Smith versus Waugh: the great debate rages

That was mentioned years ago and was as silly then as it is now. Insulting to Moore, Polatau-Nau, Freir and Hardman. In fact I'm sure it would insult Waugh too, as well as being dangerous.

During last week's OZ/France game, I think one of the commentators mentioned Waugh as hooker. Like chicken soup - couldn't hurt. Jools-USA

It just illustrates the talents of Smith. Sluggy, I'm not a huge fan of Back myself however for a period of years he did revolutionise the art of 7 in Europe.

Roger - item 2 is basically cheating isn't it? Sounds rather like the strategy the Wallabies tried to neutralise Richie McCaw in 2006.

I recall hearing that before England played Wallabies in the early 200s that their strategy was twofold for Smith: 1. whenever Smith was lining up as first tackler off a ruck, tight five would pick and drive ball over him, clear our hard, and then lie on him waiting for backs to run it or Wilko to kick it. This way, Smith couldnt get to the next 2 phases; and 2. In all other facets of play, Richard Hill was insstructed to ignore the ball and hit Smith if he came within 2m of the ball at any time. It worked, and its a good strategy if the other side has a good 7.

Quote: "Waugh is clearly an outstanding player but in the all time stakes Smith is up there with McCaw, Kronfield, Jones, Hill, Back, Erasmus et al." I can understand most of your selections but Neil Back does not rate inclusion in the group. Richard Hill did all the work, and in his absence in 2001 from halfway through the second test, Back was outplayed and the Lions lost their winning edge.

Vickerman is not back yet but is a starter for sure... however he is moving on. Horwill is good; McMeniman has potential if he can avoid injury. Mumm has plenty of potential just needs more experience at test level as he still looks a little sheepish at times. Mumm is no better player than Kimlin. The future Wallabies locks are likely to be in 2009-10 Horwill, Kimlin and Mumm. No Sharpe, no Vickerman. I'm just pushing the Brumbies to illustrate there are more options than the men in light blue. This blog is all about the Waratahs fans, pushing Waugh. He is on his last season as a Wallaby and is over rated...however Waugh is a hard worker with tradesmen like commitment. He can loose focus when the game is getting away which has been seen on numerous occasions with the Waratahs. Brown and Hoiles or Chisholm would do equally as good a job coming of the bench as Waugh if not better... Next years Super 14 the Brumbies will have the dominate Australian pack… So why not get them involved now…

I am glad people have pointed out the game has changed. With the speed and fitness of modern forwrads and awareness of Smith's game he has been largely nullified at intl level. It has been since 2003/4 since Smith has stood out. Waugh is more effective in the game of power and contest at the ruck that opensiders must now battle. As has been pointed out, and I agree with, Waugh is better suited to start with the hard tight work. Later on bring Smith on. If Smith does change his game or starts being a match winner again I would still start Waugh. I would just take him off after 25mins and give Smith 55 mins. Currently I would give Waugh 50 mins and Smith 30. mudskipper all the players you push are Brumbies. Smith, Kimlin, Chisholm. Smith I can see the merit and it is a worthwhile discussion. As for Kimlin and Chisholm most people would rate Vickerman, Horwill, McMeniman (both lock and 6), and Elsom well ahead of them both. I would then rate Kimlin as the next lock. I would have Brown or Hoiles ahead as specialist no 6's. That leaves the reserve bench who covers both lock and blindside flanker, I am undecided between Mumm and Chisholm.

Cutter "Burger does, too a degree, rely on power and energy." Don't you think that MaCaw rely on power and energy? He is one of the most energetic player in the world. He gets involve in every ruckus. MaCaw has really redefined the standard of a modern Breakaway with his style of play. Never have we seen before MaCaw anyone similar. Can you name one? Kronfield was the best before MaCaw, and Smith is as good if not better than Kronfield, but both are nowhere near what MaCaw is capable of. MaCaw reinvented his role. Unlike Smith, MaCaw and Burger tend to step over the tackle area from the top down, while Smith tries to get in from an angle to pinch the ball. Just watch MaCaw and Burger approach a tackle area. They put one foot over the tackle area while Smith hunch over the tackle area. So being taller like MaCaw and Burger has its advantage. Both MaCaw and Burger is more strongly build (perhaps using their strength aggressively) and much much more aggressive and energetic at breakdowns. I suppose this is what I refer to as the new era. "The closest player, back or forward, should be cleaning out and/or securing the ball. The days of backs being able to choose not to get involved are gone." You have taken me out of context. I agree with your above statement 100%, but ideally the forward pack should do the clean out so that the backs can continue with the next phase of attack. No point having the fastest winger at the bottom of the ruck when the attack is breaking out is there? How could Tuqiri be scoring tries when he is constantly doing the clean out.

Now cmon guys, lets not get too defensive about Smith, and also lets not start saying Waught is the bees knees. The game has cnanged to a point where no longer are the tight five big slowish lugs who just follow the ball around. Nowadays these players are fit and fast and take their place in the defensive line with the others. The game is faster and there is less space. Now the premise that Waugh starts and Smith finishes plays to both their strengths. Smith's effectiveness at stealing the ball 4 years ago is now being nullified by faster and fitter opposing tight forwards who ensure that the ball carrier isnt left alone and molested by Smith. Waugh's pilfers are also down, but his tight game and inclination to play closer to the ball rather than being a ball runner is much more suited to the early stages of a game. Gee, if it makes you Smith fans happy, lets play Waugh for the first 35 Minutes and then put Smith on for 45. Does that make you happy? This isnt a Waugh v Smith, Brumbies v Tahs argumenmt. Its a discussion based on the best result for the wallabies. Why not throw Waugh into the early fray as a 'expendable" then bring on Smith when the opposng tight five are a little tired. He would reek havoc and I think it would lengthen his playing career.

Aside from Waugh's recent impact heroics when did he ever dominate a test match? Clive Woodward continuously mentioned how much of a threat Smith was prior to various England v Australia matches, not Waugh. I'm from the northern hemisphere and frankly I think Smith is superb. Waugh is much more one dimensional and if Deans really wants to start playing an open brand of rugby then Smith very much is the man to develop that process. Waugh is clearly an outstanding player but in the all time stakes Smith is up there with McCaw, Kronfield, Jones, Hill, Back, Erasmus et al.

Dexter - McCaw and Burger are two vastly different players. Burger does, too a degree, rely on power and energy. McCaw is all skill and pushing the limits of the law. Whilst Smith and Waugh arent as tall as either of them, they are close in weight. I'm not sure I understand the argument that Smith can be effective at S14 level but be from a previous era at test level. The closest player, back or forward, should be cleaning out and/or securing the ball. The days of backs being able to choose not to get involved are gone.

I would replace Waugh with Hoiles or even Kimlin to strengthen the second row off the bench. Smith can go 80 minutes easily... Who is going to replace Rocky?

As much as I love George Smith for his skills, Waugh should be in at 7 for now. George belongs to the last era of openside breakaway. He fashions himself on Josh Kronfield, but that era is over. In comes MaCaw and Burger types. If Waugh is big and more physical, he would be perfect. But he is our best 7 at the very moment. When will we start to look at matching the raw power and dogged enthusiasm of MaCaw and Burger? Who can we develop? Spiro suggested Hoiles, and in some degree I agree with him, except that Hoiles may need a big dose of aggression (mongrel) to succeed in this position. Richard Brown looked pretty good at the PNC. What is most important now in selecting our pack? Whether each individual of the pack can hunt as a pack. Palu, Elsom, and Smith goes missing or are too quiet in big games sometimes. Too often the ball carrier gets isolated due to the ineffectiveness of the hunting pack. Or the backs having to contribute to clean outs.

Waugh has had the opportunity to stand out against tired opposition in a short amount of time. That was in his favour. If you asked the Wallabies about Smith then I imagine they would sing his praises. Spectators rarely saw what Richard Hill did that was so good and yet basically every player he played with at the top level said he was simply amazing. People forget what a sensational player Smith was when he first appeared on the international scene how much extra work the oppisition had to do to contain him. Waugh was never that good. Smith continued the chapter that Michael Jones left finished upon retirement. Obviously over the years teams cottoned on to Smith and doubled up against him, but he has made the Wallabies consistently. All the coaches can't be wrong. If openside flankers stand out too much then they're not doing their job. Long live King George.

Cutter - I have stated Smith stands out at S14. What I have asked is when has he had a really good intl, and then when against good intl opposition? Smith has been average, and unsighted in the last 2 tests. Waugh in his 2 cameos has had more impact.

Cutter…nice balanced observation. Watch Smith read the play and how often he repossesses the ball when defending the line. Waugh is a part of the defensive wall, Smith makes the influential play. He did it again this past test. I would think Deans after working with Richie McCaw for years knows what makes a world class 7.

Peter K - Smith's offloads, whether out of the tackle or not, are more likely to be to a player in space because he is a ball player and can read the game better. Thanks for pointing out that the pilfers were equal. Things that arent equal (based on S14 stats): Runs: Smith 134, Waugh 74 Tackles: Smith 193, Waugh 173 Offloads: Smith 16, Waugh 7 Oz S14 player of the year: Smith 3, Waugh 0 No wonder Robbie is giving Smith a rest, he must be exhausted.

Matt Burke pushing Waugh for Wallabies captain was just more example of ex-Waratah nepotism. This is Waugh’s last season as a Wallaby, the young new boys in Australia A have more to offer. The Wallabies don’t need a one season Captain when rebuilding… Waugh has been rewarded for the Waratahs season. George Smith will be there again next season and the season after.

who agrees that george smith should have never cut his hair? classic case of samson really isnt it maybe it just doesnt appear he is playing as well because we don't notice the long locks flying around everytime he gets a steal??