How to resolve the lack of depth in Aussie rugby

I always thought that the ARC was a great idea, but not executed particularly well. The crowds were not strong, but the promotion of it wasn't great - here in Brisbane they stuck up billbaords but failed to do any grassroots marketing that I could see. Over time it would have developed and built - they blamed the Melbourne team for blowing budgets out the window - in that case like any business, leave them to it, if you spend too much no-one is going to bail you out. Soccer/football has done remarkably well in overcoming the old club issues by creating new teams - sure they have difficulties as a competition but it gives followers of that sport someone to support who as Bush points out in regard to club rugby, would not go along and support a rival club team, but a new team for their region/city is a different story. It requires a long term investment to grow the game and support the teams. Right now if a talented kid who can play rugby or league wants to try to be a pro footballer he obviously has a lot more opportunities in league because of the number of teams, U20 comp etc. Developing a new ARC would give these type of players more options and also give some pathways for players who might otherwise give it up but have a lot to offer to the game and to other younger players. Some of them might never make it to S14 level but they can still aspire to play at a higher level and who knows how many of them might shine when given the opportunity. Costs are the issue - travel being a big one, and then coaching etc. I may be wrong but at the time of the ARC closure there were figures bandied about of what some of the ARC coaches were getting paid and I found it unbelievably high - there needs to be reality involved but of course if you are not a professional coach already how can you give up the time for it. I'd like to see some ideas for how to handle the travel costs/time while making it realistic for the players/coaches etc involved - many of whom will not be full time professional players etc.

true Bush, some of the names and strips were woeful (some were outstanding too, Rebels for eg), but names and colours are mere details in the scheme of things... Katipo in on the money below, just call them West Sydney, Perth, Canberra, etc...

Or just call them 'Brisbane' rugby team, 'Gold Coast' rugby team, 'Sunshine Coast' rugby team. No need to prescribe cutesy nick names... supporters can confer a nickname naturally over time, if required.

I'd change a few names though Brett... Remember the Ballymore Tornados and the East Coast Aces, what the hell was that? Just call them the Brisbane Bandits and the Gold Coast Sharks and be done with it... Clearly defined cities with clearly defined mascots... Sorta...

The Sunshine Coast is definately a must area if this dream comp was to start tomorrow. It is a booming region that is growing very quickly (unlike the Gold Coast which has actually stopped growing compared to regions like Logan, Ipswich, Moreton Bay and Brisbane itself). They currently field a 'rep' side in Premier Division rugby here in Queensland, as well as a Premier Colts side. These sides are built on a solid foundation of eight 'preimer' senior clubs in the Maroochy-Noosa-Caloundra area, each club also fielding reserve sides and colt sides. In total, club rugby on the sunshine coast can boast over two thousand registered players. Factor in all the school based players (registered differently), the money in the area and the solid growth, they are crying out for a professional sporting team.

Katipo, definitely.. It's interesting, now, that after all the criticism I've seen on The Roar in the past about the ARC, more and more people are coming to realise that it was in fact a very good idea poorly executed. Sure the teams had no support to start with, but neither did the A-League teams - but the support would be growing by now. And who's to say it mightn't be somewhat self-sufficient by now, entering its fourth season? And that's before we even think about the obvious benefit to the players and the game itself. I'd bring it back in a heartbeat if it were up to me..

Rugby by and large is a cultural based sport(both codes). Signing RL players is not the answer(as has been proven). RL players are not brought up on the game , have no affiliation to it and struggle to play it any better than the players they have replaced(and are very expensive). Also unless you have a pack that can dominate or at least hold its own it doesn't matter how good your backs are. The ARU must concentrate on grass roots and develop the kids who are actually intersted in the game and committed to the cause.

In the short term the Wallabies need some big fast backs and the only place to get them is from league, I would also like to see the ARU take risk and trying recruit a number 8 or lock form league. But these would only be short term band aids, n the long term a National comp is needed. I think now with Melbourne and Perth S 15 teams, once both of the teams are more settled a national comp will be more viable, with canberra melbourne and perth acting as development squads for the S15 teams.

JON has alluded to the establishment of a U20's Championship come next season. I understand it from the perspective of falling into line with the IRB's U20's framework. However, for the betterment of Australian Rugby at least in the short term it wouldn't be in its best interest. A re-launch of the ARC or National Rugby Championship (NRC) would benefit the game far more than a Junior Championship. An 8 team championship surfice intially. The teams are pretty obvious in Sydney, Western Sydney, North Sydney, Brisbane, Sunshine Coast ( I would say Gold Coast but as stated they have a A-League licence, NRL team and soon to be AFL team. Considering the crowds they pull aren't great I would say the GC has or very soon reach saturation point) Melbourne, Canberra and Perth. Further plans could be put forth to enter new teams in stages. The ARU could greatly assist this by setting out framework for each new team by essentially stating who they will be from day one. Alongside that providing specific funds to each of these prospective teams to build their squads. IMO these propective squads would be South west Sydney ( Campbelltown Quins would be the ideal Club to focus attention on as there is a substantial NZ and PI populations in the area.) Illawarra, Hunter, Adelaide and at least another QLD squad. In the case of the prospective squads a Club of the likes of Campbelltown could become SW Syd Harlequins and use development funds to build a schools competition in the area to source talent. Enter each along set timelines but only if they achieve the goals set out in the framework. The ideal time to state these intentions would be this year. This would give each organisation time to build its squad and sort out its financial requirements.

The Bush, thanks for your thoughts - enlightening. Actually soccer was faced with the same club/region dilemma pre A league. I suspect you are right - regional rep teams is the way to go. This is also consistent with the representative structures in the two countries that regularly beat the Australian team: NZ's NPC and SA's Currie Cup. That should be the benchmark. Do i sense consensus amongst Roarers, that the strategic solution for Australian rugby, if it really aspires to be the number 1 country, is to concentrate on grass roots to increase participation levels and to start a professional national rugby championship?

I don't like all this talk of promoting only the 'top' clubs from any given competition. I play for Easts in Brisbane, and there is no way in hell I would go and watch GPS, Sunnybank or Uni play in a national competition. Nor would I advocate merging clubs. The only possible situation that would be accepted by the bulk of rugby fans would be a reformatted ARC, with a Brisbane rep team etc. I'm not sure how it works in Sydney, but up here in Brisbane the limited crowds that premiership clubs do get are based around the four lower grades, three colt grades, juniors and past players and friends watching. At Easts this can mean as many as five hundred people max against a traditional rival, far fewer against weak teams. For a team to eventually become professional and sustainable in Brisbane, you would need to attract a wide range of punters, from school kids (who don't play club rugby and would have no interest watching 'promoted' existing clubs), to current club players (again who will only support a new entity), through to any new potential fans, who again are unfamiliar with the traditions of the existing eight Brisbane clubs. An eight team comp would then consist of; Brisbane, Gold Coast/Sunshine Coast, Sydney, Western Sydney, Central Coast/Newcastle/Wollongong, Canberra, Perth, Melbourne. Even then I doubt the sustainability of this competition. The Gold Coast is a heartland city, but considering they will soon have an AFL team, and their lack of support for a football team, surely a new professional outfit playing in a '2nd division' league will attract no support. Ditto what happens with the Central Coast gets a League team, or the ability of Perth and Melbourne to support two professional rugby teams. We must face facts, without grass roots growth across all levels of Australia, the sport is nothing more than a minority sport (tragically).

It's the AFL that needs to be raided. Unfortunately they have unlimited cash!

JF your are spot on - It is bloody obvious Australia needs a NPC/Currie Cup equivalent. The ARU are only interested in the Wallaby & Super brand and are forgetting the tier below that - Australia (all states) requires a Currie Cup comp that commences after the Super 15 finishes with all test players being available to play. the ARU keeps pushing the "no money" argument but a detailed study & sponsorship plan should be its priority - Australia has the players the ARU just needs to increase playing time & pathway. NZ & SA both allow foreign players in their respective home comps & we can do the same. Each Aussie Super 15 side should be allocated a number of teams within a Aussie "Currie Cup" comp. This would increase players playing more hard rugby & improve our depth. Each Aussie Super 15 side have academies & the players within those academies need to be playing hard competive rugby against Super 15 & Test players. The payers are there - it is now up to the ARU. Elite schools are not the answer - you promote the game through your local clubs where tribalism exists, which can then be expanded into a "Currie Cup/NPC" competition throughout Australia. We tried it & it worked but we did not allow the brand to expand and for that termination decision we are now paying for it by the so called lack of player depth in improving our Wallaby brand.

Its old and we have been over this ground one million times... but the srating point is a successful domestic league... IMO follow footballs lead and get a top AFL manager in to show you how to develop and run a strong domestic league...

Simon is spot on pointing out the fact that, as much as we diehards love it, rugby is still a minority game with a 'significant' footprint in only two states. The playing numbers viz NZ are enlightening (it always makes me laugh when commentators talk about the 22 million of Oz vs the 3 mill or so of NZ!!) If RL and AFL ceased to exist we'd have some pretty handy talent available (not that I'd like to see that as I enjoy them also). But that ain't going to happen. Despite that I think we have got better talent than is being shown at the present. I don't want to pick on the new boy twins but really how many NZ Super 14 teams would the Faiingaas get a run on start for? Having won two world cups we obviously have the talent to rise above these limits - but it is frustrating seeing the lack of progress. Poor old Greg Smith got the flick because he lost about 5 games to the Kiwis! People criticize the private school system for only playing about 12 games a year. But for years the Wallabies were cotton wooled away from the club scene here - to Deans credit they are involved at club level much more now but in the absence of the APC the ARU must ensure the club scene gets a boost to generate retain interest in the game. Losing 9 successive games to the ABs (and playing them 4 times a year) isn't doing it!

The ARC had potential, for what reason they started with brand new teams. Should have used original Sydney based and brisbane teams with instant supporters. They also started the comp during world cup year with all the top players overseas. With the current administration I just can't see it being done right! Would like to see with over 1 million kiwis here, their kids start following oz teams (wishfull thinking I spose). Without Ozzie support, south Africa will always recieve larger dollar in super15 as NZ has lack of population. It's a never ending battle in my eyes.

i think aus wil beat s f ova there with bouns points nothing wrong with ur guys players i also think u mite beat us in aus with tht maori boy yet 2 come back. lts go back 2 round 2 super14 reds v crusders cooper v carter who won tht battle not carter. so i wont say much till we meet again go hard

In my opinion Super rugby should be a reduced format finals series for the best from each country (rather than a round robin tournament)...

Thanks GT75, indulge me for a moment - that's exactly what happened in NZ in the 1970's. Australia is only 40 years behind! Prior to 1976 there was no national comp in NZ. Regions selected rep teams and they played one another by invitation. It seemed inevitable there would be a national comp. Same as it seemed inevitable there would be a rugby world cup one day. So the NZRFU just got on with it. They allocated every rep team in to a division 1,2 or 3 (modeled on UK soccer actually).So a similar thing could be done in Australia without dramatically increasing costs, but vastly increasing the sponsorship values and spectator interest. All Australian rugby need do is decide: club comp or regional rep teams or state teams, then allocate the teams in to divisions, with promotion and relegation, and start playing. For example you could have a 14 team national comp with the best club teams in Australia (basically the Sydney premiership plus or minus a few clubs from other states - or let the clubs group in to regions. In NZ they called them sub-unions). Given the size of Australia it probably needs some sort of regional conference too though... anyway plenty of people have suggested it before me. It makes sense. I hope it has an inevitability about it?

I also believe that the super15 will one day be a first grade comp with three countries and hopefully Fiji, western Samoa, Tonga. Unfortunately Australia will suffer with lack of depth. I personally would encourage movement of kiwi and Ozzie players transfering in teams. Rabbitohs are littered with kiwis and islanders and still get reasonable support