Matt Geyer the stable side of Melbourne

Nah, wouldn't buy them.

Alan, where have you been , we have been getting our rocks off waiting for you to make comment, no its been good and i have a arsenal of places to go in melbourne thanks to the lads on here. Cant remember my 1st comment but i did think i mentioned matt geyer somewhere. It seems a bit sad we wont see these players next year, too many leaving in my books. Will be sitting down around 12 to watch the games, looking forward to the toyota cup as well, (broncos still allive) i see there having trouble selling out the stadium again, would not happen if played in brisbane but you only get 50 thousand there so makes sense to have it in sydney. Thanks for all the info M.C . millster true tah, and redb. Appretiate it. Alan, just wondered if you seen that rugby league team for sale in serbia on e-bay. The bids at 500 u.s dollars so far.

Even if its not about Matt Geyer.

Hey guys That's 58 comments on this post. The most i have had on any of my posts. Here's to the argument reaching a century. Sport can be such a broad topic. Keep going!!!!!

MC - I'm leaving the diving alone for now as I've put it in a separate piece to appear in the next 24hrs on this site. On the contrived, we still have the fundamental difference. To me contrived means "affirmative action" type behaviour which gives lower teams a "leg up" at the expense of the more successful teams. A rule change which applies to all teams is not contrived. Yes it may change the style of the game, the tactics used or even the types of players that are more useful/successful (e.g. Kennedy would have far more value without an offside rule in football) but those changes apply equally and evenly to all teams in a competition. Contrived to me is about manufacturing and manipulating the outcome of the contest within a rule set. Not just changing the overall rules of the game. I could go on about why a Clive Plamer shouldn't be allowed to do exactly what he wants and what his wallet can afford (after all its a free world and the other clubs can respond as they see fit) but you already know my views on that too well...

Oikee - re the Rocks - - just out around Keilor just off the Calder Freeway (you turn off the freeway itself) - - is the Organ Pipes national park -- there's some nice lava columns, and some that you can walk across the top of the hexagonal (?) profiles in the ground etc.....the Tessellated Pavement, the tops of basalt columns. ....it's actually part of the Keilor plains which is part of one of the worlds largest lava flows.

TT et al, the Penguins at Phillip Island were nice enough..........but, what I'd really highly recommend, if you've got a week, is to drive the entire Great Ocean Road, all the way to Portland, check our the PRinces Margaret Rose Caves, work you way into SA, check out Mt.Gambier and the 'Blue lake', and do the SA coast inclusive of Robe, Kingston SE and the Coorong, take a 'punt' across the river at Wellington and work your way via Strathalbyn, Goolwa and around to Victor Harbour - - - and check out the penguins out on Granite Island (take the horse drawn tram if you wish), certainly eat a meal on the balcony over the rocks and water and spot the penguins coming up as the sun goes down. (strangely, google maps doesn't show the land stretching out to Granite Island.) Actually I think the Goolwa/Victor Harbour tourist steam rail just launched a replica or refurbished 'flying Scotsman' or something like that. Anyway, if you get that far, you've got whole Fleurieu peninsula to check out (McLaren Vale, across to Kangaroo Island etc)........absolutely brilliant. But, anyway, for penguins, I reckon Victor Harbour has it all over Phillip Island.

Millster - re 'diving' - - certainly, Sam Mitchell was reported on Saturday for a contact to Gary Abletts shoulder - -it looked worse than it was, Ablett milked the free kick (which he probably deserved) -- but no way should they've been a report.............and thankfully Mitchell wasn't red carded..............and there in lies all the issues around it for which there's rarely an immediate solution................all I can ever say is that in the AFL community (close shop as it is) is that if a player develops a reputation for 'diving', then it ends up counter productive as they are LESS likely to be awarded a free kick. Actually, it's not really an 'emerging problem', there are some quite famous incidents of 'diving' dating back say 40 years ago - - including players on the wrong end being rubbed out for a GF. The flipside is an umpire who thinks someone has made a 'dive' who in fact wasn't........as it can all happen so quickly it can be very, very hard to tell for sure. Too many replays of such incidents and not enough flash backs to the last speccie or beaut goal. [I remember a couple of years back watching the RU match in which Ben Darwin had his career finished, and the commentators start talking around the incident and for about 5-10 mins, they cut to ads and they don't show 20, or 10, or more than about 1 replay of the incident - - - AFL on the other hand!!!!!] Fine line - playing for a 'free kick', accentuating 'contact' to ensure the umpire sees it, simulation, diving.......it's all a bit grey. It's very hard to get an absolute ruling or interpretation.......... Rules - contrivance - - effectively in Aust Footy circles, AND in RU (ELVs) and even RL, there've been recent law amendments or interpretation changes aimed at changing the 'style' of the game play (effectively 'rule makers' trying to contrive style of game in opposition to the coaches who do their utmost to find loopholes that are within the laws if not the spirit). So - perhaps in soccer you don't see this as much - - but, there's contrivance going on all the time from a rules perspective. And given that Off-side wasn't necessarily a part of all the early footballs - - i.e. the Sheffield folk allowed their 'kick thru', in Australia is was a 'goal sneak'......therefore, rulemakers in London when the London and Sheffield rules effectively were merge around 1877/78 had a choice, and they decided to 'balance' the game to the defensive. The off ground aspect you refer to = = salary caps and drafts etc - - ideally they insulate a competition from being 'bought'. Fair enough, if a club performs particularly well, they attract more supporters, generate greater revenue, improve their facilities and coaching, support and infrastructure - - - but, without a salary cap - - a competition is wide open to a Clive Palmer for example to simply buy success - - for,example, a start up club that has zero history, zero merit - - he could just waltz on in and trample over all the other clubs....... ....the HAL is a shining example where even if club generate core revenues alone (rather than largesse of wealthy benefactors) were permitted to go towards players of any expense - - then logic says that CCM, NJs, Townsville when the come in - - logic says they have a limited capacity to generate revenues. For me, I could handle a % of revenue type relaxation...........but.........don't let the Billionaires come in and just destroy the fabric of the league. But again, I recognise the different facets of soccer and the desire to 'compete' externally.

Thats probably a must for any person, the great ocean road, my little brothers girlfriend let me know at least once a month about this, and my mrs is a big Pingu fan so looks like we might have to spend a bit longer down there, cant leave without seeing the penguins, shall do them all, and have to get to the "g", its a must so i can make comment and at least have something to back it up with, not sure about one comment there about sydney though M.C , i travelled down there by car early 70's and it scared the hell outta me back then, i could not turn because the traffic was up my arse and if you tried to turn you would think it was a sin, had queensland number plates on thou. :) Agree with you millster about the salary cap, in one way its good for the game here in oz, because we have no overseas competition it brings the game and players up to a high standard, with soccer i think it could be wise to get rid of this sooner than later, because the clubs are mainly one city one club and the game could afford it, but having said that i still think the game and players get stronger by keeping the comp fair, meaning letting good players move to other teams, M.C would back me on this, it would be murder to have all the good players in one team here in oz. Be like manly back in the 80's, and we all know the damage that has had on them.?

Gems on the gold coast, depends on what you call a gem, dads got a house at cabarita on the water thats what i call a gem, but my surfing days are long gone, as for currumbin thats good, well as good as it gets to me, used to be one of my spots and dont know if you have been up to springbrook in the mountains at the back of where your staying but i have a liking for there, tamborine mountain if you want the Gallaries and cafes. Its just a growing monster the coast and has long lost me , along with the sunshine coast in the days where i was the only guy on the beach with the local shop, its now highrise from pillar to post. So you can see my attraction to north england where you still get the village feel. Thanks for the advise on those sites in melbourne, and will definetly be going to the Royal ex building, have a interest in antiques , mainly pots so will check out the meusem as well. And yes always up to visiting a few dead rello's at the remembrence shrine, and i think my gr grandad is buried down there so will have a look. thanks for that. Have a couple over seas in the graves over there as well, thats another thing i have to do while i am there. The new sanctuary at currumbin is good to take the kids, its been done-up so worth a visit, took my mrs when she first got over here and she liked it, i had a run-in with a roo that day so she was impressed. Its getting very hot up here so you might not get past the water. At least the kids will be back at school up here so you should be alright.

oikee, i can third MC + Millster re: the Great Ocean Road, it is pretty impressive, considering it started as a public works project to keep ex-servicemen busy, we dont have anything to compare in Sydney...if you ever go to Melbourne, also pay a visit to Phillip Island, Im into wildlife and was impressed with the penguins (I understand that most people are not interested, but still I was impressed).

MC - back from lunch and have been thinking about your latest post. I don't believe that contrivance exists within rule-sets. A game is a game, and it is defined by how it is structured and played. In the extreme, of course, all sports is contrived. For sports is symbolic of a purer warrior competition - where a victory in the gladiator ring is symbolised by a victory by goals, points, sets or whatever. So at that most basic level I agree that all sports is contrived symbolism. But in your comparison of one sport against another on these grounds I don't. The offside rule in football, for example, is not more contrived than the goal mouth in AFL being 15 feet wide (a guess) rather than 30 or 50 feet. Yes it limits scoring and makes for a particular tactical style but no its not 'artificial'. Its just that particular game and its particular rules. The competition is on those terms for all teams. Contrived would be if the bottom two clubs of the A-league last year were exempt from the off-side rule whereas others weren't. Or, using an AFL example, if a behind was worth 2 points rather than 1 for the bottom 3 or 4 clubs from last season but not the rest. Thats more aligned with how I see the salary cap and draft operating, and why I object so much. Its like affirmative action - in trying for equality you end up discriminating just as much, its just most people don't notice because you're discriminating against the strongest not the weakest. So contrivance to me is something that upsets the natural result of competition. Something that distorts the natural law that the strong get stronger at the expense of the weak. And ultimately something that brings the game in question down to the level of the lowest, rather than up to the level of the highest (even if a few fall away in the process). Hence my distaste for inter-season levelling devices. That said, while I am philosophically opposed to such devices, of course I TOTALLY understand the need for them in AFL and League. If I was running a code where the domestic comp was the top level in the whole world, and where fan excitement and loyalty had to be assured because they simply had nowhere else in the game to go, of course I would want an even competition with the money, best players, and therefore spoils shared around between seasons. It is good management and essential for a closed code. So don't take my philosophical objection to it overall, and my view that it leads to victories that are a touch hollow, as meaning that I don't understand their use in the context of AFL and League. Hell, at this stage even in the A-Leagues development I begrudgingly acknowledge the need, though hope that over time such aspects are eventually and sensibly eliminated. PS: Oikee - thoroughly agree with MC on the great ocean road being one of the wonders of the world. The Great Western Hotel (sp?) overlooking the point in Lorne is an awe-inspiring place to have a beer. PPS: MC we need to raise the issue of diving / simulation in AFL. Obviously a problem commonly associated with my preferred code of football, although refs are getting harsher and harsher in carding alleged dives. But in recent games of AFL I've seen, there are many instances of players falling easily, or flinging their arms out to exaggerate a contact, and overall I saw more of this behaviour per game in the AFL finals than in the football (both A-League and foreign) over the same period. I realise this is sensitive and I don't want this to be seen as a bag but do you see this as an emerging problem? In my extensive overseas travels one thing people always say about the Aussie sports (AFL and League) is amazement that they are such hard contact games played with no protection - so I see the acceptance of diving as a real potential threat to AFLs image.

oikee - Melbournes not bad......it's like every other city...........pros and cons. Personally I'd hate to be a tourist trying to drive around - as we don't have nearly good enough signage (too often you find out too late to get in the correct lane), and at Flinders ST railways station your next train that you are waiting for can suddenly evaporate or transfigure to another platform - - with out any forewarning......... Growing up in the bush, in my early days, I spent more time visiting my brother in Newcastle than Melbourne. For me, Melbourne represented urban superior attitudes, watering the concrete and green lawns during times of rural drought and cold urban 'canyons', drab grey and in the early days most the traffic still traversed the CBD. It's still just a city, and Sydney looks better. Historically - cool buildings include the Royal Exhibition Buildings (world heritage listed and home of the Aust parliament for first 20 odd years), Old Melb Gaol (and the whole Ned Kelly thing), the free city loop tram is highly recommended and for dinner in the evening I'd recommend the Tramcar restaurant (dine on speically fitted out trams that travel around the network). Also, the Shrine of Remembrance is a fine place to visit. Melbourne was it's own worse enemy for a long time, forgetting that it was a 'water city', and has only in recent times decided to embrace this. Alas, via a whole heap of tall apartment buildings. I still reckon the best part of Melbourne is along the Yarra down around the botanic gardens and looking back towards the city. Albert Park is nice, and a drive around on the majority of the GP circuit is a nice little diversion. (also, don't underestimate the Great Ocean ROad - - if you've never been there, do it, but ALSO get around some of the Volcanic features down that way - - it's a zone of limestone and volcanic features, don't focus only on the limestone!! - - and go past Warrnambool to Tower Hill down near Koroit - - - absolutely beautiful). And if you do wish to go to the footy one day, let Redb and myself know and we'll see what we can arrange. btw - I've got the family up in QLD from Friday arvo to Wed arvo - - MOn and Tues we're staying at Currumbin with a bit of 'free time'..........but, ........I'm not too fussed about theme parks and all that 'packaged' stuff - - have you got any 'hidden gems' recommendations??

My knowleadge of Melbourne is that i had no wish to go there, my wife wants to check it out so origin will give me that reason to visit, along with a history of my gr grandfather owning 15 properties down there in the 40's 50's will also give me further reason to explore while i am there. I dont know where Prahran, Windsor, south Yarra are but have heard of St kilda so will be looking up these areas to see what they are like, he was a sheep farmer from N.S.W. Also have a town in our name in the lake district so might visit there also. I have reseached a little M.C even thou i have not been there. I have my gr grandads "will" with the list on it, 15 properties and he also owned the sun building. So i am not really totally biase. My brother also had a girlfriend that lived in melbourne and he liked the place, he has been to every country in the world almost so hes a good judge.

Its abit like take it up five and kick, if that was what the game was even i would not watch, i think every one understands that the chips thing is just abit of rivalry between codes. If you cant think of anything then mention chips or run it up 5 times and kick the ball for league, well its basically right with a few twists and turns.

Millster : The whole 'as for the game' statement was made specifically as a reflection of an AFL market (first) impression of the game - - the impression gained by people who have more grown up with Aust Footy. NOt saying anything is better or worse. I might not have made that clear - - given that Oikee had come on having a bit of a 'go' at Melbourne when his actual knowledge of Melbourne is severely limited - -I might have over reacted a fraction!! btw - I recognise that all games have limitations, imperfections, and readily have a go at certain annoying aspects of footy - - and soccer (although some soccerheads are certain that the 'global spread' of that game MUST mean that it IS perfect!?!?!?), rugby etc - others of us who are a little more wordly realise that all sports are 'living creatures', the rules of which must and do evolve and there is so often something to be learned from other sports. The Contrived bit - - it's a matter of degrees really - - but, you miss no chances to chuck in a veiled or otherwise attack on what you regard as 'contrived' and 'levelling' as a bad thing. Surely you recognise that off-side is a contrivance of a law? It diminshes the ability for the ball to be contested on its merits, it ensures a defensive superiority -- it is effectively a law of reducing the capacity to score and therefore is a contrivance to keep scores low and as a result - close. Is it a good or bad thing? That's a more subjective discussion. If you can't follow that there's a balance to be attained? Soccer is very heavily weighted to the defense - a balance one way. Aust footy very heavily weighted to the attack - balanced the other way (and too heavily weighted in my mind and many of the recent rule amendments, I quite agree - have served only to reduce the capacity for positional play, for set play strategies and in some respects has - as you put it - made the game more chaotic...............in reality, footy the next level DOWN is probably played more as 'we' would like it than at the AFL level) btw - I do though speak as a 'born defender', and, perhaps, I'd embrace an 'off-side' rule quite happily if it made my job a little easier.

You have not mentioned the gold coast united teams new fortunes yet millster, now thats big news for soccer in this country, imagine if league had a billionaire owner, it would be front page in every city. Good on them, this willmake them a well kniown team and one that will attract good players. And the Titans will get some exposure also out of this, thats a well done outfit on the coast, very well planned and looks to be going ahead leaps and bounds. I might even watch a game or 2 next year.

Millster - re the seagulls - - that was at the time, an 'intent' issue - - the phrase was used by a 'journo' in a demeaning manner. The other codes were referred to respectfully, and then the 'throw away line' of 'seagulls chasing a chip' was used in an entirely disrespectful manner that - coming from Steve Kaless perhaps said more about the mentality of those behind this site than anything else.

Millster, For someone who does not like Aussie Rules you spend an ridiculous amount of your time talking about it. ;-) I would also say that it is easy to bag each of the football codes, there are plenty of holes in each code and much to deride if that is your want. Usually it comes down to the style of play that suits your view of game structure. Redb

Millster if i was 30 years younger i would be there, i have gone past my use by date for getting to excited, yes i can pump my fist and enjoy a good up and down wave of emotion but i dont sing anymore and like to relax with a beer at the footy, i have mentioned before that soccer does not need me, its got all the younger generation to take it to the top, maybe i would go to suncorp for a game as long as i was right at the top out of the way, but i would not get a seat, suncorp will sell out prety quick for this game. About your outburst at m.c you can probably put me on that list also , i am very hard to sell any game to other than league, having past forty and with my wife who keeps me a little level headed these days i have mellowed, and try to think of what i would be like if i was brought up on the other code, and i can see i would be as one eyed as i have been for league. So now i am trying to not " does not always work" be as one eyed on other sports, i just think about all the kids who can make a dollar out of these games and smile.