Chris Judd of Carlton clears the ball during the AFL Round 07 match between the St Kilda Saints and the Carlton Blues at Etihad Stadium, Melbourne. Slattery Images
This month’s edition of Inside Sport features an article which considers whether Carlton midfielder Chris Judd is the most complete player the game has ever seen.
The piece goes on to ponder whether Judd is not only the most complete, but also “the best player to strap on a boot…ever.”
Judd is an absolutely exceptional player – truly phenomenal. But is he the most complete player ever? Not on your life.
In fact, Judd is not even most complete player of his generation.
Calling Judd the most complete AFL player ever is akin to labeling Bradman the most complete cricketer ever. Bradman was an extraordinary batsman without peer, and by all reports an exceptional fieldsman, but throw him the ball and he wasn’t much chop.
The title of most complete cricketer ever surely must go to Sir Garfield Sobers, who could bat, field and bowl pace or spin to a very high standard.
By extension of this logic, the most complete AFL footballer must be someone who has mastered more than one position on the field, and be exceptional at almost all the different skill sets required of an AFL player.
If this is the case, the most complete AFL footballer is Adam Goodes of Sydney.
Need proof? Goodes has won two Brownlow medals as best and fairest in the league. The first in 2003 he won while playing in the ruck, the second in 2006 he won playing as a rover in the Sydney midfield. Goodes has therefore been deemed the best player in the league in two separate years playing very different positions demanding completely different subsets of skills.
It is akin to Andrew Johns having won a Dally M medal as halfback one year and then winning it again as a front rower a few years later. Ever seen that done?
Sadly, the only reason Goodes is not always mentioned in the same breath as Chris Judd or Gary Ablett is that he plays for Sydney, and the Victoria-centric AFL media has a tendency to forget about Goodes’ astounding feats North of the Murray.
His personality is such that this lack of acknowledgement as possibly the most complete AFL footballer in history doesn’t appear to bother him.
To consider now who is the best current AFL player, let’s look back to the summer game and continue the Bradman/Sobers comparison.
One can still justifiably label Bradman as the best cricketer ever by virtue of him being so far ahead of anyone before or since in one of the two basic disciplines of cricket – batting. It is possible to mount an argument that Judd is the best midfielder ever, but he is not miles ahead of the next-best midfielders, as Bradman is when compared with other batsmen.
To make a quantitative analysis, if Judd is rated a ten out of ten as a midfielder, Goodes would be no less than a nine. Put them both in the ruck, and Goodes still rates a nine, while Judd would be pretty ineffective, scoring a six at best.
So Judd may be the best midfielder ever, but there is not enough of a gap between him and the next best midfielders to consider him the best player ever on this basis alone.
Furthermore, the last season or two Goodes has played in the forward line for Sydney (his third positional change), a role he has performed very well. Having said this, Judd would also be a very dangerous forward if ever he was given the chance.
The most complete AFL player? Adam Goodes by the length of a footy field. Best player ever? The jury is still out.
Sky Blue
Guest
As far as the most complete AFL player goes....forget it if you think it's Ablett, Judd, Hodge, Goodes, Swan, Pendlebury, Brown, Nick or Jack Riewoldt, Franklin, Natainui or Adam, Joel or Scott Selwood... Forget it...because you are all WRONG... Think about it...the most complete player in the AFL...someone who can play anywhere on a ground and has the cred to back it up. Nobody comes anywhere near the eternal colossus that is MATTHEW PAVLICH All-Australian Full Back, All Australian Full Forward, All Australian Centre Half Forward, All Australian Half Forward Flank and twice named on the interchange during seasons spent predominantly in midfield... Back 9 (1 x All Australian) Midfield 9 (2 x All Australian) Ruck 5 Forward 10 = 33 (3 x All Australian) Most complete player in AFL history...it's this dude right here if you ask me...
Spider
Guest
Several well made points bayman. I think there is always a leaning in any list of "best of" or "most complete" to recent years. From memory, Mike Sheehan's list of the best of all time had 5 players from last 20 years in his top 10 (Ablett, Carey, dunstall, lockett, greg wililams) when he had a century of players to draw on. so there will always be a skew to recent players.
Bayman
Guest
The truth is we're never going to know the answer to this question. We all have a favourite player based on our observations. Judd is a great player but the best ever? I don't think so. He'd do very well to be in the top 50 of all time. If we assume, as I do, that most who respond to these articles is under 40 years of age then the knowledge of who is, or was, a great player is limited. The names mentioned are all from the last 20 years. I can tell you for a fact that there were some pretty good players 30 years ago, 40 years ago and 50 years ago. On the basis of that I'm prepared to believe there were some good'uns in the 20s and 30s. It's a romantic exercise but ultimately a waste of time. The answer can never be proved. As for me, the best player I ever saw was Barrie Robran - and by some margin. Until Bernie Quinlan and Leigh Matthews sandwiched him in a marking contest on the SCG and "did his knee" he was the gun. Not the same player after that but for seven years in the SANFL he was virtually unstoppable. Victorians tend to discount him because he wasn't interested in the VFL so they never really saw him. However, he played with and against many who played in Victoria and he was still the best of them all. His son played in an AFL premiership side and in over 100 AFL games and he was a fraction of the player the old man was. So I don't think the VFL would have held too many terrors for young Barrie - but he just didn't give a damn. I didn't see the great Jezza (who just might have been mentioned in the above back and forth) applaud too many opponents in the VFL but I did see him applaud Robran one day on the Adelaide Oval. An end of season "premiers" match, North Adelaide vs Carlton in 1972, Robran took a hanger standing on someone's shoulders and, while still standing on those shoulders, fired out a handball to Terry Von Bertouch running past who did not break stride in taking the ball. While most would be worried about the "coming down" bit, Robran was looking to move the ball on. Von Bertouch was gone before most players realised he had the ball. Jezza just stood and applauded. Incidentally, North won the match and were coached by the former Richmond player Mike Pattinson who, like me, reckons Robran was the best player he ever saw. Mind you, Judd's handy but given Adam Goodes is more in the Robran size I reckon a great game from Goodes is more valuable than a great game from Judd. Having said that, a great game from any great player is worth watching no matter how big he is or which team he plays for. One problem, of course, is the different style of game played today. Good players are allowed to run around like unregistered dogs. I'd hate to think how much damage an Ablett sr, or Skilton, or Stewart, or Flower, or Grieg, or Bilght, or Williams etc would do today given the room to move that is now available. I think we sometimes forget rather too easily how good some of the players of days gone by really were. That and the fact that most who comment today never actually saw these guys play so they cannot possibly know.
Michael Filosi
Roar Guru
Good point Mattyo, Gary Ablett Snr should come into reckoning when considering who is the most complete player. He did start his career on the wing with Hawthorn before being shifted into the forward line and his skills, strength and athleticism were all amazing. I feel that he would have been a serviceable ruckman as his strength would have allowed him to compete well in boundary throw-ins around the ground, and he is obviously a superb contested mark. I think in terms of this discussion, it is difficult to imagine how he would have gone if he had played in the backline. Your point is well made, Goodes hasn't had his best year so far in the forward line, but neither have the Swans which hasn't helped his cause. The last two weeks he has started to recapture some of his best form, and in the past couple of years I feel he has demonstrated he is a good to very good forward line player, but not exceptional in the way that Ablett Snr, Carey and Lockett all dominated in this forward line role.
Michael Filosi
Roar Guru
If you take this discussion to its (somewhat absurd) end point, if you had to field a football side which had 18 clones of the same player to play for your life, who would that player be? Without having given this idea a considerable amount of thought, I think that my preference would be.... 1. Adam Goodes 2. Matthew Pavlich 3. James Hird 4. Luke Hodge 5. Gary Ablett Snr The other player who I feel should come into discussions on the most "complete" player is Anthony Koutoufides from Carlton.
pH
Guest
Adam Goodes is the best all round player I've ever seen. Paul Kelly was best midfielder and Judd is in his mold. Carey was best forward. Jakovich best defender. Rehn at his best maybe best ruckman.
Mattyo
Guest
Based on your criteria of excelling across multiple positions, it has to be Goodes. Certainly amongst current players. But is Goodes that good a forward? What would you rate him out of ten? Couldn't be that much this year. I offer Gary Ablett Snr for consideration - 10 on the wing, 9 on the flank, 10 at full forward. I know I'm stretching it by naming two forward positions, but they're vastly different to play in terms of agility and strength. Sure he wasn't a ruckman or defender of note, but he has unparalleled versatility and class. His achievements are remarkable: AFL Team of the Century: 1996 Australian Football Hall of Fame: 2005 Geelong F.C. Team of the Century: 2001 Leigh Matthews Trophy as AFLPA Most Valuable Player: 1993 Norm Smith Medal: 1989 Coleman Medal: 1993, 1994, 1995 Carji Greeves Medal: 1984 All-Australian: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 (Captain) 11-time Victorian state team representative in State of Origin Etc etc etc He has to be a contender for most complete player of all time. He's only ignored in articles like these because of the scandal that has dogged his later life.
Stephen
Guest
Of today's players, Ablett. Hird in the past, because of his finish. Wanganeen was pretty good too. Buckley didn't kick enough goals.
jameswm
Guest
The answer is of course Aker. His career is complete(d) now...
Michael Filosi
Roar Guru
Good pick with Hird, I hadn't considered him.
Michael Filosi
Roar Guru
Thanks for your comments Justin. I stand by the quote you mention from the article. I think the transition from ruck rover to full forward would be relatively straight-forward for the game's elite midfielders when compared with playing in the ruck. That is why elite midfielders are often rested in the forward-pocket. Judd, I suspect, would be a 50-60 goal a year full forward if he was played there full time. Ablett probably similar. Their skill sets are more easily translated to full forward than if they were to take ball-ups and boundary throw ins around the ground and play in the ruck. Hence why I rate Goodes so highly. Playing in the ruck, Judd/Ablett/ruck-rover would obviously go well once the ball came to ground, but the league's elite ruckmen would exploit their lack of marking ability around the ground. Every opposition kick-in would be placed on the head of the opposition ruckman and, for all their skills, I can't see how most of the game's best midfielders could stop the opposition ruckman taking easy marks. Plus the opposition ruckman would just start belting the ball 30 metres upfield from all boundary throw ins (just like Sandilands does for Freo) if he was playing against a generic midfielder.
BomberFan
Guest
Why do RL fans feel so obligated to comment on Aussie rules issues, which they clearly have no interest or idea on the topic matter? Anyhow, James Hird would be my pick.
Justin
Roar Pro
"Goodes has therefore been deemed the best player in the league in two separate years playing very different positions demanding completely different subsets of skills. It is akin to Andrew Johns having won a Dally M medal as halfback one year and then winning it again as a front rower a few years later. Ever seen that done?" OK you are really stretching the truth on both counts here are'nt you? Goodes is a great athlete but to say the positions are foreign is a little odd. Its more of a strecth to be a ruck rover then become a full forward then a rover and then a ruckman. The ruckman is essentially only a ruckman at centre bounce and throw ins - they hardly need a completely different skills set. As of the Joey comparison League and Union have VERY specific skill sets, unlike AFL.
gazz
Roar Pro
NicNat.... amazing
bilbo
Guest
I don't know about complete, but Folau and Hunt are the two highest paid - which surely must illustrate their completeness, right? Are we talking about completeness on the field? Or off it? Because I'd have to say that two of Australia's highest paid athletes going to schools and telling kids to play a game that they know very little about and havent played at the top level would be a sign of complete marketing instinct, if nothing else.
Michael C
Guest
The 'utility' vs a more positional player is a bit like comparing Daley Thompson vs Usain Bolt. Is the 'utility/jack of all trades' a better or more 'complete' athlete?? if so, than AFL is probably the utility code of utility players in some respects, and I reckon Adam Goodes, with 2 brownlows and a flag and huge respect is about the most complete.
Michael C
Guest
Nick - you seem to miss the simple fact that in the Rugby codes, the tackler doesn't have to work quite so hard to find someone to tackle.......they come straight at them. The amount of work that Karmichael Hunt will have to do to be able to notch up the tackle stats will be a job in itself. btw - Andrew Swallow for North last week had 15 tackles - - just an astounding tally for an AFL player. And that's with a pretty tight definition of an 'effective' tackle. btw - in all cases Rugby to AFL, the tackling is technically different. You can't go below the knees, above the shoulder or in the back, and the fellow in possession has a different imperitive (i.e. to dispose of the ball) such that the tackler needs to be more aware of whether the tacklee has successfully disposed of the ball. Hopefully Hunt will make tackling a recognised feature of his game - - but, to transition straight in and suddenly be ripping out 15 tackles a game,.....that ain't going to happen. Consider this - that K.Hunt has found just playing VFL is a step up in fitness/running etc consider North Melb debutant last weekend, 20 year old Ben Speight from SA : “The speed is unbelievably different to VFL…it’s a lot quicker, .......You do all this extra training work on your body and you think ‘why am I doing all these extras?’ and then you get into the AFL game and you’re like ‘I now understand why I have to do all those extras’ because you’re cramping up and struggling. The difference is massive.” That's what still lies ahead for Karmichael Hunt. Good luck to him, I hope he can manage it.
Zac Zavos
Editor
Unless we want to turn this into a code-war piece, I suggest we leave the NRL out of the comments here and focus on the content of the article. Zac The Roar
M1tch
Roar Guru
did you really think the afl got Hunt for his AFL skills ;) lol mckenna has never seen him play RL, and he keeps going on how makes 20 tackles a game! haha
Nick
Guest
Just stirring you guys, personally Ablett Jnr is the complete player, accuracy, strength, speed, the only thing he lacks in is a bit of height BUT if he did go up against a taller player he makes a good job of spoiling or getting the contest to the ground.