Entering a brave new world for NRL fans

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    I would like you to think back for a moment. How old were you on March 31st, 1995? For that was the last day that rugby league in this country enjoyed freedom. We haven’t had it since.

    After sending the ARL broke in courtroom battles and forcing many rugby league sides to the wall, News Ltd got what it wanted – cheap rugby league content on its pay TV network and ownership of the NRL.

    There are league fans today who have never seen a ‘free’ rugby league, they cannot even imagine it.

    1995 was also significant for the AFL. After recommendations from the Crawford Report the AFL Commission gained complete freedom and independence, and the last two AFL broadcast deals have shown what a free Independent Commission can achieve.

    Under News Ltd ownership rugby league simply treads water while News Ltd allows rugby league, the number one sport on its pay TV network, to be undersold for its own benefit.

    The joint leadership of a self interested global media corporation and the two archaic self interested state bodies has been of tremendous detriment to the growth of the game.

    The wonderful news for rugby league fans is this will not last forever. You will soon see a new rugby league, one with even more potential than the old pre-1995 rugby league that News Ltd coveted so much. Rugby league will finally win back its freedom through the ARL Commission.

    The question is, what can an independent commission do for rugby league when negotiating later this year with potentially three FTA Networks, Foxtel, and Telstra?

    They can negotiate with networks Nine and Ten, who have saved their reserves by not making a serious bid on AFL, and also industry leading Seven, who did not pay more for AFL now that Seven/Ten did five years ago.

    They can negotiate with Foxtel where they are the number one rating sport and crucial to Foxtel’s survival, and to the new player Telstra, who are already the major sponsor of the NRL.

    Many AFL fans will scoff at the suggestion that the NRL could sign a TV deal equal to or greater that the AFL. They either don’t remember a pre 1995 rugby league, or in the days before the internet knew little of it.

    But think about this for a moment. How much revenue would the AFL Commission have gained in their latest broadcasting rights agreement if they had been selling the sport that rated number one on Foxtel, had the highest accumulative TV figures in the country, and had a regular season, final series, State of Origin, Internationals, National Youth Competition, and the Indigenous All Star game to sell?

    Would they have got more than $1.2 billion?

    If the much anticipated ARL Commission comes to fruition in the coming months rugby league fans will need to learn a long forgotten skill.

    How to think big. Really big.

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    The Crowd Says (73)

    • April 30th 2011 @ 7:53am
      Al from ctown said | April 30th 2011 @ 7:53am | ! Report

      Nicely put Paul j…. However it’s a matter of time before the supporters of that chicken chasing game think up some crap out of pure jealousy to post on here… Good luck guys… We all know the nrl is just getting started.. Lol

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      • April 30th 2011 @ 2:26pm
        GoGWS said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:26pm | ! Report

        Al – I like the chicken chasing line…I genuinely like it… it makes a lot more sense than the meaningless ‘aerial ping pong’ insult of which RL tragics seem so fond…

        Let’s deal with the false claim that the NRL has “the highest accumulated TV figures in the country”. Let’s deal with it methodically.

        When did the falsehood first appear in the RL media? Who is the source of this lie? Enter Roy Masters. In an article for smh on 21 Dec 2009 Masters makes the following claim – “While officials squabble and threaten to divide rugby league, the fans have delivered an early Christmas present: TV ratings have eclipsed the AFL nationally for the first time.” And ever since RL have repeated the lie to each other, and to RL fans, and they have started to believe the lie.

        Few things to note about Roy’s lie:

        1. The claim is that the NRL passed the ALF in the 2009 season for the FIRST time – so Masters concedes that the AFL was always ahead in ALL prior seasons. So at most all we are talking about is two seasons where the NRL has lead the AFL is 2009 and 2010 (as even this is a lie).

        2. Shortly after the 21 Dec 2009 article by Masters the smh published a correction (it was within a week) in which it conceded that the data used for the Masters article was incorrect. Rather than acknowledge his error Masters went about repeating his lie, and other clueless RL journos have kept right on repeating it ever since.

        3. Roy Masters on the ABC on 28 April 2011 – “In terms of pay TV, it [NRL] has beaten AFL. In terms of the top 100 programs, together with the fact that it’s neck and neck with the AFL on overall cumulative audience figures”. Masters referring to ‘neck and neck’ is code for ‘the AFL leads the NRL’- if the NRL was ahead we’d hear Roy screaming it from the rooftops, as he did in 2009. The AFL leads the NRL – Roy knows this but can’t bring himself to say it

        4. Finally, the 2009 season was a year where the Storm dominated the NRL and pulled in much larger viewing figures from Melbourne than can be expected in any other typical year. So even if the NRL beat the AFL in 2009, which was a lie anyway, it’s not likely to be repeated.

        5. The NRL has NEVER claimed to have the largest cumulative national TV audience. The claim is frequent;y made by RL journos/bloggers but never by the NRL itself. In contrast the AFL has regularly (annually) asserted that it has the lead.

        Roy’s reminds me a bit of George Bush strenuously insisting there are WMDs in Iraq – Bush can say it until he is blue in the face yet the weapons just aren’t there. Likewise, Masters & Co can keep insisting/implying that the NRL has the trump hand in terms of TV audience but its just untrue, and will be shown to be untrue in time. More humble pie headed Masters way.

        • April 30th 2011 @ 2:44pm
          Paul J said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:44pm | ! Report

          “the highest accumulated TV figures in the country”.

          This is not just for the NRL but all rugby league content, including SOO and Internationals.

          To my knowledge there has been no correction made from 2010 where rugby league was about 4 million ahead, it would have been 7 million ahead if not for the AFL GF replay. And this with no NRL games before midnight in the southern states which will soon change.

          It is neck and neck but the gap is slowly widening in rugby leagues favour over the last few years.

          Anyways, the point is that rugby league ratings across all of its content is looking great coming into their next negotiations, if they ever get the commission up and running.

          • April 30th 2011 @ 2:52pm
            GoGWS said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:52pm | ! Report


            point to a statement from Gallop or anyone form the NRL claiming to have the highest national audience. You won’t find one – they don’t make the claim because it’s untrue. Simple. The nonsense falsehood about RL have some sort of lead was dreamt up by Masters and mindlessly picked up and repeated by RL journos. It’s utter nonsense and we are about to see that in the relative market values of the AFL deal verses the NRL deal.

            • April 30th 2011 @ 3:03pm
              Paul J said | April 30th 2011 @ 3:03pm | ! Report

              I cannot remember a statement from Gallop and the NRL – or – Andrew D and the AFL claiming a highest national audience.

              Nor can I remember the AFL media claiming the AFL had a higher national audience or that Roy Masters was incorrect quoting from an independent company that rugby league had a higher audience.

              By the way, I’m not attacking the AFL by suggesting that under a commission the NRL can negotiate a massive broadcast deal for 2013. The AFL Commission do an excellent job, which is why most rugby league fans seem desperate for rugby league to get a commission as well.

              • April 30th 2011 @ 3:45pm
                GoGWS said | April 30th 2011 @ 3:45pm | ! Report

                the problem is Paul, people like Masters have spent the last year or so relentlessly concocting a BS story about the AFL v NRL rights. The first major limb of that story is that the AFL got very lucky and that their rights were massively overvalued last time – Kerry Packer’s death bed gift etc. And Masters frequently quoted anonymous media sources providing pessimistic assessment of the AFL’s value. Well what happened to all of that hot air – it was all garbage. Anyone with half a brain could se it but many RL people seemed to be sucked in by it and some (like oikee) seem to have their ill-founded illusions shattered. The AFL rights were and still are the jewel in the crown of Australian sports – like it or not.

                Moving to the second limb of Master’s BS story which is that the AFL and NRL broadcast rights are worth about the same. The second limb of Roy’s story is just as false as the first limb – the AFL and NRL rights are not equivalent in value, not then and not now. Roy can hang his hat on the IC or any other number of developments, and he will bore us all with his ridiculous little theories, but it’s going to make no difference. The real reasons the AFL gets more money for its broadcast deals is obvious – very obvious…and I despair a little I guess the Masters mantra seems to find traction.

                Anyway not long to go before this is a non-issue even for teh most deluded RL fan – in a year or so it’ll be done and arguing whether the NRL should the same as the AFL will be irrelevant. And then once the deal has been done we’ll shift gears – Masters and other RL journos will once again be harping on about how RL was robbed. Whatever they’ll do is not look at the facts – they’ll just keep the lies and conspiracy theories going. Gallop tried to explain the gap the last time and was shouted don. There are legitimate reasons why the AFL gets a lot more – Gallop has already explained this publicly but nobody listened. the exact same reasons apply again for the latest deal – and in fact the landscape has changed in favour of the AFL with more broadcast content (GWS/GC giving an extra game).

              • April 30th 2011 @ 4:43pm
                Crosscoder said | April 30th 2011 @ 4:43pm | ! Report

                Paul agree.

                Now we may well have the opposite situation happening.Leckie with a cashed up Tv station,is going(he stated so) to bid for rugby league .He will no doubt up the ante ,so if 7 can’t get them,then the other two will have to pay overs.He coverts the Origin series.He is aware ch9 wants desperately the NRL , now they only have the opportunity for scraps from the AFL and of course ch10 ,with money in the kitty.
                3 FTA stations wanting a slice of the action,Foxtel,and no doubt Telstra for online and mobile.
                In any auction 3 bidding,is better than 2,is better than 1.

                I find it amusing that poor old Roy Masters cops the blame for everything except global warming.Might I suggest that a fair smattering of sport journos on News Ltd print and electronic,and in Fairfax ones,continually throw up that the NRL rights should grow massively this time ,and in fact more than a few suggesting $1b is attainable.As did Daniel Lane in the sun Herald 6/2/11 is one.”when it comes to Tv ratings including all the markets in australia,the NRL is in a league of its own.
                Anycase what is the advantage of News journos pushing up the price,for the very [product one of their companies will be bidding on “Foxtel.Unless of course they realise its true worth.
                As far as Tv ratings go,the usual knockers should take a peek at the NRL state of the game report for 2010.
                eg Rugby league outperformed all other sports year-on-year across FTA TV.
                Rugby league leads all other sports in the top 20 FTA sports programs with 7 programs as at 6/9/10
                NRL remains the most dominant sport on Fox Sports across all time slots as at 6/9/10
                with 30 of the top 50 programs
                as at 30/9/10 “.
                The SOO 1 had a record nationally 3.6million viewers(Sydney 1.18m).The series was also the most viewed ever across the 5 cap cities with 6.4million plus fans tuning in,and a further 3.3million watching in regional Australia.
                Notice the cynics have difficulty in absorbing the imporrtance of the regionals.

                Over 1.8million viewers nationally watched the VB test match at AAMI Park.
                Over 1.2million viewers watched nationally the historic Indigeneous All Stars v NRL All Stars game.

                I will refer to Simon Canning in the Australian 21st Mar 11 not Masters and not a rugby league writer.
                “Overall the NRL delivered a total cumulative audience of 120.6million across all coverage compared to the 111.1 million for the AFL
                .While the AFL claimed,on a club-by-club basis,that it was ahead of its rival,the NRL also finished ahead in terms of average audience by fixture,with an audience of 1.01 million on FTA TV compared to 884,000 to the AFL.”
                “He also noted “the report found that while the AFL delivered a higher FTA cumulative audience when the G/F replay was taken into account,without the replay the NRL triumphed.
                It is obvious regionals are taken into account and so they should be .They are consumers.

                These are not quotes or musings of Roy Masters or Gallop but from the head office with sources from Oztam and Nielsen research. Some media pundits have stated Packer upped the ante before his death.It is not just the domain of Masters.The likes of the D.T Richie,Balyn and Webster noted 27/4/11 the Packer effect of trying to cripple 7 ,at the time of the last negotiations.

                The irony of it all ,Colin Smith head of Lek’s regional sports division is advising the NRL re the next rights deal.He worked on the biggest then sports deal :the AFL’s 5 years $780m

              • May 1st 2011 @ 2:57pm
                JVGO said | May 1st 2011 @ 2:57pm | ! Report

                Crosscoder, as someone I admire as easily the most intelligent, rational, well informed, upright, honest, balanced and patient posters on this site i am really glad to see that your mastery of the format options on your keyboard is gradually approaching an acceptable standard.

          • April 30th 2011 @ 6:59pm
            GoGWS said | April 30th 2011 @ 6:59pm | ! Report

            Paul – for arguments sake let’s say I accept your claims – the millions differences in viewing figures over the year is actually less than 1%. So accepting what you say, and Roy Masters says, only gets you as far as saying the AFL and NRL have the same audience. Fair enough – let’s sit back and wait for a $1.25bn deal teh shall we!!..lol..

            Look don’t take my word for it – do some basic googling and you will discover that Gallop has already responded to this issue and explained why the NRL is less (i.e. a far lower 5 city audience). THERE IS NO MYSTERY – THERE IS NOTHING TO EXPLAIN.

            I don’t know whether it’ll be boring or amusing to see all the BS from RL journos over the next 12mnths regarding this issue.

            • April 30th 2011 @ 9:49pm
              mick h said | April 30th 2011 @ 9:49pm | ! Report

              rl will get an increased deal i estimate around 900million not including sky nz (currently 12 million a year) that will be a great deal and who cares if the afl get a bigger deal they have much bigger bills to pay eg. gws,suns and continually bailing out the swans and the lions.

            • May 1st 2011 @ 8:51am
              Paul J said | May 1st 2011 @ 8:51am | ! Report

              (i.e. a far lower 5 city audience).

              AFL is currently shown in 5 capital cities, the NRL 2. This will change before the next NRL deal.

              If the NRL go to Perth and Brisbane with expansion as expected the NRL will negotiate with teams in the 6 biggest TV markets in the country: Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Reginal NSW, Reginal Qld, Perth.

              Conditions are all changing to benefit the NRL.

              • May 1st 2011 @ 10:36am
                GoGWS said | May 1st 2011 @ 10:36am | ! Report

                The NRL will get between $700m to $800m over 5 years – if they achieved $800m over 5 yrs that would be a 92% increase over their current $500m/6 year deal. The AFL achieved a 60% increase in its 1.253bn deal, and this was with the addition of an extra game each round. I’d be interested to see whether the NRL sticks with 6 year deals rather than 5 year deals?

                The NRL won’t go anywhere near 1 billion this time around – just won’t happen, not unless they try and tie up a 7 year deal perhaps. Masters and the rest will bust a blood vessel arguing the NRL is worth the same as the AFL but it just won’t happen – their arguments rest on a faulty base. Nothing has changed.

              • May 1st 2011 @ 1:47pm
                Paul J said | May 1st 2011 @ 1:47pm | ! Report

                Go GWS

                I don’t think comparing the NRL’s current deal is a realistic base to predict what is to come as it is currently so undervalued, every one is the media and finance sector agrees on that.

                Under an IC, I’ve yet to see a reason why the NRL won’t get a bumper deal this time around. It’s not as if Networks 7,9 & 10, Foxtel & Telstra don’t have plenty of cash reserves left.

              • May 1st 2011 @ 3:17pm
                GoGWS said | May 1st 2011 @ 3:17pm | ! Report


                Are those ‘everyone in the media and finance sector’ the same ones who reckoned the AFL rights weren’t worth $1bn?!…look you need to do yourself a favour and stop believing some of the nonsense circulating in the RL media….those sources have zero credibility…none.

                Surely even RL fans can no longer believe a single word coming out of journalists like Masters or their anonymous sources. Surely the gig is up!!…none ar so blind as those that will not see!!… it’s your call of course…believe what you will,,,…get sucked in by the nonsense and BS that circulates in the RL media – they all ran around agreeing with each other that the AFL rights would get nowhere near $1bn and just look what happened…they are clueless….some credit to Gallop and the NRL though – they don’t carry on with the nonsense that goes on in the RL media…

              • May 1st 2011 @ 3:23pm
                GoGWS said | May 1st 2011 @ 3:23pm | ! Report

                And comparing the previous bases form one deal to the next for both NRL and AFL is a realistic basis to start the comparison… the only realist basis to do so. ….don’t allow yourself to get sucked in by the Masters myth that form the last round the AFL deal was somehow over-valued and NRL deal undervalued… that is a total myth for which there has never been any logical justification/evidence…yes it’s an often repeated claim but repeating it constantly in the RL media doesn’t make it true….it was false when the like of Masters first started saying it and it remains untrue….

              • May 1st 2011 @ 11:34pm
                Mike said | May 1st 2011 @ 11:34pm | ! Report

                Paul, there is a reason why the regionals are counted separately in the TV ratings despite sharing programming. Seven, Nine and Ten don’t have networks in regional Australia, and they can’t sell national advertising to those areas – this is where networks make their money back when buying sporting rights. So unless this situation changes in the next year or John Deere starts advertising into the five capital cities in addition to the regionals, it’s all for naught.

            • May 1st 2011 @ 1:10pm
              Crosscoder said | May 1st 2011 @ 1:10pm | ! Report

              Gallop when discussing values , appears did not take into account expansion,did not take into account 22 weeks of AFL compared to 26 for the NRL.He was in the habit of talking the code down in many occasions in the past,as to expectations.He has changed his tune of late ,due to what has confronted him :record Tv ratings. And indeed the very likelihood of expansion(again in today’s Sun herald).
              It is patently obvious for anyone with half a brain ,regardless of the argument about Kerry Packer et al,that rugby league was indeed undersold greatly in the last round of negotiations.
              The Pay TV and FTA Tv ratings which continue to grow,are proof enough that was the case.Media,sport and rl people have stated so and just about every rl fan .
              The continual harping on about a 5 city audience for comparsion,when in effect rl is shown in 2 cities ATM,is like comparing a Pawpaw with a passionfruit.

              If using the less than realistic(as history has shown) last Tv contract for rl as the guide,an extrapolating forward that is the game should get about $700m-$800m,is about as BS (when expansion is included,when internet rights are included,when 3 stations are bidding(one in reality last time),when Pay Tv finally has to realise they must pay a premium for MNF(which was not in the contract last time),the very strong chance of live telecasts Pay and FTA (the latter in southern and western cities).
              This does not take into account the deal with sky NZ which is added to the mix.Not to mention the premium the SOO series will command compared to last time.

              When I read an AFL fan,making assessments on what rl will get,I find the comparison of bagging continually Masters a touch ironic.At the same time being unable to accept the fact Packer may well have been pushing up the price last time,when other non rl journos have stated thus..
              Perhaps a bit of googling in the print media and looking at NRL reports on their website,may enlighten a few (aand they sure as hell need enlightening) with the state of play.Because as my dear old dad used to say. “Ït is like the guy who fell out of the balloon ,he ain’t in it. “

              • May 1st 2011 @ 3:40pm
                GoGWS said | May 1st 2011 @ 3:40pm | ! Report

                Crosscoder…the Kerry PAcker nonsense has never made any sense…classic Masters BS…it a total no sequitur…. yes Packer put in a high bid…and yes he was on his death bed..and yes it was a very competitive situation…. and??…and??…somehow from this Masters has concocted some sort of conclusion that Packer only intended to make a nuisance bid to punish a commercial enemy… Ch7 was NOT obligated to match the Packer bid… Packer could very well have ended up with the AFL rights in which case he was ‘harming’ himself…..

                I just shake my head when I hear this nonsense passed of as an explantation for the AFL rights being ‘over-valued’ (so-called)….. the AFL right weren’t over-valued – they were valued!!…they got their market value exactly…they achieved precisely the prices the market allowed, as did the NRL rights…..

                and as for the 5 city audience…well unfortunately for the NRL that’s the major metric that matters…Gallop has explained this…. that the 5 city rating matters most hasn’t changed….that the NRL trails the AFL significantly on this metric hasn’t changed either….the NRL might do slightly better than the AFL in terms of % increase..maybe..but to achieve a $1.253bn/5 year deal would require the NRL to achieve a 300% increase… do you honestly think that will happen?!…. when you hear the BS that will come from the RL media on this issue just remember that – they are talking about the NRL tripling the value of the deal… triple…lol

    • April 30th 2011 @ 9:14am
      oikee said | April 30th 2011 @ 9:14am | ! Report

      Paul, have you completely lost the plot. Mate all the TV money is gone. The AFL has been handed on a platter what they paid out for both codes last deal. You answered your own question in your post, ruggy league is “OWNED” by tv mongels.

      This will continue until 2027, by then ruggy league will be gone anyhow. You think there is only one force trying to get rid of ruggy league, mate come-on. You dont have to be a genious to see what is happening. The networks want ruggy to die, die i tell ya,.
      Our next deal will be lucky to pull in 400 million, its part of the downward spiral, the brainwashing has already begun, just this morning while sipping my latte, i was reading who won the AFL clash in Sydney last nite on the ruggy league site.

      Sydney is not far from falling, origin not selling out, crowds down, yes, thanks to our great Sydney based comp and leadership, our game is doomed, extiction is ney, trust me, i asked the groundhog this morning.

      • April 30th 2011 @ 12:26pm
        brad said | April 30th 2011 @ 12:26pm | ! Report

        oikee your a battler

      • April 30th 2011 @ 2:10pm
        kovana said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:10pm | ! Report

        “the brainwashing has already begun, just this morning while sipping my latte, i was reading who won the AFL clash in Sydney last nite on the ruggy league site.”

        Its worse then i thought.. Oikee.. Go wash your eyes out with betadine… Now. 😆

      • April 30th 2011 @ 9:50pm
        mick h said | April 30th 2011 @ 9:50pm | ! Report

        the two games in brisbane sold out in record time and sydney will sell 80,000

      • May 1st 2011 @ 9:10am
        Dingo said | May 1st 2011 @ 9:10am | ! Report

        Welcome to the darkside oikee. 😉

    • April 30th 2011 @ 12:13pm
      Paul J said | April 30th 2011 @ 12:13pm | ! Report

      I haven’t been on the Roar for a while oikee, good to see you’re still here, entertaining as always.

      What did the groundhog tell you about the Broncos chances this year?

    • April 30th 2011 @ 12:32pm
      JVGO said | April 30th 2011 @ 12:32pm | ! Report

      It’s been a long hard battle for the fans, no doubt about it and now we have to AFL armed with News money to contend with. But Oikee you are obviously a Broncos fan, you simply can’t imagine life without a ton of money. If you were a Sharks fan like some of us on here you would be used to fighting on with no money and running simply on guts and determination. Aim up.

      • April 30th 2011 @ 2:05pm
        oikee said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:05pm | ! Report

        JV, the problem these days is that we no longer live in the past. Well you and me dont, but ruggy league does. If you follow me you will remember me countless times saying, money is the only thing that holds ruggy league back. No code, and the toffs own the money that can hold our game back, no code these days can survive without money, and i keep saying, money is the only thing holding ruggy league back, worldwide. Even now the Toffs in the England government are trying to deny our world cup funds, just so they can see our game suffer.

        They are stragling the very life out of our game, we need chinese money, fresh new crispy yen.

        • April 30th 2011 @ 2:13pm
          kovana said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:13pm | ! Report

          “we need chinese money, fresh new crispy yen.”

          Imagine the refs..


          “Dackle Won!”

          “Pray the Barrlll!”

        • May 1st 2011 @ 9:39am
          The Bush said | May 1st 2011 @ 9:39am | ! Report

          Are you aware that the yen is used in Japan?

          Ah oikee, you’re always a riot!

    • April 30th 2011 @ 2:04pm
      Al from ctown said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:04pm | ! Report

      Crowds down? Your kidding right? Lol oh oikee I want what your on! That much delusion must come at a hefty price! Maybe that’s why the afl supporters think the same! To much money to blow on mind altering drugs… Lol. 400 mill… Haha ur classic.. Where else could I spend my day then waiting for your next rant… Nowhere that’s where… Your too special tiger..

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      • April 30th 2011 @ 2:06pm
        oikee said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:06pm | ! Report

        🙂 Just dont want you to get your hopes up. We might get 450.

    • April 30th 2011 @ 2:23pm
      Matt S said | April 30th 2011 @ 2:23pm | ! Report

      Oikee, relax. League has always been under attack from the establishment in the UK.

      But things to consider:

      We have the UK rugby league parliamentary group fighting our cause.

      The 4th player from the Scottish conference rugby league comp has signed for a super league club

      St Helens & Salford will run out in brand spanking new stadiums in 2012. Stadiums that may not be huge but laden with corporate facilities.

      Aberdeen grammar won the Scottish schools saltire cup on the weekend.

      Catalans on the rise again.2 near sell outs in last two home games. New stand will open soon.

      Oxford thrashing Cambridge on live Sky TV

      Bristol school comp kicking off with 6 schools initially

      100 odd clubs in 10 divisions in the UK conference league including teams from Devon to Aberdeen.

      Lots to be proud of considering the obstacles.

      • April 30th 2011 @ 9:44pm
        mick h said | April 30th 2011 @ 9:44pm | ! Report

        115 to be exact

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