France's Top 14 is killing French rugby

'cough. Cipriani, D Armitage, Danny Care, Balshaw (apples and oranges started his test career on fire but ended up as a player completely out of his depth), Ben Youngs all players who started their test careers with promise but where are they now… Look in to the latest accusations against Danny Care I would cut him off, the bloke won’t learn. David Strettle hasn’t reached his potential as a test player. Tom Varndell flunked as a test player' Cipriani and Delon Armitage are clowns - no argument from me, but we were talking about players being ruined by the England set-up. Cipriani suffered a terrible injury and was rushed back too soon. Danny Care has generally played well for England, but is clearly an immature young man. And as for judging him - innocent until proven guilty. Balshaw was a train wreck after the 2001 Lions tour, as was Ben Cohen. Varndell was probably never a Test player, and neither is David Strettle. That's got nothing to do with England - they have failed to develop their games, and that happens at club level. I could name various players who never performed for the All Blacks under Henry. That doesn't mean they were ruined by the All Black set-up. The same applies to lots of countries. It's a simple fact of rugby that a lot of players aren't capable of Test rugby. 'You go on about English clubs producing players but they still sign players from overseas and other AP clubs. Where do you think the majority of the Saracens starting line up come from then?' Saracens is one club, and I've never denied that the AP has foreigners, but it's not comparable to France. However, Saracens also has a very good academy structure, and is starting to produce some good young English players. But for the sake of argument compare Saracens to Gloucester, or Harlequins. There is no French comparison.

"No one would suggest that Johnson ruined Cipriani. In fact I would say he did him a favour." I agree he did him a favour, but there have been plenty of suggestions that Johnson ruined Cipriani which is ridiculous. Re: McKenzie, I always had the idea that Stade Francais have played negative rugby in the 00's. But when McKenzie came in, he tried to change that style and make them a more expansive side. It didn't work because, apart from the odd exception, they didn't have the cattle. As for Hernandez, in 2007, before McKenzie 'got hold of him,' he basically kicked Argentina to the World Cup semi-final. In fact, he tried to play more expansively against South Africa and was caught with his pants down. Wonderful talent with exceptional skills, but I just think he's never quite understood what his best strengths are and how much damage he can do with ball in hand. He's a bit like Frans Steyn in that sense who got a bit too carried away that he could goal-kick from 60 metres and kick the ball from hand over 80.

If you wached Hernandez play for Stade Francais and Argentina pre McKenzie he was a good attacking player. As soon as McKenzie got hold of Hernandez all he did was run in to contact or take drop goal shots from halfway. Sure he has had injuries put he will never get his attacking flair back at his age. Beauxis fell in to the same boat but still has time. He was only young when McKenzie took charge of him. Instead of working on his game he was turned in to a poor man's Hernandez. No one would suggest that Johnson ruined Cipriani. In fact I would say he did him a favour.

You can't say McKenzie has ruined anybody. Hernandez ha suffered from injuries and has always been a kicking player. Same with Beauxis. It's like saying Johnson ruined Cipriani.

Toulouse have produced whom recently? Who have they developed? Lamboley was a youth star, but has never progressed, neither did Michalak. Yann David isn't tearing up any trees either. Simply buying in the occasional French starlet isn't doing a great deal for the Test side. Will respond in greater depth to the lengthy response tonight. Busy atm.

Better than the Pro 12 though, now that is a seriously crap league

The problem is the coaches not the Top 14. McKenzie won like 7 seven straight when he started at Stade Francais then he brought in the Waratahs style kicking game plan and ruined players like Beauxis (who was only 21 at the time) and Hernandez. Both players haven't been the same since. Coaches like Berbezier and Saint Andre are known for their conservatism. Brunel finally unleashed Perpignan and they were unbelievable for a year or two playing total rugby since he left they are back to serving up rubbish. He is trying to turn the Italians around but will need time. Galthie gets his teams playing attacking French style rugby (the French flair is kind of a myth as they love forward play and scrummaging as much as the English) and should be the next coach. They have fast tracked ex players in to coaches without them getting experience (Ellisalde, Pelous, Dominic, etc) and hasn't worked really to plan. Against Wales the French players in the first half didn't have a clue what the game plan was. Backs were running lateral and into each other. Players that don't spend much time together need cohesion and the players looked lost (and Saint Andre was a back!) when they just went out and played Rugby in their own individual style they looked a lot better. People love to blame the Top 14 but it's the coaches and the players are to blame not the set up. The players should think for themselves like they used to in France. The forwards had more direction under Lievremont, players cleaned out in pairs and threes, attacked the breakdown and there has been none of that under Saint Andre. They have stopped offloading and counterattacking as a unit. Had Lievremont stuck to a set side rather than constantly rotating they would have of won the RWC and this discussion wouldn't have happen. He stuck a rod in his own back (much like Deans is with his selections). The French supporters love to pick on Laporte and Mackay but they played pretty good Rugby under them with the same set up as now and were competing against a much stronger English side.

'' Who have Toulouse developed in their XV? Doussain, and even he only joined the academy at 17. Nyanga came from Beziers, Picamoles from Montpellier, David from Bourgoign, Beauxis from Pau… with only Picamoles and Beauxis being French squad players. They’re doing very little for French rugby.'' Toulouse doing very little for French rugby? What planet are you on? They have won the most Brennus and Heineken Cup titles. Turned players with potential in to test players and the press were calling for their coach to step up to coach the French side.

''Who have Clermont produced in recent seasons? Domingo, Fofana, Malzieu, Jacquet and Lapandry basically, and only Domingo, Malzieu and Fofana are Test players. For a club with their resources that is a very poor return. Just look at their new signings: Sivivatu, Byrne, King, Vosloo, Hines… Same applies to Toulouse. All the big French clubs do is bring in players from the lower clubs, like Picamoles and Parra. The production line isn’t there.'' Mate it's called professionalism. No different to Queensland recruiting players from NSW and ACT to strengthen their squad. They have the budget and rugby program to lure players. Picamoles left Montpellier when they were in turmoil (now they are back on track but would you leave Toulouse to go back there...). No point in lurking around in clubs like Dax, Bourgoin and Beziers playing in the ProD2 who have no money and aspirations. Do you think Parra would of stuck around in Bourgoin with the club getting relegated for financial reasons? That's no different to football really. The French clubs are more in to getting results. ''Players in the England set-up get ahead of themselves? How do you even qualify that? Sounds totally subjective and stereotypical to me.'' cough. Cipriani, D Armitage, Danny Care, Balshaw (apples and oranges started his test career on fire but ended up as a player completely out of his depth), Ben Youngs all players who started their test careers with promise but where are they now... Look in to the latest accusations against Danny Care I would cut him off, the bloke won't learn. David Strettle hasn't reached his potential as a test player. Tom Varndell flunked as a test player I would nearly put Ben Foden in that category but his recent match against Ireland was an improvement on the dross he served up against Scotland, Italy and Wales. These blokes believe the press that is written about them. At least Farrell has a level head and his old man to mentor him. You go on about English clubs producing players but they still sign players from overseas and other AP clubs. Where do you think the majority of the Saracens starting line up come from then? ''England have tried to play good rugby, they’ve just been badly coached and selected, like a lot of Test sides. That’s not the same as ruining players.'' Then why do players produce for their clubs but look so poor in an England shirt. Players not reaching their potential is a big problem in English rugby You sir are deluded.

I'm just looking at the Bordeaux v Toulouse line-ups, Bakkies. Who have Toulouse developed in their XV? Doussain, and even he only joined the academy at 17. Nyanga came from Beziers, Picamoles from Montpellier, David from Bourgoign, Beauxis from Pau... with only Picamoles and Beauxis being French squad players. They're doing very little for French rugby. Contrast that to Leicester, for example. From their matchday squad against London Irish they've developed Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Tom Croft and Manu Tuilagi. Basically all Test starters.

French rugby is a kickfest. Even Simon Shaw said he was surprised how slow and attritional it was. John Danielli's book says all there is to on the subject.

The point is that Mermoz didn't get a place at Toulouse and went on to Perpignan and became a respected Test player. Is he a bad player because he couldn't usurp Fritz or Jauzion? No.

Who have Clermont produced in recent seasons? Domingo, Fofana, Malzieu, Jacquet and Lapandry basically, and only Domingo, Malzieu and Fofana are Test players. For a club with their resources that is a very poor return. Just look at their new signings: Sivivatu, Byrne, King, Vosloo, Hines... Same applies to Toulouse. All the big French clubs do is bring in players from the lower clubs, like Picamoles and Parra. The production line isn't there. Toulouse in Europe over the past few seasons have been very conservative by and large. This Gallic rugby is a myth. Players in the England set-up get ahead of themselves? How do you even qualify that? Sounds totally subjective and stereotypical to me. England does have a good youth system, and look at how many of them go on to play premiership rugby - the vast majority. That illustrates why they have a good system.You can only select 15 starters at Test level, however. The Sevens side isn't used as a 15s development tool, hence the 7s contracts. England have tried to play good rugby, they've just been badly coached and selected, like a lot of Test sides. That's not the same as ruining players.

The French pride themselves on forward play unlike Australia. As for kicking, McKenzie created a kicking culture at Stade Francais and it set them back 3 years. Bordeaux, Clermont,Toulouse, Montpellier play attacking rugby. Biarritz and Perpignan are capable too of it. The Top 14 like the AP is attritional and you will get plenty of dour slogfests as teams try to crack HEC spots or avoid relagation it's the nature of the beast. There is a lot of dour Rugby in the cold damp, wet winter months. The past three years games have been effected by snow. It's very difficult to get away wins in the Top 14 so a lot of teams have that mentality where they won't front up away from home. Teams have something to fight for all season long unlike Super Rugby where a handful of teams are out of contention with two months left in the competition. The gap between the top and bottom teams is not different to the AP where teams like Newcastle have no hope against the likes of Leicester and Northampton. Don't forget there are a lot of underperforming teams at the bottom of the Top 14 such is the depth of teams competing for HEC and Finals spots. Biarritz, Bayonne and Perpignan have some good players. Bordeaux have proven you can compete well on a low budget and shorter preparation time. Don't forget they weren't in the top 2 in the ProD2 last season The French mentality is very different to a lot of other countries. They don't travel well in general mind you they are more likely to get a win in NZ unlike the Wallabies. If they don't front up they will fold. When they do they are hard to stop. The players lost respect for their coach Lievremont who was constantly dropping players and berating them in the press. That's no good for team morale. With so much changing in personnel it's very difficult for a player to build themselves in to the side. Philippe Saint Andre will lose his players if he goes down the same route. He doesn't encourage individuality in the side.

Mermoz? Too many injuries

I don't get why Clermont are criticised on this thread for hoarding foreign players. The bulk of the French squad are from Clermont and Toulouse. Traditional clubs like Biarritz and Perpignan are falling behind and in danger of relegation they should get the criticism for dragging the chain in development not Clermont. Toulouse are building up their team again as some are ageing (Servat, Jauzion, etc) they play a linking offload game which Montpellier are using but Montpellier doesn't have the squad depth. Toulouse are still leading the Top 14. The England set up has been a disaster there is plenty of good talent in the AP (has been for some time) as soon as players get in the England team they get full of themselves and play poor rugby. England has a very strong under 20 squad and you have to be in denial if you don't think that's the case. England are the biggest underperformers in international rugby. They haven't turned any of their 7s players in to test internationals. There is plenty of good attacking players in England yet the England team bar the last season under Martin Johnson are unimaginative in the backs. Chris Ashton barely got the ball in the 6 Nations

kingplaymaker, who are these players who aren't being selected? Simple question.

Rugby as a whole is doing fine, I agree. French rugby isn't though.