Yesterday, my friend and colleague Sam Brown laid out a credible case for why UFC 148 headliner Anderson Silva should be considered the best fighter in the relatively brief history of MMA.
Today, it’s my job to make the case against Silva, a man who is unbeaten in 14 appearances in the UFC Octagon and who has held the middleweight title he’ll defend Saturday night in Las Vegas against Chael Sonnen for nearly six years.
The reason I wouldn’t put Silva at the top of the list of all-time greats in MMA is simply that he’s in the wrong division.
When you look back at Silva run of dominance in the UFC, you see a couple of fights in the light heavyweight division, and more than a couple less than stellar challengers for the middleweight title.
Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, and Demian Maia were all secondary options opposite Silva; replacement fighters when Plan A fell apart or couldn’t come together in time.
It’s not Silva’s fault that there wasn’t greater talent to be lined up opposite him at the time, but part of why he opted to step into the cage at light heavyweight on two occasions is that there was no one for him to face at middleweight.
And let’s not make too much of beating the stuffing out of James Irvin either, okay? Stopping Forrest Griffin was certainly a much more impressive task, but – as I’ll argue later this week – the former Ultimate Fighter winner is one of the more overrated fighters in recent memory as well.
(It’s nothing personal, I just think he benefitted from a perfect storm of charisma, TUF timing, and a couple solid wins, but that’s an article for another day.)
Back to Silva.
I find it fitting that we’re having this discussion now, on the eve of his rematch with Sonnen, as prior to his first fight with “The American Gangsta” there were a lot of people arguing that Georges St-Pierre had passed the middleweight champion for top spot on both the mythical pound-for-pound rankings and the race to be crown the best to ever step in the cage.
While St-Pierre’s lack of activity and current injury situation, coupled with Silva’s return to finishing opponents in spectacular fashion following “The Demian Maia Incident” has him back on top, a case could certainly be made for the French-Canadian welterweight champion to be ahead of Silva.
GSP has fewer career losses (2) than Silva (4), and has avenged both of those defeats, having put the boots to Matt Serra in their rematch, and topping Matt Hughes twice since losing to him at UFC 50 in just his eighth professional bout.
That’s the other thing: while Silva has had a few lay-ups over the years – fights that were against mediocre competition due to a lack of depth in the division – St-Pierre has been piling up wins against the best the welterweight division has to offer for the last eight years in the UFC, and few would argue that there has been a more historically deep division than the 170-pound ranks.
Truthfully, I think a valid case can be made for both fighters. If you’re going strictly on wins and losses, it’s hard to argue against Silva and his undefeated reign of terror in the UFC.
If you want to look at quality of opposition throughout their career, I give the edge to my fellow Canadian, and not just because we share a home and native land either; he’s consistently fought the best there is in the deepest, most competitive division in the sport.
Don’t expect this debate to end any time soon either – Silva and St-Pierre will be neck-and-neck for years to come if they both keep winning, and Jon Jones will surely join them if he continues to dominate the competition the way he has of late as well.
Sam thinks Silva is the best ever, and I’d cast my vote for GSP. What do you think? Let us know below in the comments section.
Follow The Roar’s UFC Expert E. Spencer Kyte on Twitter (@spencerkyte).
S-Dowg
Guest
yeah i hear what you're saying. I just think it would be great to see what would happen if he did compete at LHW permanently. That would really be ....... awesome
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
But it's not like we have this small sample size. He's won 14 straight in the UFC, sports a phenomenal record, and has moved up twice, once clowning a former champion. We know his true potential - he's awesome; one of the best ever.
S-Dowg
Guest
My bad I put words in your mouth with the "dominate LHW with ease" thing, pardon me. I agree with what you say, that he "could fight at LHW with ease". Totally agreed. But those 2 wins against those 2 opponents don't come close to putting him in exclusive company. ANd yeah I was just pointing out that my understanding was that this was a pound-for-pound GOAT debate not a "who's bigger" debate. Hah then it would definitely be 'known'. But yes I do think you're right about what most folk would say with regard to this match-up.
S-Dowg
Guest
Damien - i have no idea haha ESK - Because as it says in your column he's "in the wrong division" and his level of competition hasn't been as high. Sonnen has said similar things to this in the past also; it just makes sense to my ears. If he was in LWH with the level of competition that Jones has seen then we would find out.
MELB NSW 4 lyfe
Guest
I am a huge Fedor fan and an huge PRIDE fan at the time there was no one equal to the feats Fedor accomplished. Your right his light dimmed with the losses and for me it was not so much the losses but the fact that he came into each fight with the same mentality and hadnt adjusted to take into account that like MMA, its evolved. In his prime he was proficient in all facets and was able to counter Big Nog BJJ and smart enough not to engage Mirko's striking but wow, it looked like he aged in minutes and the flailing arms that would nail his opponents previous were a few steps behind the guys now. Silva seems to get better as he fights and the fact no one seems to be able to figure him out (bar Mr Sonnen UFC 117) or implement a gameplan effective enough pushes his case further for GOAT
MELB NSW 4 lyfe
Guest
hard to argue given also the sport is still very much in its infancy that the majority of guys making big waves are literally continuing from the "pioneers" The Gracies, the Shamrocks, 90s UFC, PRIDE FC..anything that happened in this time was a feat in itself. Silva is rare in that he has been around the globe plying his trade and in the top market for his chosen profession he has not only dominated but changed the face of MMA. He beats his opponents and rarely uses the same gameplan twice.. yes given he has been sour in a few but that was more psychological then anything. It might be early to give him the title but a few years from now his feats will match up against anyone ever
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
The division looks weak because there is one dominant fighter (Silva) and a bunch of good, but flawed fighters below him. You can have a ton of entertaining fights with the guys who rank 2 through 10, but none of them pose a real threat to Silva. If you take Anderson out, the division is competitive, but there is no one who can dominant; everyone has flaws. If you took Jones out of the LHW division, two or three guys are still head-and-shoulders above the rest. You can't say that about MW. GSP doesn't fight guys twice because it's close - he fought Hughes twice (well, three times actually) because Hughes was the champion and still a top WW; he fought Penn twice because he was a top challenger and then the LW champ who wanted revenge. Koscheck twice made sense from a rankings and TUF standpoint. Additionally, the talk of him going back through the division came up because he'd already exhausted all his possible challenger — he'd beaten everyone, and there weren't any new opponents stepping up.
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
For me, depth has always been about the number of high caliber competitors in the division, how I see everyone else in the division measuring up with the champion, and whether I can see any of those guys having extended reigns atop the division. Yushin Okami was considered the #2 or #3 middleweight in the world for a long time, but he's never beaten truly elite competition, having lost to Rich Franklin, Sonnen, and then Silva, before getting stopped by Tim Boetsch in February. Vitor Belfort has ONE win in the UFC middleweight division, over Yoshihiro Akiyama, an undersized guy who is now fighting at WW, unsuccessfully I might add. Michael Bisping thinks he's a title contender, but he's never beaten anyone of great substance either, losing to Wanderlei Silva and Sonnen. The one guy I could have seen making a run atop the division if not for Silva was Dan Henderson - great wrestling, big power, savvy veteran - but he couldn't get passed Silva, and then was allowed to walk after beating Bisping. The rest of the current top 10 is made up of guys who are flawed and probably wouldn't have extended runs as champions - as much as I like guys like Brian Stann, Rousimar Palhares, and Boetsch, they're not what I would consider title contenders; all have flaws and/or are unproven against top flight competition. Make sense so far? Taking the LHW division, you had a clear upper echelon of fighters who traded the title for a number of years: Rampage, Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, and Shogun Rua. Yes, Jon Jones has dominated all of those guys, but that doesn't diminish how talented they are; it shows how damn talented Jones is. Rampage has lost a step now, but any of the other three could potentially dominate the division if not for Jones, as could Dan Henderson if given the chance. All of those guys would run through (and have run through) the middle tier talent in the division; the only guy who has beaten them is Jones or another guy in that list, unlike MW, where Maia beat Sonnen, Boestch beat Okami, etc.The best wins of those MW contenders don't compare to the best wins of the potential LHW challengers. The other part of it is just the eyeball test - you can just see how competitive and deep certain divisions are, like lightweight. Most fights from the middle of the division up are highly competitive and coin-flip fights. Same with WW. That's my explanation. Hope it makes sense.
Seriously, Who says Oi?
Guest
The P stands for Patrick? For some reason, that blows my mind. How did I never look into that?
Daniel
Guest
The middleweight looks weak because Anderson is there... Imagine if he didn't exist. Who would be champion? Sonnen? He would beat people in close decisions, and everyone saying its a great fight because it was close. The fighters below seem evenly matched. Instead, this superhuman of a man exist that demolishes everything, makes 'great' fights look average and therefore raises the deviation of what makes a great fighter in that division. Take him out, and its a 'tough' division. LHW is going the same way with bones... Rashad, Rampage, Machida were considered the 'best' now everyone is saying they are 'old' or 'past' it, when infact I'm sure they're capable of a close fight between each other, but when they fight Jones... well they are not so good. GSP has to fight guys twice because of how close the previous fights were, he dominates, but doesn't own them, he doesn't stand so tall that it's insurmountable. He's just a machine that is trained to grind on someone's weakness. Bones and Silva well they are just awesome to watch, and deliver in the most remarkable fashion... GSP... oh another jab.. jab... takedown... yawn.
Jimbo
Guest
I'm just wondering, what makes a division "deep"? 1.) Is it the spread of fighter skill sets and quality of those skill sets? If so, to mention a few, Silva has fought and been champion in a division with: - Olympic level wrestlers (e.g. Henderson, Sonnen) - World class BJJ (e.g. Maia, *Palhares) - World class strikers (e.g. Belfort, Marquardt, **Murray) - Well rounded fighters (e.g. Franklin, Okami) * Hasn't fought against, but is in this division. ** Non-UFC comp 2.) Is it the absence of a standout fighter? If so, this means that the competition is even, it doesn't mean it is high quality or low quality. The LHW division of the UFC was promoted as being the deepest for a long time. Then along came Jon Jones and suddenly he is destroying the best of the division. All of a sudden he has made it look a lot more like Middleweight, where Silva stands head and shoulders above all. 3.) Is it how big the fighters names are? If so, then that's more an issue of promotion and the hearts and minds of the audience more than anything else (AKA hype). I would like to know what makes the Middleweight division so weak in general opinion?
RebelRanger
Guest
Let's hope 'The Spider' doesn't make the same mistake as Fedor, Liddel, Ali..
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
Maia's triangle on Sonnen is still my all-time favorite submission in the UFC - the way he set it up was brilliant, and I wish there were more fans out there who appreciated the intricacies of the grappling game. As for Diaz-GSP vs. GSP-Condit: I actually think Diaz-GSP wouldn't be all that great, as I don't see Nick being able to do much from the bottom with St-Pierre suffocating him from top position. I think the same goes for Condit when they fight, though I actually give Condit a better chance of catching GSP off-guard with something in the stand-up. Nick is somewhat predictable in his offense, whereas Condit will throw all that "spinning s*@$" Diaz didn't like in their bout at UFC 143, plus things like the flying knee he cracked DHK with at UFC 132 last summer. I don't necessarily agree that it will be a "fight not to lose" battle though. I think GSP's strategy and mindset is more "fight to win without putting yourself in danger," and that's not exactly "fight not to lose," though I do understand where you're coming from. My thing is - and I'll definitely expand on this at a later date here - the onus in those situations shouldn't be on GSP to change his strategy; rather his opponents who are on the wrong end of a one-sided beating. GSP didn't need to stop jabbing Koscheck's orbital bone into oblivion; it was Kos who needed to find someway to stop it, change the tempo of the fight, and get his own offense started.
Damien
Roar Guru
So true. The Last Emperor/ Darth Fedor...You will be missed !!
Damien
Roar Guru
The Franklin argument is sort a coin toss for me. You're probably right about Nate post Silva. I liked him before the Silva fight. During that Pancrase time, When I first started following the UFC I was a huge Franklin fan. Still am. Franklin I felt helped the UFC in the early days with his image (mutual benefits) and maybe thats why I see him alittle differently.I think he's from a different era and can't really cope with the new top guys. He won't be going anywhere I'm sure. He plays an important part in the big picture for the UFC. Good point bout Belfort. At the Silva v Franklin time he was alittle lost, but I was sort of meaning now. I think he still can compete with the top fighters at 185. I don't think that Fitch and Shields are push overs at all. They just have a suffocating style which personally I'm not a fan of. It suits their talents well and works for them but as a fan I'd rather watch someone like Lytle. Nothing personal against those guys, just a personal preference. The highlight reel comment was meant to mean 'unbelievable things I haven't seen done by any one else' which plays an important part in my GOAT 'scoring'. Good point about the Silva's triangle on Sonnen. It shouldn't have come as a suprise (not too sound like a black belt or anything) given the way Sonnen set himself up for it but I think the amazement was more in the context of the fight than the actual sub. Maia's triangle on Sonnen was probably the best IMO. He actually tapped Sonnen with a brilliant strategy rather than Silva who tapped him becasue Sonnen made a mistake. The Penn and Hughes argument is a valid one which I'll probably need another post about. Just on another note : Don;t you think that a Diaz v GSP would have been alot better than Condit ? Personally I can't stand Diaz but he does bring it to the cage. The GSP v Condit fight's going to be a 'fight to not lose' rather than a full on barn burner IMO. I hope I'm proved wrong.
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
Fedor is in the Top 5 for me because of his dominance in Pride when it was clearly the best HW division in the sport, but as has been said, those losses to Werdum, Silva, and Henderson have dropped him down a notch or two from his previous perch. Additionally, his fall is not really all that different from that of other former greats like Couture or Liddell, both of whom struggled in the twilight of their careers. Things catch up with you eventually, and no matter how great you once were, the time comes when there is someone better out there... or several someones.
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
I think that was longer than my actual column, so kudos for taking the time to deliver such an all-encompassing comment. Since you took the time to put your thoughts into print, I will take the time to respond to the things you've put forth: - Yes, I got the short end of the straw. Sam suggested we do something like this, then handed me the "argue against it" side of the deal. He's crafty that way. I would have done the same to him if given the opportunity, and will remember that for later. - Of course no one outside of the UFC could have beaten those four; the UFC is where the vast majority of the elite talent in the sport rests, so that is kind of a no-brainer assessment to me. - I would argue that Franklin was more "right up there" than Nate or Belfort during his two fights with Anderson. He was, after all, the champion in the first fight, and had beaten Jason MacDonald and Okami heading into the second fight. Personally, I think Nate Marquardt gets more credit and recognition than he deserves - his best career UFC win is either Demian Maia or Martin Kampmann, and they both came post-Silva. - Belfort got his shot after beating Franklin, whose standing you questioned. Prior to that he'd beaten Matt Lindland and Terry Martin, a pair of over the hill veterans trading on their names in Affliction. - Just because Fitch and Shields don't have the same kind of striking as Alves doesn't make them any less dangerous as opponents. If they were such push-overs and the path to beating them is so easy, how come more people hadn't done it, especially leading into their bouts with GSP? I don't think the divisions cancel out at all, especially when you go back to GSP fighting guys like Penn and Hughes prior to his championship run, not to mention underrated competition like a pre-anxiety issues Karo Parisyan, Jay Hieron, Mayhem, Frank Trigg etc. - I don't think highlight reels have anything to do with the "GOAT" discussion, just as I think wins and losses get overrated in the debate as well. People deem Muhammad Ali the "GOAT" from a boxing stand (rightfully so), but Ali had numerous losses and wasn't always putting up highlight reel fights. - People make so much of the "he pulled that sub out of nowhere!" but if you listen back to the fight, Rogan was warning about it, and anyone who knows (1) a thing or two about jiu-jitsu and (2) Sonnen's allergy to submissions saw it coming. It was beautifully setup and impressive nonetheless, but I think it gets over-sold in hindsight. - I think Anderson is neck-and-neck with GSP in the GOAT race, and can just as easily make a case for Silva as I can against him. My assignment was to present the cons, and while I hoped more people would see the validity in some of the points I've made, I fully understand the unbridled support Silva gets in this race. Thanks for the comment.
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
I completely agree with you on Jones not yet being at Silva's level of greatness, but think dismissing GSP simply based on the Matt Serra loss is short-sighted. This sport is predicated on the notion that everyone loses at some point, and while Silva hasn't lost in the UFC, he lost to journeyman like Daijue Takase and Ryo Chonan before coming into the organization. If we're throwing out "but he lost to..." lines, those are only slightly better than losing to Serra, and GSP only lost once to a "really? he lost to that guy?" opponent. How fighters win fights doesn't factor into this conversation for me - it's not a stylistic competition where guys are awarded bonus points for finishes and being exciting. A win is a win is a win, period. Anderson certainly has an edge by moving up to earn a pair of wins at LHW, but that, as I said in the piece, is indicative of the lack of competition he's had at MW at times, which, to me, nullifies the bonus points from moving up.
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
I don't understand how you can say, "we may never know Silva's true potential as a fighter." 14-0 in the UFC with a 5+ year reign atop the middleweight division has shown us his true potential. He clowns very, very good fighters and makes them look like amateurs. He is one of the greatest fighters in the history of the sport, without question.
E. Spencer Kyte
Roar Guru
Thanks Sam - you handed me a tough task both with the "con" side of this argument and following your knockout Part One. I agree with you that Jones will enter this argument shortly if he continues the way he has throughout his career. I would also like to see him and Silva square off, but I'm not sure it will happen. Feels like too much of a risky situation from the UFC perspective with Jones: not a good look if your light heavyweight champ and company poster boy gets beat by an aging middleweight on his way out of the game. It's be a huge fight in terms of PPV and anticipation, but Silva has bristled at the idea in the past. We'll have to see what happens.