2009's Super 14 rugby is super entertainment

Fair enoug Bob, just general interest. I may well do that.

sam, it is me mate! hello... kuives out, I have to consider carefully before naming the guys, but if you message me privately I may tel you if youkep it private. I don't want to get back into the ELV debate, I think most have been positive and theres no need to go over them again, except to say that when you increase pace (with the short arm) you should also increase the power or at least preserve it, (rolling maul). The issue with this thread is entertainment, and I think the s14 is less entertaining now because the real variety has gone.True, the Highlanders look interesting because they are trying to play a more traditional game.... but listen to the crowd boo when the kick to kick starts, and roar when a maul is set, only to groan when it immediately collapses and someone kicks. The tap and go isn't negative, but the short arm is too often used, so the breakdown always breaks down... players get no time to really contest because refs are too keen... and no kick to touch hasnt led to layers running more, just kicking deep again and again. Rrue he IRB messed up, and so did each union in its intrnasigence. There is no way we hould have the short arm in the south and no short arm in the north. But entertainment it is not, you cannot tell me the s14 is better now than it was 3 or 5 years ago? Surely not?

And if this is the same Bob that I think it is, he's also had experience playing in the SH playing several seasons in NZ. Debating the merits or demerits of the ELV's has been done to death since their inception but for many of the more experienced heads here - can you recall a time in rugby where there was never a debate about the pros/cons of the current laws of the game? The most valuable lesson the IRB can learn from this entire exercise for the future is how not to rollout law changes.

Wow, who are your cousins and nephew Bob?

sorry left arm, I've got 30 years as a tighthead, reitired just 4 years ago, have two cousins playing pro rugby, one an international prop, one a league player who represents GB, and a nephew playing pro as a prop in uk 1st division. I've also coached for 8 years. So.... save your "I dare you to stick your head" crap. i dared plenty... by the way, i also fought on the judo mat to rep level as an adult. My cranium is well accustomed to be stuck in the way of big men. And the ELV's don't work. At best, they could have kept the rolling maul, some place for heavyweights to really challenge... look at most senior age grade teams now and you see homogenous bodies... look at the s14 and you've gto crowds booing the kicking... tries don't make great games, varying tactics do, specialized players do, big heavy forwards powering through in the tight, fast backs, stepping through the broken play... tension makes great rugby, not ariel ping ping, countless short arms, and standardised tactics. If you can't b objective, you'll lose the support of the crowds, and bore the pants off young players... and even worse, lose the real heavyweights.

Ulysses, I'm not saying that the GP is superior in my statement, although I think it is. The Top 14 isn't, and the ML isn't, and this is coming from a Welsh boyo. You can offer winning stats but having watched the recent Spring tour there is nothing to be afraid of from any team bar NZ. Australia were very, very limited. The were fortunate to beat Italy and France and beat England only because England gave away so many kickable penalties. Wales could and should have blown them away. The team offered nothing ball in hand and looked one-dimensional. The same applies to SA, however SA have huge natural talent, Australia doesn't, and were PdV not in charge I'm sure they would have had a better season. That said, they were equally poor on their Spring tour. They were very, very forutnate to beat Wales and Scotland and just looked to defend and kick. In contrast NZ looked good, which is amazing how limited their selection pool was. Let's also not forget that prior to the Spring tour the SH sides had already been in camp for 20 weeks. I believe that were the 3N sides playing the 6N sides right now, home and away, each side would win home, but only NZ would win away. Ireland, Wales and France are looking to play a different type of game and SA and Australia have reverted to basics. That doesn't bode well for the future. This isn't a tit-for-tat argument but my original point was that the article is - without wishing to be rude to LeftArmSpinner - very pointless a) because the tournament is so young, b) because quite clearly the tournament has thrown up some awful games (see a), and c) the author is espousing the same rugby virtues that the southern hemisphere used to criticise the northern hemisphere for representing.

KO - a fair bit of this debate is at cross-purposes and some of what you say is undeniable - early season rust etc. BUT - I will jump in on this point. It always bemuses me to read NH fans claiming the superiority of the GP or other NH provincial/club comps over the S14; when of course the best players of the S14 combined in their national teams beat the best players of the GP/et al combined in their national teams 90%+ of the time whether home or away! How can this be??!!

Recognise what? There's been two weeks of S14 and despite some horrible skills and some awful games - which I will gladly list if you desire - and yet the good ol' platitude "It's tense and is exciting" is already on show. As far as I was aware the central success of Super rugby was that it was meant to be fast and the skills superior to anything on display in the northern hemisphere. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that, and my logic would be that a) it probably isn't true in a lot of cases, and b) the tournament is only two weeks old, so rust is expected, and to that extent this article is pure fallacy and rather pointless. This article praises the variety of play in the S14, and you Dan suggest that running rugby is the generic style. No it isn't, that's the whole point of the article, and you LAS are contradicting yourself by aligning yourself with that comment. LAS why don't you articulate exactly what the ELVs have done for Super rugby, and specifically what positives they have had, and why the play is any different to the play I viewed two years ago and prior to the ELVs. I'd be really interested in your analysis. I'd also like you to answer why such an allegedly bold and vibrant league produced the sort of play that South Africa and Australia offered on their recent Spring tour. It just does not correllate. The Welsh don't support the ELVs because they are badly thought out, have been arrogantly mismanaged and do little to improve the game. Further, the southern hemisphere has completely misunderstood the genesis and subsequent development of the ELVs, thinking they were necessary to improve the game as a spectatcle, which is not the case. The ELVs have not eased the referees burden, nor have they cleared up the breakdown. If the original issue is to be taken as the subjectivity of the breakdown ruling then the problem must be the rugby education of the referees. There has been constant politicking from O'Neill who has done more personally to polarise the north-south divide than any number of badly thought out rules could. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I hold no belief that the ELVs were Australian inspired and all that tosh, but I recognise that were the ELVs a business proposal they would not have cleared the first hurdle.

KO, i am just calling it as I see it. I have been very critical of rugby in the past, particularly over the Tahs unimaginative playing style last season and the Wallabies pre deans. But, through my eyes, and having watched all 7 games last week, I called it as I saw it. The stats do back it up as well. The audience figures will always lag the actual play/entertainment. I didnt say everything is well in our house. context is important. It is early in the season. Teams, coaches, personnel, tactics have changed and are being learned. The majority of the games were closely fought and had the necessary ingredients of good rugby, physical and skilful. Help me understand why Welsh rugby, currently played with ball in hand etc. doesnt support the ELVS and why you dont see that the same style is being played in S14. Pierre Spies is one of the less well performed backrowers in the comp this season. According to the Fantasy comp stats, he ranks 5th and almost 30% OFF THE PACE OF SMITH AND SMITH! 1. George Smith BR 10.1 78 2. Juan Smith CE 7.2 75 3. Richard Brown WF 8.1 67 4. David Pocock WF 7.1 62 5. Pierre Spies BU 6.7 59

With all due respect I am absolutely stunned with this article and some of the responses. Post-Leninist propaganda artists had nothing on you LAS. I tend to agree with Bob, the people are voting with their feet. Some games have been exciting but with no relegation all games should be exciting, however some games have been appalling. It seems to me that the very virtues that hordes of southern hemisphere rugby fans have previously criticised northern hemisphere rugby for are now being embraced in an attempt to hide some pretty poor rugby. I accept and enjoy all varieties of rugby but this strikes me, a Welsh fan, as the southern hemisphere - or more accurately Australian fans - trying to have its cake and eat it. I think the performance of Pierre Spies best illustrates my point. Versus the Blues he scored two tries, looked fit, athletic and effective; the prototype modern no. 8. He missed 10 tackles out of 16. Scrappy at best. Obviously the season is only in the first quarter but this type of "Everything is well in our house" is a little bizarre.

You must be watching a different game to me and everyone else I know... it's been a shocking joke as far as I can see, and no wonder the crowds are staying away! It's not a patch on the tension and variety of the NH club scene, and needs to be taken back from the misery of the ELV's and have real variety, real forwards and real varying tactics re-introduced. Otherwise it all dies under head-in-the-sand patriotic sham.

The decision to put a team in Perth will cost the ARU dearly. Sydney/QLD to Perth is like an international fixture. Add a note on why the comment is inappropriate, and click the button below to confirm Enter the text shown: Small thinking indeed. AFL, cricket, NBL, netball, soccer, water polo, hockey, etc think Perth is still part of Australia, in a state that generates huge income for the rest of Australia and holds the biggest potential to grow rugby in Australia. The Force should be allowed to concentrate on broadening their foothold in an AFL state, not wasting time battling the reactionary attitudes of those who limit their vision to how much gold paint they can daub on the honour boards at Sydney Uni, Randwick, etc.

LEFTARMSPINNER 'we need to explain rugby to people'.lets start with the refs.Refs have a greater influence on the game than ELV's. The only rugby available to people on a weekly basis is local club rugby.An away derby is held in the next suburb. Super 14 doesnt count. Six home games per season in a massive stadium is not conducive to explaining the game to the uninitiated.It's not user friendly.That leaves TV,and the cornerstone for watching rugby on TV is either 1, preaching to the converted,or 2, Must be entertaining or switch chanels.Not much room to move really.Sam Norton Knight will join Cardiff Blues next season.I am sure there is a financial consideration but a major reason is that Sam wants a crack at playing five-eigth.One of the difficulties of explaining rugby to people in Australia is not only that there are just six high quality professional games to see per season,but also, the likes of Sam NK are forced to ply their trade overseas because there is nowhere in Australia for them to play.

Rob, the Tahs were doing this last year early in the season but then didnt continue. Davo, wishful thinking as most fans have long memories. But, for me, every game is a good game. WB, I agree. Defence is a part of rugby and good defence is part of good rugby. it too can be entertaining, particularly as it builds emotion, whether it is excitement, frustration or anticipation. Just look at the big hits in midfield or the goal line defence to hold out an all out attack. great stuff. Then the counter attack is on, from Masaga or Sivi. We need to explain rugby to people. They are not stupid. They can get a game's nuances and complexity. It doesnt have to be the tragically dubbed down, predictable fare that the once great game of rugby league has become.

Radike Samo's playing for the Yokogawa Atlastars in Japan. Here's a link: http://www.yokogawa-rugby.com/forward_fl#08

LAS -about time someone brought sense this discussion. The Waratahs/Chiefs game was not dour, it was a very keen contest and, just like the Brumbies game, both teams fought for possession and both teams were confronted by very well organised defences. It may not be colours and lighting to keep the masses happy but there was a contest for the whole game. The Chiefs were very effective in closing down the Waratahs backline -perhaps another referee would not have allowed this-Sivivatu always looked as though he could "steal" the win. Worlds Biggest- your mate in Ireland may have only read a republication of Greg Growden's report on the game.

I think a lot of people have over looked the defence from Tahs & Chiefs was by in large very solid. Yes it was a very dour game but a lot of that was to do with the Chiefs stifling the Tahs backline for the most part of the game. The only try we could score was from a very good cross kick. The Chiefs looked a lot more dangerous in the backs and at times came close to breaking it open with Sivivatu threatening. I only saw highlights of the other games so can't comment too much. I have heard a few people saying how they were impresssed with the Reds style despite the loss. A mate of mine from Ireland sent me a link to an article from planet rugby saying how boring the Tahs v Chiefs game was. It is spot on but they are quick over there to stick the knife into Super 14 particularly one Stephen Jones. I guess it works both ways. The first weekend was a fantastic advert for Super 14.