What will Subbies rugby behold in season 2011?

FYI this Tim R is not the one at subbies.... I just asked him.....

Tim R, Was it a bit too much for you to absorb??? Bit to harsh??? Bit too complicated for you to process??? Well in regards to the harshness, you might be right, therefore, due to a recent change in heart and being personally challenged about my comments (thanks Camo) my reply will be considerably less aggressive than previous posts (or as you prefer to say "rants"). Apart from the sledges against Balmain and Epping (which have been resovled - again thanks Camo and cudos to you Nathan) - but I strongly encourage rivalry between the clubs, I believe that a lot of my points in regards to the administration of clubs both in subbies and shute sheild as previously stated are quite well authored and raised some good points. You sound like an administrator of rugby, especially a certain "Tim" at subbies, if so, sweet, if not, its just a bit of good reading. But judging on the fact that you have just selectively picked parts of my comments to suit your one sentence the "reply to end all replies", you probably will not read this posting, or absorb too much into it if you do. All I can do is present the information, failure to review the informantion and / or act accordingly (if applicable) is not my responsibility or problem. Disclaimer if you are an administrator - I am not writing on behalf of my club, I am just a rugby supporter just voicing my opinion. The administration of rugby in Australia is disgraceful (and I am talking the upper levels here, not grass roots who fund the massive saleries of precious administrators and some players). The general public think that the only level of rugby is Super Rugby. (This point has been well discussed previously, please read previous comments, but I continue)Whose fault is that - the administrators! There is no media or marketing for the brand of club rugby (please a 1 hour radio show on triple m doesn't cut it). As per previous comments (just shows you did not read everything), how is it that Shute Shield rugby in regards to crowds is generally on the decline and has been for years. Dont get me wrong, ABC does a great job in coverage and they are helped by social media but seriously the crowds are deplorable. There is generally NO support for club rugby.The ARU had millions of $ after Australia hosted the RWC and what has been done..... sweet bugger all, except previously spend millions on securing league players (which would have been a kick in the balls for some you up-start who did everything right - parents paid a phenomenal amount of money to get them into a rugby school, played junior rugby, played colts and looking at firsts in Shute Shield and a serious contender to play for the some form of representative rugby and then whooska, cop that, the ARU will pay in excess of $500K p/a to get some stiff to do NOTHING and give nothing back - except have contracts torn up - and then we wonder why up and coming players head off overseas for contracts). Please dont get me wrong, I am sure that administering a competition like Shute Shield and subbies with limited staff is quite difficult and I am sure that the staff in their bust their hump every day. Say this was not a RWC year and the tri-nations would almost be over, if you were not a massive rugby fan (knowing the various competitions and clubs) if you were an average Joe Schmoe sports fan wanting to take the kids out for the day, would he know know that there are numerous Super Rugby players turning out this Saturday in various club matches around Sydney in what can only be described as a relaxed day at the rugby with a few cold beveridges and a bbq.... chances are NO! If I was the advertising / media manager for the ARU and NSWRU I would be filthy that you have to turn approximately pages into the Daily Telegraph sport section to get even a sniff of rugby or at least 8 pages into any fairfax publication to get the same amount. Why does the TV media not even give to hoots about Shute Shield rugby, this is where the Super Rugby players are drawn from!!!!!! Gone are the days of highlights and scores of shute shield in the sports section of the evening news. Again no disrespect to the ABC, I love watching the ABC coverage of Shute Shield, they do a great job. Previous decisions to take the Shute Shield G/F to the SFS - disgraceful! A huge crowd of 7,000 makes the game look like a joke. You would probably get more at a First Division Subbies match than a Shute Shield game. The past two seasons at Concord have been great - sensational atmosphere and hopefully this year will be even better and I only hope the crowds grow and rugby is promoted. Payment of players in subbies / shute shield - just read my comments earlier you would see that this was a well explained point, no need to re-hash. Subbies / referees administration - well lets just say, a more realistic approach to the game and the people who play and pay their fees and subbies would probably have less work to do on a wednesday night. First and foremost, I understand referees get very little, if any financial benefits and they are critical for a game to occur but seriously, these guys think that they are on TV. I am surprised that their poor people management and lack of communication skills have not resulted in more fights on and off the field. Rest assured the following will happen sooner rather than later, you will get some referee with their head so far up themselves, they will so poorly manage a game that a massive "all in" will result and someone will get seriously injuried, and when I say seriously injured, I am talking about permanent disabilities or worse. And you know what will be said by the administrators NSWRU / ARU in regards to the ref who had a woeful game and more than likely caused the incident "Oh the referee in question has been relegated to a lower division next week for re-adjustment". That's great news for the player who has been king hit, sitting in hospital with HUGE injuries, with bills to pay and about to loose their job because they can no-longer work all because of poor people management. But a club screws up or a player screws up and thats it, fines, suspensions, loss of competition points and club points. I feel for a player who has been sent and or sighted and has to turn up to a judiciary hearing if they are going to defend themselves, they must complete a stat dec which is a legal document and sit before a panel who have already been briefed in a non-legally binding report, the player puts their balls on the line by completing a stat dec all to be found guilty and generally suspended. (Before you go any further Tim, I have only been there once and it was not for a violent offence). Classic example of disgraceful arrogance on the field - a referee who had without a doubt one of the worst games ever (refused to communicate with the captain and had advised a team he had a preconceived idea of how they play and refereed accordingly) in the 79th minute of the match decides to issue a yellow card so he can get "control" of the match and then when advised his decision was poor sent the player. Seriously - in the 79th minute you have got to be joking. So Tim, you have already taken up far too much of my time on a Friday, some of us have to work tomorrow. Whilst the administrators of clubs at grass-root level (shute shield included) are generally great people and go a fantastic job and are so passionate about rugby and want to see the game expand, the people who run the show at the upper levels generally need to have a good, hard look at themselves and how they do their job and if you are one of them Tim, sorry if the truth hurts. See Camo and Nathan, I was not too aggressive and there was no insulting language in any of my post. Good luck to all subbies teams in the semi-finals. Kind regards Matt M

I noticed the Hunters Hill/Waratah/ All black was driving a very nice new Volvp which I can assure you did not come from the coffers of Hunters Hill. It sported a sticker from the waratahs and I think was a loaner from a Waratah sponsor.

Matt M, your comments are ill informed rants, that nobody wants to read.

What about the Car that Hunter Hill gave him Super? Does that count as paying a broken down 1 Test All Black?

Hi Nathan, Good to hear from you - hope that you are well. What has been doing? actually I dont think that this is a social forum, but anyway......... I am actually laughing quite a lot..... what gave it away????????? I am quite interested to know how you worked it out. Was my it stellar wrtting style displaying quick wit, I think that I am quite a good writer..... but then again, I could be wrong. Congratulations on coaching the first grade team. You are correct, I should not tar the whole club with the same foul tasting brush because of one person (I am pretty sure we are talking about the same person). There are some really good blokes at Epping and there have been some great games between Valley and Epping over the years. I will however say this, unfortunately 1 person can have a serious impact on what a club is all about and the character of a club can be determined by the actions of 1 person. I will admit that Valley over the years have had our token c*&khead and we have tried to weed them out. We are all about promoting rugby in a league dominated area (Windsor Wolves being in the NSW Cup or whatever it is does not help our cause), but our juniors are coming along nicely. In regards to the finals, I cannot remember the exact year, but lets just say it was long enough ago that I was still playing halfback then. It was a pretty strong rumour, but then again, I could be wrong. I will discuss more when you come out to mcquade. A ruptured achilles tendon is not the best thing, the physio and surgeon said definately this year is gone and I should be OK for next year, but I am not too sure whether I will be playing next year - at this stage, I probably wont be, I cannot really afford to do an injury like this again - missed too much work. But it just highlights to all the subbies players the importance of paying their fees prior to season start - will get most of the money back but was initially out of pocket over $3,000 We prodigy - I mean Nathan, I will continue to sledge, but it looks as tough at this stage, you have the runs on the board for the first round, work roster permitting, I will ensure that I get out to McQuade next round and have a beer at the richmond club at speeches. On a final note - admit it, we all love to hate Balmain!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk soon Matt M (Crofty)

Crofty, crofty, crofty..... You know who I am.... My parents gave me the name Nathan Harvey.... I have been around the club for years - I'll make sure I grab a beer with you when we make the trek out to McQuade Park later this year. Couldnt agree with you more on the fact that Subbies clubs should not pay their players, but that would be an ideal world.... We had little choice but to suck it up against Balmain..... And like I said, it was a great day of rugby and something that my boys will be able to tell their grandkids about someday. We toyed with the idea of trying to look at ways to subsidise players, but decided against it for that very reason. How do you tell the bloke that rocks up for fourth grade, plays, backs up for threes and then does a full day of duties that he is less valuable to the club than some showpony who only plays first grade and doesnt lift a finger? I am currently coaching our first grade team and I can tell you that I still pay my full subs. I was given a pre-paid phone earlier in the year, but found it difficult managing two phones and went back to using my personla phone. In my opinion, a subbies club is the heart and soul of rugby. We all do it for love and it isnt about the money. Yeah Crofty, I heard about your injury talking to Dan Nieass. I'm sure it sucks, I have heard a difficult injury to get over. I am still intrigued to find out about the finals match that you referenced. I am unaware of any situation where a sponsor has refereed the club at that level. Please provide more details. Factual hate towards Epping intrigues me..... surely the whole club isn't being tarred by the feather of one certain individual (and Im pretty sure I know who you are referencing)....

For what it's worth, I agree that I don't think clubs should pay players (remember Subbies is an Amateur comp!!!). I'm even against letting players play for free (unless they really are unemployed)... it just creates problems, and doesn't necessarily help with culture. But here's the rub, lots of people do. Infact we've even had people rocking up to play Halligan's thinking they should be paid to play. WTF? My personal view is that even coaches should have to pay subs (and have played at very successful clubs where that is the case). Why? Because it just stops the whole "but I do so much, so I shouldn't have to pay", and it means it is a hell of a lot easier to get coaches to collect subs when they've paid themselves. But I know clubs that do pay their coaches, and on some levels I agree with this. 1) because it is incredibly hard to find coaches these days. 2) In the modern era they incur potentially huge costs (eg texting / ringing around) and 3) because you are buying an expectation (ie that they are going to be there each week, getting there early setting up / packing up etc).

Written pm 01/06/2011 Prodigy, dear Prodigy, Hook, line and sinker - I knew that you would not be able to control yourself. I think that I have been quite open and exceptionally objective - just putting in enough to see what happens – it is just like fishing, you have just been too lazy to do a bit of research and use your grey matter a bit (please see below for further comment). I have at least put my name and first letter of my surname to at least identify myself - and don't hide behind "prodigy" from a club of what, 100+ players. So please – let us not go down this path. For all you know, we have more than likely had a beer or two over the years if you have been with the club for as long as you claim. But for all I know - you could be from another club altogether and just making up fibs. I think that with a bit of deductive research you would be able to limit down which club I play for, I even hinted to Hack from Waverly that I provided some really positive feedback to their committee about the days rugby they put on and sensational speeches back at the bowls club. I have been associated with my club - Hawkesbury Valley, for over 13 years and loved every minute of it. I am basing most of my comments on fact and if you read through my comments carefully, where it could not be confirmed, I put the word "allegedly". Prodigy, if you cannot tell the difference between Epping and Balmain I cannot help you. Balmain is unfortunate enough to fit in the category of both - you work it out, I have pretty much spelt things out. Read into it what you will, a lot of this was said with tongue in cheek and just a stir – so if you take offence, there is not too much I can do. It is a bit of light hearted humour. But please, let me know if you are offended and I might just change the tone a little bit, but right now, I am having a bit of fun......and deep down, I reckon you are as well. In regards to payment of players - subbies is park footy - I have played at both levels (premier rugby and subbies) and just quietly, had more of a blast and developed friendships over the years from players at various clubs at subbies (including people from Epping – not so much Balmain). Money just causes problems. Yes MOST clubs in premier rugby pay their players, and some clubs in subbies do, but can you please show me where clubs have benefited from paying their players and how it has actively promoted rugby. At the highest level of rugby in Australia, since 1995 when the game became professional, has the game of rugby in Australia grown, has it developed, I would actually say it has done the opposite. I remember going to concord oval in the early 90's to watch the waratahs and grand finals and also Shute Shield rugby and the ground was PACKED (standing room only on the hill). Turn up to a Shute Shield game now and I would say that you would more than likely get more spectators at a Subbies match than a Shute Shield match – is it just me or is there something seriously wrong with this picture. Has the ARU developed the game to where it should be? No. We are shifting from the sledging onto serious issues, but consider this a lesson. Since the world cup in 2003 where has the money gone - grassroots rugby??? No - it has gone to over priced under achieving league players and blown out salaries to princesses who solely rely on their reputation. How can you develop a game when you spend millions on league players who provide nothing to the game both on and off the field? How can you have a major media outlet being the major provider of funds to the game (television rights), yet their print media will not put anything in about rugby until about 13 pages in from the sports section. You, me and any other rugby player would give their right nut to at least have the chance to play at that level. Yes the game has advanced, (don’t get me wrong, I like the way that the Rebels (only just) and Force play) but has it really developed to the stage where it should be. Look at a country like Australia and compare to NZ and how their competition runs – you watch their club rugby and they get massive crowds. Premier rugby - Parramatta - once a strong club has lost its club house and been taken over from Parra leagues and is lucky to still be in the comp. Penrith - enough said (and before you go any further, no I did not play for either of these clubs). I would pretty much bet body parts from the information that I have received (pretty reliable) which indicates that the almighty Randwick (actually they are rightly more hated than Balmain - you want to see a terribly arrogant crowd, head to Coogee Oval) do not pay any of their players, sure they might line up work and employment opportunities for their players, but not one cent is handed over to players, they play there because they want to, players travel to play there, because they know they are going to be playing at one of the best clubs in Sydney. Subbies - well the disaster list is endless when you start paying players - Drummoyne - had their own clubhouse on Victoria Road (owned, did not owe one cent) starting paying players big $ to come and play there and guess what happened, they were cleaned out of money and had to sell prime real estate and have not recovered or re-joined premier rugby as a result. I have seen clubs fall apart when money is involved. People are playing for the club for the wrong reasons. It causes a considerable amount of in-house fighting for no results. Brothers - over the past 5 years they have been paying some players and coaching staff (rumoured/allegedly up to the value of $10,000 per season!!!!!!!!!) and where has it got them - 4th Division! (no offence to 4th division clubs – have played in this comp and it is a tough comp). Sure Brothers are winning First grade, but I am hearing there is some serious in-fighting with the 4 new players (former Australian 7's players) and Former Gordon First Grade players getting $400 per game - over $7,000 for 1 season of rugby. Is it really worth it, sure you might win the first grade premiership but it all counts for nothing if it is not a club effort. Would you risk destroying a club? Back onto the sledging, good on Epping for taking the view that you stated, and just quietly, I would have loved the opportunity to play in that match against two current wallabies, but really, it is park footy. Full stop, no ifs, no buts. Park Footy pure and simple. There is a considerable difference between 1st and 3rd division subbies and an even more considerable difference between subbies and premier rugby. It just does not sit right......... Written 07/06/2011 Prodigy, the above was written on the 1st, but I have been very busy going to the physio and surgeon and all the fun stuff, I was thrilled to read your post yesterday, good detective work. You little super sleuth...... I am impressed........... now the fun part, who are you? (Please don’t be Bevo........ it means I have to at least pay you some credit and I really don’t want to) And before you start the sledging between Valley and Epping and why I have not played Epping this season – I ruptured my Achilles tendon in round 3, only 7 minutes into the match – not the best injury and am out for the season. Hence the over dedication to the sledging, I have only just come off crutches today. Look forward to your reply.

crofty......

I didn't see it as Balmain flucking over Epping. It was what 35mins in a game? I saw it as a great thing for everyone. It raises the profile of Subbies Rugby. Raises the profile of Balmain etc... who wouldn't want the opportunity to line up against a Wallaby? As I said in my initial post, the Wallabies thing could go either way if not managed well. They seem to be doing the right thing from my perspective. What it did show was what is possible for other Subbies Clubs, as evidenced by Sos Anesi lining up for Hunters Hill this year (we were trying to line him up for Waverley last year - ho hum). Matt M is deliberately being objectionable, so I wouldn't worry about his comments. Re Culture off the field, they're probably better than Waverley in that regard (we're good at home, but geeze we suck away).

Matt M, Appreciate your comments and love the way you won't disclose who you play for or the like. It is all well and good to make these comments behind the wall of anonymity, but if that's the way that you do things. Whether or not you are actually basing your argument on fact or fiction doesn't really bother me. But I would like to find out whether we are the " bunch of rich people want-to-be’s and the other is from a crime riddled part of Sydney yet want people to believe that have the rugby skill and financial assets should be considered a part of Double Bay or any other snobby part of Sydney"? Also your comment about the referee/sponsor in the finals series may be off the mark (unless of course we are talking about a finals series before I started with the club in 1999). Rather than ramble on it, why not be more specific? What year? Grade? Opposition? Hack, I'm with you. While Epping & Balmain have a heated rivalry on the field, we get along alright off the field. Admittedly they have a lot of work to do to build their culture off-field and their relationships with other clubs, but there are definitely elements within the club who are striving towards it, considering they are still a young club. In regards to the Wallabies at Balmain, our guys saw it as a great experience, rather than Balmain f**king us over. It was a great day at Blackmore Park and we are full of praise for Balmain for the initiative shown (cash or no cash). In saying this, so what if they did fork out some money for a couple of players, Subbies clubs throughout the divisions are doing it, and it is not just restricted to Division 1 and 2. It might be time for you to get a bit more specific..... it is all well and good to rock the boat, but are you willing to fall out and go through with it? Your turn.

My Dearest Brother Hack (I presume you are a male - forgive the assumption if I am incorrect), stay tuned for some more sledging against Epping and Balmain. I will keep my eyes on the field and my ears to the ground - you never know what you see or hear. I look forward to some entertainment from your end throughout the season. In my personal opinion, I am not sure too many people would dislike Waverly - except for the gale force winds that frequent the field which make playing rugby interesting. Therefore, we won’t bother on rumours of hate against Waverly, let’s concentrate of factual hate against Epping and Balmain. There are countless reasons why people dislike Balmain and Epping, I could probably write a thesis on the two clubs and why they are hated and it would more than likely receive honours (at last a high distinction) at Uni in the field of "How clubs from two socio-economic areas of metropolitan Sydney behave well and truely above their pay level - one are a bunch of rich people want-to-be's and the other is from a crime riddled part of Sydney yet want people to believe that have the rugby skill and financial assets should be considered a part of Double Bay or any other snobby part of Sydney" - no disrespect to Waverly (love your work). There are the countless displays of disgusting sportsman like behaviour from Balmain with the abuse towards the opposition and match officials enough to make an inmate serving life blush. The lack of hospitality extended towards visiting teams. And the woeful turn up to speeches. The only time they turn up to speeches is when they win, anything less than a win and you will only get 5 blokes (1 from each grade) - actually, I reckon they get more friends and family of players than actual players. The fact that they get two current wallabies to play for them when they are already guaranteed a spot in the finals, positions 3 & 4 are being closely contested by 4 other clubs just does not sit right. In my line of work, if it doesn't look right, smell right or feel right - IT PROBABLY ISN'T RIGHT. Don’t get me wrong, good on Epping for having a good solid crack, but if I was them I would be very annoyed. Epping, well as mentioned, they have improved. They displayed poor form when they had a referee in a finals series who it was alleged was a sponsor of the club (guess who won). I think that they still have a particular player/coach who just carries on like a tool throughout all grades and just wrecks the day. He makes the day not enjoyable. I am sure that there are other clubs and players within these clubs, but these two sick out like swollen dogs balls. I miss Brothers and Merrylands - they were good social clubs and you knew you had played rugby. In saying this, BRING BACK SOUTH SYDNEY NEW ZEALAND!!!!! Now I am showing my age. I look forward to some feedback brother Hack. Alright Camo (you are still an alright bloke Camo) and Prodigy you can try and stick up for your hated clubs, but it still won’t change my mind.

No dramas, I'm just stirring too (with the comment about not growing up from school). I'm interested to hear why people dislike Balmain & Epping. Not to dredge up anything messy, but because I've never seen any problems of any consequence. Re people hating Waverley. I've got no idea if people do or don't. I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did, especially after a few things the last two seasons (which thankfully has been rectified this year).

Hack, I think you slightly misunderstand me, don’t worry, I have grown up from school. I was just stating a sentiment felt by most clubs in different divisions. If you asked most clubs which they "hated/disliked" - I just prefer "hated with a passion" because it just shows the rivalry. However, I just don’t take too kindly to people that replace confidence with arrogance and play outside the spirit of the game. I do not understand why people would "hate" Waverly, each time I have played them, I have found the matches played in good spirit and the speeches played in better spirit. So much so, I actually provided positive feedback to the club committee. BOBS - well they are certainly an interesting club, I remember years ago, they were asking all clubs for support to remain in their division (after years of being absolutely pumped) and when those clubs who showed support requested the same, what did they do, they screwed them over and failed to show support. Hack - I am not out to upset people - just to stir, sit back and enjoy, have a laugh and have a beer with players from these clubs. it’s just that I am on annual leave and saw that there had been a few comments. Don’t worry, I know when to put an end to shenanigans. You are right, there are absolute knobs in each club and over time these people will be weeded out. I know that Camo (actually I have met and played against Camo - not a bad bloke - better than that "Pinno" knob) and Prodigy are absolutely itching to know which club I am from, but for now - I might just let them keep on guessing - too much fun. Bearing in mind there has been some substantial changes in clubs in various divisions over the seasons and both clubs have developed an intense "disliking" by a lot of clubs in all divisions. Till next time. Love your work - "talk soon" Matt M

Actually just looked at my first comment... pretty much said the same thing.

BOBs... Bad experiences at an administrative level, in the sense they try to get one up at the expense at every other club. Most clubs will do whatever they can to help each other out. You know the saying "a rising tide lifts all boats"... Another saying "what goes around, comes around"... Don't get me wrong, BOBs were helpful, but they'd also happily dig the boot in when given the opportunity.

Which club do you detest Hack?

Matt M, your top four predictions are not that out... just Waverley in and HV out... That said, Waverley has a very tough draw, having to play Petersham and Blue Mountains three times this season, so unless it picks up it's game in coming rounds, it will come right down to the wire if it is going to make the finals. Epping and Balmain the most hated clubs? Really? Why? Hated clubs? Sounds like you haven't grown up from school. I find it hard pressed to hate many clubs (but I'm Waverley, so maybe everyone just hates us... ;)) Seriously there is only 1 club out there that I dislike. Hate no. Dislike yes (alot). Most clubs play in the spirit from the top down to the bottom. There will always be pricks out there (in every club - Waverley certainly has them), hopefully with time those elements move on.

Camo & Prodigy, Prodigy, you are wrong - I am not from brothers and you are ill-informed and fail to keep up with things - just do reaearch on other websites and chat to other clubs (or does your committee fail to communicate). however, it would have been good to keep them in the comp. At least they were a good social club and could enjoy a drink with them. They were not pretenders or stiffs on an off the field. You could play good hard footy and not worry about coaches being suspended due to abusing the opposition teams and officials (that one is for you camo). I am just here to stir and keep things interesting - so dont take it personally. It is not too hard to have a good time at Dick's especially when so few of Balmain club turn up and you dominate their own pub. I will say this, Epping have turned the corner in the past few seasons with post match functions - but Epping is still the second most hated club in 3rd division subbies - only behind Balmain. I did enjoy going to the Epping Club - rather classy except for a few putrid grubs (but I suppose each club has their own pests - it is just that some are more vocal than others). I will say this - may predictions of the top 4 seem to be way out....... bring on the second half of the seasson. Will be some interest rugby ahead..........