Sydney club rugby should be tribal, entertaining and amateur

LeftArmSpinner you're a romantic & there's nothing wrong with that but mainstream healthy Aust rugby needs money & plenty of it. What was the crowd at yesterday's Shute Shield grand final ( Easts weren't there so I didn't watch .... & what was it doing being played at Concord )? Volunteers are to be admired but to seriously compete in the 21st century professionals & professionalism are essential.

joe Fc, it is amatuer because the players and participants are not paid. they do it for the love and enjoyment of the experience, like most people do in most sports.

LeftArmSpinner the scenario you have described is anything but amateur.

Joe FC, amateur rugby does not mean low quality, in execution, entertainment or as a competition to blood youngsters. Your S14 feeder point: The academies of each S14 team provide the semi professional level between club and S14, in the form of some cash in return for extra skills, strength and fitness development. The young players progressively join the S14 squad for training, as a bench player and then to the run on team and on to the Wallabies. Added to this, they will play in the U19, 20 and 21 RWC's to gain international exposure. Many a young player has learnt much at the hand of a craggy old teammate or opponent. Your Marquee player point: I am talking of young players from other countries that can qualify for the S14 and Wallabies by 3 years residency. Don't underestimate the number of fringe players around the world who have not made the elite programme in their own country. Argentinian and SA Props, SA and English Locks, Pacific Islander back rowers. etc. On offer is an opportunity and a great lifestyle in the meantime. It is already well documented that the Toyota Cup, because it is an age based competition, it produces too many players to be absorbed by the NRL and so they have no path to rep footy. SCR provides the pathway to S14 and Wallabies, and without any age restrictions. Most of these kids have played rugby Union and League through their careers. The SCR trains in the evening twice a week and play on Saturdays. This suits all players such as students, tradesmen, professionals and anyone else. This has been the case for decades. The doors are open and the arrangements are such that they actively accommodate those people with a day job!!!! That is the whole point. Finally, I have no intention of repeating mistakes of the past. They include the Union/league split, the ARC, the age barriers of League, lopsided competitions, numerous NRL mistakes, (unsuitable stadia, unsustainable revenue and cost base, Loss of Tribalism, poor player behaviour, etc). It is also important to use the successful strategies such as: Repositioning a Comp (EPL), Tendering (A League), Amateur rugby can be exciting for everyone (School rugby), Tribalism (SCR), local roots (SCR) This is more about returning to the roots of SCR and acknowledging that such footy can be very entertaining to the spectators and beneficial to the players and rugby as a code.

LeftArmSpinner much of what you say is not unreasonable & certainly some of your ideas are worthy of further consideration. But your emphasis on amateurism concerns me. How reasonable is it to expect a fully amateur competition to provide feeder clubs to a fully professional competition? How reasonable is it to expect amateur clubs to attract foreign marquee players? How reasonable is it to expect rugby league Toyota Cup players to seriously think of switching to Sydney club rugby if there is no money in it for them? Only a limited number of individuals from certain professions can afford to participate fully at the highest levels of amateur sport. This is fine if they are the only people you want playing your game. Amateurism is no panacea. Don't repeat the mistakes of 1895.

mud, the game wil be a cracker. As a rusted on wicks supporter, I suspect Gordon will be just too good. Me thinks that Randwick's S14 stars have disrupted the team cohesion, something that is so important for their style of play. Maybe they will have now had enough time to gel. here's hoping. The National comp is not financially viable, yet and it gets away from the amateur roots. in time, a long time away, a national comp could be arranged on the same basis as the repositioned SCR. Current clubs would bid for a series of positions in a national comp. Dont make the ARC mistake of starting from scratch. A national comp is a very expensive exercise, travel and accom, a larger catchment area to market to, etc. No local club has the resources to meet this challenge.

Left... I'm going to go up and catch the Gordon vs. Randwick match this afternoon at Pitt Water Park; a wet greasy semi final should be good...need to see an Australian side win after last night…haha...with no Kaplan... I agree what you say about Sydney club comp but if a national comp gets up the Super 14 and Australia A players will likely play in that comp leaving Sydney with less quality players. It may only give others more opportunity...

Gavin, who said anything about transferring anyone from anywhere?? not me, I believe. BTW, Not sure that HH thinks it is a Gordon village club. my son plays there and has no idea, connection or loyalty to Gordon, or any SCR club. I dont understand the shortage of positions part....pray tell.... As regards etc, not my words but i think you may be a tad sensitive. the whole concept is inclusive, not exclusive. The more involved, the better for everyone. More teams, more comps, more games, more players, more specators, etc.....

I don't think people in certain parts of the lower north shore would appreciate being transferred from Gordon to Northern Suburbs. Hunter's Hill, Chatswood, lane Cove Roseville would appreciate being moved. They are Gordon village clubs So there is a shortage of positions 1&3 ? does etc mean CHS ? CHS forgotten again. Schools like Matraville high and their great nursery of players. You still would have to remove the grip of the GPS old boys network to see the best players made it to State and national level

chris, i agree, keep the tradition, but not because it is old, but because it is good!! AND lets move forward.

Syd uni won comfortably against Easts. Wicks will beat Gordon tomorrow, 'cause they always do.

It amazes me that Rugbyheaven has absolutely no scores or report on today's semi finals. One would think that a website entitled 'Rugbyheaven' might do so. Anyone have a report on today's matches? :(

Just have the Sydney comp and Brisbane comp to have a play off system for the all australian Rugby grand final. Pushing the clubhouses and clubs as a business ala South Sydney League.Iam sure a number of Leaguies/u20's can try and push for S14/international's if they prove themselves in the Sydney comp and with that the standards will go up and hopefully the crowds.I remember Matt Rogers playing in front of 5000 fans who where enjoying the sunshine,beers and hot dogs. Lets keep tradition but let it move forward.

Mudskipper, a national comp is only justified when there really is depth in each of those locations. first step is to build the depth locally and then, and only then, launch a national comp. The ARC disregarded the triabalism and the strengths that make Club rugby so good. Yes, it succeeded in "discovering" new players, but at a huge financial cost when those same players could have been uncovered by leveling the playing field in club rugby. Burgess wasnt picked for Fleet and ended up at Rebels!! The ARC also showed that Brisbane rugby is weak by comparison to Sydney. The A League succeeded because they have critical mass in each of their locations. I strongly agree that you need to lose sight of land to discover new things and now is the time.

Sheek, thanks for your contribution. Point taken on the number of teams. Depth and location are just two of the selection criteria, all of which need to be considered. Others include financials, crowds, juniors, facilities, community and local support, history etc. If nothing changed, then you would need to standardise the number of teams across Grade and Subbies. But if player numbers are growing or can be grown, then it is not such an issue. Because the competitions are predicated on being amateur, the more players and teams the better. Eventually, these players retire and convert into spectators, produce kids who play within SCR competions and so the cycle continues and grows due to mutual opportunity and benefit.

Yes Leftie, Understand you were only looking at Sydney club rugby..........couldn't help myself though! I think your suggestion of 5 senior grades & 2 colts grades is tough. Subbies (1st & 2nd div require 4 grades). If you want promotion & relegation to work, you would have to streamline the number of teams required per club - only 3 to 4. Most clubs can accomodate 4 teams. However, not all teams can accomodate 7 or more teams. Indeed, most can't. Alternately, if you pick stand alone district premier rugby clubs, well, you could have 5 seniors, 3 colts, 1-2 golden oldies & maybe 2 womens! This way, all roads lead to Rome, or all juniors & subbies lead to the 12 district tribes of Sydney!! 12 geographical districts - where would they be? Here's my suggestion - Campbelltown, Eastern Suburbs, Eastwood, Gordon, Manly, North Shore (Suburbs), Parramatta, Penrith, Randwick, Southern Districts, Warringah, West Harbour. Inner east - Easts (south harbour) South-east beaches - Randwick (south harbour) Southern shire - Souths (south harbour) South-west - Campbelltown (south harbour) Greater west - Parramatta (south harbour) Inner west - Wests (south harbour) Lower north shore - Norths (north harbour) Lower northern beaches - Manly (north harbour) Upper northern beaches - Warringah (north harbour) Upper north shore - Gordon (north harbour) Central north shore - Eastwood (north harbour) North-west - Penrith (north harbour) Sydney University would go to Subbies.

Mud and Sheek, I was considering Sydney Club Rugby (SCR) only. The so called third tier comes indirectly (but at no cost) by the strengthening of SCR. Every SCR game will be a tough contest and future S14 players will signed and developed thro the academy squads but still playing SCR each week while being paid to do extra skills and strengthening work and then blooded onto the S14 bench and eventually into the run on team. They learn more in an SCR season against experienced players (and former S14 players) and then internationally in Australian U19 etc than playing against other youngsters in other academy sides. Remember that Syd Uni put 40 players into the ARC, Randwick a smaller but still large number. (Danny Kroll excelled in ARC but is in Wicks 2nd grade this year). I propose that those players will be freed up to move to other clubs such as Penrith and Southern Dist. The Schools programmes are a mess but can be built around a strong SCR so that theschools' heritage and crowds are retained while adding the higher, tougher levels of a broader based Schools comp. There is also a great opportunity to break down the cultural and societal barriers by connecting the competitions.

Leftie, Great article. In my rugby serendipity I have a top-down pyramid as follows. At the apex, into which all else feeds, is the Wallabies - the ultimate quest, the final destination of the journey. This level is obviously fully professional. Below the Wallabies are the S14 teams. This level is also fully professional. The next level is fluid. I am still a siren call for a national domestic comp, either provincial (first choice) or national club. This level would be semi-professional. Here you would also have the 7s team & national age teams. This level is also semi-professional. Below this is the premier rugby district comp. In my ideal world, each capital city's premier rugby clubs would feed into their province/S14 teams. In other words, underpinning the upper echelons. This level should remain amateur. Below this again are the suburban leagues & regional (country) comps. Again amateur. Now we come to junior rugby. Schoolboy (secondary) split into metropolitan & country zones, not collectives (GPS, CAS, ISA, etc). Also, consider districts selections tied into premier rugby. Primary schoolboys split into districts tied in with premier rugby. Naturally junior rugby is all amateur. At the semi-professional level & above, I would use/consider controls such as marquee players, draft sytem, salary cap restrictions, non-Australian players, etc. There's nothing new here. It's tried & tested in NZ rugby, SA rugby, Australian cricket, to name just 3 very successful sports organisations from 3 different countries. I'm constantly being told Australian rugby can't do this, & it can't do that. Which explains why we still sit in 4th place among the football codes in Australia, on a range of critieria, especially playing numbers. As I read many years ago, "you won't discover new oceans if you're afraid to lose sight of land".

LeftArmSpinner… There is a lot in what you have you put forward in your article… The established local rugby clubs in Sydney and likewise in Brisbane and Canberra are the heart and strength of the Australian rugby pond and are best to stay mature or have a minimal fixed pay structure. However Australian Rugby is still dire need of a second tier comp and a National Rugby Competition. New Zealand and South Africa are years ahead in developing their next 10 years of Super 14 and future internationals players. We are pulling kids out of Joeys and expecting the undeliverable from them. The ARC model as deemed not finically feasible and promptly (possibly wisely) withdrawn by the ARU executive. My feeling is the ARU must revisit the ARC concept and see what is salvageable. My personal feeling is the Australian Super 14 teams should field a second tier team with a home and away comp starting after the Super 14 comp has finished. Possibly topped up with the best performing local teams. A play off against the top 2 NZ teams good offer a bit more interest. NZ national comp has the opposite problem to Australia, too much rugby and too many teams and they’re cutting teams next year. I understand some will not like this proposal as they like having Wallabies return to their local clubs but a national comp is required for Australian rugby to grow. Tribal passion is important but this can be included in the foundation of a new ARC...or what ever it may be called…

Leftarmspinner could make a strong bid for a position on the board of the NSWRU on this presentation. You would like to think that the NSWRU takes note of these ideasw. Returning the club to club rugby makes great sense to me. In fact, I remember making a similar point to David Moffett when he was CEO of NSWRU. Instead he brought a Canberra side in with his delusions of grandeur and stuffed up the Sydney aspect of the Sydney club competition.