Five most underrated England rugby players

By Ben S / Roar Guru

Inspired by Frank O’Keefe’s fine article about underrated Wallaby players, I started to consider English players who were similarly viewed.

Problematically, being one of the younger posters on The Roar, my first real love of rugby came about during the 1997 Lions tour. To that extent my piece might have more of a modern feel to it than Frank’s.

In the circumstances, if I refer to players who played in earlier generations, I’ve had to rely on old VHS tapes and DVDs I’ve picked up off the internet, and on autobiographies. I have avoided referring to players I have little information about or have not seen footage of.

1. Jeff Probyn
Despite coming to Test rugby comparatively late (Probyn was actually part of England’s 1987 World Cup squad), Probyn managed to become a mainstay of the England pack well into his 36th year. Undeterred by being a small prop (approximately 95kg) Probyn was widely regarded as one of the best tight forwards in world rugby, focusing on driving on the opposition hooker.

Proybn was in fact such a strong scrummager that he was renowned for being able to hold the scrum on his right leg and strike for the ball with the other.

However, to define Probyn solely as a tight forward would be wrong. I’ve seen him tear around the field on old tapes, turning ball over and diving on loose balls aplenty. It makes me wince when you hear commentators refer to mobile props when you had players like Probyn, Paparemborde, Price, Popplewell, Young and Sole in the amateur era.

It’s obviously conjecture at this point, but his absence from the 1993 Lions tour due to political wranglings was arguably one of the bigger mistakes in modern Lions history.

When men like Paul Rendall, Jason Leonard, Paul Ackford and Dean Richards say Probyn is one of the best players they’ve ever played with, then little more needs to be added. Probyn remains a thought-provoking rugby character post-retirement.

2. Mark Cueto
When Cueto first burst on to the scene he had a pretty special try-scoring ratio in what was a very inconsistent England side. However, when the tries dried up, as they tend to do for most top wingers at some point (Rokocoko, Cohen, Habana), he received a lot of media criticism.

Unfortunately for Cueto he will probably always be remembered for the try that never was in the 2007 World Cup final. However, my abiding memories are from the 2009 end-of-year Tests when England had a horrific injury list.

Ugo Monye started out at full back but then Cueto took over. He was magnificent: safe under the high ball, authoritative and intelligent. Just what a skeleton England side needed, and totally changing the perception of him that he was nothing more than an ageing finisher.

He took that form further the next season and provided some of the most rounded back three play I’ve ever seen from an England winger: again safe under the high ball, making scandalous gains when running the ball back, coming into the line at first receiver (I’ve only seen Sivivatu do this in recent seasons) and making booming clearing kicks off his left boot.

He epitomised class. It was a shame that his career finished on the back of injury during the disappointing 2011 World Cup.

3. Martin Corry
Again, people tend to remember the last years of Corry, and thus he is thought of as this lumbering, stereotypical English yeoman. A kind of modern Roger Uttley.

Corry took on the English captaincy during a difficult period, and had to deal with a head coach out of his depth, erratic selections and the return of Lawrence Dallaglio. Never once did he moan or utter excuses.

In his early years he was a very, very good athlete too. There are videos of him on YouTube tearing down the wing for Leicester Tigers, and who could forget his form for the 2001 Lions.

He turned up, played the next game and forced his way into the Test side at 6, putting in some awesome performances. That summed the man up. He was a ferocious player, unflinching, strong in the tight, utterly committed and relentless. You don’t gain caps on two Lions tours without being a good player.

That he could play lock, blindside and number 8 is further testament to the skill of the man. Very few players could do that at Test level. In my opinion he was massively underrated, and England would have been best served with a back row of Corry-Dallaglio-Hill during their period of dominance.

4. Mike Catt
Jonah Lomu trampled him, he was born in South Africa and he had some of the most erratic games from an England player in many a year during the mid 1990s. However, Catt also developed into one of the best ball-playing inside centres in English history.

Sir Clive Woodward played Catt at fullback, wing and fly half, and eventually, whatever the reason, he was selected at inside centre. Things clicked and the rest is history. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that as soon as Catt played closer to Wilkinson, the England backline really started to develop.

He was clever, tough for a small man, was a great distributor and had a very neat kicking game. Granted Woodward liked to mix and match with Tindall, but Catt was the man who brought out the best in Wilkinson and Greenwood.

Unfortunately for Catt he suffered from injuries, most famously during the 2001 Lions tour, but he carried on experiencing highs and lows with England, and despite being underused by Brian Ashton he ended up taking on the England captaincy in a very good win over France.

Most importantly, Catt was a team man to the very end, and he may well be coaching the England backs during the coming South African tour.

5. Nick Easter
Easter, it seems, is by and large one of the more disliked English players of recent vintage. He doesn’t look like an athlete and is perceived as being ‘old school’ and unprofessional. I totally disagree with this.

Not all players physically look like Pierre Spies, and if he wasn’t fit enough then he wouldn’t have been the starting England number 8 for nearly five years. Likewise, were he to have had a bad attitude then he would not have been the incumbent for so long.

At his best he was never the fastest player around, but he was very clever, and his partnership with Danny Care at Harlequins has been a joy to watch over recent seasons.

What most fans seem to miss is that Easter was allocated a specific role for England. Under Johnson he played very close to the ruck area and made lots of small carries, carrying the side forward. This allowed Tom Croft the space to roam. France deploy the same system with Dusautoir and Harinordoquy, for example.

He had some exceptional games for England, but because he was never seen making 40 yard bursts he was dismissed as a throwback. In the Johnson era England had a comparatively lightweight pack, and I think a player like Easter was an absolute necessity, but more than that I think he was very good at what he did.

The Crowd Says:

2012-04-29T20:51:22+00:00

Frank O'Keeffe

Guest


I've heard people say George Smith is overrated at a website called RuckU, run by Will Carling. The reason is because Hill was just so much better in the Lions series. Martin Johnson put Wilkinson in his all-time XV, inferring that he's the best 10 ever. There was a UK website that used to exist (I forget what it's called) that rated the top hundred or so players ever, and Dallagio was in the top 20.

AUTHOR

2012-04-29T10:32:49+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


I genuinely have never heard anybody say that Smith was overrated because Hill outplayed him. Mate, who calls Wilkinson or Dallaglio the best players ever? Who? Look at Carlings's top 10. The point is it has players from his era in it, as you would expect. Is Schmidt one of the best 50 players ever? I don't see what the 10 Kiwis has to do with anything either?

2012-04-28T21:36:21+00:00

Frank O'Keeffe

Guest


Johnson said that about Smith because Smith had a great first half in the 1st Test - something nobody talks about because the Lions won, and Hill had a good second half. If you talk to people these days it's, 'George Smith is overrated because Richard Hill outplayed him.' If Hill outplayed him badly, I don't know why Johnson was so worried about George Smith at halftime. To be fair, Hill was supreme in that second half. The 2003 side was a great side... the 2002 side even better, But people call Dallagio the best 8 ever, Wilkinson the best 10 ever, Leonard makes XV's. Hill and Johnson probably get the praise they deserve. Maybe there's a few players that aren't overrated, but they certainly aren't underrated, making any list difficult to compile. Yes I've seen Laonard make many XV's. Spiro Zavos put Leonard in his best team from the 00s, so it's not just in the UK. I agree Bill McLaren isn't biased. I love Bill McLaren. He just overrated Andrew. Will Carling's top 50 had 9 Englishmen and 10 New Zealanders... hmm! He put Leonard quite highly too.

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T17:50:34+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


I agree, there are exceptions, and rugby journalism is simply a parallel to regular journalism. All black and white and no grey.

2012-04-28T17:35:37+00:00

BennO

Guest


I reckon I don't disagree with you too much (I think there are exceptions) but I think it's symptomatic of all forms of journalism today. It also explains the popularity of sites like this and GAGR with died in the wool fans. Tho as you point out hyperbole happens here too!

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T16:59:36+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


I'm a fan of Rodber myself, but it's a big claim to suggest he was as good as Dallaglio, I think Dallaglio is a little overrated, but he was far more dynamic and athletic than Rodber. I know Rodber dabbled in 7s, but he never looked the mot natural carrier or ball runner IMHO. I also think Dallaglio could cover 6 far more easily than Rodber could cover 8.

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T16:56:03+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


If you peruse the English online newspapers, most rugby hacks are panned by fans in the public commentary section. I genuinely believe that most journalists (of all nationalities) are an embarrassment to the sport who have no real connection to the fans.

2012-04-28T16:48:25+00:00

Rugby Fan

Roar Guru


Rodber is certainly no forgotten man, but I think he's often seen as a yeoman player who hit a couple of peaks, rather than a genuinely great player who lost his way. He was easily as good as Dallaglio but it's the latter man who is an English icon. I'm not looking to excuse Rodber's lack of consistency. Dallaglio deserves all his credit. Rodber's career may well have been blown off course by that red card but Dallaglio faced a worse indignity. He was stripped off the captaincy after making a fool of himself in that tabloid sting but that didn't lessen his commitment in matches. I'm slightly worried here about revealing my evident man-love for Rodber but it was a joy to see him thrive in the atmosphere of the Lions as he once did for England.

2012-04-28T16:47:05+00:00

BennO

Guest


I agree with you. I thought sheek was trying to be ironic in his comment about the English scribes!

2012-04-28T16:23:59+00:00

Rugby Fan

Roar Guru


I don't think anyone believes Leonard was the best prop in world rugby. He isn't just lauded for longevity, though. He's one of the few props who could play at the highest level on either side of the scrum. He reinvented himself to a couple of times: once from the amateur to professional era, when he had to put down the pies, and again after serious injury. He was also a great team man. Telfer and McGeechan praised Leonard for his selfless work with the Lions squad after being passed over for a starting spot. Opponents always respected him. After the final whistle in the 2003 Cup, he made a bee-line to see how Ben Darwin was doing when he spotted the Wallaby prop on the touchlines in a neck brace from his semi-final injury. When Leonard win plaudits, it's a much for his character as his playing career.

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T16:06:12+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


I don't think Woodman was underrated, VC. Possibly Tindall, mostly by fans. Agree re: Ben Kay.

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T16:00:25+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


Frank, I agree re: Flood. Aside from Carter I think he is the best attacking Test 10 in world rugby. Richard Hill was an awesome forward, one of the best ever IMO. Just because Johnson said the Lions had to contain Smith doesn't have anything to do with Hill's ability. All it means is that Smith was considered a key man for the Wallabies, which he was. I don't think it's a coincidence that he only had a significant effect on the Tests when Hill was taken out by Grey in the 2nd Test. The only player not to be dropped by SCW too. So many players have said he's the best player they've played with our against. It's not a coincidence. At his peak Vickery was astonishingly good. Never the best scrummager, but he made up for that around the pitch. By 2009 he was a shadow of himself. It was a massive error on McGeechan's part to select him to start on the Lions tour. That said, Mtawarira's scrummaging was totally illegal, and Bryce Lawrence apologised to the Lions midweek after the game. Re: England - most of the 2001-03 squad were in their prime and were some of the best English players in English history. It would be hard to say that Thompson, Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Dallaglio, Wilkinson, Catt, Greenwood, Robinson and Lewsey were overrated. Let's be fair here, I doubt many UK media scribes (who are generally not well received by the majority of fans) would put Leonard in their XVs, Bill McLaren is hardly biased, he just selected Andrew, and Will Carling's 50 players are here (hardly controversial): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/2320582/Will-Carling-My-50-top-rugby-players.html

2012-04-28T11:48:24+00:00

Atawhai Drive

Guest


Ah, Johnno . . . And they said irony was dead. Maybe they were right.

2012-04-28T11:10:21+00:00

Johnno

Guest


Atawhai Drive, I am back I have had a torn hamstring and was a having a rest, not happy . But yes Jake White for wallaby coach, it is the same thing as with the south African Micky Arthur issue in cricket. In cricket the best man in the land Micky Arthur coaching WA, and now coaching aussies in cricket. Teflon Tim could continue no longer. And same with Deans and Link. How is Jake Whtie the best man for the wallaby job in ht eland just like micky arthur , how can he be ignored any longer. Jake White a world cup winning coach , has a much better coaching record than Deans or Link. And in Deans contract he can be sacked.

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T11:07:09+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


Shaw is effectively retired now that he is playing in France. The way I see Easter is that Dean Richards, Brian Ashton and Martin Johnson all rated him, which is enough for me. I think he had some excellent games for England, but was a divisive figure in terms of media reaction. He was fiercely strong, controlled the ball intelligently at the base of the scrum, was a good support player, had neat hands, and had no qualms about doing the dirty work close to the ruck. With a lightweight pack he ground out the hard yards time and time again.

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T11:00:45+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


That's unnecessarily (and typically) glib. Cueto's all round game was of far greater value than scoring a try every other match. Did you not see his performances in the 2009 and 2010 end of year Tests or the 2011 6N?

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T10:57:06+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


'England changed their tactics was due to an acknowledgement they couldn’t beat us with their conventional game.' And yet how much possession did the forwards win that match. Why would you take the British media personally? Do you think English fans take hold any water with what Growden says? Did I imagine the Spiro Zavos 'Robbie Deans and the Golden Generation' articles?

AUTHOR

2012-04-28T10:51:33+00:00

Ben S

Roar Guru


Totally agree with point 5. Very good post. I can't really comment on Rees or Redman, but is Rodber underrated? I know what you mean re: MIA, but I always thought he was well considered. Incidentally, I think Eric Miller was pencilled in as the starting 8 on the 1997 Lions tour, but was ruled out with injury prior to the first Test.

2012-04-28T09:18:22+00:00

Atawhai Drive

Guest


How about Andy Ripley? The English selectors called time on him prematurely, even if his place went to Roger Uttley. The one thing missing from this particular debate is Johnno working around via the 2003 World Cup to the Wallabies, and then making the case (again) for Jake White to be the next Wallabies coach.

2012-04-28T08:39:27+00:00

ohtani's jacket

Guest


At the time Wilkinson arguably was the greatest first five of all-time. There was nothing overrated about that English side.

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