Time for the 'touch judges' to step up

Or a scrum half pushes their opposition scrum half as they go to pick up the ball. Very similar stuff at the breakdown, with players playing the man and not the ball player. Referees seem to just ignore it. You see players running at the ruck jump stright through and just take out a player without even attempting to enter the ruck. Watch Ali Williams and Schalck Burger for this one... every week and they get away with it.

Mac - hahaha, yep I reckon he learnt that one from Gregan. I remember one test where Gregan tackled Marshall while the ball was still in the NZ scrum, Marshall appealed to the ref who just looked at him & ignored him. That was when I realised that Kiwis just had to get used to Gregan getting away with things that other guys would get pinged for, still don't know why but he just could.... OJ - think you're right, the flanker used to be a link player and the second line of defense, now they're all over the place !

Mark Feel free - the sun is over the yard arm - I agree about scrum feeds but why pick on Burgess? What about the annoying habit of J Cowan of pushing his opposite No at feed time.

Mark, I absolutely agree that the game has sped up and since the late 90s flankers have completed changed the way the game is played at the breakdown. I think the IRB needs to look at changing the laws at the breakdown. They need to go further than sanctioning penalties as free kicks and either allow rucking or hands in the ruck.

stillmissit - they can't even get the scrum feed straight, what hope do we have at the breakdown. My favourite at the mo is the scrumfeed not straight (probably because I'm getting ready to dislike Burgess as much as I disliked Gregan in his prime). So feeds not straight, then opponents get pinged for trying to screw/wheel the scrum.....hellooooo.....isn't the scrum supposed to be contestable ?? if the opposite hooker at no time can get his feet to the ball how is that contestable ?? Can't believe I even worry about this.......I think I need a beer......is it beer O'clock yet ?

PeterK dont know about Spreadbury and White but certainly agree that slowing the ball down at the breakdown can be stopped by effective refffing. As this is one of the major impacts of the ELV's you would think the International Ref's would be very tight in this area but they dont seem to be.

I think the best current refs are Chris White and Tony Spreadbury. They control games well, are accurate on infringements and consistent. Teams only have heavy penalty counts if they keep infringing, it is up to them to change their cheating habits that are being picked up. They actually understand the scrums pretty well. I do not think you should penalise every infringement but all the ones that have a material effect. This means all the slowing down of a breakdown can be stopped. I have a good chat about it to captains and players before hand. I say I look at tackler rolling away first, then the ball being released by the ball carrier. They never believe me, first few rucks I invariably penalise the defenders for lying over the ruck and not rolling away. They get the message pretty quick. The grey area is the clearing out, when have they sealed, what angle do they enter etc. One trick I have learnt is that I say to the defending team is to contest the ruck. If you do not then don't expect penalties for attackers sealing, leaving their feet etc.

Currentref and PeterK As we are all ref's (albeit my days are just about done) the differnt opinions we are esposing reflects what must be going on in international as well. The Peter K idea of enforce the laws early to get them in line was talked about and supposed to be implemented 2-3 years ago but I haven't seen much of it apart from I remember Stu Dickenson using it a couple of seasons ago - I wonder why it wasnt used more? CRef's idea about giving the power to the ref and the TMO's to adjudicate won't fly as the public won't accept a 'tried hard deserved a try' decision. The problem is that rugby officials want the game to be a better specatacle for the public and they see the responsibiliy for this falls on the ref threfore the crooked feed is OK in the scrum and if it's a bit forward then let it go. Let's face it as a ref you can stop the game just about anytime you like there is always something going on and some of our Nth Hemi brothers did exactly that for years. It really comes down to how you read a game and maybe we dont have ref's at the moment who can read a game and have the balls to let it flow when it needs to, and slow it down when it's getting out of control. I always enjoy my game if the players have enjoyed their game and I have been as transparent as possible without letting go of the whistle. The only ref at the moment who I think can read a game and 'live' inside the game is Lyndon Bray the others seem technically excellent at question time but dont exhibit the same control and understanding on the pitch. Being an International ref ain't easy but as paid servants we expect a professional performance them. We are not getting too many of those. I will state again my belief that Craig Joubert will be one of the all time great refs in a few years.

Currentref - either way, throw in the 10 mins for the professional foul & it'll normally cost more than 3 or 7 at this level.

No need for 'certainty' for a penalty try. 'Probably' is good enough. But of course referees are hesitant to use it, not least because its a 7 pointer (effectively) rather than 5.

John B- As regards the draw, it's a complicated beast. It's swings and roundabouts and will even itself out over time.

Mac - correct - "the Sivi incident you mention if seen in isolation could be ruled a penatly try but when the big picture is seen it would probably rate only a penalty as LT had the ball covered ant there was no “certanty”.": correct, hence the need for the TMO to conside 'whole movement' as this in RL covers not just the player who made teh try, but whether defenders were impeded, etc.

Mark, don't know that it's a conspiracy, but I too had noticed that SA and Aust each get 2 blocks of 3 successive games, while the AB's don't have more than 2 in succession. Hard to see how that's equitable, or to understand why SA and Aust would agree to it.

Mark I am all for the technology in adjudication but there are some drawbacks - the Sivi incident you mention if seen in isolation could be ruled a penatly try but when the big picture is seen it would probably rate only a penalty as LT had the ball covered ant there was no "certanty". As I said previoulsy - the subjective interpretation by the refs, particularly at the breakdown, is the issue. If any ref became pedantic rugby would be reduced to a series of 1 phase plays.

CurrentRef - I applaud your honesty if not your lack of bias %-). A common thread seems to be the use of the A-Ref's, I agree with this approach but a similar problem remains in that they're often either too far away, or running full tilt to catch up with the action. I don't believe the refs have got worse, just the game has got faster & they don't seem to like to guess as much as they used to. A number of the issues are avoidable if the A-refs are assigned specific roles i.e. watching for gap closing in lineouts & offside at scrums/breakdowns. I do prefer the league approach to trys which tends to look at the whole movement rather than just the grounding. Also, what's with refs not being able to change their mind as long as play hasn't been restarted. The Sivi tackle was seen by the ref on the big screen, he then could've asked the TMO for an opinion on whether it was a penalty, penalty try, yellow card, etc. It wouldn't have helped with the Williams jump through the lineout, but then the A-ref should've picked that up. I sometimes wonder if the ref is judging on the throw in lineouts, what is the A-ref doing other than holding a flag ? Only one more weekend now before the fun starts again with SA at home for 3 games. Has anybody noticed that SA played 3 weeks in a row, Aus then played 3 weeks in a row, now SA plays 3 weeks in a row again ? It's a conspiracy I tell you.....

Stillmissit - I don't agree that about the not sharing it around, George doesn't make all the tackles, he's the arriving player, so its the tackler that doesn't release the tackled player, doesn't roll away, plays the ball while on the ground, and can infringe in any number of ways, so strategic sharing of the 'slow the ball down' effort is not that fanciful if it is the tacklers job each time. I wouldn't agree with the TMO only having 60 seconds - the eyes of the world are already boring in on him, add a ticking clock to the pressure, and you are far more likely to get incorrect decisions. Couldn't agree more on giving Topo a job, whether he can actually determine the infringements in the current laws, or whether he works with the current players to modify the scrum laws as well for the ELV's would be my suggestions. I'm inclined to agree with Peter K, when the ref act's like a (I was going to use a word that had the potential to cause offense, I guess I'll go for ' very strict whistle blower') in the first 10 minutes you always get at least one team to comply, so you either have a good game, or one team that refuses to (or doesn't have the skill level to) comply, in which case, they get hammered. So though I'm not an international ref, I don't see why they aren't a little stricter from the word go. Except for the fact they are trying to keep their total infringements down to impress their assessor, which comes back to my point from ages ago. (This has to be one of the longest threads on the site doesn't it?...)

OJ - I actually think a ref could whistle every infringement. As long as he says that clearly to the team AND follows through with it AND says repeated infringements WILL be a yellow card. So for the first 10 mins its a penalty fest, thats no issue the captains realise the ref is serious. If they continue a yellow card. A yellow card in the 1st 20 mins has far less impact than in the last 20. This method actually reduces infringements and penalties.

stillmissit, I think non-contact sports are by far the most difficult to officiate. Of all the sports I follow, the NBA is the most difficult to ref and consequently has the worst officiating. It's gotten to the point where people think the playoffs are rigged. I don't think rugby is too bad by comparison. The "Black Arts" have always been part of the New Zealand rugby psyche. We've never been apologetic about it. I was reading the other day about Haden giving his jersey to Dave Brockhoff in 1979 and saying: "I've never seen an Australian team take ball off the All Blacks like that." It's 1-1 in the Bledisloe. In Brisbane the 80 minutes start again. There's nothing to suggest the Wallabies can't win. I'll be on the edge of my seat again and more than likely the ref will play a part in that!

OJ - I agree and thanks for the reality check. Beating McCaw to the ball seems to be a hill too far away for us at the moment. I hated the 'McCaws a cheat card' I thought that was piss weak. I do believe that reffing has got worse in the last 10 years.

Currentref We are talking about fulltime paid professionals here arn't we? Can you imagine if all you had to do was to get yourself fit and ready for an hour and a half in the limelight not hold a full time job and deal with all the issues of kids, wife etc before trying to get to the game on time on Saturday. Let me go through my reply: 2) 3rd offence by the same player. I dont accept your argument about the team deciding they will share the penalties out front rowers, second row won't be there before the backrow. Are you suggesting the back row hang around waiting for a prop to take the penalty? - Wont happen. It is the backrow who work this game and take the chances. I am refering to professional fouls - Now before you say they are an immediate penalty and should be a yellow card, that is not what happens in fact. G.Smith can prove that from his efforts in our 22 last week. 3 offences(professional fouls) by the same player in the 22 yellow card. Not hard to keep a check by refs do that now so it isnt asking too much. 4) I would rather stick with the refs decision but the world has moved on and we would see endless repeats of the dropped ball over the line and the ref in the firing line. There have been enough errors in this area and the TMO should be given 1 min to review it. If there is a problem ie TMO not sure after 1min scrum 5m advantage to attacking team. 5) Agree scrums are tricky and the only reason I want to improve it is it's bloody boring watching all these resets. It never used to happen and I think there is no reason for it today. Penalty (Full arm as you know) for any of the front row collapsing, boring in, etc etc if a TMO cant do it and lets face it they dont have much to do. Give Topo a job and let him do it. We cant just accept the status quo because it is difficult and you may disagree but it aint working at S14 and international level. We pay to see the game not a guy with a whistle as the centre of attention. I also accept what you say about the NRL & AFL but when I rarely watch their stuff the commentators dont spend a significant amount of time saying 'that was forward' 'they were offside' 'that wasnt a try' 'why do we have to reset a scrum 5 times to get it right'