My knowledgeable SBS colleague, Phillip Micallef, put up an interesting story on the World Game website on Tuesday headed “Kiwis make Hay while the suns shines”, ostensibly an interview with Waitakere United captain Danny Hay ahead of the club’s Club World Cup playoff against Adelaide United in Tokyo next week.
Micallef writes that Waitakere will be “fighting for Oceania’s existence” in the match and that a positive result for the New Zealanders will be “Oceania’s chance of making the most of its rare place in the sun”.
Perhaps. But I would have thought the Kiwis are in something of a catch-22.
A good result against Adelaide will have the obvious benefits of getting the side through to the CWC and collecting some serious money – a massive fillip to a semi-amateur side.
But a win over the Asian Champions League runners-up will also reaffirm the status of Oceania as a confederation at a time when many bods in Kiwi football are assiduously trying to extricate themselves from the OFC’s clutches and join Asia.
Hay, the captain of Waitakere, is one of them.
He told Micallef: “[It’s] important that Oceania is swallowed up by Asia and New Zealand as a nation starts going into Asia on a regular basis. That’s the only way our football will grow.”
That, however, runs counter to the stated strategy of New Zealand Football boss Frank Van Hattum, who told Micallef a week ago that “our future is with Oceania. We are happy there and we do not need to join the AFC to raise our standards.”
Van Hattum seems to be happy with the status quo because as the only nation of serious clout in Oceania – that hiccup against Fiji aside – it gets virtual walk-ups to the CWC and Confederations Cup.
But, as Hay has intimated, that is a short-term panacea at best and holds no long-term benefit for New Zealand and, by extension, Oceania football.
So losing badly to Adelaide United, perversely enough, could be one of the best things to happen to football across the Tasman.
A bad loss would no doubt convince FIFA that Oceania is a folly that can no longer be tolerated and the only viable solution to the farrago is doing what many experts have been advocating for some time: that the Asian Football Confederation consumes the OFC and the AFC is divided into two distinct West Asian and East Asian zones.
New Zealand would find themselves no longer the proverbial “big fish in a very small pond” but the long-term advantages of being in Asia would far outweigh the cons, both for themselves and their Oceania stablemates.
The AFC might also get itself some joy from FIFA in additional World Cup places (or at the very least half places).
So Hay is in a rather extraordinary position.
Charged with the responsibility of winning the game for Waitakere for his superiors at New Zealand Football but privately perhaps hoping he’s on the end of a massive hiding.
Football never ceases to amaze. It’s going to be a very interesting match indeed.
jub jub
Guest
won't a merging of OFC and AFC mean we go back to playing TAHITI and FIJI?
Kazama
Roar Guru
Midfielder I never really followed Dr Who or the Stargate TV series. I like the Stargate movie though. dasilva I think we've spoken enough Trek for now but I see that Nemesis was Baird's third and final film as a director and he has since gone back to editing. I remember reading somewhere that JJ and his crew are doing their homework for the film so hopefully they won't serve up another Nemesis-like mess. Cheers for the link - a good reminder of how insanely stupid the writing in Enterprise was. Here's one you might find amusing... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ClP8n6asn3w
dasilva
Roar Guru
Actually technically the borg is not an artificial intelligence but I think the same technique will work you seek perfection However you assimilating humanity is impairing perfection THerefore you must be destroyed. Repeat until the borg heads start fizzing and explode.
dasilva
Roar Guru
Midfielder looks like The Roar is becoming a sci-fi gathering as well as sport discussion forum. Is there a link between football and science fiction? Also it's a no contest. Most of the enemies you mention are various artificial life forms. Kirk when he speaks with any artificial intelligence. They explode and stop working. Piece of cake. The Borg can not match Kirk's circular logic. Kazama I'm little less forgiving about Enterprise. 3 season is a lot of season to write off and it was mainly responsible for why Star Trek now needs saving by JJ Abrams. If Abrams new prequel doesn't work then you can blame Braga and berman and Enterprise series for killing off the Star Trek franchise. That's how bad it is and that will be it's legacy if Star Trek XI stuffs up. So the last season was better then the first 3 but It's the case of too little and too late (and even then it would have only have been an average season by trek standards) The worst aspect of enterprise was it looks like story lines and character developments were made up on the spot with no connections with past episodes (just like Archer explore with no plan and in an ad hoc manner as well). Contrast the Temporal Cold War and the Dominion War. One was made up on the spot. One was meticulously plan by writers. One was detailled explain, the other we still know very little to nothing about. It was just bad lazy shoddy writing. It also had some of the most cringe worthy sense of humour in the entire series of Trek (night in sick bay shudder). If you really hate enterprise. I think you'll enjoy listening to this review of unexpected http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=F8S0EmwWYsA a funny insulting review of a terrible episode With Nemesis I'm not too sure whether the script writers seen an episode of star trek before but the director definitely did not. Interestingly Paramount thought at the time that Stuart Baird would revitalize the Trek series in the similar way in which Meyers done with Wrath of Khan (hahahaha) because Khan wasn't a star trek fan beforehand and had an outsiders perspective and so was Stuart Baird. Unfortunately they forgot to realize that Meyers ended up watching every episode of TOS to understand what the trek series was all about which helped him direct Star Trek to the best of his ability (as well as pointing out that Khan would make a good villain). Stuart Baird was too unprofessional to do that. Nemesis look like a movie made by someone who new nothing about Star Trek because it was directed by someone who knew nothing about star trek.
Midfielder
Guest
Kazama I would like Obie One to be able to say to Bin Hammen "Make it so " pertaining to the sheep shaggers but even if Obie One called on the force The Borg (AFC) would be trying to use the all there power ....... maybe Dr Who could help but then the Daleks may combine forces with the borg ....... OMG ........ Then O'Neil (guess the show ) may assist the good Dr / Obie One & Kirk then again the Warith (worked out the show yet) may combine with The Borg & the Daleks ....... Obie One / Kirk / O'Neil ...... well well. The ending would be the Tardis would come to aid of every one ...... but between Kirk & the good Dr doing all the talking it would be left to Obie One & O'Neil to clean it all up. The final show if you have not worked it out is Star Gate.
Kazama
Roar Guru
dasilva: "I became a star trek fan after First Contact." That doesn't surprise me given, as I said, that a lot of non-trekkers like the film. My Dad was a trekker so I guess he passed that trait on to me. I can remember him letting me stay up when I was about eight to watch an episode of TNG - it was "Contagion." I still love that episode. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Nemesis script writer(s) had never seen an episode of Trek before judging from they way they butchered all the characters' behavior (esp Picard - he was like a different character compared to the previous three films and seven seasons of TNG!) and the back story. It's just an awful film. I've seen many films worse than that but the fact that it's Trek makes it that much harder to watch. I'm actually embarassed to watch it. Even the actors were embarassed about it apparently. For Enterprise I'm a little more forgiving. I think the first three seasons should be completely forgotten apart from a few episodes (Cogenitor and Regeneration were two decent ones), but once they put Coto in charge and brought in the Reeves-Stevenses you at least had three people running the show who actually cared. It was too late by then though to turn it around. Some decent episodes in that final season, but some shockers as well. These Are The Voyages... was one of the worst episodes of trek ever. JJ and his crew now have to do what Meyer did and save the franchise by making a damn good movie that will blow everyone away. Meyer, by the way, is a freakin' genius - the guy even got Shatner to act properly in Wrath of Khan by making him do huge amounts of takes so he'd wear himself out and give a more natural performance.
dasilva
Guest
Millster I thought that Australia has some special law with New Zealand and not just Free trade agreement. Like freedom of movement between two countries? Or is the law just easier to get work visa from that country. Kazama Agree with all of your points (I became a star trek fan after First Contact) and I agree especially with Nemesis. It was a disaster. For me what ruin it was Picard who willing to risk his career to protect the prime directive in insurrection was willing to break it so blatently in Nemesis when he went on that planet occupied by a pre-warp civilisation to find B4. He made no effort to avoid first contact and then he subsequently had a fire fight with the locals. I think picard should get dismissed from Starfleet with disgrace for that behaviour. Worst of all that fire fight add nothing to the movie and was just a gratuitous action scene with no purpose with the plot. In the end I just pretend that Nemesis and Enterprise series didn't happen and not part of Star Trek canon or lore.
Millster
Guest
Back onto the football parts of this post.... (I was always a Battlestar Gallactica fan as a kid...) On the 'nix. There is only so much comfort we can expect from a normal Free Trade Agreement. And FTA is a much lighter touch than a community of nations with its own governing body like the European Union. And remember we have FTAs or are in the process of developing them with the US, Singapore, Thailand, China, Japan and a range of other countries. Surely one could not argue that once all those FTAs are finalised we can regard players from all those nations as 'home' players in various Australian sporting clubs... Sadly I think unless the AFC change their tune (of their own volition or via major pressure from FIFA) the 'nix are on their death bed. Sad that this coincides with a string of pretty attractive football for them. On the famous alternative structure for the WC qualifiers. MD, Pip, for gods sake one of you write this up properly as a separate thread so we can work on it. It is a major idea an warrants its own discussion - not just to be buried here. Please lets give this some focus and its own place for us to discuss and fine tune it.
Kazama
Roar Guru
"Sacking Berman and Braga is a good start." Agreed. The shows were going nowhere under them. I have a feeling those two were trying to just make whatever crap they could and not care because the trekkers would buy it. Enterprise's failure proved them wrong. Nemesis...God what a disaster that film was. Not only was it poorly made with a shoddy script but they pretty much stuffed up all the lingering Romulan storylines, including Unification. Where the hell was the Tal Shiar in all that? Yeah, the Star Trek equivalent of the Gestapo are just going to sit back and let Picard's clone take over their empire, no worries. Yes, the trailer is controversial, but I like that. Star Trek needs a kick up the arse. It needs another Wrath of Khan, a flim that isn't just a good Trek flick but a good film overall. Obviously I don't want it to be dumbed down (hello Transformers) but if it its a massive shift from what you'd consider kosher for a Trek film then so be it. As long as it's a good film and as long as it doesn't destroy the spirit of the series I'll be happy. First Contact is a good example of how you can have both an explosive and somewhat violent action film but also explore character development as well. Actually, of all the non-trekkers I speak to, a lot of them seem to like First Contact. ------ Well, that fits in with the whole sheilas, wogs and pooftas theory. In my case it was more the wog side of it, everyone called it wogball or said I only liked soccer because of my background, which was funny considering I was bought up an Aussie Rules fan and my Dad played Rugby. Another story: I used to have a mate in high school who was a top soccer player but absolutely hated watching the sport. He got invited over to the UK to play on some schools tour. When they were there they watched four EPL games, including getting to see ManYoo, Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton play. He told me it was the most boring part of the trip!
dasilva
Guest
LOL love your story. I once met a girl who claims that her father refused to let their sons play soccer as he was afraid that they'll turn them in to homosexual (I'm not joking)
dasilva
Guest
Revitalising the series? Sacking Berman and Braga is a good start. They were responsible for Enterprise (and also decreasing standards in the last season of TNG and Voyager) and really a sacking is the minimum for creating such travesty. I'm hoping a new television series could result from this, although a series of movies like what happen in the 70's and 80's isn't a bad alternative. When i was thinking of a new movie I was actually hoping for a TNG movie with Spock and Sela concluding that element from Reunification (Nemesis should have been about that). I'm disapointed that never happen (most likely old spock will be killed off) but I'm optimistic about new movie. THe trailer Let's say I don't judge movie by trailers as if I did I would be very dishearten. It's actually very controversial trailer with a lot of people watching the trailer and then concluding that Star Trek is ruin and dead (although that's bit stupid, it's like those people bagging Daniel Craig and saying he makes a crap James Bond years before Casino Royale was released). People are worried that they will turn Star Trek into a dumb action flick because the trailer has no information on story line and just random footage of action scenes and Kirk and Uhura having sex (WTF). Also JJ Abrams has admitted that he was a bigger Star Wars fan then a Star Trek fans when he was younger and advertise this movie is going to be action pack which only added to those fears. However I realise that they have to win mainstream audience by filling up with action sequence. Also you can easily take footage of Wrath of Khan and First Contact and make it look like a dumb action film but we all know that those movies were much more then that. If those action scenes complement a good story that is intuned with what's star trek is about (exploring issues of humanities) then it could be a great movie. Also JJ Abrams and his script has got a personal approval from Leonard Nimoy. If leonard nimoy is happy with the direction the series is taking then I'm satisfied with JJ Abrams at the helm.
Kazama
Roar Guru
I think you've summed it up quite well. I've never understood why people have to look down on a TV show for trying to be intelligent or promote harmony between people. I agree re: DS9, I felt that it was the least trek-like of all the shows and produced some damn good episodes that had little to do with trek mythology (eg: The Visitor), but as soon as people see Star Trek they turn their noses up. If you say to people you like Star Trek they immediately think you are like the comic book guy from The Simpsons. Maybe the new film will change a bit of that mentality considering they seem to be going for a more accessible action-adventure style with a young cast. I used to get the same sort of responses in high school when I told people my favourite sport was soccer. For example I remember chatting up this girl and sport came up. I told her I followed soccer and she asked me how the hell I could be passionate about the most boring sport in the world. I think she said something like she'd rather poke her eyes out than watch a soccer game. Pretty much killed the conversation.
dasilva
Guest
Star Trek has nerdy no lives connatations (then again I have seen nerdy no-lives Star Wars fan as well.). I think star Wars is a good action adventures that is easily accessible to the general public. While Star Trek is more of an intellectual show, much more concentrating on dialogue (which leads to boring accusations), an almost adversion to action scenes (remember Riker complaining that there is much more to a starfleet captain then being good at combat). I love to show but recognise it's not the most easy going and accessible show there is (although I always thought Deep Space Nine had accessibility potential. It's basically soap opera in space, lot of focus on relationship, has war and actions and also has a sense of humour. It's a shame it wasn't that popular) Yeah I feel like admitting you are Star Trek fan is like coming out of the closet. you get funny looks, confusions, quizzical question on why do you like that show. Oh, I always thought it was boring. sometimes "don't worry we are not going to judge you on your TV taste".
Kazama
Roar Guru
dasilva Yes, I am a trekker, have been pretty much my whole life. It does seem like there aren't any in Adelaide sometimes, but I think people don't exactly advertise it considering that for some reason it isn't considered cool to be a proud Trek fan like it's okay to be a proud Star Wars fan. I'm eagerly anticipating the new film, trailer looks promising, hopefully JJ and his team will breathe new life into the series like Nicholas Meyer did with The Wrath of Khan in 1982. All of the cast have signed on for more films, so if it is a success there's certainly the opportunity for Star Trek to enter another 'golden period.' The issue regarding who is a foreigner here is interesting but admittedly well over my head. I just think that they wouldn't be pushing the idea of making Wellington Phoenix an Aussie club to begin with if they hadn't already considered this, so that is what gives me hope that the Phoenix are here for the long haul and safe from MbH's intentions. There are certainly a lot of grey areas, which again I would think bode well for the Phoenix because the less there is to get through the easier it is to get rid of them.
dasilva
Guest
Jason W Wellington Phoenix is trying to change it's status in becoming an Australian club that is residing in Wellington. A loop hole that's allowing them to stay in the competition past 2011 Bin Hammen is responding that if you are changing your status into becoming an Australian club then therefore you must class New Zealand player as foreign players. Which leads to this situation. Whether can NZ can legally be class as foreign players as it may contravene with free trade agreements with NZ (my knowledge of Australian law is limited so I don't know the details whether this is true or not and hoping someone can answer that question. AFAIK NZ still requires a visa to work in Australia but the conditions to grant a working visa is much less strict and you can stay in Australia permanently if you don't break any laws). Therefore there is a parallel with the EU situation in England. If it's true that it does contravene with free trade agreement then NZ has gotten out of jail and Wellington Phoenix can stay in the A-league as an Australian club. It it's doesn't then Wellington Phoenix is one step closer to extinction.
Jason W
Guest
Just to put my 2c in, would the Phoenix position have anything to with the same issue with the Premiership in the UK a few years ago where one of the players went to court over the "foreign" player situation saying that restricting it to only UK players was a restriction of trade for the EU. It was something along the lines of the fact that EU citizens are allowed to work anywhere in the EU (including the UK) hence considering them in the foreign player restrictions for UK clubs was illegal. Since NZers are allowed to work in Aus and we have a free trade agreement would there be some scope for a similar position? I may be talking through my arse, but I just wonder...
dasilva
Guest
Kazama You're an idealist. I like that. You're a Star Trek fan? If so then respect. Sometimes I feel like they don't exist in Adelaide. Looking forward to the next Star Trek movie and hoping it will revitalise the series after the disasterous Enterprise. Back to NZ I'm hoping that Wellington Phoenix do fight to the end but I'm suspecting that it would end pear shape because in the end convincing the sponsor to stick around despite a deadline is going to be extremely difficult. Although I have a query about Australian laws about our relationship with New Zealand. I know we give New zealanders special treatment regarding work visas in Australia and vice versa where it's virtually citizenship in one country, citizen in another. Does anyone with more knowledge about the status of New Zealand living and working here that could work. Is discrimination toward New Zealander by classifying them as foreign players could be considered illegal in Australia like it is illegal to discriminate other EU nationals in europe. I'm not an expert in legal status but perhaps other people here at the Roar could clarify This could be one of the last and final hopes for NZ football in finding that loop hole. Phoenix are not going to accept the condition where NZ players are considered foreigners and only 5 new zealanders are able to play in the team in any period of time.
Kazama
Roar Guru
Why would fans support a team condemned to death, you ask? Well, IMO, the Phoenix and its fans would be well served to keep fighting for their existence even after sentence is passed because FIFA will find it that much harder to condone the erasure of a healthy, competitive and well-supported club, especially considering that it is the only professional soccer team that NZ has. It'd be like sending a message to FIFA saying 'hey, get rid of us and see what you will lose to the rugby codes.' And what if the Phoenix won the championship in the 2010/11 season? How could FIFA condone kicking them out then? The club would have to do its utmost to convince sponsors to stick around because the game isn't lost until they're dead. Even with the 2011 deadline looming, there is still a lot of good work the Phoenix can do for promoting the game in NZ and Oceania, which perhaps may even lead to a professional competition forming in New Zealand and Oceania. So, there is no reason why to me the Phoenix should just throw in the towel even if it is certain to be handed the death sentence. Remember, they cancelled Star Trek in 1969 and look what has happened to that concept since then thanks to its fans. Football in NZ is no different - if the fans want it to continue and work hard enough for it, it will live on one way or another. But, from my point of view, the fight for the Phoenix's survival is very much still on. MbH hasn't won this yet. He's not even close to winning.
dasilva
Guest
Also if Phoenix are kicked out at 2011 Why would a sponsor keep on supporting phoenix who have no long term future. I expect the sponsor to pull out once it's clear that phoenix license will be withdrawn in 2011 Why would crowds support a team that's is on death throes knowing that in a few years it will be gone. On The World Game when asked that question whether they can guarantee that NZ phoenix will enter next years A-league. The club didn't answer the question and saying we're only thinking about this years. Ominous signs.
dasilva
Guest
FFA are bound by FIFA 6+5 rule. That rule is actually in place it's just that in Europe it's 6 + 5 non eu players (therefore can still have zero non local players as long as they are part of the european union). Therefore there can only be a maximum of 5 NZ players in the team. However I believe there is a loop hole. just as restricting EU players representing a club is against EU laws. Restricting NZ to represent Australian clubs can be interpreted as against Australian laws. Perhaps a legal battle is at hands?