The English football team: a class below

Indeed Slippery this blog was dead and very much buried, cheers for resussitating it! Good to lock horns with a fellow Football nut, will no doubt catch you on here some other time, I shall steer clear of national teams for now, perhaps look at European Football as a whole :P

Towser...agree......play a robot......leave Hoddle/Barnes on sideline......My god they even did it it 66.

Westy Perhaps Spain is not the best example to emphasise the point I was making. But it was current & in front of my face so I ran with it. Long term Brazil would have been a better example. Spain may have turned a corner as you state. Time will tell. Regardless of comparisons the deficiencies of the English football system will remain until a different mindset is adopted.

Wow - I'm amazed that my comment on Tuesday (admittedly a cheap attempt to get the last word, in retrospect) has applied the defibrillators to what I had assumed an otherwise dead and buried blog! Despite our differences, Sunil, I actually do appreciate that your main piece was well written, if not your subsequent comments, and have enjoyed our tussle. I look forward to your next piece, no doubt deriding another national team. Can I suggest Holland as a likely target? Fizzle out after a bright start and all that...

Towser.... although I acknowledge much of what you say I am uncomfortable with your comparison to Spain. If there is one major European power that have underperformed time and again on the international stage it is Espania. Their lack of silverware skills or not speaks for itself. One campaign does not make up for decades of underachievement relative to the strength of their players and home league.Spain's poor football history on the internatinal plane speaks for itself. Hopefully Spain has entered a new era .

Sunil, I have nothing against Gerrard, I think he is a fine player, as I have already said to you, I know about the MBE, it is lovely that the queen fancies him as well. If I may just add to that the the people's princess, Lady Di was actually a Chelsea supporter ;) Gerrard, it must be said, also scores from deflections, here are three random examples: http://www.oleole.com/blogs/football-football-and-more-football/posts/lucky-number-8 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/4501105.stm http://www.4thegame.com/features/feature/159027/.html (right down the bottom of page) I'm not sure how much you actually follow football, since Lampard scored in the last UEFA Champions League final against Man Utd...there is far more to his game than just goals, as shown by his assist in a lovely one-two move with Drogba to win the FA Cup Final. I believe I have already explained that Lampard (22) has scored more goals for England than Gerrard (14). Gerrard's goal shortfall is also evident at Stamford Bridge, where he has never scored a goal. He has also been voted England Fan's player of the year more than Gerrard, which disproves your hopeful "English fans the world over will pick him over Frank" assertion. As PommyAussie has said, transfer prices are no real indication of player talent, however it bears mentioning that Lampard is currently on an incredible £120,000 a week salary at CFC, which will go up next season, and Inter have offered to better that wage, which will make him one of the highest payed footballers on the planet. I doubt any club would pay that much for someone who wasn't world class. You show your lack of class once again by telling me to "shut your mouth", very odd for someone who invites comment by writing a blog article. What is most Ironic is that our discussion mereley highlights the talent and value both of Gerrard and Lampard, which kind of puts paid to the whole "England - a Class Below" theory, wouldn't you say?

This argument is a joke, and only about each person's preferred player. I'd take to the park quite happily with either, and for that matter be happy with either taking Aussie nationality and becoming a Socceroo. Less so John Terry who is a dogged little bugger, but in no way a modern footballer. More seriously, behind this surface debate is the issue that the EPL has become so big in marketing terms as to be totally inflated perceptually compared to other leagues. These guy's we're talking of are pretty much all we see so they are built up over other equally worthy players from other leagues. Also, as we're so exposed to the British club game, we also get drawn in by proxy to the English national team... Then again, I can't talk in terms of my preferred league and country. Based on their Euro 2008 performance, Les Bleus may just as well not have bothered qualifying either :-)

I've been reading your little disagreement for a while now. I'm English and if i had the straight choice of Lampard and Gerrard then i'd chose Gerrard for his leadership qualities, but Lampard is no mug. Don't be fooled into thinking he is, he more than holds his own in the Champs League and the EPL (better than most). I don't agree with the notion that his goals are deflections and penalties, that simply isn't true (judging on the stats i've seen) and so what if they were, a goal is a goal, good on him for being in the right place at the right time....isn't that a sign of a good player? I bet any self respecting A-League team or the Socceroos would love it if he was Aussie. (Just syaing that as this is an Aussie website). As for Jose only offering 7 million quid that isn't due to how good or bad he thinks he is it because he has one year on his contract and he's forcing Chelsea's hand.

Oh dear Slippery, it appears you have kindly missed out on more valuable information regarding Steven Gerrard MBE, and instead focussed your attention to much on Frank Lampard Jr, England's greatest Pie Eater. Mr Gerrard has been voted fans player of the year in 2007 in case you missed that, his MBE came for his outstanding contributions to Football notably in the FA Cup Final 06 and CL final 05, (in case you missed it he scored a 25m belter to level the scores in the FA Cup final, that is what we call a 'shot on target', no deflection to speak of :D) he has also been nominated for FIFA player of the year 05-07. At the risk of sounding like a broken, but correct record, PFA team of the year for the past 5 years, UEFA team of the year 04-05, 05-06,06-07 and something you have missed, the FANS PLAYER OF THE YEAR 2000 -2002, and players player of the year 05-06! My godfather that is a whole lot of medals to put in the pool room So let’s see Mr Slippery, he has the endorsement of Kaka, one of the world’s best. He has the endorsement of UEFA, the fans of English football, the English Government, FIFA, UEFA, and fellow English players, this is not just on one occasion, or for one season, or for scoring a Speight of shite goals or playing well in a team that wins consistently (but in a very boring manner) These awards date back to 2000, for eight years, for eight years Steven Gerrard has been one the premier players in the world, English fans the world over will pick him over Frank, who can play well in a good team, but would not show a shadow of inspiration if the chips were down, why isn't he being considered for the English captaincy? Because of this sheer fact. Gerrard does not edge it over Lampard, he smashes him, which of the two has scored in an FA cup final, a CL final and a World Cup match? Correct! Gerrard is a big game player, a man of the hour, the one who will seize the day, and playing for England requires this type of inspiration Shut your mouth, I've done my research, say what you like about Lampard being 'statically' better or whatever, he does not do the tracking back, the passing, the tackling, the inspiring or have an ounce of the leadership Gerrard has.

"has he been in the EPL team of the year for the last 5 years running?" Oh, I forgot to answer this question. Yes he has, twice...keep googling, Sunil, the truth is bound to penetrate eventually after you get off those tabloid pages and Scouser fan sites and get to some cold hard facts ;)

ANY PERSON WITH A FOOTBALL BRAIN WILL TELL U LAMPARD IS SHITE!!!!! Please refer to my post Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:07am You are saying that Ronaldinho doesn't have a football brain. Get a grip son. Nothing Steven Gerrard has done has even come close to being voted runner up for world or even European player of the year. Nor has Steven Gerrard been voted England Fan's player of the year. Lampard has, for two consecutive years. If you still want to be fly against reason due to your Liverpool bias and insist that Lampard's goals are all deflections, I can only quote Martin Samuel of The Times who sarcastically put it: "what a lucky boy he must be: 83 deflections since August 2003". Of course, since Martin Samuel made that comment, the total goals Lampard has scored since 2003 is now well over 100 and counting...and that is just at club level. Steven Gerrard is barely three quarters of the way to achieving the same goal tally, despite the fact that the Liverpool squad is built around him.

Er yeh I have just googled like a million things relating to Frank Lampard and fitness and the best results seem to be regarding pie eating contests *thumbs up* Even if young Fatty should be the fittest, this 'Stevie Me' you speak of has more talent in his little toe then the Fat penalty taking/ tap in specialist. Great that he was voted second best player in the world, that was three years ago. Has he been in the EPL team of the year for the last 5 years running? Ever been voted the Champions League MVP? Perhaps voted Under 23 player of the year in his time? Nope. Please. So Lumpyard had one good season of tapping a ball in from 10m and scoring deflected free kicks or whatever it is he supposedly does on the football field. ANY PERSON WITH A FOOTBALL BRAIN WILL TELL U LAMPARD IS SHITE!!!!! He is not consistent, has no leadership quality, had 30+ shots in the 06 World Cup and didn't score once, and has not laid a hard tackle in his life. Lets put this debate on pause, wait for the season to start..see if he even MAKES the first XI at Chelsea or gets shipped off for $10 to Inter (where he will sit on the bench after 2 games anyway) and watch his England career slide into slush, as Gerrard, Barry and Hargreaves take over

*sigh* Sunil, Lampard was found via cardiovascular testing to be the fittest player in the England squad. Fitter than even your precious Stevie Me. So perhaps the comments about girth are better directed at players to whom it actually applies. Stick your head in the sand all you want, but clearly, scientifically (as opposed to anecdotaly) Lampard has a better "engine" than any other England player, and this is a fact for which there is abundant proof. Mathemetically scores more goals no matter what excuses you have for Stevie Me's shortfall in comparison, and no matter how you crunch the numbers. Lampard is fitter, tackles, runs box to box. Was voted second best player in the World and Europe, next to Ronaldinho by coaches and professional players with far more knowledge and less bias than yourself. Has Stevie Me ever been voted in the top three in the world? Save the "Fat Frank" jibes for the hate-filled West Ham supporters, they do you no credit.

Jim. This was published in October 2006. Clearly in that time our Fat Friend has scored plenty more of these deflected and crap goals and the percentages you so kindly list would have changed. Anyway the main point of the Gerrard vs Lampard debate is not who scores most goals, it is clearly Lampard because he does not have the balls or the engine to run back and lay a tackle, it is who is the more complete, consistent, and class player. Gerrard has all 3 of these C's...Lampard has one 'C' its not on the list and the last letter is 'T' you figure out the rest :D

"many goals are courtesy of..deflected free kicks" Just re-found this interesting link relating to Lampard's ACTUAL deflected goal stats for Chelsea: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2006/oct/18/theknowledge.sport "only six of his 73 goals for Chelsea have been deflected...it would seem that Lampard's deflected glory is not as great as the nation's many Frankophobes would have you believe." Yes, a mere 6.7% are deflections. Even if we were to unfairly subract ALL deflected goals scored by Lampard over this period, (and rather optimistically ignored any deflected goals scored by Gerrard), Lampard would have a tally of 63 goals, and Gerrard only 52 for their respective clubs. Just as icing on the cake for anyone still visiting this blog, here is a dandy Lampard-themed quiz for you to test your knowledge: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/quiz/2008/jul/06/1

Good comments indeed Towser. Sir Stanley Matthews (from the black and white footage I’ve seen) is certainly one of the best English players too, his technical ability was outstanding, and is the type of player England desperately need in a period of time such as this one. Slippery yet again your ability to miss information and your ability to take the points only you require truly astounds me. The article did point out BOTH strengths and weaknesses of both Lampard and Gerrard, and the summation was that Lampard was a thinking man's choice, whilst Gerrard was the passionate fans choice. Should your eyes have the ability to see, and your hand the ability to take the mouse and scroll down the page, you will see that a majority of fans said they would pick Gerrard hands down. The article also says Lampard 'when he is playing well' implying that he does not always play to the same standard as Gerrard, a fact that people who understand and are knowledgable about Football like myself concur with. Anyway our discussion is pointless, for this time next year, Lampard will be a finished force. Deco's arrival at Chelski means that he and Ballack will take the midfield role's (surely you cannot tell me Fat Frank is better than Deco or Ballack?) and young Franky boy will either be off to Inter for a measly £7m (honestly I think Jose has paid more for a pair of shoes then he will for Franky) or sit and rot on the bench where he deserves.

"Some of the kids developed very close Brazilian style control of the tennis ball ,with the tricks you see on the Copacabana. So the finer skills of football as per “Fozzie football”were known in Sheffield at least at an early age. Unfortunately the reality of Senior football outside school was more brutal. Physicality,stamina,athleticism replaced the sublime skills of the schoolyard. So (& this is from factual experience) I knew several quick sublime, skilful with the tennis ball players, quick, but small, who dropped out ,purely because they were physically intimidated by the players practicing the more English “Christian muscalanity” style of football." Towser, a genuinely interesting comment from an English perspective.

Interesting topic why English football doesn't acheive what it should on the World stage. Given that its only major acheivment in the last 50 years is the 1966 World Cup won on home soil ,one could say as this article implies, that England has never produced World class players therefore that is the reason for lack of success . Simplistic but rubbish. Having been brought up in the English system of football it went like this & were going back to the time just after the 2nd World War ,but what happened then exists today. KIcking the ball around as a teenager in the schoolyard in Sheffield we played with a tennis ball(full size football not allowed it would have smashed school windows) some of the kids developed very close Brazilian style control of the tennis ball ,with the tricks you see on the Copacabana. So the finer skills of football as per "Fozzie football"were known in Sheffield at least at an early age. Unfortunately the reality of Senior football outside school was more brutal. Physicality,stamina,athleticism replaced the sublime skills of the schoolyard. So (& this is from factual experience) I knew several quick sublime, skilful with the tennis ball players, quick, but small, who dropped out ,purely because they were physically intimidated by the players practicing the more English "Christian muscalanity" style of football. If they had been Spanish maybe some may have been like the midfield of the present Euro winning team. English teams play the way they do because it is inbred,otherwise they would have learned way back in 1953 after the 6-3 thrashing by Hungary that the way they approached the game was faulty. In other words England invented football but other nations created it. Stanley Matthews played in that match. He was world class . Billy Wright,Stan Mortensen were up there also. But they played the game the English way a mentality as much as playing style thing ,which even today remains. So Terry Beckham Lampard Gerrard etc are destroyed by the "English mentality" not the fact that they are not World class. Even the Germans (who obviously by the major trophies in the cupboard yardstick are way ahead of England in recognising whats required in International football) struggled against Spains superb quick control & passing game despite their renowned mental strength & physical prowess the other day. The ball does the work in football not the man . The man is the creative artist for the football to paint a picture . How beautiful the picture turns out depends on the skill & creativity of the players in a team. The are many examples of the ball doing the work and succeeding against the man doing the work,but the greatest for me was when Maradona gave Jose Burruchaga a brilliant through pass. It was truly brilliant forcing Briegel a German player & Olympic decathlete to sprint from near the touchline to cut off Burruchaga's charge on the German goal. It was breathtaking to see the speed, power & focus of Briegel as he sought to cut of the danger but not as beautiful or creative as Maradonas through ball & Burruchagas perfect excecution of his goal. Alas for the Germans, the football beat the man & always will if the players are skilful enough. England has players who are skilful enough but they are never allowed to express their skills inthe same way as the Spanish do for instance. Until the mentality is changed England will always struggle to win major trophies Internationally.

Sunil Menon, if you didn't want my opinion, it was a bit of a mistake writing a blog, wasn't it? Even if it (and the last one for that matter) is somewhat xenophobic, first against Italian football and then against English. Unlike a previous poster, I don't find your thoughts constructive, you offer no solutions to your supposed national team problems, they are just outright bias. And I have written my own articles, looks like you've jumped to the wrong ignorant conclusions again... You say "Maths is going to prove Lampard better", well glad you finally agree with me. From the article in your own link: "The thinking man’s choice would be Lampard, as he provides a calming influence as well as a lethal cutting edge in any game, and when he is playing well, will boss any midfield in the world." I rest my case.

Oh and added to that, Jose is going to pay a whopping £7m pounds for Frank! £7m!! My godfather, if Gerrard was to be transfer listed, it would be around the £25-30m no doubt! I honestly hope Lampard leaves, fails miserably so the world will finally see what a pathetic player he is without all his Chelski mates around him