The AFL must consider a twilight Grand Final

This is quite a ridiculous and ill considered suggestion. In the Australian Winter the difference to the UK in time is -10 hours. This means a 5pm game in Melbourne would be a 7am game in London. Hardly prime time viewing! On the other hand a 2:30 pm start in Melbourne is a Friday night 10:30pm or 11:30pm start in much of North America. Perhaps the start should be brought a couple hours forward for that market?? Who are we kidding? Leave it as it is. People don't need to watch the games live in the US and UK to appreciate AFL. But if they want to watch a game live at 4:30 am or 10:30 pm, the option is there. If it 'aint broke, don't fix it.

Spot on, Dave. There is no short-term (or even medium-term?) benefit in terms of overseas audience whatsoever. (Same goes for the audience in the southern states, for that matter).

Forgetmenot - sometimes there appears to be a portion of Australian who - if overseas - might choose to denigrate the AFL in the presence of folk from other lands. That would seem odd - - but, as we've seen at times, there is outright hatred in the hearts of some from north of the Murray - specifically. I'd like to think that if any Australian saw a sherrin being kicked around on a park in Copenhagen or Toronto that there might swell a sense of pride or at least a willingness to go over and say "g'day". I've noted before that the odd 'international' blog/comments section is 'hijacked' - - even when Ben Cousins got exposure in the US - there would appear NRL types going on about "Yeah, but Rugby League's a REAL game" etc etc.......let alone the Australians who support soccer who would perhaps be annoyed to describe Aust Footy as Australian Football without insert a 'Rules'.......ah, the confusion that must exist in some places!

Forgetmenot l maintain that to change the TV schedule of the GF for o/s viewership is laughable but to change it to increase Sydenee/Brisbane viewership maybe worthwhile. The AFL need to devot their energies to north of the Murray. As stated earlier AFL has been broadcast o/s for more than 30 years. If it was popular and people in other countries wanted it they would demand it. Truth is they are not bothered and couldn't care. So stick to trying to win the northern markets and if changing the GF start will help do that by all means change the GF time but for o/s viewers it wont matter.

Dave, I stated that we want to take football to people living outside of Australia. Yes expats will watch it, but they will also bring along their friends to showcase the game to them. I know that there is minimal interest of the game outside Australia, but that is because they dont know about it. The twilight GF is an idea to spread the game around the world. A game that the majority of Australians believe is the greatest in the world. Football is continually referred to as the greatest game in the world, just as soccer is called the beautiful game, as RedB stated. Most people i talk to from overseas see the game and say that it is very interesting, and i do not believe they are saying this to be nice, they are genuinely interested in the game. Sadly you seem to feel the need to put the games expansion aspirations down for some reason. Why?

Substitute, agree that Setanta will not really help a game grow - basically the people who subscribe to Setanta are likely to do so because they already are fans. I know in Canada rugby supporters were not happy with the deal they do with Setanta because of this. I sure as hell hope the AFL do not even contemplate having a twilight grand final - one of my main gripes with the ARU is that they have made the Sunday afternoon test match/super 14 match extinct.

Subby, Aussie Rules helped grow ESPN in the US believe it or not in the early days. Overseas TV viewers dont necessarily turn into domestic competitions overnight you have to give people a local context and allow the sport to grow at grass roots. Redb

If the AFL wants to expand its reach TV wise into the U.S., the best thing it could do is get back on late night ESPN2! They certainly aren't converting anyone at the satellite (not available on cable), pay extra channel Setanta Sports (yes, they screw fans on the other side of the world, too!) I was over in the States last year and actually met people who had heard of aussie rules because of late night ESPN2 - same with cricket. But as it stands at the moment, with Setanta holding the rights in numerous countries, a twilight game will have ZERO impact.

nanz, I dont think we can put the boots in the locker and say Aust Footy will never appeal overseas. I think it has barely had a chance given the isolated nature of our country and its small population, especially if you define that further by only including Vic, SA, WA and Tas as 'promoters' of the code and expats to other part so the world. Expats bring the acorn in the shape of red sherrin. On the other hand we have to be realistic about tis potential and remember that different sports our ingrained in other cultures and are never easy to conquer entirely. It is unlikely that Australian footbal will ever be number one in NSW and QLD net alone overseas, but it can find a niche and grow to support the premier comp the AFL. There is an Australian football recruitment academy being setup in Ireland later this year where 100 of Irelands best Gaelic footballers have been invited. That's real. It is only the beginning - I agree forget world domination its not a serious possiblity and it does not have to be, there are plenty of degrees in between. Redb

nanz - the same argument probably runs against Grid Iron to some degree. It takes a degree to understand it, although, again, in Australia for example, if you have soccer, 2 rugby codes and footy - who needs Grid Iron. The main thing is that because Aust Footy is unique (enough, by comparison) - - then it could concievably find a niche overseas - - and may have (i.e. is maybe 20 teams through Denmark, Germany, Sweden and Finland the best that can be achieved?, is a couple of hundred juniors the best that can be achieved?). Is that the extent of the niche? Or, just the beginning? Time will tell. This new internet age allows networking of clubs, teams, leagues like never before - - this seems to have really driven the recent growth, for several reasons. There may well be 2 histories. BI and PI, "Before Internet" and "Post Internet". Who knows. But, when as was recently reported that Helsingborg played Farum in the DAFL in a 100% NON-Australian match (i.e. no expat players, officials or coaches) - - well, that's a sign of something. I don't go wishing that a 2nd professional league effectively in competition WITH the AFL ever spring up any where - - but, I'd love that should a Danish, Swedish, Canadian or whomever be talented enough, that the AFL 'global network' can offer that kid a 'crack' at the 'big time'. But - - again, putting the game on at a time that suits ...... pish posh, can't please everyone!!! Let them watch if they want to, but, it's a game FOR the fans (well, at least, the 2 prelim finals ARE).

some excellent commentary here, but i think you've missed the mark. changing the bounce to twilight will not promote the game to a wider international audience to a point making it worthwhile. typically being such an isolated continent, there are many things unique about our beautiful land. one of those things is AFL. so unique, that it just does not appeal further than the "novelty" factor to foreign onlookers. this is fine, because that's one of the reason we love it so much...because it is ours. i highly doubt it will increase in popularity if it hasn't already. already been tried and tested with exhibition matches, cable television programming etc. if we Aussies can't understand it with continually changing rules (after 150 years, you'd think they'd get it right) how do you expect anyone else to, regardless of the time?

Dave - how much are the Poms willing to pay to broadcast the HAL up against the EPL? The lack of payment is hardly a sign of zero interest - - rather that it reflects that the demand is always greatest for the domestic product into the domestic market. Others tend to be 'filler'. Over the last 20 odd years, you really have to go out of your way to access AFL on tele overseas. The vast majority of people may still never had seen a game, and might only stumble across it by accident. So - there's hardly a compelling case for 'rejection'. However - - footy in Spain was instigated by a local who saw one game on tele. At the 2005 International Cup, the Spanish Bulls (basically, the Madrid team) were a delight, as, they were like a team from another planet. It does happen though, and such happenings suggest that MORE such happenings might eventuate should the game get slightly increased coverage. Or - it may not. The recent, mostly last 5-10 years, increase in nations with teams/leagues, and increased proportions of 'natives' vs expat Aussies (effectively, an inverse of the old 80-20 that used to be expats vs natives, but, more often now is 80-20 natives vs expats) - - - there's a few little signs that show that thus far without coverage, without major support, competition, professionalism etc - - that, growth in interest and participation CAN happen. Again - - I don't see the compelling argument of 'rejection'. Remember too, there's 10 times the people to provide ex-pats from the USA compared to Australia. The US has a far, far broader reaching international 'cultural' influence - - such that Grid Iron vs Aust Footy should so, so greatly favour Grid Iron (but, one thing we know is that Grid Iron ISN'T really that distinct compared to the 2 Rugby codes). btw - I am well aware of Grid Iron, Lacrosse and other 'marginal' leagues in Melbourne. I have played cricket with a lad in Sale who went on to represent Australia in baseball. You see - - you don't need a huge network, - - what you do need IS a network. Hopefully for footy - - juniors in the US, Canada, Britain, Denmark etc can gain access to the 'network'. That's all we really hope for. Anyway - -like you, I agree with your last point whole heartedly.

Michael C "on what basis are you measuring the lack of overseas interest? Please show me your proof." That is what l was answering and you havent really given any challenge to the assertion that there is virtually no overseas interest. AFL has been on o/s TV for 30 plus years so where is all the interest from o/s apart from expats and mates? BTW Did you know there is a Gridiron league in Melb? Anyway it is off the topic and l maintain that to change the TV schedule for o/s viewership is laughable but to change it to increase Sydenee/Brisbane viewership maybe worthwhile.

Dave - ah - - that 'potential viewing audience', like when we hear the potential Asian viewing audience for Australia vs Qatar in the Asian Championships.....when only 500 odd bother turning up to the stadium (I wonder if they used the same crowd counting technique as the Rabbitohs at ANZ stadium????). Australia get's lots of cheap international content on here too - - that's part of the soccer matrix, that, local production costs etc vs being just another country to pay a minimal amount for overseas leagues matches that have generated huge profits from their domestic markets. There is no reason that the AFL would expect to generate income via international broadcast rights. THe absence of such is certainly proof of nothing more than that the AFL is NOT a FIFA world cup or an Olympics. I wouldn't expect any real interest overseas other than perhaps in Ireland, where especially certain towns will be following the exploits of a local hero having a crack in Australia....... So what. btw - I don't support the author on the assertion of global viewership playing any part whatsoever in considerations. btw - the author wrote : "Average A-League attendances are proving to be stronger by the year." we need to keep the perspective that the major improvement last year was due to the Wellington Phoenix vs the Previous NZ Knights out of Auckland. That, Perth continues to struggle, Hindmarsh crowds fell, MVFC TD crowd avg dropped by 6K, SFC are still down on their first season average and only a 33K crowd in rnd 21 v MVFC saved their season crowd avg from being down even on V2. Suncorp, a marginal increase. That's the key markets - - ah, but improved showings in Newcastle and Gosford....... (not trying to dispute - - but, everyone now and then we need to recognise what is behind a seemingly 'throw away' line such as that one). cheers

Dave, "BTW Havent heard much gloating over the return to form of the Bombers " Correct, a seamless show of support. Went to the Carlton game - loved it, absolutely loved it. Great win, great game (Paddy Ryder destined to mark of the century! ), thought we were gone with 5 minutes to go. Redb

Michael C LOL l remember Lou Richards on Ch 7 in the 1970s proclaiming that the GF broadcast would be seen by millions of overseas viewers ( I can recall once the number of 100 million mentioned!!). The fact is broadcasts of AFL have been going o/s for 30 years or more. What does the AFLs overseas TV rights return to the AFL in monetary terms? $0! It remains a game that is viewed. at best, as an indigenous Aussie game, and at worst, an oddity, by the vast majority of those who see it. No criticism here but if it were different why aren't countries from o/s craving to get more? Where is the o/s TV deal? The game is dominant in the southern and western states of OZ and will always be so. To change the GF start time for a perceived o/s audience is laughable. Redb As said to Forgetmenot it is an individual choice but...to state the greatest sport in the world l think would need some backup. By the way l dont disagree with greatest sporting country in ther world and largely agree with greatest sportsmen/women (certainly per capita). BTW Havent heard much gloating over the return to form of the Bombers :)

Actually, it's been quite some time since there's been a 2pm bounce for the AFL Grand FInal - - it's more like 2:40pm. Personally, I don't mind the twilight time slot - - but, any player would rather not having to sit around too long during the day. Dave - - on what basis are you measuring the lack of overseas interest? Please show me your proof. Lack of overseas interest implies an actual attempt to expand overseas - does it not. Other than the last couple of years working in South Africa, the AFL has not done anything of note anywhere in the world - - and can actually be accused of ignoring PNG where perhaps they SHOULD have to help nurture the INTEREST that existed and still does. Lack of overseas interest - implies free and easy access to viewing the game live or on tv such that overseas folk have chosen specifically NOT to watch......local club games in Melbourne and Australia........really not sure how you determine that there's every been a 'test' upon which to base your suggestion. And, in the main, over the last 20 odd years - - what were folk to do? Where could they go for a kick? Well - - actually, a few over that time did something about it...... However - I do have proofs of people who have had their interest sparked enough purely via a single viewing on ESPN in the old days for example - who have taken up footy in the US or started a team in Catalonia or Madrid etc - - little examples of this illustrate that some people have been intrigued enough to get our and start a team - - now, not everyone will do that, but, with an ever groing network of Aust Footy clubs and leagues around the world, over the next 20 or so years - - people who have a spark of interest won't have to work nearly so hard to have a go. Perhaps, in 20 years time Dave - you could make that statement.

Dave, Thoughts of world domination aside - I dont this article quite gets the connection right - twilight games ? However, if the following can claim.... Soccer 'the beautiful game' - i dont there is anything beautiful about taking a dive or a nil all draw. Rugby leauge the 'greatest game of all' - which it clearly it is not. Rugby union "the game they play on heaven" - well perhaps when the codes dies in OZ. Then Australian football can lay claim to the "greatest sport, played in the greatest sporting country by the greatest sportsmen" :-) Redb

I totally disagree, why does everyone want to change everything. This is OUR game, we own it, not the world, the only real threat is soccer, however it is played mostly in the AFL off-season and by the time kids have to make a decision on being a profession al in either sport, they have fallen in love with both games. So, AFL won't lose support to other codes. At the end it's your own ability that judges whether you play one sport or another long term, not a twilight grand final. Dont try and change things just for the sake of change. Tradition is important, do you see the European soccer leagues, the NFL, NBA etc etc changing start times for the sake of the rest of the world, NO, we can still market our game natuionall and internationall without compromising our traditions. LEAVE IT ALONE. As for UNION and LEAGUE being a threat, hahahahahaha, give me a break!

Forgetmenot "We have the greatest sport in the world, played in the greatest sporting country, by the greatest sportsmen. Who wouldnt want to watch?" Thats your opinion but judging by the lack of interest overseas your view is not shared by the world. The world doesnt watch and isn't interested. Most of NSW and Queensland aren't even interested 1st and 3rd most populated states in Oz. The only interest is from expats and a few mates. So you suggest changing a tradition for a few expats scattered around the world?