Restructure the Premier Club Competition

Scrum Importance ........as always a moderating influence however my extreme is to match the Poidavan's of this world and their propaganda.

Westy, a litte dramatic I think. In the final series coming up, all but two clubs are represented. Over the last 15 years, every club has had its ups and downs. Uni were not a powerhouse in the late 90s, Gordon were, then Gordon dropped to the bottom for a number of years and now they are back up the top. Norths during the late 90's and early 00's were one of the most successful clubs through all grades and colts, west have been powerhouse colts contenders, as have Manly at differant stages and Souths currently sit 2nd in 1st colts. Parramatta have won 4th grade premierships and been very competetive in lower grades. Manly, Warringah, Eastwood and obviously Randwick have all enjoyed time in the sun. The back end of the season always provieds for some blow out scroes, as the better teams get set for Finals and the weaker struggle with motivation and injuries. What I think NSWRU forget about grade rugby is that the players were start with or end up in the lower grades are the ones who are providing $$$ to the bottom line. They bring mates along to watch and support, they are 1st at the bar, the ones manning the BBQ, selling raffle tickets, less of these people and you need more people who will most likely want money Who wants to play Rugby in an environment where you have 30 guys playing on a Sat afternoon with 14 guys waiting to play as reserves, 2 physios, three managers and 20 people on the sidelines. The more teams you take away the more people will end up going to play and support both financially and in a volunteering capacity. There is a still a very small proportion of players who get paid enough through Rugby to allow NSWRU to destroy the fabric the game was built on. 95% of guys still just want to play with mates, if you can play on a good ground and have good facilities all the better, but mates is the 1st reason.

Kappy............do not mean to appear as wingeing but having witnessed some first grade and first grade Colt games recently there is not a whole lot of development going on.......not much good takes place 79 to nil or 102 to nil. As you are aware some clubs offer contracts or match payments other clubs cannot compete with.What I am concerned about is the need to target some of our best development coaches to the areas of greatest need. I in no way wish to disparage anyone but on the peninsular/ West and south it is difficult to attract quality coaches for Colts. At this age my experience is the players will follow Clubs with good development coaches .. There is a need for intervention at this level. It may be necessary for NSWRU /ARU over time to subsidise or encourage well qualified coaches to assist weaker colts areas of Sydney. It is then up to the senior clubs to develop a culture of retention..........but a circuitbreaker is definitely needed. Yikes.............I posted before I heard of the successful vote on the new points indexing system. Whether it is the solution or not it provides some evidence NSWRU realises it must improve the competitive consistency of Shute Shield. I suspect that the points system in the medium term and the move to three grades and only two colts sides will assist in a more rational competition and unnecessary stockpiling of players. I suspect however there is a need to merge some sides. Sadly Penrith and Norths are in deep trouble.I need a flagbearer in the West that may have to play out of Parramatta and Penrith at a senior level but definitely run two elite Colt teams Parramatta and Penrith. Do not tell me it is because of league because that is a failure to understand rugby in the West. We won competitions or qualified for semi finals at the same time when Parramatta EEls won competitions. Its demise was due to club matters and our loss of critical presence in older Western Sydney State High Schools.It was the Catholic High Schools in Western Sydney that were the stronghold of league. rugby was in the older state schools in the west. Contrary to general myth older state high schools in Western Sydney in the 50's/60's/70's ran a first 15 . Regrettably we lost this foothold primarily due to a generational change in teachers which we never addressed and centred to much attention on private school competitions.... during this period you did not want to play the Housing Commission boys fron Dundas Valley ............rugby boys ....just ask Ray Price and his brothers. As you may be aware I have been very impressed with League 's Toyota Cup U/20 competition.....Money yes but ....maybe elite Colts competition subsidised not only by NSWRU but BRUMBIES and ARU directly permitting Perth based or contracted juniors to play in an East based competition( to reduce costs) including a NSW country side and what a great way to introduce Melbourne based team at a developmental level.. We must improve the overall quality of our premier club competition in the medium term . I am not being dramatic. If we do not than we should get used to buying good league players and stop criticising because we are not producing enough of our own. We do have some good juniors coming through but the level of competitive consistecy they face is not good.Worse still we may have to import players on a wholescale level . Those French rugby clubs are not just a threat to league they could strangle us domestically

skull - The premiership has 4-5 grades. Ground availablility, staff availability etc for the games is one reason. Also reserves from the lower grade. Players who have stood out in a lower grade are often asked to stay back for the next grade , given 20 mins to see how they go. No shows, last minute injuries etc. If only 1st's played on a Sunday you might as well make the rest of the grades subbies teams, sort of destroys that club bonding etc.

Peter K why do all grades have to move to Sunday? Why bother with most lower grades if teams are getting flogged 70 - nil. If anything this would turn more blokes away from the premier clubs and into the subbies. I underestand subbies is mainly for fun, but if premier club rugby is to be used as a proper springboard to Super 14 then the standards need to rise and standards wont rise if 2 or 3 teams continue to dominate. Any player that is any good is going to go to these 2 or 3 teams where they will only get a couple of tough games a year. This is the reason why Aust. Rugby has depth problems and they have to look at leaguies to fill some gaps.

It's all Sydney, what does the rest of NSW care?

True Tah, I'm not surprised your suggesting he should be ignored except his comments seem from the outside at least to reflect a truism about how rugby is managed in OZ. Redb

Redb, I wouldn't pay too much attention to Greg Martin, his commentary is amateur, and he is a bit too biased towards Queenslanders for my liking...example being on the weekend, when Ashley-Cooper got the ball and Marto screamed at him not to kick it, and he passed it to Peter Hynes, a fellow Queenslander, and Marto started screaming in delight only for Hynes to proceed to kick the ball out on the full outside his 22. I think Im going to have to write a letter to Foxtel about Martin's input into all things rugby, or lack thereof, he loves putting his opinion across in everything, and his interviewing technique is comprising of leading questions which force the interviewee to agree to what Martin says.

True Tah, I actually didn't introduce the comparison in the first place, as you say it is very different. A couple of weeks ago I watched a special on Fox's Inside Rugby concerned with the games future across SANZAR countries. I think it was Greg Martin who said "as long as the Wallabies are winning everything else will look after itself in rugby". Therein lies the problem with rugby in Australia, too much top down thinking. Redb

Peter K, not many Australians period want to play prop, you might get guys running around in the 1 and 3 jerseys, but the mentality seems to be that they are really an oversized fly-half, and scrummaging is optional. Redb, there is grassroots development - there is a side called the Lloyd McDermott Side, which is for young Aboriginal men, and is named after Lloyd McDermott the first Aboriginal Wallaby. However I agree that there needs to be more done to get these guys playing rugby...there needs to be more done in country and regional areas in general, hell we might be able to uncover a couple of decent props in the bush. Comparing NZ and the Maori, with the Aussies and the Aboriginal is not really fair, the two cultures are fundamentally differant, and our histories are very differant, and the way each colony treated its first human inhabitants was the reason the two of them did not unify.

Peter K, Look at grass roots development, look at scholarships for young aboriginal players, get some programs going. Re New Zealand - IMO one of the most unifying symbols in world sport is the All Blacks performing the Maori haka whether they are black or white. Segregation of aborignal teams just makes them look different. We are light years behind the Kiwis and how they embrace the Maori. No comparison. Establish unity first then honour them with symbolic rep teams. Redb

True Tah - now now, see I said non aboriginals would have to be let in :) Blake is in France now. Not many aboriginals play prop. Dwaye Edwards? The whole point is to get more of them affiliated and playing rugby.

Peter K, last time I saw Rodney Blake, he didn't look too fit and that was playing for West Harbour...and BTW he's Tongan, not Aboriginal.

Redb - So you are advocating no change. Aboriginals are woefully underrepresented in rugby. If we do nothing then that situations stays the same. I do understand the risks etc, but look at NZ the Maoris are an integral and respected part, why can't we see if it would work. Look at the Ella brothers, Andrew Walker, Kirtley Beale etc we have very few represented but they are electric and exciting. Imagine a team of them with forwards like Rodney Blake, Jim Williams added in. These players would have to earn their spot in a State or National side. Of course due to discrimination laws non aborigines would have to be allowed in these teams just like people who don't go to Sydney Uni are allowed in, and non catholics into Brothers.

Peter K, I think an all aboriginal team is the wrong way to go. One of the great apsects of AFL and NRL teams is that aboriginals play side by side with all other players they are no different to anyone else and must earn their spot in the team like everyone else. A secondary concern would be the potential for racism and further polarisation, our collective maturity as a country is just not there yet. Redb

skull - its not like league where ther is only a 1st grade. The premiership clubs have 4-5 grades. They would all have to move to Sunday. 2nd grade down are not semi-pro, they couldn't take a day off.

Fair enough then Peter K I understand the reasoning, but arent most of the first grades semi-pro? Besides with the heaveyweight corporate support Rugby gets having Monday's off shouldnt be too much of a problems. Besides, the subbies players can still play Saturdays AND get pissed then go to watch premier clubs play the next day and get pissed again. Its a win win for everybody

skull - then the players can't get pissed afterwards with work the next day. Also an extra day for body to recover before work.

I know its somewhat traditional to play club Rugby on a Sat arvo but unfortunately so do all other levels of Rugby. It is after all a game for the participants, but to get better quality maybe its best to think about playing club rugby on a Sunday. After all not much league is played then anymore and there may be the opportunity to attract more spectators which would possibly lead to more interest which in turn leads to more players. I really think that having 4 or 5 grades and 3 colts teams is a little dertimental. I assume they still play all 4-5 grades at the same ground on the same day. If so after about 3 or 4 rounds the grounds become nothing more than patches of dirt so tackling becomes more painful than it should be. Maybe 3 senior grades is enough which could possible see talent spread out a little more and better quality fields might make for better quality games

sheek - I would take it even further in 1 special case. At a national comp stage I have always been an advocate of 1 city 1 team. I still am, with 1 exception. Now it seems that at best a national comp will be thes best of existing clubs playing each other, that is if we get even that. Aboriginals are truly welcomed in AFL and that is the footy code they are most represented in Australia. NRL used to have quite a few , far less now though. I would welcome having an Aboriginal team in every premier club rugby comp in Australia. Then if we had a national club comp they could select a representative Aboriginal team from those teams, basically an Australian Aboriginal team. We would create an avenue for the disenfranchised people, ones that do not associate with a city / district / suburbia geography but a people and a culture of their own. This IMO would be a great step forward.