Talking about props, how about a plan?

prop school sounds a great idea, referees would also i`m sure benefit from it, if invited to attend, they all need to learn more about the mechanics of the scrum, and to recognise what is happening as it happens rather than attempt to work it out afterwards!!

Benjamin, I agree, in fact a lot of crons work has a basis in Pilates, and the scrum machine should account for only about 20% or scrummaging practice... better to to live pack on pack, 1 on 1, 3 on 3 or 4 or 4... with the machine as a minor help. It's amazing how many coaches do teh lot on the machine though. I also feel that getting the front row into judo as soon as possible is a massive help. In the end, informed intelligent coaching is what is needed to bring on commited, determined players, and often the best props don't make the best coaches. We have to try to remove the macho stuff, and get prospects to learn, train and play, smwrt rugby. The toughness will come in its own time.

Bob, I think judo/greek wrestling is a general necessity for the pack. Excellent for body positioning, learning to weight-shift and general ruck practice. I'm very keen on the idea of the front row engaging with yoga also. I have to say (out of the blue I know) that I'm not particularly happy with the excessive use of scrum machines. They are useful for unit work, getting the timing right etc but they don't help young props with their movement. With a scrum machine there is no way to release the build-up of pressure and IMO it allows props to build up bad habits. I'm all for live scrummaging once above a certain age.

westy, it's just an opinion, but I think you have to get them young, as soon as you can identify them byu body shape, and have a look at their prents to try to get an idea of what size they might make as adults, then get them comfortable in the front row. By 14 you should start seeing those who will make the front row their career choice... it wont be certain, and others will come in and others will go out and change shape, but you will get an idea... also you will see how their mentality operates, you need gritty trench warriors, who will grind all day and never get bored... so the field narrows! Then, at 14 or 15, start on the core, on the balance... it's at that age that simply pushing isn't enough, and everything starts to get harder. You have to get them to lvoe the pain and aches and abrasions and take pride in the brutal nature of their position... not to be thugish, but to be tough. If you can get them really going by 14 or 15, so they are real props and really into what they do, you will have the foundation. Now in fairness, I think in every county you will see only four or five real prospects at that age... there wil plenty big enough, plenty strong enough and plenty tough enough... and plenty who will grind all day, but to have all those characteristics come together and also have a kid who will train hard knowing he wont emerge for another 8 years, is a big big ask... that's why the front row men have to be there to keep them focussed... so all those things will come together in a a few boys. So... at ages under 14 get them to love scrummaging and clearing out and being comfortable in those positions and with working in the body positions they need. Teach them the techniques tehy need to be effective and safe, build their self esteem. Then at 15 get them really thinking about core muslces and balance, about specific techniques, really switching on the brain and thinking about what they are doing... brute strength isn't enough to carry them on, so they need to think... break everything down into its individual componants, study Cron, then at subsequent ages, keep the brain and body working... I think most props reach their effective age at around 23, peak around 26 or 28, and are still effective until about 35. Some will peak earlier, but few will be first grade ready until they reach 23... but it's only my opinion. Growing props is a long task, and kind of needs to be done with a very long view. I agree with Benjamin that gym time is important, but I'd also add judo, and wrestling as early as possible. Then as Benjamin says, get them into the top end of the lower divisions and get them bllodied. By 21 they are usually ready for the top of the lower divisions. But along with all that good planning, effort and good faith, you need good luck!

Bob...... in your experience ......what is the best age to identify this core strength.........when should intensive specialist development /training start.....When does a prop reach his peak on average? I undestand your point about culture and science of scrummaging.

Bob, the problem with the A league is that the games are very unevenly distributed, plus not all GP teams are committed. Likewise I'm all for the dual registration scheme but many clubs appear reluctant to let their young players out of their immediate sight. Having said that, Jack Forster did have a good spell at Birmingham, but in contrast to this there are players like Tom Mercey who haven't built on their early promise. I quite like what Wasps did with Tom French by sending him out to Henley and a lower NZ club, thus I think an effective compromise is to allow the players a year in the gym and then setting them into Div. 1. Certainly I think old pros like Leonard, Probyn, Rees and Woodman should be inolved in a mentoring scheme with youth players. Alex Corbisiero looks a very promising young player but the top end of the wedge seems a little thin on quality. I'm certainly unhappy about Jason Hobson being the third choice no.3.

Thank you, BBM. You're welcome, it's a pleasure. Benjamin, I agree that the currrent scrummaging picture is looking a bit light all over, but there are several very very good young props in Div 1 in England, and playing premier A league, who should, luck with injuries permitting, emerge in a year or two, so don't worry too much! There is a problem with the premier league clubs because their young props can lack real "vaild" game time... not yet strong enough to play in the premiership, and not getting enough from the A league, which is somewhat below the 1st div' in quality... they loan them out to lower teams but it's never a pleasant experience for the youngsters because in a team game they feel like they are intruders, and part time members of the club. It's often better for them to be involved in Div 1 clubs, or even div 2 clubs. I think it sounds like Australia has a similar issue,... in the end you have to get the young pretenders on the park with the old dogs and let them learn their trade, but it mustn't be rushed, I have seen really good prospects ruined by being brought on too soon, and if you put a good young'un against a nasty old one too soon, he can be ruined for life... so it needs proper planning, and a good pack to offer him some protection... and first... arm them with cron!

bob, Thank you for some of the most clear, educated and sensible posts I've ever read on this or any forum. You clearly have experience and are not a pretender. So a sincere thanks to you for the insight. BBM

Good tales Bob. I played back row to a reasonably high level a few years ago but have always been fascinated by the front row; Ondarts, Probyn, Leonard, Brown, Dowd, Tournaire etc... great stuff. It's interesting that you mention countries and propping culture. I recall reading an interview with Epi Taione and he said that in Tonga all the young boys wanted to be 'the tough guy props' and yet despite some admirable performances in the GP from Tonga Lea'aetoa, Soane Tonga'uiha and Tevita Taumoepeau, Tonga has never produced a threatening scrum. And yet whilst I think that England and France have propping cultures there seems to have been a slump in the development process. Aside from Flatman, Bell, White, Clarke and perhaps Sheridan, there are no real scrum terrors. Likewise in France. As durable as Jean-Baptiste Poux is he is certainly no Cholley. Even at my local club there are no genuine career props, if you will, more a mix and match policy of big guys and people willing to give it a go. The AB scrum is a great advert for technique but below that level the S14 NZ props are generally pretty poor. I'm rather concerned that is the way English scrummaging is heading too.

Ozxile... From a props point of view, life is scrummage, clear the ruck, lift... everything else is secondary... it's good to be able to run and pass like a centre, but there are 13 others to do that, and only 2 to prop... but I appreciate that in the modern game a whole package is required, just not to the extent that some think, and not if it means sacrificing the essentials. If you look at Julian White of Leicester, he does less around the park than say, Matt Stevens, but in the scrum, and in the general dominance of the oppsosition, white is superior. There are no props I know in the pro game (and I know a few) who fear Stevens, in fact they dont rate him in the scrum, but nobody ever likes to face White... or Duncan Bell etc. As for Os du Randt , he is of course a legend, and like props like Jason Leonard, he does what Cron coaches either naturally or through having worked it out, and being blessed with the kind of body that makes propping a natural thing... he also had presence, the kind that lifts your team and defaltes your opposition. A bit like Tyson punching, it was born in and coached to perfection. Benjamin, I only faced Leonard in training, he was younger than me and soon began to make his way up the ladder... but as a youngster he was very mobile, more like a modern prop, he got heavier and his scrummaging improved as he aged, until he became the master. I would have had him when he was 20, but by 25 he was in another league!!! He was also imoveable, and aggresive, even when young... and hard... he had incredible core strength and balance, and everything just meshed right. He was light for a prop in those days, but so strong. When he bound on, you really really knew you were bound, and had to resort to dark arts to even get close to matching him!!! Of course, as he learned, he also grew until the Leonard that emerged later was unrecognizeable from teh young greenhorn! You can't create a Leonard, or a Du Rant, but with someone like Cron at the helm, you can get good players to the level where they can perform their job at an elite level, and if by chance a coach like Cron gets their hands on the very very few with the potential of Leonard or Du Randt, he would give that player all he needs to become a legend. I've seen top class props walk away from Cron shaking their heads and beaming smiles as everything suddenly makes sense! I agree with what you say on Probyn... but it's hard to get these things going, front rows are not very open to advice, and the lower the level, the more stuck in their ways they are. Approaching them with Crons ideas on core and balance often gets derisoury laughs and snorts... I've tried at my local club in England... they still think the answer is to hit harder, to punch, to be dirty... cron takes it to a science, and thats why the kiwis can scrummage so far above their weight. I also think you need to develop a propping culture, that's why certain countries breed great props, because they know from a young age that they are members of a special club... even sitting only with props at meals and drinks etc. Such a culture breeds respect, and allows them time to grow. Props, more than any other position, need time.

Bob, thanks for the detail. Bearing in mind how poor the NZ scrum was prior to Henry's arrival and the general size of the players (Woodcock, for example is comparatively slim) it is obvious that their attention to detail is superb. It will be interesting to see how Somerville fares. I am English though. My local rugby clubs are Blackheath and Westcombe, sometimes Beckenham. Out of interest, when did you face Leonard? I'd love to see Probyn working with the RFU in a coaching capacity similar to what Cron does, although more with younger players.

Ben, Cron breaks down the whole scrum into individual parts, and each part is analysed and worked through. Right from the tips of your toes to head position, from binding to hit, to drive... when and how to engage the abs and core muslces, shoulder position, foot placement... when you learn by osmosis it makes you tough, and in the UK we place massive repsect on tough front rowers, and it's important to be tough, even horrible and niggly and bloody minded, but when you put that against someone as strong as you and drilled by someone like cron, you realize that with the right technique and training, you can build an imoveable object. Before the kiwis designed the Front Row factories, the prop was the most frequently "seriously" injured player on the park, now in kiwi rugby it's the number 8... it would benefit any coach to get cron's coaching programme and steal all the info! Blades has made a useful coaching dvd too, with the English RFU! But what Cron has done is illustrate that you can create, not just grow great props... there really is too much info he has to give, for me to even touch on it, but suffice to say that all the things I learned from playing, he put into a 10 minute nutshell, then gave 2 more hours of amazing info! I once played with Jason Leonard before he made the big time, and I have 2 nephews playing as young props in Div 1 in England, and Crons info in the right hands, could create more Leonards... I know my nephews lapped it up... some they also knew, some they had been coached, but a lot was new to them and improved them... it wont help the prop around the park, but in the scrum and breakdown I honestly believe he could turn an average good porop, into a very special item. Then, once they have that skill, game time against older props with give them the nasty stuff. If you look at the kiwi scrums, they look very similar in execuation, very similar in set up, even the way they go down is very similar... that's cron!

That's interesting Bob, what did Cron teach you?

In the UK the whole system is based on clubs, clubs before country even, so test rugby may be the pinnacle, but club is the mountain. We also have so many teams on so many levels that young props have quite a good progression route from under 10's when they start to push in the scrum, right to premiership. A young prop of 18 or 19 or 20 cannot hold his own with a half decent prop of 35, but he learns by osmosis, by info trickling down. But.... I learned more from a couple of hours listening to Mike Cron in NZ than I did from 30 years of scrummaging... had I been able to combine the two, it would have been great, but I encountered Cron adfter my playing career ended.The problem with learning by osmosis is you also learn the crap! And there's a lot of it. Cron is a genius. So, you need to identify props early, as aearly as possible, but of course keep the door open for boys who change shape as they grow older. You need a system where the props continue getting valid, and valid is the key, game time as they emerge, because they wont be top flight ready until they are 23 or so... maybe 25... so you need to be patient... you need to let them learn by playing, and underpinning it all, you need a well thought out structure, a coaching plan and coaching schools, run by people like Cron. In the UK, props are the highest paid player... no back ever scored a try where the ball wasn't first won by forwards... and in England, a lot of the really powerful scrummagers learn their trade from SH players and coaches... Blades is man of great knowledge, use him... take the front row factory idea from the kiwis, and above all, let your props grow... it wont help you for 4 or 5 years, but in time you will start to see a regular handful... and put away nationalistic feelings, look everywhere for good coaches and employ them, and yes, if you don't have a club structure to bring your props on, send them to England/France/nz and let them spend a couple of seasons there.... but I'm not sure you really need to do that... I think you have the fixing of the situation in your own hands.

Just throwing it out there.. But does anyone else think that our scrummaging problems lie in the fact that from a junior age up to under 18s scrums are only allowed to be pushed 1 meter then stopped. GPS rugby produces so many talents and is widely regarded as a great standard of rugby. If so. Why are our props at 18 years of age not being allowed to push over 1 meter. Being taught to not push hard in a scrum. Im currently playing under 18's rugby in england, australian born and bred, but from a young age over here props are not capped at how far they can push in a scrum. They are able to push as far as they want. Think maybe ARU needs to come up with a law that maybe at say 15 years of age props can push over the 1 meter mark. To ensure we are producing props who are 100% commited to giving it everything come scrum time Just a thought. Give me your thoughts

Sheek, I disagree with that. Kearns was a powerful scrummager and presence but Daly and McKenzie were never the best in their position... Leonard, Probyn, Cash, Sole, Ondarts, Brown, Loe etc. By Daly and Dwyer's own admission Probyn had the best of Daly comparatively easily. Whilst I admired the 1999 front row, Harry especially I think they were far worse than the 1991 Cup Winners. I specifically recall the Welsh pack pushing them around in the quarters. I don't recall the final but that French front row was devastating, especially Tournaire. I'd like to have a look at that game if possible.

Peter K, Came in late here & needed have worried, you nailed it. Props are like bumper bars. A good bumper bar reflects damage back onto the other object. A poor bumper bar crumples inwards, reverberating damage back throughout the car. We Aussies really are dumb. We won't enjoy consistent success without a powerful scrum. Bejamin, Re our two WC victories. The first in 1991 was achieved with a first rate front row. At one time or another between 1991-94, Kearns, McKenzie & Daly were each the best in their position. In 1999 Foley, Blades & Harry didn't receive the same accolades. Indeed, the likely first choice front row of Kearns, Noriega & Crowley all went lame before the quarters started. But make no mistake - Foley, Blades & Harry were 3 mentally tough individuals, & street-wise.

So you don't think that an on-line petition or something similar would bring a positive spotlight to the lack of props? It would certainly attract the interest of ex-pros.