Is this the end for Lance Armstrong?

"Until one reads the book Every Second Counts! one should not badger him," Nonsense. If he is accused of cheating, the relevant authorities have every right to badger him, and they don't need to read any book. "his story is true and one that one needs to read to really understand what he has been through and to have done and win those titles." His story is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether he cheated. If he did, then IMO he is just as bad as any other cheat, cancer or no cancer. "Justice prevails when a person has substantial evidence and beyond reasonable doubt still exists" This isn't a court of law. Reasonable doubt has no place in it. Whether you want to call it justice, though, is up to you. However it is what it is.

Hi amazonfan, Thankyou! Until one reads the book Every Second Counts! one should not badger him, his story is true and one that one needs to read to really understand what he has been through and to have done and win those titles. Justice prevails when a person has substantial evidence and beyond reasonable doubt still exists!

I think you'll find Jimbo there are PLENTY of people who would argue that what Lance Armstrong achieved was greater than what Eddy Merckx achieved. This is from the first paragraph of Merckxs wiki. "The French magazine Vélo called him 'the most accomplished rider that cycling has ever known.' The American publication, VeloNews, called him 'the greatest and most successful cyclist of all time.' He won the Tour de France five times, won all the monuments of cycling at least twice, with 19 monument victories in all, won the Giro d'Italia five times and the Vuelta a España once, won the world championship once as an amateur and three times as a professional, and broke the world hour record". hmmmm seems like a slightly more complete and impressive palmares.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. Personally, I just completely disagree. As an example, I'm not disputing that his surviving cancer, and his domination (should he have been clean) was extremely impressive. I just don't see how his having had cancer is relevant.

I don't think too many people would argue that what Lance Armstrong achieved was greater than what Eddy Merckx achieved, regardless of any doping accusations.

It's all good re: the multitude of other athletes that have never tested positive and now have come forward and/or found guilty. I'm trying to view this specific case as seperate from those, but clearly it's possible to be a "cheat" and never officially test positive. Like many others have said, the "cheaters" are typically ahead of the testers. Given the sworn testimony of the former teammates (most of which have little or nothing to gain by lying) it definitely appears as if everything wasn't on the up and up in LA's camp. I admit I do not understand the inner workings and procedures that the USADA must follow in a case like this, and even as I'm learning I still don't agree with it. The idea that you can accuse someone and then not give them access to all of the evidence, the sworn testimonies, etc. so that one might properly prepare a defense definitely feels wrong to me. I will say that it's human nature to want to bring down the best, and I can assign reasonable doubt (even though it's becoming clear that doesn't necessarily matter in a USADA case) to anything they might have against LA. A good % of people in the anti-LA group simply don't like him and want to see him brought down because they are convinced he's a "cheat" without really knowing anything for absolute certainty. Arrogant and cheater are not synonymous. I'll also concede that I have been swayed into believing the federal investigation and the USADA charges are linked or one in the same and it's becoming clear that is also not the case. That is the power of forums like these, so long as you have an open mind. Regardless of all of this I will continue to believe LA is a once in a generation athlete who was at the top of his game and succeeded due to his training methods, his equipment collaborations, and his team. That is, until such a time he is proven otherwise, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Hi amazon and sittingbison, I just wanted to say that i am not mindless and I don't know you for you to have a dig at me and what I decide to put as my opinion! Everybody is entitiled to their opinion and maybe if you read the book Every Second Counts you will see why I said what I have said because it is true about Lance! Those of us who read and write do have brains and use them very well! I don't put mindless drivel as you put it either! Thankyou Matt!

Bones the case was unilaterally dropped by USDA BIrotte Jr, much to the surprise and chagrin of the investigators and USADA, when it was widely expected that charges were imminent. His reasoning has never been explained. One thing about this case is it was a criminal investigation of fraud, not drug use per se (although the fraud was that federal funds had been used to finance a specific drug regimen). There is a completely different burden of proof involved than a WADA or USADA investigation of drug use in sport

no bones you have misjudged me. I have been consistently trying to counterbalance uninformed or misguided statements about Lance that are self perpetuating. Let me be absolutely clear, I have no agenda for or against Lance. I like you have my opinion on the matter, which is somewhat different to an agenda. Like you all I want is for the issue to be finally dealt with, one way or the other. The problem is it has NOT been dealt with and left to fester. And I completely agree with you, it wont stop me or anyone else I suspect enjoying their cycling or competing in racing, or cycling being popular in general. You ask for facts bones. There have been many facts and fallacies thrown about on this very forum the past few days, and it is laughable to me that when someone has gone to the trouble of stating one it is then conveniently completely ignored only two or three posts down, especially with inane bleatings like "maria" who apparently has not bothered to read a single post. The simplest fact is his constant claim of never failing a drug test, when he did in fact fail a drug test for corticosteroids in the first few stages of his comeback Tour in 1999, the once infamous but now largely forgotten saddlesore cream episode. He retrospectively produced a medical exemption to explain using a cream containing the substance. None of this is in dispute, its just been shall we say "saddlesoaped" lol or spin doctored away to the point almost every article about him states somewhere "he has never tested positive". One fact that does not sit well with many observers bones is that Lance has never once denied using PEDs, to the hundreds of questions put to him on the subject. He has replied on every occasion "I have never tested positive" when all he has to say is "No". This is usually said in conjunction "I am the most tested athlete on the planet", which is unverifiable but sounds convincing - besides being completely irrelevant. This is where all the statements about Marion Jones and a litany of cyclists comes into it, because none of them have ever tested positive either, yet they have still been found guilty of and subsequently admitted to using PEDs. Bones, another fact is that the criminal case being brought to bear against him was not put to a jury and discarded. it was unilaterally shut down by a single district attorney (Birotte) despite a widespread belief that charges were imminent, a decision that astounded the investigative team and USADA. Lances lawyers have subsequently pretended that this criminal case and the USADA case are one and the same, that due judicial process is not being followed, etc which is a complete fabrication as they know full well the USADA case is following established guidelines that Lance is a signatory to. A fact bomes is he won five of the last seven stages (three in a row) of the 2004 tour, all over mountains, including the ITT up Alpe DHuez and the 55km ITT. I have posted the results of the top ten finishes for each of the five stages above, and which have been busted for PEDs. It makes intriguing reading. I will not offer any of the hearsay as "facts", such as the 1999 frozen samples being found to contain EPO, or the sworn testimony of team mates and former friends, or the apparent $465k paid by Lance to Ferrari in 2006 despite supposedly severing ties in 2004, the number of disgraced podium riders, the number of former team mates that have tested positive. One thing that irks me bones are the methods that Lance uses, two examples being having a constant stream of PR blogposts about how great he is, and bullying into submission through legal action people that have no ability to defend themselves, to whit his former assistant Emmo O'Reilly.

You can't disregard it. But just b/c someone says you are something or did something - does not make it so. The question has to be asked after Landis and Hamilton gave sworn evidence - why federal prosecutors did not continue their case. What is there that we have all not seen or heard about.

Did Lance not shake your hand or something Sittngbison - you are clearly a hater of this man in every way conceivable. You assume he is guilty. You have given him absolutely no presumption of innocence. Again I ask - Give me hard facts. Give me positive tests or give me his sworn testimony under oath that he is guilty. I don't care what other athlete's, Marion Jones included, have said or done that got them into trouble. Let's stay on point and just focus on what you need to have your vindication - which you so clearly want. For me - I hope he is not guilty and this issue is buried once and for all. If he is - so be it. I will not loose a wink of sleep if he is. It will not stop me riding and racing nor will it stop the huge momentum the sport has.

Lance isn't being punished before a fair trial. Blood samples showed irregularities and where this is the case, it is normal to suspend someone. Also, as others have said, people like Marion Jones never tested positive. Even Ben Johnson never tested positive till 1988, and he admitted he was drugged to the eyeballs up to then. Former team-mates have given sworn evidence that they saw and participated in Lance doping. How can you disregard that?

Thanks for responding Matt, you are dead right we are all entitled to our opinions. A couple of points that have been raised and clarified previously: 1) Many athletes have been found guilty of doping, or confessed, but have never been "caught". The most obvious and well known is Marion Jones because she was jailed for perjury, in cycling there have been many, Miller, Basso, Ullrich etc 2) he has fallen foul of his own anti drug agency. It is for this reason he cannot compete in any activity they have jurisdiction. 3) they are not court of law, they are an agency with operational guidelines, to which he is a signatory. All legal talk of double jeopardy, fair trials etc is bluff and bluster by his lawyer attack dog mouthpiece to garner public sympathy, he knows full well they are operating precisely within those guidelines.

Not affiliated with LA at all, and have only ever posted on this site. Not trying to convince anyone of anything. His case is not going to be won or lost in this forum, we're all just voicing opinions. I'm just tired of everyone assuming this guy is guilty of something simply because he's been accused of it. I agree that if he's guilty, he's guilty and should be punished. It won't take away from the excitement of the TDF's I watched him win or his philanthropic efforts (and yes I agree with you amazonfan that this shouldn't add to his guilt or innocence, but it is part of the reason I think the way I do). LA just happens to be a polarizing figure and it's hard for people on the other side to even begin to beleive he might be innocent because "everybody else was doing it, and how could he be so good?" No I don't think he should keep his titles if found guilty, but where does it end? Ok so he's acquitted in this case re: the USADA then what? Is that the end of it? I just feel like he continually gets accused because of his success and he'll continue to get accused until whoever it is gets the answer they're looking for. And I highly doubt if/when he is found guilty they will continue to work down the list as vigorously as they've pursued LA. It'll likely stop with him. Per my original post which I stand by I do think it's unfair to keep him from competing in an unrelated sport now, after he's retired from professional cycling, while the investigation is ongoing. What purpose does that serve? Again he's being punished before a fair trial. If evidence (heresay and witness testimony boils down to he-said/he-said) existed it would have already come to light.

Forget arguing amazon, "Maria" is almost certainly one of Lances PR people whose job is to infiltrate public forums and perpetrate his spin. I've never seen more mindless drivel than the "Maria" posts on this and the previous Lance thread. God help us all if "her" inane platitudes are the extent of LancePolitik. It really peeves me the pathetic extents to which he and they will sink. As to Matt, I'm not sure I'd have to go back over his other posts. Could well be the same as "Maria" though. *edit* yup Matt is another Lance PR spin Dr, I have read exactly the same drivel all over the net on different forums,, it really does become tiresome. Sigh %( Get back in your hole Lance PR dept., we don't need or want you infecting the roar or any other forum with your inane propaganda

"Wow, ok you’ve made it clear which side you’re on." Why act so shocked? That's pretty bizarre. Especially considering your original post (which actually shocked me). Regarding the side I am on, if you mean that I am against him, then no, you're wrong. I will make it clear now what side I am on. The side that I am on is against cheats. Armstrong may be a cheat, he may not be a cheat (I never said he did cheat), but if he did, then I'm against him. Furthermore if he did cheat, then IMO he should be cast into the same sporting garbage bin as Landis, Contador and anybody else who cheated. "Fact: LA never failed a test (regardless of how many, the claim of 500 has been disputed). Fact: the USADA’s case is based on witness testimony and no physical evidence of PED’s/blood transfusions or anything else beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be some financial transactions highlighted, some former teammate bashing, and some smoke and mirrors. At the end of the day, if he were to have ever failed a test he would have been notified/banned/stripped that day. We’re going on 10-15 years ago of supposed eye witness testimony from quite frankly, some pretty shaky and disgraced witnesses." That's all very well, although it should be noted that the USADA does not require 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' They simply needs to show "clear and concise" evidence. http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8051461/usada-actions-lance-armstrong-start-series-events-strip-tour-de-france-titles Can I just point out that I never declared him to be a cheat. I never made any specific comments regarding the case against him. What I have said, in all of my posts, was if Armstrong cheated. So I don't know what you're trying to convince me of. If it's of his innocence, then I will be convinced of such should he be acquitted. Although, in all honesty, his innocence and guilt does not concern me so much as the possibility of a champion sportsman to be found to have cheated, and that there are people who suggest that the investigation not proceed for bizarre reasons. "I’d be willing to bet that if Floyd Landis or Alberto Contador had done a fraction of the good that LA has done with their fame, the court of public opinion would be slightly different and eager to forgive." Well, forgive me for not caring, but I couldn't care less 1)what good Armstrong or Landis/Contador have done, and 2)what the court of public opinion thinks. The court of public opinion isn't going to try Armstrong and nor will his good be taken into account. That said, the court of public opinion isn't all in his favor. I've been on quite a few sports/news sites where a lot of people already think he's guilty. "Fact: both of those guys failed tests." Yes, it may mean that they don't attract the sympathy of an Armstrong, however it's still irrelevant. ASADA doesn't need a failed test to rule against Armstrong, and if they believe they have sufficient evidence to proceed against him, there should be no objections to them doing so. Certainly not along the lines of 'Let the man live his life and continue to do good things.' "If LA had ever failed a test what you’d be reading is “well, he cheated to win, and he should be stripped of his titles and fined, but we forgive him because he’s helped millions”." In your original post, you stated 'Accept that this WAS a sport where you needed to use performance enhancers to compete. I’d hardly call that “cheating”.' While you didn't talk about his helping millions, you basically said that it doesn't matter whether he cheated or not. You also implied, at the start of your original post, that he may as well keep his titles, since everybody below him probably cheated, and talked about him doing good things. That alone suggests that you are willing to forgive him because of his good works. Then there was Maria Szczerba's post. Matt, forgiveness is a personal and subjective thing. If you want to forgive him (should he be found to have cheated), it's really none of my business. However, and this has been my contention in many of my posts, it does not mean that the investigation should not proceed. That is all I am saying. "So in the court of public opinion (which is what these forums are, period), yes that does matter." The court of public opinion can think what it likes. NickF said 'This really is about those who like Lance Armstrong and those who really, really hate him.' He's wrong. While I don't love Armstrong (he was a great cyclist, and if clean, his domination of the Tour de France was one of sport's legendary achievements), I certainly don't hate him. I do however hate cheats, and so I'll be very interested in how the case unfolds.

amazonfan- Wow, ok you've made it clear which side you're on. Fact: LA never failed a test (regardless of how many, the claim of 500 has been disputed). Fact: the USADA's case is based on witness testimony and no physical evidence of PED's/blood transfusions or anything else beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be some financial transactions highlighted, some former teammate bashing, and some smoke and mirrors. At the end of the day, if he were to have ever failed a test he would have been notified/banned/stripped that day. We're going on 10-15 years ago of supposed eye witness testimony from quite frankly, some pretty shaky and disgraced witnesses. I'd be willing to bet that if Floyd Landis or Alberto Contador had done a fraction of the good that LA has done with their fame, the court of public opinion would be slightly different and eager to forgive. Fact: both of those guys failed tests. If LA had ever failed a test what you'd be reading is "well, he cheated to win, and he should be stripped of his titles and fined, but we forgive him because he's helped millions". So in the court of public opinion (which is what these forums are, period), yes that does matter.

"I agree with Matt – Let Lance live his life and after coming back like he did with his cancer! I would not rubbish him, he was with a team training while he had cancer, even threw up while competing and having his cancer treatment" And his having cancer is relevant because? Maria, if someone cheats, their having an illness does not let them off the hook. "and still supporting his family and then developing the Lance Armstrong Foundation, he has done good things" Many people support their families. He's not special in that regard. As for developing the Lance Armstrong Foundation and doing 'good things', so what? Should we start evaluating potential cheats on what kind of lives they lead? "and everybody makes mistakes" If that's true, then you should have no problem with Contador and Landis (among others) getting back their titles. Afterall, everybody makes mistakes. "he is a and will always be a good person and a great cyclist!!!" His being a good or bad person is not the issue. As for being a great cyclist, if he doped, then no, I don't think he was a great cyclist. "Lance you will have my support with all that you do and the Cancer Foundation as without your awareness and people like me and the Cancer Council SA the people around the globe would not have a strong foundation to realise their dreams and goals!" The Cancer Foundation is completely irrelevant. He may be doing great things in the fight against cancer, but he also may be a cheat; and if he is a cheat, I hope they throw the book at him. "Lance lives on with his Cancer Foundation and the awareness he brings around the globe and also what he has done for cycling, why not focus on the positives! instead of the negatives for once!" Well, because the negatives are pretty important. Alleged cheating can't be brushed under the carpet simply because of his cancer foundation. Plus, you could make a similar argument for many sporting cheats ('they're inspirational, they bring joy to millions of people, why not focus on the positives instead of the negatives?') Maria, he may be one of your heroes. You may worship the ground that he walks on. However, do you really believe that being a cancer survivor and having a charity foundation are reason enough to avoid facing cheating allegations? I find that to be extraordinary.

Hi all, I agree with Matt - Let Lance live his life and after coming back like he did with his cancer! I would not rubbish him, he was with a team training while he had cancer, even threw up while competing and having his cancer treatment and still supporting his family and then developing the Lance Armstrong Foundation, he has done good things and everybody makes mistakes, he is a and will always be a good person and a great cyclist!!! Sports today and anything has too much politics and people these days are not left alone to enjoy what they enjoy or be with their family and friends and I say let sleeping dogs lie on this and if anything - he has helped a lot of cancer patients around the globe realise that they can overcome any obstacle despite the in adversity and diversity in today's world! The world needs to accept people as then are and move on and let people live their lives! This subject has dragged on like most things in today's world! Lance you will have my support with all that you do and the Cancer Foundation as without your awareness and people like me and the Cancer Council SA the people around the globe would not have a strong foundation to realise their dreams and goals! Thankyou and Innocent and until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt and their is no doubt and if you speculate about something how can it be found true! or even for that matter reasonable doubt! Beyond Reasonable doubt means having all the facts before presenting the case and not speculating or assuming something about someone or something and without substantial evidence, Lance lives on with his Cancer Foundation and the awareness he brings around the globe and also what he has done for cycling, why not focus on the positives! instead of the negatives for once!

Hi all, I agree with Matt - Let Lance live his life and after coming back like he did with his cancer! I would not rubbish him, he was with a team training while he had cancer, even threw up while competing and having his cancer treatment and still supporting his family and then developing the Lance Armstrong Foundation, he has done good things and everybody makes mistakes, he is a and will always be a good person and a great cyclist!!! Sports today and anything has too much politics and people these days are not left alone to enjoy what they enjoy or be with their family and friends and I say let sleeping dogs lie on this and if anything - he has helped a lot of cancer patients around the globe realise that they can overcome any obstacle despite the in adversity and diversity in today's world! The world needs to accept people as then are and move on and let people live their lives! This subject has dragged on like most things in today's world! Lance you will have my support with all that you do and the Cancer Foundation as without your awareness and people like me and the Cancer Council SA the people around the globe would not have a strong foundation to realise their dreams and goals! Thankyou and Innocent and until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt and their is no doubt and if you speculate about something how can it be found true! or even for that matter reasonable doubt!