The real problem with Australian rugby

Looks like D-day is fast approaching, and GG's making the big call in Monday Maul today: "No matter what, Parramatta must be propped up ... For this to happen, it requires the other Sydney premiership clubs, including those who have pilfered Parramatta's talent, to forget self-interest, look at the broader picture, and be prepared to provide financial support to ensure one of their longstanding counterparts remain - to the extent of even diverting some of their annual grant towards Parramatta." Good luck!

Fair enough - consider my various rants partially retracted

Ahhhh Jez, My title was "ANOTHER problem with Australian rugby". The editors, in their wisdom, seeing an opportunity for massive controversy, changed it to "The real problem With Australian rugby". As you would appreciate, there is a massive difference in meaning between 'another problem' & the real problem'. So, the SU issue is merely one of many issues bedeviling Australian rugby IMHO, not the ONE & ONLY problem. I'm not impressed that the editors changed the intent of the title (& therefore, the article) so significantly, but there you have it.....

with all due respect, the title of the article is "the real problem with Australian rugby" and it is largely about Sydney Uni...

I don't believe that this thread is "blaming the ills of Australian rugby on Sydney Uni" - it is merely stating that there is not a level playing field for the Shute Shiled in Sydney and Sydney Uni is at the centre of this.

Rickety, Yours and Yikes' point is, I think, misleading. With regards to the signings of Campo and Barnes I am not privy to the decision-making process at the club though I would suggest that the impact on the club will not be as large as some seem keen to suggest. Though again I am inclined to ask - if Barnes has come to uni and asked them if they would be interested in signing him and helping him get into a uni degree, what would you have them say? Similarly if they are overlooking a list of resumes as to who is to be the next backs / skills coach and come across Campo's name are they gonna go with someone else? It is not hard to believe that if they had have said no in either event everyone would be up in arms calling them arrogant... With regards to the points, I think (again I have no inside knowledge) the contention that Uni has with that particular system is that it is not the right means of evening the comp - they brought it in last year as the supposed saviour of competitive balance and it didn't do anything - the "have-nots" continued not to have because most of the elite rugby players do not live in and have never lived in western sydney. If you want the western sydney clubs to be good, lets develop some good young players from western sydney. The problem is not that good young players from western sydney are being poached, the problem is that there simply aren't enough of them due to a failure across the board in Australian rugby to invest in the region. The imbalances in the competition are clearly doing no-one any favours but blaming the ills of Australian rugby on Sydney Uni is misguided and unproductive

Jez, to quote Yikes: "What makes them “hated” though? Well, it’s when, despite all this structural advantage they have over other clubs, they then start rubbing everyone’s noses in it by signing the likes of Barnes and Campese. And then they (along with some other clubs) vote not to reduce the points cap for this season, which makes life even harder for the have-nots in the competition. All decisions in the best interest of Uni doubtless, but in the best interests of rugby? What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? What good is it for Sydney University to dominate a weakened competition struggling to retain 10 competitive teams"? :

Yes - guilty - I am a uni player and supporter but that doesn't mean that what myself, Loges, Bruce Ross and others are saying is wrong (of course it doesn't necessarily make it right either) I'm all for transparency in the recruiting process - I think it would show that Sydney Uni is not the recruiting juggernaut that people seem to think it is. Rather, as a lot of people have said it WOULD show that Uni has a big natural advantage in recruiting. The reality is that a lot of the best players from the GPS and CAS comps are boarders from the country which is why the schools that have lots of boarders - Joeys, Kings, Riverview, Knox, Barker - are the ones that do well. These kids get to the end of school, want to go to uni and a lot of them end up at the Sydney University colleges, who sometimes give them scholarships because they want to win the internal intercollegiate competition. Surprisingly enough given that the uni colts train on the college ovals, most of these kids play for the uni colts, and why wouldn't you, knowing that you're a pretty good chance of winning the comp... It should be noted that most of Sydney Uni's waratahs and wallabies went through this process - Dan Halangahu, Luke Burgess, Will Caldwell, Phil Waugh, Dave Dennis, Tom Carter and Mitch Inman all lived on campus. As did Nick Farr Jones... The real question is - if these country boys were not going to the Usyd colleges, would they be going to penrith and parramatta? the answer is a resounding no. Uni also arguably has an advantage recruiting established players (which it should be noted they haven't really done for a long time before Barnes and they have previously stated they have a policy against). Uni can get these guys into uni courses to help set them up for life after rugby and that is a better offer than the cash offered by other clubs. Again, if Uni were not in the comp would Barnes be going to Penirth or Parramatta? Not a chance in hell. I should re-iterate though that uni's stated policy had always been not to sign established players which is why Josh Valentine and Drew Mitchell, amongst others were turned away. In reality it will be a surprise if BB plays more than 2 or 3 games for Uni So yes, Sydney Uni has an advantage in recruiting but to suggest that all of this makes Sydney Uni the cause of AUSTRALIAN rugby's problems is absurd. How you solve these natural advantages is anyone's guess, but kicking uni out of the comp is surely not the answer...

Yeah but 1HD probably gets those things dead cheap whereas it would probably cost a fair bit to go and sit up all the equipment to telecast the game. Then again I know that the Shute Shield was doing alright towards the end of last season to the extent that it was beating Swans games on channel 10.

Shute Shield has got to be better than some of the crap on One HD. Who watches slamball, bullriding and paintball? Is all this content given to One HD for nothing?

GM, agree with your sentiments, but I suspect there are a good # of rugger folk who "just quietly", don't care that the West is lost. It appears to me that the blinkers are on and this selfish and shortsighted mindset will only come back to bite them. SU v Wicks GF again this year??? On another point, I've read this entire thread with interest & find it astonishing the lengths to which some will go to to back their beloved club. It's a great sentiment to say things like; "why don't the others come up to our level, rather than us drop ours"...Kinda misses the point huh??? The simple fact is the SS is not an even playing field, not even close & it's incumbent upon the NSWRU (&, really, the ARU), to ensure a workable solution is found. I'm not suggesting SU should be penalised for being successful and attracting passionate people to run & administer the club, just that more effort should be made at NSWRU level (or above), to ensure transparency in the recruiting of players (either superstars of S14 or kids), as this is the core of the argument. BB going to SU was a disgrace.

Good post Sheeks, I used to play first grade rugby and am dispaired at the state it is in at the moment. Yes I do think Uni have an unfair advantage in terms of access to players and as a result only 2 maybe three teams can win the shute shield this year (like last year and the year before that.....). How is this a good competition?? How can Berrick Barnes and Campo go to Uni and be good for club rugby?? I live in the western suburbs and agree there is a perception that uni get a free ride. However the real threat to rugby is that no one really cares in the west. Kids in Chruch St mall or High st penrith wouldn't know a waratah from a 4th grader from Oatley. They know Jarryd Hayne and Michael Jennings. They are getting free footies and rego from AFL. And are now going to get a A league team to support as well. NSWRU can honestly not expect one more Tatafu or Peter Bessling or Kurtley Beale. It will be interesting to see when the new Super TV rights come up again and (I'm hoping I'm wrong) Penrith and Parra aren't playing Shute Shield, what will happen to the rights if rugby doesn't have a presence in western Sydney. Then maybe NSW and Sydney Uni will take notice.

Really doubt it would happen. As far as I understand the NSWRU still has to subsidise the ABC to show club rugby, I don't know why anyone would pay for it.

How does removing the best run, best coached, best organised, most successful club in Sydney and the most successful pathway from amateur rugby to professional rugby in the country possibly improve anything? The way to improve the comp is surely to pull everyone else up, not to drag sydney uni down. I'm not saying I know how to do this but Loges suggestion of scrapping the waratah academy and diverting those funds to support junior rugby and the western sydney clubs seems like a very good one to me. Additionally, now that we've stopped throwing cash at leaguies there should be a bit more money floating about... Personally I think the academy system is a big part of the problem and is not really helping anyone. I'd love to see the days of picking a Sydney side from the Shute Shield to play against a similar side from Brisbane - you'd get the gun youngsters plus a couple of club veterans (the Tim Davidsons and Ross Duncans of the world) and I reckon you'd draw a pretty good crowd as a curtain raiser for a tahs game. Moreover, I heard there was talk about selling the rights to the shute shield to 1HD - even with the club 4th graders commentating and minimal production values I would watch it... does anyone know what happened to this idea?

Andrew, You have asked several times the meaning of the following phrase, & I had to wait until I had the appropriate diplomatic reply articulated in my mind. "Associated mindset". This is when otherwise decent, well-intentioned rugby folk are 'blindsided' by the need to put the good of rugby throughout the country before club, or city or state/province. This blindsiding led to the refusal to bend impractical, unfair amateur laws over a century ago, which very nearly killed off the code in this country. This blindsiding led to Queensland becoming resentful at a lack of support for development & selection (for Wallabies) opportunities. This blindsiding led to resistance for the introduction of ACT Brumbies in 1996. This blindsiding led to resistance for the introduction of WA Force in 2006. This blindsiding led to resistance for the introduction of Victoria Rebels in 2011. This blindsiding led to resistance for the introduction of, & eventual demise of, the ARS 2000-07, APC 2006 only, & ARC 2007 only, which were all intended to develop player depth & quality away from the major, established comps. Of course, not all these problems are attributable to Sydney University per se, but a like-minded "associated mindset". This blindsiding exists in Sydney University folk, who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge they are a non-district club in what was intended originally, & is for all intents & purposes, a district based club comp. Perception is reality, & plenty of rugby fans believe SU is getting an unfair advantage, not only today but for over a century. Something SU fans resist vehemently at every twist & turn. This blindsiding refuses to acknowledge that for Australian rugby to progress, we basically have to change our way of thinking in the past, & consider new structures. The game no longer belongs to Sydney University, or Randwick, or Gordon, or the eastern suburbs & north shore of Sydney, or the GPS, or the CAS. This perception (which is other sporting fans reality), must be broken & destroyed. A look at other major sports in Australia, the other footy codes, it is clear Aussies are geographically & generationally minded in their tribalism. It might not be fair, but that is the way Aussies think. Australian rugby has fallen behind the other 3 footy codes in just about every significant category. We have the least number of player participants. We have the least number of fans. Our media coverage & exposure might be sliding below football. We (Australian rugby) don't want to find out at some point in the near future that Australia can't cope with 4 football codes, because we're the most vulnerable, & the first to face the chop into oblivion. Elements of Australian rugby must change, to do things differently, more effectively & fairly. I trust this helps to clarify.....

It's all about Junior Development. Rugby will die if we don't put back into the bottom of the pyramid, and that is the Juniors. Look at last year's age group State Champs. Under 10s ..... No Uni ... Every other sydney district had 2 teams entered. Under 11s ..... No Uni team Under 12s ..... No Uni team ... Illawara, Hunter, ACT enter Under 13s .... Yes, 1 team .... all others as well as Central Coast, Central West enter Under 14s ..... No Uni team Under 15s ..... Yes 1 team Under 16s ..... Yes 1 team Under 17s ..... no Uni team Everybody else develops them from Under 10s to Under 17s and Uni makes a token effort with 3 teams across 7 age groups! NSWJRU even awarded Sydney Uni the rights to host the Under 16s/17s carnival giving them the opportunity to rake in even more money by hosting everyone else over the weekend. NSWJRU showed great initiative in sending the 14s to Orange. The Under 14s Carnival in Orange, was a fantastic Carnival in a great venue and was hosted superbly by the Emus. It was a great way to put something back into the local/ country rugby community. It can only be hoped that this is becomes a regular venue. Sydney Uni really only want to scrape the cream off the top. They don't want to put anything back into rugby and the angst out there is steadily growing.

Andrew the logical answer would be for Sydney Uni to revamp itself as a district based club, and, as someone has already pointed out, target getting potential players around Redfern. What would stop this from taking place? Is the funding from the SU Sports Union too valuable to give up? I dont believe that Uni is the source of all the problems facing the likes of Parra and Penrith...but rightly or wrongly, people have the perception that Uni is a bunch of snobs and these snobs have tentacles that control NSWRU and ARU, and this affects the game on a much broader level. Uni has natural advantages over the other clubs that cannot be argued away. And Uni's behaviour does not really help your argument, opposing the points system and being a staunch opponent of the ARC, being prime examples. Can I ask you is what you want a system where your club is so dominant the comp becomes a one horse race?

Sorry mistype meant to say 3. They had one starting in every grade.

They are very aware of their position in the Sydney Rugby community and are highly adept at tokenism strategies to deflect any criticism.