The weekend’s unedifying spat between Robbie Slater and Craig Foster around A-League coach Jim Magilton says much about football in Australia.
It says that we are still undecided about what constitutes a coach with good judement of a playing group to maximise their potential.
It says that some pundits see themselves as the defining voice of what can be loosely termed as ‘progressive football’.
It says that some people seem happy to not just open the wardrobe door a slither but to blow the door so wide open that we can’t see what was supposed to be revealed in the first place.
It says that there is sufficient critical mass of opinion for this to be one trail worth following, something that we should be thankful for as a byproduct of the ruckus.
But at the core of the Robbie Slater-Craig Foster bunfight is the contention that British coaches with little or no demonstrated track record at a high level, offer little to Australian football. As much as I listen (but don’t always agree) to Fozz, he can come across as painting with a broadstrioke, in that the interpretation of his comments incited accusations of racism at worst or football snobbery at best.
The thing with Foster though is that he does not see the footballing world through passports but through football ability. His omission of Pierre Littbarski is glaring, sure (and I add Lothar Matheus, a dominant playing figure but with a forgettable coaching record), but I think we can conclude that there are bad eggs in both ‘sides’ if you will, the sides being the stereotyped British (and antiquated according to some) style and the stereotyped possession and tactical based style of the rest. But these are stereotypes. While some have merit, others are plain wrong.
For every long ball merchant like Big Sam there exists a Terry Venables and Sir Bobby Robson, whose tenures at Camp Nou are not incidental in their outlooks.
At the opposite end of the coaching honour roll, I recall great frustration in attaining my Level 2 Vic badge in 1995 under predominantly British coaches only to learn far, far more under an Australian who did very well in Europe in the following years.
His disdain for the British way was palpable and I admit it has tainted my view of British coaches ever since. The “get the ball into the forwards’ feet now, like” approach was always furthest from my mind when coaching juniors, with possession and attacking using the core, well known principles of width and speed as first priorities.
It is a little rich though to claim that we should be accepting nothing less than the best on offer from the epicentre of football, especially with our distance in both playing and geographical terms and the youth of our national league.
The venn diagrams of those favouring British coaches and those favouring Latin/European ones do reveal a common area of just good coaches. While the approach of the proponents of both can be examined to death via titillating tabloid means, the debate has been started. Maybe that is all Foster intended, for he must have been aware of the depth of passion his piece would ignite.
As for Slater, his dark revelations of times in Tahiti, whatever they are, should be treated with the irrelevance they deserve. They were premeditated, unnecessary and of no benefit to this important debate.
tribina
Guest
why is it that we still cannot acknowledge that the British style and development system is inferior/outdated/primitive, when more than most of the British know their own style is redundant and outdated?? The statistics and evidence is all staring us in the face. Even the mother country England has admitted it...post euro failures/post wc failures..time and time again It's so hard to classify this whole British football saga as a debate when i just don't see any reasons favouring them!!! (A debate typically has reasons from both sides backed with some sort of evidence and line of argument!!). I'm yet to see a creditable argument in favour of the British style, yet parts of australian football still hold on!! i don't get it!!
Jack. L
Guest
Good points BA81. I'm sure that Foster is well aware of the challenges facing Magilton and is already putting the buff and polish on his told you so article lol. I agree I don't think racist is quite the word, but he sure has some mental scars from his time over there. Extreme stereotyped language from both sides isn't getting us anywhere.
BA81
Guest
Fozzie's off-hand dismissal of Magilton is indeed disheartening, all the more so considering Fozz is still seemingly unaware of Jim's brief tenure at Sporting Lisbon studying their youth set-up. Yes I and everyone can see he is staunchly anti-British 'fight/hoof-ball' but to insinuate he is a racist, as Slater did, is just stirring up a hornet's nest as baseless as Fozz's own dismissal of JM. In any case, what he, Robbie Slater and everyone seems to miss is that there is no guarantee JM will be able to stamp his style upon this Victory squad populated mainly by ageing, and/or technically-inept route-one merchants. Jim has said he'll bring attractive/passing football but I doubt a midfield anchored by Leigh Broxham, for instance, will be able to adapt to that! What the Victory needed - and still do - more than a change of coach is a change of PLAYERS, period!
Jack. L
Guest
Just on the British issues again Futbanous. I think it is a mistake to think that British football is a monolith that never has football debates about how to play the game. The Clough/Revie rivalry is a famous example. If Clough hadn't been so abrasive more teams might have followed his example rather than the at times awful brutal football favoured by Revie. These guys were out there actively sabotaging eachother and given the loyalty to their managers at the time could you imagine the tensions in the England dressing room. Probably unfortunately for English football most of the football establishment sided with the much more personable Revie at the time. Thats what hardening views can do, "the my way or the highway attitude" where conceding good points becomes an admission of defeat rather than a way to improve. A wider community issue would have been the introduction of the first black player in the late seventies to the England team. Given that there are still racial tensions today it would have had to have been a divisive issue within the team as it was in England at large for all that is was the right thing to do. To me all the turmoil of the time, as does the Spanish example, shows that it doesn't matter how you like to play the game... if you don't have team unity you are stuffed. I believe that the 70s, 80's period was an important crossroad for English football and in many ways they took the wrong paths.
Jack. L
Guest
Who knows for certain as we weren't on the selection panel and neither were many of the critics, but just perhaps he was one of the few who put his hand up to take the job and without asking the Earth and the Moon to do it. There is nothing wrong with aiming high, but we have to be realistic as well. If you are an ambitious manager would coaching an A-league team look good on your cv?... and it isn't wise to break the bank to overcome this with the lure of money that our clubs don't have anyway. It is interesting to note that Fozz now rates Rodgers from Swansea, yet how much would he have seen of his sides in the Championship and what was his opinion of him after his spells at Watford and Reading? Foster is as much stuck in a time warp as he believes British football to be. He continually slips into "when I played in the Championship..." It was over a decade ago. Considering the two teams he played for over three seasons went into administration and with one having to move him on it is hardly surprising that he doesn't have fond memories of the comp. How many British managers did he play under? He rates El Tel who was one and the guy at Portsmouth moved him on pretty quickly so he's unlikely to be a favourite. So who else did he play under? Foster does make some good points about how Australian football needs to develop, but he is undoubtedly biased against British managers/coaches because he judged Magilton without knowing much about him or how his sides played.
Jack. L
Guest
That is pretty much it Futbanos, we do need to be streetsmart. We can't just be as good as, we need to be better at developing players, coaches, administrators and infrastructure. It's not only football nations either it's other sports as well. Do other sports have anything transferrable that can make us better. In Australia we have such a chip on our shoulder that at times using anything from other sports is seen as a failure by some. Going back to the Brazilian example again, does futsal as a development tool have any disadvantages? Do some kids struggle spatially with the step up to bigger grounds, because their brains have been wired to work in smaller spaces. We need to look just as hard at why some children fail, rather than just the success stories. We can less afford failures. Debate is good as long as it is done the right way. Afterall there is ongoing debate in the countries we are learning from as to how you do things, which is why the stereotyping used here is unhelpful. It is ironic that those criticising the British system for it's rigidity are now totally closing their minds to the possibility of anything of value from that football culture. Just on the British failure at international level, I don't think you can discount tribalism either. That would certainly help explain why when their tactical systems were working in European club competitions they weren't working in national comps. Even now some fans don't give a toss about international football as it interrupts them watching their club and worse can lead to players being injured on international duty... even in matches that mean something. Others would rather rip out their own tongues than support players from their traditional club rivals, but the boo boys are out in force given the slightest opportunity to criticise a rival player playing for the national team. This was much worse for Spain given the traditional hatreds, especially of Madrid and even more so when they were so dominant at club level.. Even with all their technical and tactical knowhow dressing room disharmony was too hard to overcome. Finally though they have got there with this Barca team providing the core. More recently I don't think you can discount the xbox generation. Are too many kids preferring to play the game on a screen rather than actually get out there and do it for real thus diluting talent pools. What cultural factors are at play? A recent study found that Brazilian children had spent twice as many hours actually with ball at feet than other countries including us and England. There are a number of complex issues that need debating properly rather than the use of stereotypes and hardened close minded attitudes that seem to be developing on all sides of the debates IMO. We need to use everything possible at our disposal to help overcome our disadvantages if we want to become a football power.
eric
Guest
What made Magilton such a stand out candidate when MV supposedly searched "the four corners of the globe "for a new manager?
Delije Sever
Guest
I think you missed the gist of what I meant with that article. I was re-iterating how stupid the stereotype people have that everything British equates to 'long ball'. Like you, I doubt the journalist was there, but history shows that after Liverpool's exit to Red Star in that seasons Champions Cup they changed their style and English clubs in general adapted and went on to completely own that comp for the next decade. British coaches are not given the credit they deserve.
Futbanous
Guest
JackL Condensing your points down to a basic level. What we need to do given the sporting climate we operate in with a relatively small population,is be street smart on the World stage. That means extracting & adapting the best practices from around the world to the local scene. What that also means though is a constant debate about where were heading & how were going to achieve it. Foz,Slater agree or disagree , are important in the sense that they keep the debate active,ongoing. If you want a personal opinion on why British teams continue to fail at the International level ,its because in a sense the long entrenched history of the game,indeed the sense of heritage, makes the thought of ideas from foreigners maybe being superior,unpalatable. Australia has the opposite problem IMO. It has no sense of deep heritage to back itself up.so it needs to build one by learning from the "World Game" (not the British,Italian,Brazilian whatever one )as you indicate.
jbinnie
Guest
Delije -While agreeing with your observation that there were some "Slavian" teams,players,and coaches that made a huge general impact on European football I think it is a bit presumptious when you cite the words of a journalist who describes what went on in a "Boot Room" at Anfield around 1974. Was he in there? I doubt it. After all ,Shankly also made the comment after 1967 that Stein was probably the greatest manager ever after he took a team of boys, all born in a 22 mile radius of Glasgow, and beat the "kings of catenaccio",Inter Milan .to win the European Cup. It is a well chronicled event, that that was not accomplished by long ball tactics, but closer to the pacy,hard working, all round football tactics, first mooted back in the 20's by one Jimmy Hogan, an Englishman who,having his thoughts on coaching tactics totally rejected by the FA,took himself on to continental Europe,starting off in Austria before moving to Hungary spreading the gospel about football and how it should be played. There is measurable data that from that time European football came on in leaps and bounds culminating when the mighty Magyars drove the point home so decisively in 1953/54.Did see Red Star,a magnificent team. Cheers jb
Jack. L
Guest
I don't really have a problem with looking at Barca as something to aspire to super G as they are the benchmark at the moment, but the assumption that everything La Liga is at that standard and thus to be copied is a bit problematic. The over simplification of very complex issues into this league good that league bad doesn't really help us going forward as we need to learn from as many football cultures as possible. There does seem to be a bit of football snobbery going on. Foster doesn't rate the EPL or think we can learn anything from it even now, yet EPL teams have played off in six of the last seven champions league finals.The use of the fact that British teams haven't been successful internationally for forty odd years to prove that they are behind tactically, technically and organisationally probably does explain their lack of silverware especially recently, but is there anything else at play and can we learn from it. How does that explain the failure of the English to capitalise on the success of their clubs in the late seventies to early eighties. Three different English clubs under English managers and with British squads won the champions league equivalent seven times in eight years so what other factors were at play here that didn't translate internationally and are they still relevant today. Spain until relatively recently were a flop internationally despite some dominant Real Madrid and Barca teams. What changed and is it transferrable. Looking at Brazilian football is to me a reasonable thing to do as long as you do it critically. They are obviously doing some things right, but it is a nonsense to assume that they are doing nothing wrong. We cannot assume that just by copying Brazilian practices that we will become world beaters. They have a population of 190 million plus in a football mad country, we have 20 million odd competing with a number of sports for talent.The odds are not in our favour if we just copy other countries, we need to improve on their practices. We look at British football very critically, but are we doing so at other football cultures. Surely there are some things from British football culture that can help us succeed and ways to improve ideas and practices from other cultures that can give us a competitive edge. Branding everything British bad and everything good from other football cultures will only take us so far as we have a number of competitive disadvantages...we have to improve on what it is and not disregard or approve of anything just because of where it comes from. Which is why using language that can only polarise views is so dangerous.
Axelv
Guest
Half time and post match provides plenty of time for analysis. The commentator or at least co-commentator could point out how or why something just happened, it's not that hard! I didn't really see any football analysis until Craig Foster was doing in the Champions League, then I saw Fox do it later on, and for written articles we have Tony Tannous and recently Passandmove (though he seems to have gone inactive). Football viewers really appreciate in depth analysis and not just repeating what anyone could see, but say why and how so that we can learn more.
super G
Guest
I used to enjoy Fozzy's insight and passion for the game until the role of "SBS Chief Football Analyst" went to his head. No one in the football media loves the sound of his own voice more than this motor mouth. I won't watch "The World Game" on SBS anymore since it became "The Craig Foster Show" with Fozzy continuously interupting fellow pundits and host David Basheer just for the sake of being the one doing all the talking. Also his never-ending love affair with all things Barca is getting exremely boring and demonstrate how out of touch he is with the psyche of the people from his own country if he realistically expects that Australian teams will ever learn to play even a fraction of such an artistic form of football. That's not an insult to us, it's merely being realistic. Latin cultures with rhythm in their blood , a lot of which comes from a long history in dance culture, are the only ones who could even attempt to copy the Barca model. That's not us, but our strenghts lie elsewhere , as is the case with the Germans, Eastern Europeans, Scandinavians, etc. Dare i say it, but even Johnny Warren was off the mark with his fascination with all things Brazilian. Nice in theory but not applicable to the Australian culture and mentality.
Delije Sever
Guest
The football manager Miljan Miljanic, who has died aged 81, could fairly claim to have taught the English a thing or two about tactics. At the helm of the Yugoslav side Red Star Belgrade, he twice saw off the English champions Liverpool in home and away legs of a European cup tie in 1973, leading to a rethink that had major ramifications, enabling English domination of European competition until the ban that followed the Heysel disaster 12 years later. The Merseysiders' volatile manager, Bill Shankly, stung by back-to-back 2-1 defeats, retired to the club's famous Boot Room with his posse of advisers and reached the conclusion that Liverpool's long-ball policy would no longer suffice, and hammered out a new policy of patience featuring slower advances and shorter passes. It worked. Liverpool themselves would become dominant in Europe, although it was Shankly's successor, Bob Paisley, who would reap the European rewards. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/13/miljan-miljanic-obituary?newsfeed=true
Qantas supports Australian Football
Guest
Unfortunately we in Football don't have time-outs. Although he makes a lot of good sense, however, it would annoy the crap out of me. The UCL with some of the English commentary is as about far as I would like to see it go----there is a bit of analysis going on with a view to educate, but its certainly not over the top the way the Americans explain their game moves---the reason for this is we don't have as much stoppages in play like the codes in America. Thank God for that we like to keep things moving along.
phutbol
Guest
We'll have to agree to disagree then QSAF. In the same way the football family gets upset by, but ultimately dismisses the likes of Rebecca Wilson and co's rantings, Foster is seen is similar light by non-football followers to his and the games detriment.
Punter
Guest
Very good post Jamesb, very good points on football in this country & how far we have come since 1997. Guys like Foster, like him or hate him, is pushing for continuing growth in this country & we have so much more to grow. Slater on the other hand is well Slater......
Bondy
Guest
Futbanous , I totally understand that it's impossible to enjoy every sport on the planet,personally i cant watch the second biggest sport in the world Basketball so i believe i dont hate on those who dont like futbol "let them slide by " . But i've been observing for months now the behaviour of Americans to Association Football and whats the common theme when they arc up ( the international appeal ) or it's really only played in third world countries, i thought we were quite resource rich as a nation .I've also noted that the African American appreciates the sport more which has me perplexed . My conclusion is that we are fortunate in Australia due to the fact that we also have international games in Rugby and League and they understand that it's normal to get behind the green and gold something our Southern cousins dont terribly appreciate. Good Luck with the roar not to much i hope .
TomC
Guest
Absolutely. Well said.
Futbanous
Guest
Bondy Very interesting video clip. Sometimes you forget as a fan brought up in a football culture that the game is not second nature to many ,particularly in countries like here & the USA. This guy has his finger on the pulse IMO. A little explanation whilst it may irritate you or I may perhaps help the unitiated sports follower grasp where football is coming from. After all isn't that what we football fans, wish a broader understanding of the game in the general sporting community.