Quick Quiz: which of the top ten rugby nations doesn’t have a national comp of any consequence? Don’t know? Let me make it easier.
Which of the big four Southern Hemisphere nations doesn’t have a national comp of any consequence – South Africa, New Zealand, Australia or Argentina?
Still don’t know?
Try Australia.
It’s a damning indictment of Australian rugby that, firstly, we don’t have enough participation players of a particular standard to play in a national competition. And secondly, that we haven’t yet been able to inaugurate a national comp. Although it hasn’t always been from lack of trying.
Consider the following:
2007
The ARU under Gary Flowers implemented an 8 team national club Australian Rugby Championship (ARC). It lasted just the one season.
The 30 leading WRC squad players were deemed ineligible, robbing the comp of its very best players. High player relocation costs and ground hire fees, and poor location allocation of franchises contributed to the downfall of this competition.
2006
The ARU implemented the four team Super franchises Australian Provincial Championship (APC). It also lasted just the one season.
I’m still not sure why this comp was canned. Maybe the media and sponsors just weren’t interested, which is a pity.
2000
The ARU implemented a six team second tier national region Australian Rugby Shield (ARS). Despite changes in both the name and location of teams, and format of structure, the comp still survives.
1996
ACT Brumbies was created as third Australian Province to join NSW Waratahs and Queensland Reds in S12. In 2006, WA Force joined expanded S14 comp.
To this day, New Zealand rugby and South African rugby are subsidizing Australian rugby, because without the Super 14, we would be totally lost. Maybe it suits New Zealand and South Africa to help us out?
1968/77
Ambitious national competition titled ‘Wallaby Trophy’ implemented, involving wight unions in two divisions. First Div – Sydney, NSW Country, Queensland, Victoria. Second Div – WA, SA, Tasmania, Qld Country.
The concept of this comp was sound, but the timing was lousy. Australian rugby was both very amateur and weak all-round in the period 1968/77. Whether perseverance would have succeeded is something we will never know.
1930s
Victoria emerged as genuine “third force” in Australian domestic rugby. At least once each between 1930-39, it beat NSW and Queensland.
WW2 stopped the development of Victorian rugby dead in its tracks, much to the detriment of the national rugby game as a whole.
1882
NSW played Queensland in first inter-state rugby match. Apart from two world wars, the collapse of rugby in Qld (1919-28), and the odd other year, these two states have a tradtion of sporting rivalry dating back over 125 years.
So there you have it.
This will be the 127th year since NSW played Queensland in our first inter-state match. And apart from our four Provinces meeting each other in the Super 14, we still have no national comp that we can call entirely our own.
Argentina is the only country among the ‘top 10 combined player quality and economic wealth’ powers not to belong to an annual international tournament of some description. Yet they have a domestic set-up that shames Australia.
Firstly, they have the Zona Campeonato (Zone Championship). This involves 24 provinces throughout Argentina. The top eight Provinces form the ZC, which is a promotion and relegation comp.
The remaining 16 Provinces play in the Zona Ascenso (Zone Promotion). They are divided into two equal pools, a north and south pool, each of eight Provinces.
And that is not all.
There is also a 16 national club teams comp known as the Torneo National de Clubes (National Clubs Tournament). This comp works on a quota system depending on where clubs finish in their regional comps (equivalent of our Premier Rugby district comps).
Eight clubs are drawn from Buenos Aires Province and the remaining eight from the rest of the country. The 16 clubs are divided into 4 pools.
Yet Australian rugby continues to drag its feet on the issue of a national comp. Part of the historical problem has been a lack of depth of quality players and numbers. Part of the problem is the tyranny of distance. Part of the problem is the cost associated with transferring players to non-rugby regions.
A big part of the problem continues to be the intractability of Sydney and Brisbane Premier Rugby district comps to place the national interest ahead of their self-interest.
In a scenario that reads a bit like landing a man on the moon but not finding a cure for the common cold, we read stories about the Wallabies playing Bledisloe Cup matches in Tokyo or Los Angeles, and expanding the Super 14 to include not only Argentine Provinces but also Japan.
Yet, Australian rugby appears entirely incapable of creating its own national comp.
lovin rugby
Guest
Sorry I am late with this. We need a National rugby comp and we need club tribalism to develop it. We actually allready have the game that we can start the process with and we just need to expand on it. For several years there has been a game called The Australian Club Championship match and it is played every year between the premiership club of Sydney and Brisbane. Unfortunately it is played the following year after the teams win their respective premierships and it is played usually as a curtain raiser of a super14match (reds v NSW). Last year Sunnybank played Sydney Uni. This year it will be Brisbane Easts verse Sydney Uni. The problem is they are made up with different players than the teams that won the respective comps because of the lag time and also because of super 14 duties. The answer is to play this game one or two weeks after the respective state premier comps finish and before the test season commences. A superbowl game if you will. Put a decent cash prize up and have it televised on free to air. Grow it and turn it into a final series. Start with a final and grow a competion from there. Everyone hates hearing the term relegation in club rugby but at the end of the day if you dont cut it you dont deserve it. The problem isnt the players it is that until there is a worthwhile competion for clubs to partipate in, there is a destinct lack of interest from serious business orientated people to get involved in managing rugby clubs. Most of the clubs are broke and run by old blokes who crave the good old days! They actually want mediocore comps so that they dont have to face the fact that their beloved clubs (and more importantly them) just wont cut it in a professional enviroment. Oniel should show true leadership. Force the two primary states to have their seasons end on the same weekend and then have the superbowl game organised, promoted, sponsored and televised. Let it grow!
Westy The Real Rugby Fan
Guest
Westy or should I say russ 13 from rugby league forum . What's it like to pretent to be a rugby union fan when you hate the sport ?
Midfielder
Guest
TT Had never tho about it in the way you have presented it .. but you are spot on in what you say.
Westy
Guest
True Tah I think your observations are spot on. NZ rugby has saved our bacon. By the way we were informed by JOn the hit from the ARC was $4 million. There seems to be some possible contradiction here now. The net loss may now be just over a million. The price of Tuquiri. True Tah I am allowed to be emotive on this issue. The code I follow has basically lost between 20 to 40 million depending on who you believe since 2003. and we do not have that much to show for it.There is no consistent articulation of the needs of Western Sydney or the affiliated states. I cannot believe that their is no outcry over what is basically penny pinching idiocy in cancelling the Australian rugby Championship.Its cost was insignificant but its symbolism of rugby being active in the other states immeasurable.The ARu sees the world as they wish to see it not how it really is. Must be depressed or getting old . We turn into old soccer only important every World Cup. To the converted the super 14 is important to the ordinary punter it is fairly meaningless. I had a look at our Pay TV numbers. Take out the Waratahs and we just do not rate.
True Tah
Guest
Midfielder its clear who has been the major beneficiary of the trans-tasman rugby relationship - I think it would be a safe bet to say that Australia would not have won the 1999 World Cup if Super rugby did not exist, as we had been forced to rely on Sydney club rugby, which has died since arounf that time as well, in 1996, the final drew around 30K to the SFS...seems so long ago...
True Tah
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Midfielder RL would have taken over completely long ago with no NZ...I never figured out why the likes of NZ and Wales elected to stay with rugby union, when league offered them much more?? However, in the right management, the strength of NZ rugby could be turned into a strength for Australian rugby as outlined above. Its clear that there are those in NZ who want the current system changed. The Air NZ Cup does not get huge sponsorship dollars, unlike the Currie Cup in SA which just entered into a massive Pay TV deal.
Midfielder
Guest
TT Astute comment you made above about how without NZ having such a strong RU setup ... rugby in Australia would struggle ...
The Link
Guest
Sin-ick, the ARU paid the ABC to cover the ARC. No TV revenue came into the ARU. When Super 14 doesn't even get close to NRL for ratings on Fox, why would Fox take on ARC games?
Sin-ick
Guest
I hadn't heard that. That's a real shame. I thought it had great benifits for all nations. I, for one, loved the ARC and thought it was a great comp. I think the first major problem was getting the ABC to cover it. Surely they could have given it Foxsport and got a bit of advertising behind it. They could have shown it live on a Friday night when Channel Nine had the league, and Foxsport showed a replay of Thursday Big Time Boxing. Then again on Sunday afternoons when the league is on Channel Nine and nothing and no footy is on Fox. What we should have is our own rugby channel....... that would be sweet.
True Tah
Guest
Sin-ick I thought that plan got canned, cos SANZA couldnt come to the party on that, or more specifically the SA part of SAANZA was displeased.
Sin-ick
Guest
Gentlemen, Firstly if this was posted above, then please forgive me. There are a lot of posts and I do nothave the time to read them all, however I wanted to have my say. I heard late last year that the proposal was to play the S14, then at the end of the regular season each local team plays each other again, with the points going towards there S14 tally. Then at the end of that the top 6 go into a final and and play off over a 3 week final series. I believe John Oneill was putting this to SANZA so hopefully that will be given a chance.
True Tah
Guest
Westy, if JON had stayed on after 2003, then maybe ARU would be in stronger position - unfortunately we ended up with Flowers, and for all their knowledge of the law, lawyers like Flowers are generally woefully inept in running large organisations in a commercial manner (maybe Obama will prove me wrong here). Then sacking Flowers cost a few hundred grand as well!! How the hell did $40m disappear from the coffers like that??
Westy
Guest
True Tah and MC all the best for the New Year. I have always made clear that the AFL is the best run competition in Australia. Whilst most of the rugby posters acknowledge this they are disdainful of rugby league. The Gold Coast Titans is an outstanding success as I am sure the AFL will be. The NRL may have missed the boat with Central Coast but it got this right. Western Force has had a 20 % drop in membership over 12 months and play at an unsuitable oval. Apart from being pissed at training killing Quokkas and breaking the jaws of teammates under the table payments and fines by the ARU putting their coach on restricted duties and carrying out a survey by a judge for godsake ( only in rugby) to disclose 30 out of 36 players and 10 out of 12 support staff have areal problem wiyh the coach all is going swimmingly. This does not happen in rugby only in that terrible NRL and well run AFL. The fact we only have 4 professional teams does not seem to enter the equation. Fundamentally the ARU manages 4 professional teams and a national team . If we had another 12 we would have just as many " incidents " as the other codes yet we distinguish ourselves what can only be biased hypocrisy. I know that both the AFL and indeed the NRL would have made a much better fist of managing the largesse of our world Cup windfall than tha ARU has done. We have frittered it away and it was not all down to ARC as JON puts forward. For a code that prides itself on the support of the Corporate class our managerial acumen has been very poor. It is no secret that the million dollar loan turned grant turned gift of Macquarie Bank saved our bacon. NSWRU has even been more inept although has shown recent signs of improvement.Let us face it it was utterly bankrupt. We now play Wallabies v All Blacks games in Hong Kong because they do not make the money in Australia. We dress it up as developing the game in Asia. Just tell the truth and manage the game. We save money by dropping the Australian Rugby Shield for the non rugby states yet pretend we develop the game nationwide. We mock the NRL and their salary cap and how thet will lose players to Europe ignoring the more obvious threat to our rugby players going and our far less depth in playing talent. Be under no illusion the Barbarians did not volunteer to play in Australia they were invited requested pressured ( all Three)to do so and it is rumoured even to the extent of suggested player selections. Why? the real politick is the ARU are scared witless the Italian tour will be a debacle. Response shift the Sydney test to Canberra and its much smaller stadium and try to make big money out of the Barbarians game. Most likely good management do not lie about the reason it just perpetuates the hypocrisy that has held us back for years.
Simon
Guest
There are two main problems with your suggestion Sheek: 1. No Southern Hemisphere country would want their international players and even potential international players missing out on Super Rugby exposure. They would prefer to have 3-4 franchises containing their best players, as per the path NZ were quick to take with the onset of Super Rugby. This is the main difference between the club focus in Europe, and the international team focus in the Southern Hemisphere. 2. Super Rugby would suffer from a spectator’s point of view and a broadcaster’s point of view without the best players playing against each other. Although you might have the best teams against each other, imagine if Dan Carter was in a team that didn’t make the Super cut! The tournament would be lacking. I believe the answer is there, but it must take a different path to this.
True Tah
Guest
MC the ANZ Championship has done a fantastic job - I was under the impression that the W-League would overtake it as the premier sporting league for women in Australia, but W-League has no pay tv deal at the moment and I can't see it drawing over 10K to its final.
Michael C
Guest
TT - so, the Rugby Union and Netball.......similar models. well........organisational structures prospectively............I much prefer the netball 'models'.......gimme any of those girls ahead of Matt Dunning.
True Tah
Guest
MC I would argue that the strength of Australian rugby is the fact we are so close to a nation with an abundance of gifted players and excellent rugby infrastructure - New Zealand. Arguably if we did not have NZ, rugby would probably not be played in Australia whatsoever. For mine, the optimum structure would be to have a Trans-Tasman Competition, based around existing Aust S14 franchises + Melbourne and NZ provinces - how many NZ sides depends on how many they can afford, but one thing they have is player depth, which maybe we can tap into in terms of getting players for Australian sides. Maybe having a Heineken Cup style tournament with Currie Cup plus some Japanese/Argentinean sides is also possible? I still believe Perth was the right choice when Super rugby expanded as it was an easier market to penetrate than Melbourne and Im glad the NRL/Storm probably breathed a sigh of relief when it was announced that Perth would get the gig. Both the HAL and NRL are essentially Trans-Tasman comps, albeit with the balance of sides definitely skewed to this side of the Tasman.
Michael C
Guest
TT - it's one of those things - the distance - that the Super 14s carries the burden for the ARU - - i.e. inclusive of Perth especially instead of Melb (which would've taken care of the 'eastern seaboard'). Given the Super 14s is international - obviously, it's part of the over all equation. For a national league - -it's a big ask to send teams back and forth to Perth when you already have this quasi national/quasi domestic super 14 structure that fundamentally prohibits a level below national league. I really don't see much room to move......other than.........for return on investment, a Super XX team in Melb would provide a greater chance of Wallabies matches into Melb prior to midnight!! Would that be cost effective? But - to have an ARC style comp running nationally and hope it'd work............especially with zero capacity by head office to underwrite it..............that ain't gonna happen. The ARU has to play to it's strengths.............and......that really isn't a domestic 'truely national' 'club' competition. That space, after all - is pretty well occupied. - - - - - I still love that most Australians regard Victoria as a small state.......but, at 237,629 km2, it would accommodate the Czech Republic (~79K km2, 10.4 mill pop'n), Croatia (~56.6K km2, 4.5 mill pop'n), Bosnia (~51K km2, 4 mill pop'n), Israel (22K km2, 7.3 mill pop'n) and fit in Slovenia (20.2K km2, 2 mill pop'n)..............do that, and a 10 team AFL becomes an international league across 6 countries with plenty of room for Luxembourg and Liechtenstein too. Reality is - - Victoria is a single state within Australia with a population of 5.2 mill compared to over 28 million as listed in those 'countries' above. That just shows what you're up against here in Australia. (but also the scope for niche sports to grow in more highly populated lands so long as venues can be found). Heck, Victoria could fit the Netherlands 5 and half times........they have almost 17 million population.........could you imagine 90 million in Victoria!!!!
True Tah
Guest
MC yeah the distance is a killer in Australia, in terms of comparable countries with professional sporting comps, well the US/Canada, Russia, China and India would be the only really comparable nations...Brazil is a massive country, but the vast majority of its population is concentrated in the southeast, making travel less of a bugbear.
Michael C
Guest
TT - dodgey backgrounds doesn't stop soccer. The Link - problem with private ownership is you're NOT the main fare (e.g. world soccer, the big boys in the big leagues) is that if owners fall over,..........then whiteknights can be hard to find at short notice. TT - interesting the mention of Russia and distances............in the AFLQ, Northern Territory has entered a team, plays half home games in Darwin and half in the Alice...........1300 kms travel for home games!! And play from Cairns to the Gold Coast..........2000-2800 kms. It'll be a good test for the lads. It does though put in perspective the issues with respect to trying to 'join the dots' nationalise a code in Australia at any significant level.