgot the Quokka Olympcis too. Please can we have some balanced responses in the future. Maybe if Australia achieved in the near future there would be room to gloat, currently there is not.

Sledgehammer Rugby in Scotland has been struggling at the professional level. They originally had four regional sides, but that has been reduced to two teams, Edinburgh and Glasgow. It appears the SRU was unable to support the four regional sides. By they are independent in outlook and would not take too kindly to go cap in hand to the "old enemy". In hindsight perhaps instead of pursuing the regional set up the SRU should have extablished a stronger club structure building on the traditional loyalities of the spectator, which happened in England, by default as the RFU were so slow to embrace the realities of the professional era. However the present structure seems to work and will not drive the SRFU into financial problems. Both teams play in the Magners League and other competitions, which involve professional teams from Wales and Ireland. They also take part in the Heinekin Cup, not to succesfully to date but the gap is closing and I am sure in future years they will take part in the later stages. At grassroots level the game is growing and being played in more schools, very similar to growth in England. Mart I put a different spin on the imports into the GP from the SH,France , Fiji, Argentins et al as it has brought a different prespective to English club rugby. It has been good for the younger English players who are coming through as they train and compete with these players for places in their club squads. Inevitably as the academy system begins to bear fruit more English players will come through and the journeyman professional from outside England may find his opportunities limited and only the cream will be offered contracts. At the moment the ratio is approx 65% English/35% imports. From July 1st, the new club/country agreement will start and Martin Johnston will choose two squads of 32 each. The main elite squad will limited to a certain number of games they can play each season and they will be released from their clubs for squads sessions. They will be excluded from playing for their clubs for the Autumn Internationals and the 6N's as they will be with the England squad. Clubs with players in the elite squad will be receive compensation of I think £145,000 for each player chosen. The squad initially chosen will be fixed for the entire season. It is hoped that by the players having more time together it will develope a more cohesive and expansive style of rugby than in the past. The other squad of 32 will be chosen for the Saxons (England A), they will train on occassions with the elite squad but will not be underr the same constraints as the elite squad. The success or otherwise of this new structure will monitored by the Professional Group Working Party, which has representatives from The RFU, GP clubs, professional players association, and other nominees whose task will be to monitor how it works and deal with issues as they arise. These are very significant changes for elite English rugby in the professional era, but it needs time to work and I hope people will not overreact if there are initial difficulties. The clubs realise that to have a successful England team raises the profile of the professional game and players such as Cipriani, Haskell etc who are the new breed will be excellent role models to attract more players and spectators to rugby.

Gents - ignoring the petty 'you're crap', 'no you're crap' stuff....Spiro made a valid point that Pom national rugby may never progess when so many imports are in the Pom premiership (same argument as what has happened in cricket and soccer there). Fair point. But the difference with the SH is players are contracted to clubs. If one club signs up several overseas 'stars' then it leads to a me too syndrome - since most clubs are owned by one or a few powerful individuals it would be a brave club that stuck with raw, untested, but talented kids. So they don't. So the club comp is thriving (look at the money associated with the Heineken and TV rights - again, this is what the owners want), But all of this is detriment to the national team. One solution would be to do what the SH do - have the union state that any non-nationals not playing in the league are not available for national selection. But if you are a Pom club - who cares ? Also the EEC contract laws (see soccer) give players a fair degree of freedom here too. Spiro - you are correct this aint good for the Pom national team. But given the UK-based players are contracted to clubs and not the union what do you suggest can be done to redress the situation ? Seriously, I'd love to know answers since it seems to me the clubs hold the aces. One good thing about the Woodward reign is he thrashed an agreement out with the clubs around the 2003 RWC that (gasp !) allowed the national team squad decent rest, team practice time etc....not suprisingly they looked more like a team than the current incarnation (the agreement fell apart when Woodward did). Seems to me that unless a solution is found to this conundrum the problem will never change / be resolved ?

Hi Ian, Regarding UK rugby more broadly, is it true that rugby in Scotland is struggling a bit? If so do you see any ways in which the English success at grass roots level could be replicated there? Does the RFU use its resources to assist with the growth of rugby in its neighbouring unions? Would be interested to learn more.

Spiro I think coaching has alot to answer for and I hope Johnston takes the opportunity to overhaul the English coaching group. As for pleying to the margins, both sides are as guilty as each other in looking for an advantage to win the game/test. The problem may be refereeing, buit there is a fine balance between continuing stopping play for infringements and keeping the game flowing. I am intrigued by some of the postings which illustrates a lack of understanding about the English game. The real strength of the game is not at the International level but at community and grassroots, participation and the rugby ethos are the keys. The International side is the tip of the iceberg and whilst everyone England supporter would like to see success, there are still those who are unhappy about the direction professional rugby is taking the game. Anyway I am quite happy for England to be written off, we are resilient and when it counts many countries will on balance prefer to avoid playing England.

Spiro, Being a Pom (currently living in Sydney) it gives me absolutely no pleasure seeing the stodgy rugby England are currently playing ( and have been for a few years) and we're all hoping that Martin Johnson is going to shake things up a bit (or better still- a lot!). We just can't understand the depth of anger you feel towards them, it's a bit bemusing bordering on the comical. Cherry picking incidents out of games of rugby to prove your point that you know more than the referee is also a bit weak. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily side with the press in the NH, I like interesting and insightful sports writing I was just hoping you and Stephen Jones could swop email addresses so nobody else has to get dragged into your petty schoolboy stoush and you can write real articles for us all to read rather than the usual 'All stuff in the NH is evil' that you usually trot out ps we all think Rob Andrew is a waste of space too.

According to various English sympathisers on this thread, us SH rugby fans are simultaneously whingeing and gloating...Not quite sure how that works ? Trust me there is nothing to gloat about watching a team play such poor rugby as what England have dished up in the last two "tests" ? Funnily I dont think the ABs would consider themselves tested. And we aren't whingeing....just bemoaning the fact that somewhere along the way European rugby went the way of European soccer and started embracing the concept of friendlies....

Oh dear, where would Australians be without the old Poms to kick - oh! the cultural cringe so many of you are still suffused with. Thanks to you drongos I find myself standing up for the English every now and then! Almost unheard of for a Welshman.Oh yes, and don't forget to blame an Irish referee or two just to round it off. You have no idea how pathetic this wingeing sounds, just like a bleating colonial outpost ! They can't hear you in London boys and they couldn't care less. Now remind me, which NH team made the last two RWC finals and when did Australia last beat England? And what was that about 7's Spiro;so when did Australia last beat England at an IRB 7's? ( picture - Spiro ruffling through his files) See you in Cardiff and Twickenham in November when win lose or draw no doubt Australians will find plenty to winge about - the weather,the pitch,the dastardly English press, the players are so tired after a long season(!),the beer is warm, the referees,Blodwen the waitress........

Bob said; 'Had the incompetent Irish referee at RWC 2007 been up to similar speed, England wouldn’t have made it past the quarter final.' Yes Bob. The ref was to blame for the pack of school girls the Wallabies sent to scrum.

Spiro - you're spot on with this article. It occurred to me last night while I was doing nothing in particular, that there is no upside in England sending a strong team south. If they send their best and they get beaten, it simply proves once again that they can't win in the south, particularly in NZ. A strong team also helps the southern nations by bringing in big gates, and the RFU has proven time and time again that they have no interest in giving the south a leg up. They are actually better off sending a weak side. When they get beaten there is a ready made excuse, and it keeps money out of the coffers of the SANZAR nations. An interesting few seconds of vision on a Fox replay this morning showed a quick cut to Rob Andrew in the coaches box during a break in play. England were 30 points down, NZ were hard on attack and had just had a try disallowed, and unbelieveably, Andrew was having a good old chuckle. When he realised he was on camera, he sobered up very smartly. Obviously wasn't too concerned by events unfolding in front of him.

Spiro The siutation with Mike Phillips is complicated the Ospreys offered him a shed load of money to leave Cardiff Blues and he took the money. It doesn't matter if 33% of the English league is overseas as they have 12 teams. Wales has the problem that it only has four teams. 11 of the 22 who played in Pretoria do not start for their team. It has been suggested that Wales follow in Australia's foot steps and expand taking the example of The Brumbies and The Force. The Valleys need a team and so does North Wales, it has the stadium already in Wrexham. So when I win one of our Lotto's in the U.K I may have to do it.

Spiro Here we go again What a great weekend for English sport, losses to the AB’s, Baby AB’s in rugby and to the Black Caps in cricket. Hamilton is penalised and comes in 10th in the French GP, Toseland falls off his bike within 10 seconds of the start of the Moto GP, British GP (winner was a Aussie who name I forget), only one medal at the Rowing World Cup, thank god England are not in Euro 2008!! However, today the sun is shining and it is the first day of Wimbledon. Martin Johnson is on the horizon. The FA is to invest £64M in a new centre of football excellence. MCC have approved the switch hit (subject to ICC approval) and mass suicide is not around the corner. Seriously the tour to NZ was to the say the least a bit of a shambles both on and off the pitch. On the playing front I got the feeling that for some of the players after playing in excess of 30 matches had had enough and the only ones who came out with credit were probably the back row three of Rees, Haskell and Naraway, pity Croft did not get more game time, Tait who should be found a permanent position and Care. There were some who failed miserably and will probable never play for England again. The quality of coaching of the England team causes me great concern. I hope Johnson will address this problem as I am not convinced that the existing forward coach has the vision for the modern game. I am sure the players found it difficult and probably disconcerting that the quality of the existing coaches was poorer than the coaching they receive at club level. Johnson also has another problem; he has to pick an elite squad of 32 by 1st July under the new club/country agreement which will be fixed for the entire season. I think the NZ tour has raised significantly more questions than answers and I suspect some of the injured players who missed the trip to NZ are relieved they were not involved. Off the field activities have been well documented other than to say I was staggered to read that there is no formal code of conduct and that will be addressed by 1st July. Interestingly Barron consulted his NZRU counterparts “Talking with my colleagues in the New Zealand Rugby Union, who have had incidents like this in the past, they have moved to a much more prescriptive code of conduct about women being allowed into the team hotel. This is the first time the England team has got into this position. It is distressing to everybody involved. In a way it makes us determined to do whatever we can to ensure such a set of circumstances never happens again.” As for the RFU, your favourite target, I will not say they are perfect but as they have grasped the professional era the overall running of the game in England has changed. It is very profitable with all the executives on performance related contracts to drive through more efficiencies and greater profits, yet in spite of that more males are playing rugby and in particular there are now close to 60,000 females playing rugby. It is an enormous success story and indicative of the drive to sell the game to all age groups and sexes through good organisation and marketing initiatives. Perhaps ARU could learn something; by the way some of the marketing initiatives have been together with Rugby League as there is a need to sell rugby to state schools, in particular through tag rugby as a vehicle to sell the message regardless of the code. To avoid confusion the professional clubs have their own structure however a joint group has been created between the GP clubs and the RFU to monitor the professional game, which becomes active from July 1st. The RFU has only two votes on the IRB council, so their influence is limited when it comes to law changes and the award of RWCs. In England prior to the decision for RWC2011 there was a considerable ground swell for Japan and post the decision the rumblings continue. I don’t know which way the RFU voted. As for 2015, because of the timing insisted upon by IRB it looks as though England will team up with Wales, because the timing adversely affects the availability of stadia. Whether they will bid is in the lap of the gods, as for 1991 I didn’t hear any adverse criticism, if there were criticisms can’t we grow up and move on. I am sure others have learnt from mistakes at every RWC, as the RWC is now a major worldwide tournament. Just hope NZ can cope. On the question of ELVs you may have heard that an Argentinean player has just died as a result of a collapsing maul, so I would urge the RFU to resist this change. The RFU have unilaterally banned the change for all groups under the age of 19. This followed an outcry from school teachers and club coaches across England who were concerned about the danger to younger age groups, we can not afford for rugby to become the harbinger of injury through a stupid law change. Briefly turning to the U20’s and the IRB 7’s, both are seen as developmental opportunities. I agree with you it is a pity that the clubs and the RFU don’t release some of the top 7’s players to play for England. Perhaps for the IRB 7’s World Cup in Dubai England might turn out a decent seven but don’t hold your breath. The women will do well as they recently beat NZ in a 7’s tournament. The U20’s will improve but a lot will dependent on the particular year and their abilities, but from this year there are probably only three or four who might make it to the next level. All is not dead in England; some significant changes are happening from July 1st and whilst I am not hoping for an immediate impact there will be improvements. As you pointed out on another blog the body shape of the younger English players is different from their predecessors as they have more time in the professional era to be more conditioned and fitter, Haskell, Tait, and Naraway are the first graduates from the academy system and more will follow. .

Interesting to see England getting caned by the referee for going off their feet at rucks and being admonished for dawdling around the field to the next set piece. Had the incompetent Irish referee at RWC 2007 been up to similar speed, England wouldn't have made it past the quarter final.

In much the same way that Australia finishing runner up in 2003 created a false impression of the strength of Australian rugby, England are becoming guilty of committing the same offence. Proclaiming that playing in three world cup finals and two of them back to back proves they know better than other countries (read NZ) in how to win rugby games overlooks the fact they have the worst record of any World Cup winning team. The false economy and strength of their domestic competitions which is supplemented by so many foreign imports will remain unchecked as long as clubs are able to write big cheques to sign the star players. The short term gains will eventually retard and not progress the strength of English rugby as I witnessed in watching the final of the U20 World Cup. NZ and England featured many players that played against each other in the World U19 tournament in Belfast the year before and England had high hopes going into the match with their performances in the Six Nations and their wins against Australia and SA. But like their senior counterparts they had no answer to the pace and precision of the NZ attacks and offered little in asking questions of the NZ defence. (It should be said that NZ U20's performance was far more efficient and clinical than the All Blacks). It was evident that England had not progressed much since their last meeting and if they are the future of English rugby, and you would expect some to filter through the system in the coming years ahead of the world cup, then what does that say about their state of the game? England possess some outstanding talent but apart from the golden run from 2000 - 2003 they appear hesitant and unsure of how to harness that talent and how to best make use of it - refer to how players like Tait, Varndell, Barkley, Simpson-Daniel, Anthony Allen have been so quickly selected and then dumped. Yes Tiger Face the label of chokers is dispensed in NZ's direction with great glee and delight by our opponents but I accept that the record of excellence and success NZ enjoys in rugby isn't replicated at the world cup yet, but it still gives us something to aspire to and aim for. What by the same measure is England aiming for exactly?

"played in Europe to packed out stadums" Where?

I can't understand the English mentality of being OK with Test match losses so long as England does well in the World Cup. I'd rather win 40-odd Tests in four years than finish runner-up in a World Cup. I don't think English fans realise that we want to see a strong English side and even stronger Lions sides.

Spiro - the difference between Europe and SH is Europe doesn't have protectionism and parochialism in its veins. European sport from football to rugby is about the free movement of talent. Where ever it may come from. This mentality is deeper than sport, it's about looking outside your borders accepting difference and welcoming the best even to the detriment of your own. It's the reason Rugby is played in Europe to packed out stadums and awash with cash as opposed to the endless chirps in Australia about the death of union, empty stadia and increasingly desperate attempts to make the game more exciting for foxtel subscribers with the attention span of a small child. If you aren't scoring they might start snoring. England are currently lacking in lots of areas but I'm not gonna listen to Australians and Kiwi's gloat. I'll take it from the Saffers who deliver but from the SH's primary chokers, don't make me laugh. Yes, you too Aussies. Quick question....which code of football do you think has the greatest chance of dying in Australia? You don't have time to laugh at England, you have bigger issues to tackle.