Why aren't they calling for Hird's head?

On current evidence the blues are well in front of the bombers in their race for the top 4.

North will start favourites against Freo and should win to keep Carlton's hopes alive. However Freo are playing for a finals spot and may find a little extra to grind out a win. Credit to McLean for playing some good footy after copping a horrendous amount of abuse from Carlton supporters over the past 3 years. I suppose $400k p.a. for 2 and ½ years in the VFL has helped him cope. He'll be on the receiving end again when his form declines. Time will tell if Carlton or Essendon have what it takes to make the top 4 over the next couple of years.

Andrew A - North beat Collingwood fairly easy so they will be hot favourites against freo. And again for a club on the improve who has improved this year for them? Where is the new talent they discovered? And "McLean has played a few good games to get another contract." talk about the understatement of the year, he is averaging almost 25 touches a game over 5 tackles and has 7 goals from 14 matches. On Saturday he had 27 touches and kicked 3 goals.

Obviously Carlton smashed Essendon in every department to keep their fickle, bandwagon supporters happy for this week. It will count for nothing unless North beat Freo this weekend. Ratten will probably remain as coach and McLean has played a few good games to get another contract. The amount of abuse those two have received from Carlton supporters has been staggering. Essendon showed plenty in the first half of the year to indicate that they're a club on the improve. We'll see over the next couple of years which club takes the next step into the top 4 and becomes a serious challenger. It will only be a matter of time before rabid Carlton supporters call for Ratten's head again, should he survive beyond this year.

I know it is bad form to say I told you so but I did. Andrew A - Want to stack up Carltons key position players against the bombers this week? How did Hurley, Ryder, Hooker et el go on the weekend?

I don't see them winning any to be honest, Collingwood is a loss so they need to beat Carlton & Richmond, unilkely.

Who has beaten him? He has been absolutely terrific, much better than you give him credit for and he is only 22. Yes Waite has injury issues but look at the bombers key forwards, Hurley has a history of hamstring issues, Gumbleton has been a disaster. The blues aren't seriously in the market for Cloke, his price tag is too big and they are confident in the key position players they are developing. They only need 2 of Casboult, Waite, Mitchell and Hampson to stand up next year. And if Laidler McInnes, Jamison & Watson can hold down the key defensive spots Henderson could even go forward again. This conversation started by you saying the bombers were better placed to go forward but I still haven't been told who the bombers have uncovered this year.

Re : Essendons run home. If they win two of them, they might hang on to 8th spot. However, they shouldn't be relying on Richmond to 'do the right thing by them' by any stretch. All three games will be mini finals.

Henderson hasn't beaten every opponent since he's played in defence the past couple of years. No way known is that true. He's an honest trier down back after failing dismally up forward. The new coach will sort out who has a future at the club. Perhaps Casboult may become a good player. Good luck to him. Waite's a terrific player but can't be relied upon to fill a key position with his history of injuries. He would be just about finished. Carlton are in the market for Cloke. He might even get one of those ambassador jobs at Visy.

I think you should get you memory tested their Andrew, Cloke took 5 marks and kicked 1 against Henderson this year, Henderson took 7 grabs, I would be happy for those stats if I was Henderson. He didn't play in the second game against the Pies nor the Hawthorn game (where our backline was very inexperienced) Against the Kanga's Petrie had 4 goals before 1/4 time while Henderson was clunking marks down the other end and Henderson restricted him to 3 more in a half in his only game since round 12. He also managed 8 marks of his own. And you dismiss unproven youngsters but everyone was an unproven youngster at some stage, Casboult has shown he can play at AFL level with 9 shots on goal in the last 2 weeks (unfortunately just 3 goals) and Mitchell has big wraps. With those 2 and Waite and Walker up forward there is some marking power. Defensively Jamison, Henderson, Watson, Laidler & McInnes provide good depth going into next year as tall defenders and McCarthy & Bootsma add a bit extra.

Point taken Macca. And I agree with you that Carlton will benefit considerably from this season's injury misfortunes by being forced to play some good young blokes that would otherwise not have played and gained experience. This will pay them back next season with some good depth.

Time will tell as to how good Carlton's newcomers perform in coming years. Henderson has been beaten many times in defence. I'm sure Petrie only recently outmarked Henderson and others when he destroyed Carlton in three quarters. I can remember Cloke consistently outmarking Henderson. Didn't Hawthorn's key forwards have a field day too? As it stands now, Carlton's key position prospects look ordinary with unproven youngsters and injury prone senior players. Carlton's new coach will make some changes next year to develop the list better.

Tim Watson was sacked by St Kilda, not the bombers.

My point was, that Favorite son or not they still sack them as coaches. And Hird could face the same tragedy down the line. They did it to Jezza and did it to Watson. Clubs will do it to anyone that doesn't perform. It's a business that isn't spared by sentiment.

Geez Andrew nearing 30? Better dump them straight away. The Bombers have Fletcher, Lovett Murray & Hille all over 30, Davey & Winderlich will be 29 next year, Watson 28 before next season starts and Stanton 27 next May. The blues have Scotland over 30, Waite 30 at the start of next year and Judd & Carrazzo 30 at the end of next year with Simpson 29 next year and Mclean, Walker, Jamison, Armfield & Betts 27. When you consider Casboult, Bell, McInnes & Watson have all come into the side this year and shown they can play at AFL level plus Bootsma, Dale & O'keefe getting some exposure I think the blues age profile stacks up pretty well. And I have asked this before but who have the Bombers discovered this year? Where is their next generation? On the player you mentioned, Henderson has not been beaten since going to defence and will develop into a great CHB, Jamison has looked unfit this year (although his last couple of games were a lot better) but that happens when you miss most of the pre-season, Kreuzer, Hampson and Warnock are all very young in ruck terms (how long has it taken Bellchambers to emerge?) and will develop however with the emergence of Casboult I think there is one too many. Mitchell and Casboult are the blues plan, 2 key forwards that can take contested grabs and provide a target, unfortunately Mitchell has missed the majority of the last 2 years with injury and Casboult missed the first half of this year. Those 2 are the reason the blues aren't going to bother with Cloke (see teh reports yesterday "speed is king"). Also the reason the Bombers have slightly more developed key position players is they started in 2005 in a better psositon, the blues had pretty much no talent after being locked out of 2 drafts, the Bombers already had Watson and Stanton on their list and could then get Ryder, Gumbleton and Hurley when the blues were getting Murphy, Gibbs and Yarran.

Hird and Thompson are into their 2nd year of developing the Essendon side to play a contested brand of football, based on Thompson's experience in developing the Geelong side over many years. The players are getting physically bigger and the next couple of years will tell if Thompson's methods prove to be successful again. The Bombers went backwards under Knights but are back on track under Hird and Thompson. Sanderson is employing similar methods at Adelaide who are in the top 4, partly due to a very favourable draw. Carlton don't seem to have a plan under Ratten. Carlton rely on the same few players to lift the rest of the team. As far as Carlton's imaginary premiership window, I doubt they will come close to a flag anytime soon. 3 of Carlton's best 4 midfielders are nearing 30, i.e. Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson. Carlton's key position stocks look very thin. Jamison has only missed 2 games this year but never seems to be fully fit. Waite is just about finished - a talented player who's nearing 30 and injury prone. Henderson is an average player who had to be shifted to defence after failing as a forward. Casboult has shown a bit of promise in his first few games and will probably be elevated to the senior list next year and Mitchell is an unknown quantity at senior level. Hampson is an ordinary ruckman and an ordinary forward. Kruezer is ok sometimes in the ruck and average up forward. Warnock hasn't shown a great deal and can't get a game. Essendon have some quality young key position players with the likes of Hurley, Ryder, Pears, Crameri, Hooker. They've got a quality ruckman in Bellchambers and also Hille who is nearing the end of his career. The Bombers can build a very successful side around their quality big men. Carlton don't come close to that. It explains why they're in the market for Cloke to fill the massive void.

And Andrew how is that plan working out, given the players they have picked up from high draft picks in the last 5 years and the position they started from back in 2007 why are they still "rebuilding" while the blues are expected to have entered their "premiership window" already?

Carlton are a club that makes excuses for underperforming. The excuses include: - injuries - can't play Etihad - umpiring - short turnaround between games - Ratten - smurf away strip - McLean Essendon appear to have a plan to build a successful team and I think they will taste success before Carlton

Matt F - I didn't say where they were picked reflect the player, you did by denying they were similar draft picks. I pointed out that the bombers bottomed out around the same time as the blues, have had some quality draft picks over the same time and the bombers started from a better position so the argument that Essendon are rebuilding while the blues list is mature is a furphy. And I have said right from the start of the season the blues depth isn't as good as the likes of Colingwood because they are in different phases. The list Ratten inherited in 2007 was terrible, how many players from pre 2007 are playing regular senior footy now? This year they have developed that depth with the likes of McInnes, Casboult Bell Watson and Bootsma. You also have to acknowledge that they have had injuries to their depth players as well, Davies, White, Casboult and Mitchell have all missed over half the year. Plus I never said covering injuries was a stretch, I said your arguement that Essendon are finishing closer to their expected position automatically means they covered their injuries better is a stretch, it is much more complicated than that. And no I am not saying Carlton were always an 8-12 side this year but once they lost 1/2 their best side to injury, including almost all their key forwards and not being able to field Murphy Carrazzo Judd and simpson in the same side since round 3 they were going to struggle. Use google to find the articles, their were quite a few tipping the blues to finish 9th, more had them just making the 8 but even now the blues are still likely to make the finals if the win this week and who knows from there.

Jack - The Eagles do have one advantage over the Blues home games in Perth, it makes a big difference in the games like Friday night and against the blues themselves. Also injuries are catching up with the Eagles now. And plus it isn't just the number of injuries but who they have been, the blues went into the season a little light in the key forward dept and proceeded to lose all their key forwards for extended periods at the same time, Collingwood lost a lost of Key defenders but had good depth in that area to begin with, had they lost Cloke and/or Dawes the results might have been different. Similarly with the Eagles, they have an abundance of marking power in the forward line so the loss of Kennedy, Le Cras and Nicoski isn't felt as much.