Matai suspension leaves Toovey perplexed

I don't recall saying Manly are over the cap.

Just to further get things into perspective QGIRL and Oikee. and to show sometimes teams go through periods of opulence and then dearth I randomly looked back at Brisbane during their glory days....makes Manly look like paupers Try 1999 and all these players are internationals Lockyer. Had been there 4 years and would complete 16 years at the Bronks Renouf: Had been there 11 years. Retired that year Hancock: Had been there 11 years. Would play on for another year Sailor: had been there 4 years and would go on for another 2 years Langer: had been there 11 years. Went to England next year Webcke: Had been there 4 years and would play a further 7 years Civoniceva: Had been there 1 year but would go on to play from the Broncs until 2007 and return in 2012 Tallos: Had been there 2 year and went on to play a further 5 years Thorne: Had been there 5 years and played a further year and would later return Kevin Walters: Had been there 9 years and would play another year All of those players played for the Broncos for at least 6 years and six of them in excess of 10 years. Should I go back at talk of Lewis, Kerrod Walters, Chris Johns, Miles etc etc all long term bronco players in the 90s. Brisbane is going through a lean trot at present but will, because of their access to juniors en masse, return to the glory days and then they will have these long term internationals that people will grumble about because of the salary cap. Brisbane had a set of players over a longer term than Manly that kept them near the top for a longer period. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...or fibs.

QGIRL. I am not suggesting that you dont know a lot about League. But you utilise information to suit your particular bias. Manly, despite its success in recent years has not been the biggest contributor to the rep teams and certainly this year exemplifies that. Its easy to manipulate information when full disclosure is not apparent. I had for example a Canterbury supporter claiming Manly had so many top line players and other teams didnt. Yet though acknowledging that Manly has developed the talent and produced 8 of their 10 internationals (though some havent played internationals for years such as Kite, Matai, Brett Stewart, David Williams and Lyon has retired from rep football) it should be noted only Glen Stewart and Watmough have been consistent test players of late and then not first picked like Lockyer, Slater, Gallen, Smith, Thurston etc. In fact Canterbury have 9 internationals and four others who have represented and then there are the next generation who will be internationals such as Barba, Kasiano, Reynolds as well as getting Tony Williams. I hear none of this rot being said against Canterbury who have been just as successful as Manly in recent decades. No questions asked about their salary cap. What of Parramatta and the exorbitant monies being splashed out for players at the moment , including tying up most of their Toyota Cup side. What about Souths and their near superstar side. And of course I could very well go back to the Brisbane side of yesteryear and the team of super stars they had for years and years, and not to mention Melbourne. Come on how about dispensing with those myopic glasses and see things for what they are. I'm not disputing Manly has a fine team. But look at how they manage it. They build up a succession of central players, I guess like most teams, but they remain very loyal to those who stick it out because they also help set them up in clubs overseas at the end of their careers rather than just drop them. Manly has a huge number of ex players playing in England and France who were the previous generations of players. Players know Manly will take care of their interests when they leave if they stick around. You claim to wonder how they afford the team they have with players who have stayed a long while. Kite is probably England bound, King has probably a year maybe two left, Galavao is near the end, as is Rose. Suddenly the players Oikee is talking about are gone and a new set of junior trained players replace them. Foran, Cherry-Evans, Whare, Taufua, Buhrer, Mauro, Oldfield, Harrison, Lussick all playing first grade were unknown kids 2 years ago (well over half the Manly team), just as Ballin, David Williams were before them and the Stewart Brothers, King, Matai, Watmough before them. That's how Manly do it. While some teams like Souths have bought half their team as established first graders, Manly with less money has been developing kids over the past decade to form a strong unit. They lose a lot of them to other clubs as they come through but they get some back. Two youngsters you'll hear about in the next group are Gutherson, and Trbjevic (Manly juniors) who are in the next lot destined for first grade some time next year and possibly the next stars at Manly. Manly can afford to keep some of them because they will pay reasonably big, but not outlandish money to those who prove themselves while their young players are still on lower wages waiting their turn. Manly doesnt throw a fortune at an Ingliss, Thurston, Sandow, Hopoate, Lewis etc. So there are few players making far more than others in the squad. Now I know all teams to a degree follow this process. Its just that Manly does it far better than most...Canterbury and Melbourne are probably the only other clubs that do it as effectively. Manly has a good mixture of talented players but only Lyon would be called a super star at this stage and he is near the end of his career. They effectively mix good experienced players with talented juniors and having played and trained together even through juniors, they are a very tight group. Add to that a very effective development process and you have the reason for success without big financial outlays, that they cant afford anyway. Ps Toovey was a very different player to Andrew Johns. Johns was very talented and was an excellent distributor, which Toovey was not. But pound for pound many experts have already said Toovey was at the very top of toughness and strength, which Johns wasnt. Different style of player, different role and for Manly he was one of our all time best whether you think so or not. He didnt have to be a distributor because he had a master in Cliff Lyons outside him, probably the best distributor I've ever seen (he created Menzies). But Cliff had the misfortune and therefore bad press of being around at the same time as one of your greats, who I consider the best player I have seen in 50 years of watching the game, that being Wally Lewis. But as a distributor, setting up the play, Lyons was streets ahead of all of them.

QGIRL. I am not suggesting that you dont know a lot about League. But you utilise information to suit your particular bias. Manly, despite its success in recent years has not been the biggest contributor to the rep teams and certainly this year exemplifies that. Its easy to manipulate information when full disclosure is not apparent. I had for example a Canterbury supporter claiming Manly had so many top line players and other teams didnt. Yet though acknowledging that Manly has developed the talent and produced 8 of their 10 internationals (though some havent played internationals for years such as Kite, Matai, Brett Stewart, David Williams and Lyon has retired from rep football) it should be noted only Glen Stewart and Watmough have been consistent test players of late and then not first picked like Lockyer, Slater, Gallen, Smith, Thurston etc. In fact Canterbury have 9 internationals and four others who have represented and then there are the next generation who will be internationals such as Barba, Kasiano, Reynolds as well as getting Tony Williams. I hear none of this rot being said against Canterbury who have been just as successful as Manly in recent decades. No questions asked about their salary cap. What of Parramatta and the exorbitant monies being splashed out for players at the moment , including tying up most of their Toyota Cup side. What about Souths and their near superstar side. And of course I could very well go back to the Brisbane side of yesteryear and the team of super stars they had for years and years, and not to mention Melbourne. Come on how about dispensing with those myopic glasses and see things for what they are. I'm not disputing Manly has a fine team. But look at how they manage it. They build up a succession of central players, I guess like most teams, but they remain very loyal to those who stick it out because they also help set them up in clubs overseas at the end of their careers rather than just drop them. Manly has a huge number of ex players playing in England and France who were the previous generations of players. Players know Manly will take care of their interests when they leave if they stick around. You claim to wonder how they afford the team they have with players who have stayed a long while. Kite is probably England bound, King has probably a year maybe two left, Galavao is near the end, as is Rose. Suddenly the players Oikee is talking about are gone and a new set of junior trained players replace them. Foran, Cherry-Evans, Whare, Taufua, Buhrer, Mauro, Oldfield, Harrison, Lussick all playing first grade were unknown kids 2 years ago (well over half the Manly team), just as Ballin, David Williams were before them and the Stewart Brothers, King, Matai, Watmough before them. That's how Manly do it. While some teams like Souths have bought half their team as established first graders, Manly with less money has been developing kids over the past decade to form a strong unit. They lose a lot of them to other clubs as they come through but they get some back. Two youngsters you'll hear about in the next group are Gutherson, and Trbjevic (Manly juniors) who are in the next lot destined for first grade some time next year and possibly the next stars at Manly. Manly can afford to keep some of them because they will pay reasonably big, but not outlandish money to those who prove themselves while their young players are still on lower wages waiting their turn. Manly doesnt throw a fortune at an Ingliss, Thurston, Sandow, Hopoate, Lewis etc. So there are few players making far more than others in the squad. Now I know all teams to a degree follow this process. Its just that Manly does it far better than most...Canterbury and Melbourne are probably the only other clubs that do it as effectively. Manly has a good mixture of talented players but only Lyon would be called a super star at this stage and he is near the end of his career. They effectively mix good experienced players with talented juniors and having played and trained together even through juniors, they are a very tight group. Add to that a very effective development process and you have the reason for success without big financial outlays, that they cant afford anyway. Ps Toovey was a very different player to Andrew Johns. Johns was very talented and was an excellent distributor, which Toovey was not. But pound for pound many experts have already said Toovey was at the very top of toughness and strength, which Johns wasnt. Different style of player, different role and for Manly he was one of our all time best whether you think so or not. He didnt have to be a distributor because he had a master in Cliff Lyons outside him, probably the best distributor I've ever seen (he created Menzies). But Cliff had the misfortune and therefore bad press of being around at the same time as one of your greats, who I consider the best player I have seen in 50 years of watching the game, that being Wally Lewis. But as a distributor, setting up the play, Lyons was streets ahead of all of them.

Bearfax, it doesn't matter if these guys were only juniors 7 years ago. The point is they're now superstars and they're playing for the same club. The only other club that has been able to keep that many superstars together over the last few years was the Storm, and we all know how they went about doing it! Noel 'Crusher' Cleal is a good scout. Manly's rise began not long after he started identifying talent for them. He picks good juniors because he has a good eye. But how do you explain Manly's ability to get so many of those players to resign after they've become representative players? There has to be something going on at Manly that keeps the stars at the club. Maybe it's a really close-knit group. Maybe it's the lifestyle. But I think there has to be some money involved. Players don't usually stay out of loyalty when they can earn far more at another club.

"Toovey made his debut in 1988 and made an immediate impression in the Rugby League world by being the primary cause of the Great Britain side’s loss in their first game to Manly by 30-0. He played in 3 grand finals with Manly, 1995, 1996 and 1997. He captained Manly to a grand final victory in 1996 and with a broken eye socket won the Clive Churchill Award. Played numerous SOO and test matches. OMG he even captained Australia on one occasion, (what a loser)" You think I"m not aware that Toovey was playing before 1998? Give me some credit! The first time I saw him was when I started watching football in 1993. He wasn't a standout for them back then. Manly had a pretty good team in the early and mid 90s. They poached a lot of good players from Souths and were favoured by the NSWRL/ARL. It helps when you're playing with a team full of superstars bought from rival clubs! I remember seeing NSW, with Toovey at halfback, get thrashed by a bunch of no name kids in game 3 of 1995. Canterbury weren't too bothered by him when they met in the GF that year. Manly struggled when Toovey was pretty much the biggest name in their squad. He didn't lead them around like Johns did at the Knights, Lockyer at the Broncos, Inglis at Souths, Cronk/Slater/Smith at Storm, Thurston/Bowen at the Cowboys. He was a good player, but never a great. I never said he was a loser. That was you putting words in my mouth. But he did play with some loser Manly/Northern Eagles teams in the late 90s and 00s.

See there you go again oh Oikee of the forked tongue, misrepresenting the facts to detract interest in your team that so dominated the player market in the past. To go through your list of players and present the REAL facts, here they are Lyon: Joined Manly in 2007. That's about 6 years ago. Yes he had played for Parramatta but was in England for three years before he joined Manly Matai: I acknowledge he was 7 years ago in 2005. But he arrived at Manly as a junior. Had never played first grade and started in Manly's lower grades. David Williams: Joined Manly in 2008, that's 5 years ago. Though a Parramatta junior had never played first grade before coming to Manly Foran: Joined Manly in 2009, that 4 years ago. Came through Manly's junior comps before first grade and has never played first grade with any other club. Cherry-Evans: Joined Manly in 2008. That's five years ago. Again came through Manly's junior comps and had never played first grade for any other club Kite: Joined Manly in 2005, thats 8 years ago. Previously played for St George first grade ( a Canberra junior) King; Joined Manly 2003. That's 10 years ago. Is a Manly junior. Has never played for another club. Watmough: Joined Manly 2003. That's 10 years ago. Manly junior. Has never played for another club Brett Stewart: Joined Manly in 2003. That's 10 years ago. Joined Manly as a junior and played initially junior comp. Has never played for another first grade side Glenn Stewart. Joined Manly in 2003 as a package deal because Brett wouldn't join unless his brother was with him. Was an afterthought and never expected to get into first grade. Has never played for another first grade side. Now Oikee you started off saying most of Manly's premiership side had been with them for 7 years. I count 6. Including Rose that makes 7 out of Manly's 26 graded players. But only Kite and Lyon had ever played first grade before joining Manly. All of the rest were juniors (albeit many from other locations) who joined the Manly junior comps. None of the rest had played first grade, none of those players therefore had played SOOs or tests before joining Manly. In the meantime Manly has lost to elsewhere a huge number of players. Check out the Catalan team in English Super league. there's about 5-6 ex Manly players. Canterbury already has a couple of players they wanted to hold as has Sydney City and Parramatta. And many of those players Manly wanted to keep but couldnt afford to keep them. You see Oikee, because of the unfair break up of junior resources in this comp, some teams have to supplement their junior talent by checking out other players which clubs arent willing to keep. Manly has an excellent training method for those players, Like Melbourne, where they develop unknown kids, some of whom are considered not sufficiently talented, such as Glenn Stewart, and through careful training develop them into champion players. Manly hasnt bought a champion player since Lyon in 2007, six years ago. The players they have were developped at Manly for first grade and because they cant afford the elite players anymore that is what they continue to do. That's why Canterbury not only stole Hasler and Cleal, but they also stole half the training support group, who have made these young kids such champion players. Its also why players seek to stay. No BS. Cherry Evans, Ballin, Matai and Foran were offered much more to go elsewhere. Hopoate was offered almost twice what Manly could offer. Other teams like your Brisbane and Parramatta have a glut of juniors to choose from, way beyond what Manly has. Why then is Manly so successful with much less. Not money lad. A very effective junior training program. That's why the few good local juniors Manly has are being pillaged by other clubs. they know they have the Manly training discipline in them...and that is far more than just Hasler...he inherited it as has Toovey. Now you can dispute this Oikee, but I suggest you go and have a talk with a couple of first graders first and find out for yourself.

Spot on.. Its the team of stars he inhereted playing well not his coaching doing the trick. His club and media manager should be telling him to zip it but with all the infighting there they have forgotten about the clown questioning all and sundry.. Matai should be lucky it was a week, not for dopes like Toovey to come out and say he is perplexed with the judiciary.. Theyve actually looked after hisclub on this one.

Jamie Lyon, ex international Origin player, and Captain. Matai, international Kiwi Wolfman, Origin International Forun Kiwi halve international Cherry Evans played for Kangaroos last year, international Kite ex origin King ex origin, Watmough Origin international Glen Stewart Origin International, Willimas Origin International Ballin Origin Brett Stewart Origin Inernational. Big deal, you let some fringe players go, you have had these other senior group together for 6-7 years now. Brisbane lost Teo and Bearle from a depleted grouip who we also lost Lockyer and Petro now. My god, your shame shows no boundaries. Even blind freddie can see that Brisbane has fed the comp, while Manly has done nothing but throw away the fringe players or had to lose Hoppa (another Origin player) go because he went on mission. Your without shame, and again i have shown you nearly 1 to 13 superstars Manly have keep and let reitied or weak fringe players go but keep the core group, all internationals and origin players. Bearfax, everyone can see this, its black and white, you cant deny this, and i have the report from the Rugby League Weekly is you want to see that as well. Manly are and have always cheated the cap. Its not a secret mate, we are not blind. Even Shubert had to complain this time, your over 1 million over the cap already. The old cap, 4.3 million, your working on a 5.5 million cap, and your 400 thousand over once you sign up Brett Stewart to his 2.6 million dollar penthouse deal.

Further to the signing of the same team for the last 7 years. Only Brett and Glenn Stewart, Watmough, Kite, King and Rose (my apologies) were playing for Manly from their present first grade 7 years ago, and Kite and Rose had only joined that year. That's six of their 17 playing group and others who have played first grade this year. Jamie Lyon joined in 2007, Wolfman in 2008. Doesnt that make you feel embarrassed or something Oikee (not sure how Queenslanders feel about things really). You must learn to not fib. By the way outside of the Melbourne first grader who was there half a year and chucked out of Newcastle earlier this year, who has Manly bought for next year. Do you know Oikee. Can you guess hmmm. Answer. A bunch of kids with no first grade experience. Why. because Manly cant afford the big names like several of the richer clubs seem to be able to buy at the drop of a hat. Yep, you can see how Manly are exceeding the cap...obvious. Sorry Oikee. Own goal to you.

Ah that's the ticket Oikee. Been hanging out for your response. Always enjoy fishing. Your right. they haven't signed Kite yet and seems likely he is going to England. Gallavao is probably also being let go, along with one or two others. That means....now wait for it Oikee and QGIRL, that Manly has had to let go over the past year Hopoate (and his younger outstanding brother Jamil) to Parramatta along with Lussick and his brother and Harrison to Parramatta. Then there's Oldfield to Sydney City, Whare to Penrith and Tony Williams to Canterbury. Add to that probably they will lose their outsnading your talent Drinkwater to St George. That's around thirteen players my friends (an entire football team) they have had to let go because of salary cap restrictions and quite frankly lack of money. At least seven of those players have been regular first graders and four of their best juniors in an already struggling junior group. Now lets hear about Brisbane or Canterbury over the past year and who they've lost...fewer players I would suggest and those they didnt want. Yes buying a property on the Many Warringah peninsula is expensive. Living in Sydney generally is expensive. Means the value of your dollar is worth less in Sydney...than say brisbane where you can get a top location for much less and your overall living costs generally are much less. Means that $100,000 in Sydney gets you much less than the same in Brisbane...another example of the bias against Sydney clubs, especially those in the wealthier areas. And Oikee. tsk Tsk Tsk. Aagain you are maintaining that they are signing the same premiership side for 7 years. You will find only about half of the side, as I demonstrated in another forum, were with Manly 7 years ago. Foran, Cherry-Evans, Tony Williams, Buhrer, Mauro, Whare, Oldfield, Gallvao' Taufua, Harrison, Rose were either playing elsewhere then or were kids playing park football. I think you'll find even Jamie Lyon was not with the club then or had only just joined. You must learn not to be cheeky and tell fibs Oikee. Bad for your reputation..

Ah that's the ticket Oikee. Been hanging out for your response. Always enjoy fishing. Your right. they haven't signed Kite yet and seems likely he is going to England. Gallavao is probably also being let go, along with one or two others. That means....now wait for it Oikee and QGIRL, that Manly has had to let go over the past year Hopoate (and his younger outstanding brother Jamil) to Parramatta along with Lussick and his brother and Harrison to Parramatta. Then there's Oldfield to Sydney City, Whare to Penrith and Tony Williams to Canterbury. Add to that probably they will lose their outsnading your talent Drinkwater to St George. That's around thirteen players my friends (an entire football team) they have had to let go because of salary cap restrictions and quite frankly lack of money. At least seven of those players have been regular first graders and four of their best juniors in an already struggling junior group. Now lets hear about Brisbane or Canterbury over the past year and who they've lost...fewer players I would suggest and those they didnt want. Yes buying a property on the Many Warringah peninsula is expensive. Living in Sydney generally is expensive. Means the value of your dollar is worth less in Sydney...than say brisbane where you can get a top location for much less and your overall living costs generally are much less. Means that $100,000 in Sydney gets you much less than the same in Brisbane...another example of the bias against Sydney clubs, especially those in the wealthier areas. And Oikee. tsk Tsk Tsk. Aagain you are maintaining that they are signing the same premiership side for 7 years. You will find only about half of the side, as I demonstrated in another forum, were with Manly 7 years ago. Foran, Cherry-Evans, Tony Williams, Buhrer, Mauro, Whare, Oldfield, Gallvao' Taufua, Harrison, Rose were either playing elsewhere then or were kids playing park football. I think you'll find even Jamie Lyon was not with the club then or had only just joined. You must learn not to be cheeky and tell fibs Oikee. Bad for your reputation..

Not sure when i became Robbo, but still, i posted above so your comment is probably spot on, i gave you some ammo. :) Toovey is a angry ant, not a coach. Cant wait to see his head pop after he gets belted by real coaches for 3 years, or however long Manly keep the water boy on the payroll.

No, i have to agree with QGIRL for once, and as for Manly being poor, that makes sense. When your paying above the cap and for players to live in penthouses for 2 thousand a week at Bondi, it makes it hard for your club to make money. Just today i was reading the rugby league week, Manly this time have been caught blind by Shubert for trying to register Brett Stewart, they are hundreds of thousands over the cap? probably the next cap at that, the 5.5 million cap. This is the same club who had to let Hoppa go on walkabout because they would have had their premiership stipped like the storm. And this told everyone they were just going to keep resinging the same premiership team the y have had now for 7 years, while every other club has nearly gone through complete rosters. Come-on, the game is up Manly, its in black and white now. They haven't signed fringe players, they have not resigned Kite, they had to offload Williams and Lussick, and they still are over the cap while their players all live on the waterfront in 2 thousand a week apartments. Go figure, poor Manly.

Tsk tsk tsk. You didnt research did you. What would your teachers say about sitting for a test without studying your material. Shame on you QGIRL Toovey made his debut in 1988 and made an immediate impression in the Rugby League world by being the primary cause of the Great Britain side's loss in their first game to Manly by 30-0. He played in 3 grand finals with Manly, 1995, 1996 and 1997. He captained Manly to a grand final victory in 1996 and with a broken eye socket won the Clive Churchill Award. Played numerous SOO and test matches. OMG he even captained Australia on one occasion, (what a loser) Yes his team was not so successful in later years as the Northern Eagles and later Manly again. But that was because the Super League debacle had seriously impoverished the Manly club and almost sent it to the wall, unlike SuperLeague sides, such as Brisbane/Canterbury/Melbourne/Penrith/Cronulla/Canberra that were constantly infused with cash to keep them successful.. During that period they could barely afford to keep a decent team on the field until recent years and they continue to be one of the financially poorer sides. Which explains why they were never nabbed for salary breaches, unlike many successful clubs we can think of hmmmm, during the late 90s early to mid 2000s because, like a failing Cronulla more recently before their recent windfall, they could barely raise enough cash to reach the salary cap. You'll of course pooh pooh that but those closer to the club know that Manly on several occasions almost closed their doors during that period and only just scraped through with a couple of new owners. But I'm sure like our previous prime minister John Howard, you will find some way of revising history to suit your view of the world wont you QGIRL.

Oh Oikee. Just when I was actually beginning to like you, you soiled the sand pit again. You've got to detach yourself from this Manly persecution condition.Paranoia about their ongoing successes is just not healthy old friend. Try calming yourself with some deep breathing exercises and concentrate instead on your favourite team's successes this year....oh dear that didn't help at all did it.

He played for Manly/Northern Eagles in the late 90s and 00s. Both teams were losers.

Yes. I can appreciate your position. Losers in battle always hate the successful general on the other side. Toovey was such a pain in the ass for opposition teams wasn't he. Yes QGIRL, I sympathise with you. Must be hard facing those memories.

Start fining thugs like Matai and when he see's the bank account getting hit it may wake him up. At the moment the only penalty is a stint on the sideline, with most players carrying some kind of injury it's generally a welcome break.

I always hated Toovey when he was a player. He always came across as a little dobber and whinger.