Australian rugby domestic league and Champions rugby

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but at the very least this proposal evidently they have a backer willing to foot the expenses which makes them a little difficult to exclude. There's also another proposal floating around but I haven't seen any sought of details regarding it.

In relation to the ARC, it's been done to death on this site and others as to why it tanked. Just a few points: - No star Wallaby players - Was kicked off just before the RWC - 'franchises' were in odd areas (Fleet & Rays, Tornadoes and Aces) or had odd names with little regard to potential supporters (the Qld franchises) - Set up costs were always going to be high. Average attendance for 95/96 season of Top 14 in France was 4k. Now it's arguably the riches comp in the world. Needed to be better implemented and supported long term. - Was on an obscure digital channel. - Biggest financial outlays were to Sydney and Brisbane clubs as 'compensation' for the players involved in the ARC. and so on ad nauseum.

Johnno, no one wants to pay for it. Frankly, even if the ARU thought it would work (whcih they don't), they could never afford it in the first place. Newscopr would hate it. They would be disgusted. If it failed it would crush the ARU financially. They might never recover. It simply won't happen.

Yes thats all true but jon mate, th ARC in my opinion didn't work coz it was played under the veil of the super 15, much like currie cup and ITM cup in NZ. Super 15 gets first right at talent when players are fresh and rugby fans are enthusiastic. start the comp in march with no super 15 fully fresh teams, have a rebel, force, canberra team tuggeranong vikings, and bisbane, sydney teams i think it would sell or include the nz teams to.

Oh, and tv viewing figures for South African games are always godo, because SA has the largest share of the tv audience. Tv ratings are marginally up in SA. Their massivly up in Aus. They are about level, a little down in NZ. NZ is struggling. Which is ironic, because they are the smallest market in SANZAR and have the least appeal financialy for Newscorp already, as it is.

Hi Johnno. Mate, I've already posted a really long thingo on this. i can't be bothered going over it again. i explained in detail why the ARC is a non-starter. I'll repost it : "It’s all pie in the sky, this talk of an Aus domestic league. It’s fantasy. They tried it. It cost tens of millions of dollars. It made no money. Almost no one watched it. The TV rights were given away for FREE to the ABC. Attendences were terrible. It set the ARU back financially in a massive way. Essentially it squandered all the money that was raised during the 2003 World Cup. It failed totally and utterly after ONE season. It’s completely ridiculous to think it would work now, with the ARU having less money and the rise in tv funding to the NRL and AFL (this money essentially comes from a pool, a budget that the major networks have for sports rights. If they give the AFL and NRL billion dollar, multi-year deals, as they have/are doing, it means less money for other sports) So in the real world a financially succesful Australian domestic comp is fantasy and simply won’t happen. The best that could be hoped for is some kind of semi-proffesional psuedo national comp consisting of the existing Shute Sheild and Queensland teams, with maybe reserve teams from the Force, Brumbies and Rebels. Even this has been looked at and rejected." However, they are currently working on different options, Johnno. Right now they are looking at creating a comp with four teams from Sydney (they are looking at Easts, Souths, Randwick and Manly I believe) four from QLD (not sure, but probly all brisbane teams) and then shadow sides from the Rebels and Brumbies. It would always, always be a feeder league though for Super Rugby. There will not be a new domestic comp that replaces Super Rugby in Australia, in the forseeable future. Rugby union isn't popular enough and doesn't have access to the revenue. It's all about dollars and cents Johnno. It shouldn't be, but it is and always will be.

Well i odnt think i am totally wrong join. Statistics are misleading and i would be curious to see if tv ratings are up for non local derbies and would love to know the stats for the late night matches in south africa id say they are miserably low. And crowds have been pathetic for non local derby matches, and the super 15 finals has been a sleep a thon really boring, lacking the local based edge of a AFL or NRL final series. Give me a national australian rugby comp or a trans tasman comp any day of the week and i am sure i am in the majority of supporters who would prefer it to the meaningless Super Dud.

Well crowds and tv ratings are larger for Super rugby, advertisers prefer it, broadcasters prefer it and Newscorp pays more money for it. So you're wrong.

Sorry sledgehammer, but massive national organisations don't make descisions based on your personal enjoyment of 5 games or some lines in a park in North Sydney. The ARC lost millions of dollars and set the ARU back financially for many years. The attendences were poor, the tv ratings were terrible and it made zero money. It was utterly unsustainable.

Yes the ARC had hope just super 12 or 15 as it is known today undermined it like the currie cup is undermined and the ITM in NZ is undermined by the super `15. As for comps"Atawahi Drive" i have never own a pro sports comp that is more complicated apart from the ridiculous super 6's or super 8's ODI cricket world cups of 1999,2003,2007, watt a farce that tournament set up was. Super 15 is the most complicated pro sports comp i know of in the world , and kevin great ideas but no 1 the concept would even be more expensive to run than the super 15, and i think in reality what people like and this is proven by the EURO RUGBY and soccer leagues is people like a local comp and contingent comp, running speratly not one regular season content comp or mixed continents comp like the super 15. And also in the same time zones which the super 15 is certainly not. Regular season Pro sport comps rarely work where the time zone difference is great than 5 hours. Super 15 is a lost, becoming an increasingly complicated, and beyond unfair finals format to the point fo farcical. It's 1 thing to reward home advantage to the top placed teams which i think is vital for any pro sports comp as it motivates teams highly andrewards regular season form heavily by giving home ground advantage tot he top ranked teams from the regular season. but what the crusaders have had to endure is beyond rewarding the reds for coming no 1, it is actually killing the contest and severely limiting the crusaders output or any teams performance. The crusaders are mentally the most resilient team in the super 15 , but they are human it is farcical to make them fly to south africa in week play, then fly back to Australia all in the space of 2 weeks. in the regular season when it happens teams have been in south africa for 2 weeks,. And finals matches are also more draining. so soulutionshave to be found form turning the super 15 into a farce. but i want local comp and a southern hemphisphere conference end of season champions league , like a big pay day knockout comp. Best for grass roots and also rewards pay tv , as tv ratings will be higher, and the southern hemphisphere championship will be like a state of origin tv blockbuster type format even make it on pay per view and have like winner takes all for the winner, and offer seriously big paycheques.to the winning players form the winning team.

Someone wrote the ARC was a disaster - rubbish, it was awesome. I personally went to about 5 games. I'll never forget the lines outside of North Sydney stadium snaking back through the park. Great excitement, and great games. Loved it.

Exactly. This is all just fantasy. In an ideal world where money didn't matter and everything went the way it should, these ideas might work. But it just doesn't work that way.

The ARC was a disaster because no one wanted to watch it, pay for it or attend it. It's trite to think that just rebranding it and changing the teams around a bit is going to make it work. Frankly the ARU can't afford to impliment it anyway, and even if they could, why in the world would they take the risk of a crippling financial disaster? It's unrealistic.

Well that depends on how you look at it. It's all pie in the sky, this talk of an Aus domestic league. It's fantasy. They tried it. It cost tens of millions of dollars. It made no money. Almost no one watched it. The TV rights were given away for FREE to the ABC. Attendences were terrible. It set the ARU back financially in a massive way. Essentially it squandered all the money that was raised during the 2003 World Cup. It failed totally and utterly after ONE season. It's completely ridiculous to think it would work now, with the ARU having less money and the rise in tv funding to the NRL and AFL (this money essentially comes from a pool, a budget that the major networks have for sports rights. If they give the AFL and NRL billion dollar, multi-year deals, as they have/are doing, it means less money for other sports) So in the real world a financially succesful Australian domestic comp is fantasy and simply won't happen. The best that could be hoped for is some kind of semi-proffesional psuedo national comp consisting of the existing Shute Sheild and Queensland teams, with maybe reserve teams from the Force, Brumbies and Rebels. Even this has been looked at and rejected. In regards to your point about Super Rugby being detrimental for rugby in SA and NZ, that is a fair enough position in some ways. It is detrimental to the popularity and exposure of the Currie Cup and the NPC. However, it is better for the standard of rugby (anyone who thinks the CC and NPC are the same standard as Super Rugby is delusional). And far more important than that (this is the crux of the matter), it is far, far more benficial in terms of revenue generation, particularly for NZ. Newscorp likes Super Rugby. That's what they want, it's what they pay hundreds of millions of dollars for. They pushed for it to be expanded (its pretty simple for them, more teams and fixtures means more ratings and advertising space on tv). The reason Melbourne got a team is that it's a city of 4 million people with massive opportunities for revenue, advertising and tv viewing figures. Also, Australia is the only expansion market. As anyone who has done any economics knows companies need expansion markets and increasing profits to justify investment. Which is why Newscopr pushed for the expansion of the Australian conference. Figures are up 28%, and this is still a tiny fraction of the available market in Australia. The Currie Cup offers some benefits to Newscorp. SA has the largest viewing figures of any of the SANZAR countires, and could generate some decent tv money. But the kicker is that Newscopr already owns it. And the amount they would pay for it is a very small fraction of what they are willing to pay for Super Rugby. It has appeal in one country. Newscopr buys it as part of the total package, but they see it as an add on, an extra bonus to Super Rugby. Take away Super Rugby, and the Currie Cup is just a much diminished version of what they already have paid for. They would just pay much less for it. The NPC is worth a fraction of what the Currie Cup is. NZ is a small market. There is little room for growth in tv figures or advertising, and other revenue generation. As it is with Super Rugby the five teams means a concentration of viweing numbers, which means higher ratings per game. Basically all the same stuff that applies to the Currie Cup, applies to the NPC, only more so. Newscorp already owns it. It's the same as the Currie Cup, except smaller tv ratings. Ultimatly SANZAR and the respective national unions know all this already, which is why they signed the deal to expand Super Rugby, and whyy that is and for the forseeable future will be the way forward. Any reversion to domestic leagues with a much smaller cross continental competition similar to the HC will basically piss off Newscopr and result in a massive drop in revenue. This would cripple the ARU and NZRU, and to a lesser extent the SARU. Considering how desperate these unions are at the moment in terms of trying to generate additional revenue to stay competetive with the European rugby market, the last thing they would do is shoot themselves in the foot like that. You cannot expect SANZAR to adopt the European model. It's a very different market. There's less people, less money. Which is why Super Rugby was conceived and implimented in the first place. It IS the way forward. It's the only way.

WCR, I can't see this model getting up. I've been a Woodies' supporter for 50 years and also very sympathetic to promotion of Rugby in Western Sydney. If the Eastern Suburbs/North Shore lobby is successful in calling the shots, then the Rugby competition in Sydney is destined for oblivion. There is no place for Sydney University in a 21st Century competition, where they have an unfair advantage in offering scholarships to the cream of Sydney Rugby talent, which no other club can match, despite the fact that most clubs pay their top players a modest remuneration. They don't have an equivalent junior structure to the other clubs, but instead cherrypick the best talent developed by these clubs. Their time has passed as a major player in a domestic Rugby competition.

Loads and loads of increasingly complicated structures for the game. But skulking in the background is the elephant in the room: money. As in, who's going to pay? Everyone enjoys a good fantasy. Some people like to fantasise what Australia would be like with one less tier of government i.e. no states. But fantasy and reality collide at the cash register.

There's a model for a national club competition circulating with Syd Uni as an integral member of the Sydney teams. Unfortunately that plan neglects anyone West of Camperdown.

SR should continue in a style of IPL cricket with 6 Aus franchises, 6 NZ, 6 SA, there would be an auction of the contracted players (being contracted to SR) and include the top 35 Argies and top 35 Pacific Islands players as minimum. Each sqaud would be allowed any player from SANZAR or PI and also contract up to 20 overseas players in a squad of 32, a match day 22 would have a maximum of 8 non-SANZAR/PI. SR has the potential to beomce like the NFL as a global sporting brand and attract the best players in the world. Running alongside could be an Americas SR with 7 USA, 4 Canadian and 5 Argentinian franchises, playing in a similar format. When those franchises are ready then more franchises could be set up in these countries, until there is around 30-36 teams playing a similar season to the NFL (16-18 games a season plus play-offs). This would keep the number of games limited to keep crowds/interest up. I am English and think our NH rugby sason is seriously flawed with different comps every week and far too much played. Personally a Euro League of 30-36 teams playing in same style would be a great benefit to all rugby. Eventually how about a world league of 30-36 franchises around the world playing 16-18 games a season plus play-offs in a combined season (summer in Europe), followed by International, then world cup every 4 years. The Lions could also play in the middle of a WC cycle and play NZ, SA, Aus, Arg in rotation.

It's funny but in a way Fox's decision to broadcast the ITM Cup live into Australia is benefitting Aussie rugby. Last year, it kept top-level rugby on the screens after the Super 14 season has ended and the games overall are of a sufficiently high enough standard to tweak the interest of NRL fans in ways that the Shute Shield can't. (It helps that you had the likes of SBW and Brad Thorn running around; the common reaction from NRL fans to seeing either has been `so that's where they went!'). I mentioned on previous posts that I have had a number of surreal conversations about the ITM Cup with die-hard NRL fans wanting to know more about the teams and where in NZ they are from (and less about the rules although there's that too).

Points about this and the southern hemphispheres evolution into the future next 40 years to 2050 and maybe beyond. Globalisationa dn technology is with us and moving into the future. However grass roots and geographic community still come first in generating interest and loyalty. Technology can'd prevent time zone differences, jet lag for players, and super sonic flight eg sydney to cape town, or sunday london in 2 hours give up on that concept. Super 15 almost had tried to do this do the impossible have pro sports comps with ridiculous timezones and extreme cross continents and cultural differences that are fun at first but for regular season novelty wares off. and it is a insanely expensive logistical pro sports comp. And this 2thousand and 10 or 11 so to speak and you can not put elite athletes in backpacker hostels at bondi beach, or cheap motels, and expect optimum performance those days are gone. They have to be decked out in 5 star hotels , economy class on planes are good standard now almost like business class 15 years ago. But 5 star hotels and international long distance travel is a lot of money at this type of player and logistical staff numbers, so so expensive. Have 4 conferences 1) Aus NZ (commbined trans tasman super seires) that also means u will be able ot get true pro rugby team in the true sports heartland of australia western sydney. 2) South Africa currie cup 3) japan top 10 cup 4)Winner of argentine comp( would be great if the argues rugby union would allow pro club rugby in there country 5) and maybe add to the winner of the Hk comp or put 1 team form HK or singapore in the Aus NZ comp Have a pacific island rule in all the teams 4 per team so to keep them form europe. anD HAVE A MARQUEE IMPO RULE LIKE 1 import form any country in the world, on no slurry cap for that import , and also 1 local marquee player with no salary cap restrictions. so the likes of dan carter, kutrley beale, quade cooper, could get big 3rd party cash to stay with comp. and then have a southern hemphisphere champions league with big cash incentives for the winner even make the final pay per view or something but have huge cash for the winner. something like that would be good. And get a top rectangular stadium in sydney either at parr stadium, lidcombe oval, belmore oval, chatswood oval, darling harbour, just somewhere ligistaclly viable. If south africa could build all those new stadiums, or renovate them eg Loftus, and now nz with the world cup, im sure the australian fe govt, and NSW state govt, and privat investment could all combine and build top quality 30 to 40,000 top quality stadium in sydney. And canberra is looking at putting a roof up at canberra stadium . Coz stadiums need corporate boxes for revenue thats where the money comes. I would love to watch a full strength western sydney side or parra 2blues vs sydney east or randwick would be awesome.