Depth critical for RWC 2015: Deans


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    Wallabies coach Robbie Deans is putting a brave face on a brutal 2015 Rugby World Cup draw which puts Australia in the pool of death with fellow heavyweights England and Wales.

    Only two can advance to the quarter-finals and – being the team to miss out from the cut-throat pool A, which also includes two qualifiers – is an unthinkable prospect for two-time World Cup winners Australia.

    Fresh from their stunning 38-21 defeat of the world champion All Blacks at the weekend, the young England team loom as a huge hurdle in three years time with their World Cup host home-ground advantage.

    And the Wallabies are keenly aware of how tough Six Nations champions Wales are these days, having snatched a lucky last-gasp 14-12 win on Saturday in the last of the two teams’ four close encounters in 2012.

    Deans admitted the draw finalised in London on Monday would be seen as the toughest in the competition.

    “When you look at the sides and you look at history, that’s an easy suggestion to make, but they’re all tough,” Deans said.

    “The fact of the matter is once you get into the tournament, there’s no such thing as an easy draw.”

    He said it was early days to be making judgments about teams’ World Cup chances.

    “We’ve seen in recent times Test match rugby is about in-the-now, it’s about on-the-day, and nothing that’s happened before has any relevance on what’s coming after, so we (have) just got to keep working our way through the program,” Deans said.

    Flanker David Pocock was also present for Monday’s draw in London and toed the same line, while admitting England’s Cup host status would give them an added edge.

    “As Robbie said, there’s going to be no easy games and, to win the tournament, you have to beat the best and deal with what you’re dealt,” said Pocock.

    However, the 23-year old added that England go into the tournament with an edge as host nation.

    England coach Stuart Lancaster called it “fate” that his side drew a pool with Australia and Wales.

    “It’s a pretty tough pool,” said Lancaster. “Wales, I’ve got a huge amount of respect for what they’ve done recently.

    “Australia have just beaten us and are an incredibly competitive nation. We’ll look forward to it in a few years’ time,” added Lancaster, bidding to follow Clive Woodward, the man behind England’s 2003 Webb Ellis Trophy triumph.

    Pool B brings together seeds South Africa, Samoa and Scotland.

    Top-ranked New Zealand headline Pool C along with Argentina and Tonga while, in Pool D, the top teams are France, Ireland and Italy.

    The quarter-final draw could put New Zealand up against France – who knocked them out in the last eight in 2007 and met them in the 2011 final – or Ireland.

    Meanwhile the winners of England, Australia or Wales will face the runners-up from Pool B who, on current form, are likely to be Samoa or Scotland.

    Whoever wins Pool A will avoid New Zealand until the final provided the All Blacks, as they’ve done at every previous World Cup, win their group.

    The Pool B winners will meet the runners-up from Pool A with the winners of Pool D, where France will be the favourites, facing the runners-up from Pool C, likely to be Argentina or Tonga.

    The 2015 World Cup in England, the eighth edition of the tournament, will run from September 18 to October 31, 2015, with the final at Twickenham.

    © AAP 2018

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    The Crowd Says (243)

    • December 5th 2012 @ 5:49am
      mania said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:49am | ! Report

      no sht sherlock

      • Roar Guru

        December 5th 2012 @ 9:57am
        Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:57am | ! Report

        What has Kurt Sherlock got to do with all this?

        • Roar Guru

          December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm
          jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm | ! Report

          I wonder if Robbie is going to start building and have the team learning lessons again.

          • Roar Guru

            December 5th 2012 @ 12:41pm
            Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:41pm | ! Report

            How to catch, draw then pass would be a good start.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 2:41pm
              Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:41pm | ! Report

              thats club and age group rugby stuff argyle

              • December 5th 2012 @ 2:43pm
                Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:43pm | ! Report

                s there a rugby train the trainers VET programme around????? Surely thats not the national coaches job

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 3:33pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:33pm | ! Report

                Exactly Ra – they need to learn that first!

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:03pm
                Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:03pm | ! Report

                Exactly see my points on kletsical’s third post about that.

            • December 6th 2012 @ 12:13am
              Bakkies said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:13am | ! Report

              Funny that people are advocating Burgess because he is ”test quality.” He struggles with catching, passing and drawing the pure basics.

              • Roar Guru

                December 6th 2012 @ 2:36am
                jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 2:36am | ! Report

                agree, I’d say Burgess’s passing was worse than Phipps – remember the pass over Giteau’s head and the deadball line?

              • December 6th 2012 @ 11:14am
                Bakkies said | December 6th 2012 @ 11:14am | ! Report

                Yes too well.

    • December 5th 2012 @ 6:05am
      Billy Bob said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:05am | ! Report

      I am not the first to say it but all World Cups are a knockout. And if you don’t win it you have been knocked out, sooner or later.
      Now that this draw has everyone’s attention, could we please now get some action on developing rugby in this country? Starting with the Tahs.
      Let the arguments begin.

    • December 5th 2012 @ 7:56am
      Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 7:56am | ! Report

      World Cups are about winning 7 games in a row. Deans has won 5 (his first 5 in charge) and then never passed 4 on the trot since then. And he wants the gig to 2015:
      Well blow that for a bunch of bananas, I’ll be dusting off my British passport and cheering for someone else if he does.

      • December 5th 2012 @ 8:03am
        mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:03am | ! Report


        i sir will be supporting my team and country.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 8:16am
          Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:16am | ! Report

          That’s because you’re not a well travelled citizen of the world who has two countries – you don’t have any choice.
          A team isn’t “mine” just because I live somewhere; they don’t get my loyalty by default, they have earn it.

          • December 5th 2012 @ 9:06am
            mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:06am | ! Report

            i’m a british passport holder fella and once lived in london for 10 years. i’ve also travelled across every continent except antarctica.

            i’m as much a citizen of the world as anyone but i’m also australian first and will remain so till the day i die which includes supporting the wallabies through thick and thin. England will always remain my second team.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 10:20am
              Rob said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:20am | ! Report

              Be sure to stop commenting on the roar when you leave.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 12:25pm
              Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:25pm | ! Report

              That’s because you obviously feel an special affinity for Australia and call it home. That’s nice for you. I don’t. Just because you can’t understand a different outlook doesn’t make me fickle.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm | ! Report

                i think turning your back on anything in times of need is fickle.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 2:07pm
                Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:07pm | ! Report

                So you’re beholden to anyone who claims to “need” you?
                Moreover the Wallabies and the ARU don’t need us, they don’t even want us, if they cared about the public they would listen to them about the direction of the national team and put money at grassroots level.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 2:25pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:25pm | ! Report

                if you cared about grass roots rugby you’d be out there coaching and encouraging people to take an interest in the sport, spending their money at the tills etc which flows down to grass roots, not spending your time belittling the wallabies and the ARU.

                if you cared about the game, not your immediate needs of entertainment as a means to boost your self esteem hinged on the results of a team that kick and run with a ball, you’d have a much more positive outlook on life and your expectations on the wallabies would be more realistic.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 2:58pm
                Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:58pm | ! Report

                is this a private conversation between two roaming gypsies????? Then private message each other eh.
                Red you are well known for your negative feedback. I thought it was because you are anti Deans, not necessarily anti Kiwi
                But now I realise that you’re anti everybody, so the impact of your great loss to theroar, will be welcomed by all with a can of VB
                Oh and tidy the couch will you, we don’t want any remindersthat you were here

              • December 5th 2012 @ 4:35pm
                Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 4:35pm | ! Report

                I was going to laugh at you calling me negative after reading your “contributions” to this story’s comments section … then I realised I should be more compassionate and pity you. I sense tears from the two of you – would you like tissues? How about a hug?

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:47pm
                bill said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:47pm | ! Report

                I will support the wallabies for the world cup….I thought that was a given for every Aussie (except red the negative kev)

      • December 5th 2012 @ 8:48am
        soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:48am | ! Report

        kev i reckon we could drop one and still win. there’s not too many teams outside the all blacks that have gone on decent winning trots. last wc only the all blacks won more than 4 in a row i think (i know they won but wales and france were in with a good shake at least)

        • December 5th 2012 @ 9:18am
          Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:18am | ! Report

          Not quite – in fact all the pool winners (NZ, Ireland, England & SA)won 4 in a row, but other than NZ no one won 5 (as the other 3 pool winners all lost their 1/4 finals).

          That is something of an anomaly in that 3 of the 4 semi-finalists had suffered a loss up to that point – if you look at previous WC’s:

          1987 – All 4 semi-finalists undefeated
          1991 – 3 out of 4 semi-finalists undefeated
          1995 – All 4 semi-finalists undefeated
          1999 – all 4 semi-finalists undefeated
          2003 – All 4 semi-finalist undefeated
          2007 – 2 out of 4 semi-finalists undefeated

          So, it’s only happened 6 times in RWC history and half of those were at one tournament. Most of the time the semi-finalists are on a 4-5 match winning streak.

          • December 5th 2012 @ 12:14pm
            soapit said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:14pm | ! Report

            so isnt that what i said, no one except nz won MORE than 4 in a row?

            i agree that its unusual compared to history but i also think there is some truth with what people are saying regarding the closing of the gap in the last few years (though i dont think it extends down more than about 3 ranking spots from any given team – anything else is a genuine upset associated with a uniquely great performance/luck/weather/uniquely poor performance etc)

            • December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm
              Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm | ! Report


              Quite right, you did write that.

          • Roar Rookie

            December 5th 2012 @ 11:39pm
            Neuen said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:39pm | ! Report

            And those 2 undefeated semi finalist met each other in a semi final while the two group losers met in the other

        • December 5th 2012 @ 9:23am
          Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:23am | ! Report

          Almost doesn’t really cut it – if Deans get 8 years and loses the 2015 RWC final his tenure is still a failure.
          Has an RWC winner ever lost an RWC match in the year they won? (I am not sure but I don’t think it has happened)

          • December 5th 2012 @ 9:46am
            mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:46am | ! Report

            Deans tenure has been a success and a failure. His win percentages against SA are the best of any wallaby coach and his win percentages over the collective european countries is above average. That is a statistical fact.

            But our win percentages against NZ are well below average which has been a monumental failure and brings his average win ratio down below par. (Most international coaches don’t have to play new zealand 3 or 4 times a year so the total win ratios are misleading). Plus Is the Head coach fully responsible? Well perhaps he is perhaps he isn’t. There are other factors to consider of course and I think you know that. But if we did start beating the new zealanders next year it would also not all be down to Deans’ coaching. super xv form etc must be a key indicator odf how to measure a wallaby coaches success.

            in saying all that red kev despite that i think deans has done as good a job as any realistic person would expect it is time for him to step aside and give the next guy a go. I’d be saying this whether we’d won a bledisloe this year or not.

            one thing i think we agree is that deans has had enough time at the helm and should step aside straight after the lions series win or lose!

            • December 5th 2012 @ 12:01pm
              kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:01pm | ! Report

              mark that is not the best point I’ve ever heard. The Lions are a combination of England, who just beat New Zealand by the second largest ever margin, Wales, who won the Six Nations beating England and the defeated RWC finalists France, Ireland, who are a strong team often beating Wales and England, and Scotland who while weaker always produce a handful of outstanding forwards.

              To defeat a union of all that talent would be an incredible achievement and the ide of firing the coach after that bizarre.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm
                Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm | ! Report

                Yet the lions have lost their last 3 series…

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm
                Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm | ! Report

                Yeah, but those sides have to come together and form new combinations while on tour. There’s a reason the Lions have lost the vast majority of their tours. Beating the Lions isn’t ‘incredible’ at all.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:37pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:37pm | ! Report

                did i say fire him? i said step aside. theres a difference!

                Rod Macqueen did it the last time when we beat the lions!

                thanks for the breakdown on which countries make up the british and irish lions. i didn’t know that i thought they came from mars.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:38pm
                kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:38pm | ! Report

                In fact they lost to outstanding sides if you think about it.

                The 2009 South African team was one year before the law interpretations outdated their 10 man rugby style, had just won the RWC.

                The 2005 New Zealand team was tremendous.

                The 2001 Australian team was excellent too.

                It’s a long way from easy.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 2:32pm
                Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:32pm | ! Report

                It’s not ‘easy’ but neither is it ‘incredible’.

          • December 5th 2012 @ 11:23pm
            Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:23pm | ! Report

            Dude youve got some weird ideas.

          • December 5th 2012 @ 11:42pm
            Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:42pm | ! Report

            Red I’ve been on about whinging Aussies for a while now in here, but now you’ve “come out”, hey whinging Poms always have the inside lane in that department – i hate it when I’ve gotta apologise to an Aussie – so i married one, now im really sorry…

      • December 5th 2012 @ 8:53pm
        Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:53pm | ! Report

        World cups are not about winning 7 in a row.
        France lost twice in their pool and made the final.
        Just say “Im not going to comment of this article seriously but I would like to reiterate my irational hate for Deans”
        Thats pretty much what you said anyway.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 10:24pm
          Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:24pm | ! Report

          Have France won a world cup? No. Winning the Rugby World Cup is about winning every match, that’s 7 in a row now.
          1987 RWC Champions = NZ, RWC match record 6-0
          1991 RWC Champions = Aus, RWC match record 6-0
          1995 RWC Champions = SA, RWC match record 6-0
          1999 RWC Champions = Aus, RWC match record 6-0
          2003 RWC Champions = Eng, RWC match record 7-0
          2003 RWC Champions = SA, RWC match record 7-0
          2011 RWC Champions = NZ, RWC match record 7-0

          • December 5th 2012 @ 11:02pm
            Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:02pm | ! Report

            Youre weird.
            The WC isnt about winnig 7 in a row. France could have lost 2 and won the WC. Wtf are you talking about? Youre going on and on about it but you are 100% wrong. You DONT have to win 7 in a row.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 11:13pm
              Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:13pm | ! Report

              I get it, you dont like Deans becuz Aust has the 2nd best win loss ratio in the top 10 for 2012.
              But dont try and pass off some BS about Aust not having won more than 5 in a row with Deans as some kind of factual evidence that they cant win a WC with him.
              Its rubbish, you know it but just wont let it go.

            • December 6th 2012 @ 5:42am
              Red Kev said | December 6th 2012 @ 5:42am | ! Report

              “could have” … DIDN’T
              FACT – every world cup champion WINS every match. Deans can’t coach his way out of a cereal box, let alone to a streak of more then 5 wins in a row.
              FACT – NZ, SA, Samoa and France all have better win-loss ratios than the Wallabies in 2012 and are all top ten nations.
              Thanks for playing.

          • December 6th 2012 @ 8:37am
            soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:37am | ! Report

            france came within 1 point of breaking that record, its certainly quite possible. nothing stays the same forever.

    • December 5th 2012 @ 8:09am
      mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:09am | ! Report

      i said last year that we were just as likely to lose one of the matches to ireland or Italy at 2011 RWC if we sustained too many injuries. That was what happened and I was not surprised. I posted that all it takes is a weakened side due to injury for us and we are not cappable of winning through to the half of the draw that we think. for the Ireland match we lost pocock and moore, plus Palu and robinson were unavailable. We got smashed up front! if this type of thing happens in 2015 well we simply don’t have the depth of NZ, England, France or SA.

      depending on injuries it is possible that we lose to both england and wales, or to one of them if we can’t have the likes of Genia Poocck etc avaialable. this is the possibility we face but we still have to support them people! yes i’m talking to people like red kev who simply should bow out of claiming to be a wallaby supporter.

      • December 5th 2012 @ 8:17am
        Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:17am | ! Report

        The Wallabies have to earn my support – they could start by playing decent rugby and not flying in a hack of a NZ coach.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 8:40pm
          Sage said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:40pm | ! Report

          The Wallabies don’t have to earn anything from me. I support them unconditionaly. For me, it isn’t a matter of choice.
          I agree that R Deans time is very limited though. It’s expected but I don’t see the point in him having any great concerns about 2015. I very much doubt he’ll be there. Not in his current capacity anyway.

          • December 6th 2012 @ 8:39am
            soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:39am | ! Report

            i support them but if they want my extra money and time and efforts (say encouraging others to watch) they need to provide more in return.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm
          Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm | ! Report

          Yeah! His nationality! Hes from NZ! No good rugby coaches come from there. I mean its not as if they are the best rugby nation by a mile. What were they thinking when they tried to get the best coach instead of being a d1¢k and making an issue of his nationality?

          Dude wtf is your problem?

          • December 5th 2012 @ 9:55pm
            mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:55pm | ! Report

            well said sir!

        • December 5th 2012 @ 10:50pm
          bill said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:50pm | ! Report

          nice one sage!!!! totally agree

        • December 6th 2012 @ 12:30am
          Ra said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:30am | ! Report

          Red dude, im sorry to inform you but the Wallabies know nothing about you and your little ranting in here. This is a closed forum set aside for the Has Beens, the Neva Eva Wilbes, the Wanabes and everyone else with an opinion, just to make sure that your iterations have the effect of wet toilet paper.

          now, what is your coaching background again????

      • December 5th 2012 @ 8:45am
        soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:45am | ! Report

        still 3 years away, might be a bit early to start drumming up the support by naming and shaming those who dont meet your standards

      • Roar Guru

        December 5th 2012 @ 11:41am
        Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:41am | ! Report

        Incorrect Mark – Palu was used as a sub in the 72nd minute for Rocky Elsom. Our starting backrow was Elsom, McCalman and Samo. Deans subbed Rocky for Cliff and the Higgers for Samo in the 74th minute – See ESPN Rugby Stats for verification.

        For the record – I will never stop supporting the Wallabies.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 11:47am
          mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:47am | ! Report

          i stand corrected Palu had not played much last year with injury and it must’ve been the next match that he got injured yet again and left the squad. When he left i remember thinking, there goes any chance we had.

          i too will never stop supporting them.

          • Roar Guru

            December 5th 2012 @ 11:50am
            Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:50am | ! Report

            I think he was injured against the USA or Russia.

      • December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm
        Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm | ! Report

        The Irish loss had little to do with injuries and much more to do with poor planning tactics and match day nous

    • December 5th 2012 @ 8:42am
      soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:42am | ! Report

      the draw is fairly irrelevant, if we’re poor enough to lose to england and wales we have no business pretending we’re anything like world champs

      • December 5th 2012 @ 9:10am
        mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:10am | ! Report

        well said

        this is a possibility. we still gotta support our boys though!

      • December 5th 2012 @ 9:39am
        formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:39am | ! Report

        but losing to Ireland at RWC 2011 was within Deans KPI’s.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 9:51am
          mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:51am | ! Report

          i disagree.

          Ireland smashed us and we just had to cop it. Did deans go out there and lose the breakdown contest himself? no. did it result in us not having a chance to beat new zealand in the semi. no. were we ever going to beat new zealand at eden park in a rwc semi or final….. no.

          • Roar Guru

            December 5th 2012 @ 11:29am
            Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:29am | ! Report

            Spoken like a true Deans apologist. Our lack of a genuine open side flanker to combat Sean O’Brien I think had its role to play in our deserved defeat at the hands of a good Irish team. I don’t agree with your statement “Ireland smashed us and we just had to cop it.” – you know rugby actually is a contact competitive sport – you are allowed to give it back. However we did not – a hall mark of the Deans tenure is mental fragility.

            Now Bryce Lawrence had a shocker on the whistle – proven he got three scrum penalties wrong – that is out of Robbie’s control but the poor squad selection was not – nor the ability to get his players up for the game or rally them at half time and just get on with it. Now Robbie was not only smarted in his squad selection he was outsmarted in his use of the bench in that game. Declan Kidney used 4 subs between the 49 & 61 minute mark. Robbie used 2 at the 62/3 minute mark then another 3 for the last 8 minutes. Another clear indicator the man has little capacity to use the bench effectively.

            Were we ever going to beat New Zealand at Eden Park. Why not! France just about did it in the final and were very unlucky not to do so. I think our boys were exhausted after the game against South Africa which we would not have had to play if we had beaten Ireland.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 11:38am
              mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:38am | ! Report

              mate sean obrien was a blindside flanker. in fact ireland didn’t even take one open side to the RWC at all. the notion that we lost beacsue we didn’t havean openside is true beacsue poock was injured but nobody else would’ve made a difference on that day.

              my point we got smashed and we had to just cop it is testament that in test rugby there are no guarantees. You win some you lose some. blaming the ref is ugly!

              blaming the use of the bench is not smart. our b side had lost a few tests earlier to samoa for christ sake. bringing on sub standard players is not smart.

              without Palu, Robinson and with an out of form Genia and Cooper… no we were never going to beat NZ at eden park… after all did we? France are a much better side than us also. evident by our trouncing last month.

              as for our players were tired? i;m confused if we had’ve beaten ireland would we not have had to play in the QF’s. good to know for next world cup. (where do you get these from?)

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm | ! Report

                Sean O’Brien –
                Test debut v Fiji- replacement for Dennis Leamy as an open side.
                v Sth Africa – subbed on for Stephen Ferris as a blind side.
                v Italy – subbed on for David Wallace as an open side.
                v Samoa – Open Side
                v Italy – No 8
                v France – Blind side
                v Wales Blind side
                v Scotland blind side
                v England blind side
                v France open side
                v France blind side
                v Australia open side
                v Russia open side
                v Italy open side
                v Wales open side
                v Wales open side
                v Italy open side
                v France open side
                v England open side
                v New Zealand x 3 – Open side

                Tests as a blind side – 6
                Tests as a No 8 – 1
                Tests as a Open Side – 16

                Mate our bench was not a bunch of B graders – Saia Faainga, James Slipper, Rob Simmons, Cliff Palu, Scott Higginbothm, Luke Burgess, Drew Mitchell – and your suggestion is not to use them? Well Robbie just about didn’t and we lost. If you think the bench is not a weapon in test rugb y Mark you’ve lost me seriously.

                Each game has its own machinations Mark – my point is we do not know how we would have gone against NZ in a final as opposed playing them after an exhaustive QF against SA. Of course we would have played a QF however I will not agree with you saying New Zealand were always going to win the RWC.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:33pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:33pm | ! Report

                Can also add David Wallace was selected for that tournament who is also an openside flanker but was injured against the poms – repalced by Shane Jennings who is also an openside flanker.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm
                Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm | ! Report

                To me Stephen Moore was a bigger loss then Pocock. TPN was underdone going in to the RWC and his set piece work was a joke in that game.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm | ! Report

                mate sean obrien rose to fame by being awarded european player of the year as a BLINDSIDE FLANKER! he is a running forward not an open side at all. He plays for ireland with a no 7 jersey because they have Heaslip and Ferris so there is nor room for him as a 6 or an 8. doesn’t make him an open side as much as mccalman can’t claim to be an open side either.

                Wallace was indeed kod and retired by Tuilagi in a warm up match before the rwc. i watched the match. Whether jennings replaced him or not i can’t recall but the fact remains they played without an opemside the entire world cup!

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:44pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:44pm | ! Report


                DAVID WALLACE – OPEN SIDE
                SHANE JENNINGS – OPEN SIDE

                Comparing O’Brien to McCalman – nah – O’Brien has been their 1st choice open side over blokes like Shane Jennings. Granted he came up as a blind side but his test career is that of an open side. What open side isnt a ball runner – McCaw is, Hooper is, Pocock is – O’Brien is!

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:03pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:03pm | ! Report

                btw i do think S Faingaa, Slipper, Higginbotham, Simmons and the unfit versions of Palu and Mitchell as a b grade bench. the only test standrad player amongst them was Burgess (Palu and mitchell only because they were coming back form injury and would’ve been too much of a risk)

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:06pm
                Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:06pm | ! Report

                Wallace and O’Brien played test Rugby at 7 as Ireland had no depth or options there. Wallace played a lot of games later on in his career at 7 for Munster because they had no one else bar players like Niall Ronan and a couple of kids. Ideally they would have played him at 6 or 8 but the team needed a 7 and they had 6 and 8 covered (O’Mahony, Quinlan, Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, James Coughlan, Nick Williams, etc). Munster never signed a Kiwi or Aussie openside as they had Wallace and they had a more South Africa philosophy towards the position.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:10pm
                Colin N said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:10pm | ! Report

                O’Brien is a blindside. The reason he often plays seven is because of Ferris – they want to play both.

                The reason they dominated the Australian trio is because the Wallaby back-row was immensely average.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 1:41pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:41pm | ! Report

                When Australia beat the All Blacks in Brisbane to win the 3N – Fainga’a, Simmonds, Higginbotham all contributed to the win in Brisbane and the series overall. I don’t consider them B grade. Furthermore if Deans selected unfit players on the bench then it strengthens my argument not only is he a poor user of the bench he is a poor selector of a bench.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:52pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:52pm | ! Report

                if you recall we were under an injury crisis and had to basically pick every available player in the match day 22 for starters for the match against Ireland. the fact that palu and mitchell both succumbed to injury in the next match or so proves that they were not quite right yet, but lets face it they are class and a gamble we had to take to the world cup, particularly Palu. in fact Palu’s selection was probbaly the reason hodgson missed out because frankly without plau (our only truly world class option at no 8) we’d not beat New zealand in new Zealand and Deans knew that. samo/higginboth/mccalman were simply minding his spot until he got match fit. He was that important to Deans plans and still is.

                secondly we won that game in the tri nations without any real contribuition from Higginbotham. His performance against SA was so poor he’d been dropped and replaced by samo who made one great run, scored a great try (running through an injured man mind you) got tired became a passenger for the rest of his minutes on the field and got subbed off. in no way is simmons a world class lock and s faingaa is the least powerful front rower in world rugby no matter how much heart he has.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 3:44pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:44pm | ! Report

                Markey Mark – I do recall that we were down to our last 22 becuase we had taken half fit players to the RWC – that in itself was a mistake paid for in Auckland. Agreed! I agree with you that Palu, when fir is out best option at 8. I think your being a touch harsh on old Radeke in that game in Brisbane. He actually played himself to a standstill. He actually made two tackle busts and ran for a total of 89 meters. I personally don’t care if the players were injured. Good thinking to run at one I reckon. He made 10 tackles and missed 1 (those numbers sound familiar) and obviously scored a wonderful try…at age 927. I agree with you that Higgers did little in that particular game- however he and the others did contribute to the 3N success. He was one of our better forwards in the 30-14 loss to NZ in Auckland but agree his game in Durban was not his best.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 5:48pm
                soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:48pm | ! Report

                yep when you decide to choose half fit players you cant deny responsibility when they arent available due to injury.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 6:18pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:18pm | ! Report

                yes but you can replace them if they get injured again. then you haven’t lost out leaving a player like palu out of a squad when you know he is vastly superior to the alternatives. it was a punt worth making. (we didn’t win it without him)

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 9:00pm
                jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:00pm | ! Report

                I know it has been said but at this stage it is worth repeating. The use of the bench against Ireland was pathetic. We were getting mugged in the forwards and had fresh legs on the bench that got given five minutes each.

                Mark, I know you don’t like to use reserves but since we had McCalman and Elsom in the starting side it was certainly worth giving Palu and Higgers some meaningful minutes.

                For the rest of it the decision to not carry a back up 7 in the overall squad was madness and given the injury to Robinson the decision to ignore Greg Holmes was another staggering move.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm | ! Report

                a bit of advice JN if you want to be taken seriously never ever mention greg holmes’ ommission from the wallaby squad as some kind of contributing factor to our lack of success ever ever again 🙂

                In terms of giving Palu and Higgers minutes in that match, Palu was not ready and i assume only in the squad to hopefully geta 5-10min cameo for the benefit of bringing him slowly back to match fitness and Higgers? well name one test match where he has proven himself a genuine test match backrower. Take italy a couple of weeks ago. i had to check the team sheet after i watched the match to see whether he actually played in that match. he did apparently.

                We lost that match because moore and pocock were late injury withdrawals. it had nothing to do with using the bench. It is feasible that if Deans had have made mass changes against ireland we’d have simply lost by more. Again i think since the loss to samoa Deans has lost all faith in his second stringers. The loss to scotland this year would’ve only consolidated that.

                as for not having a back up openside. neither did NZ. things turned out okay for them! ultimately the ireland lost did not see us have any less chance of winning the RWC. we still needed to beat NZ at Eden Park and we came up well short because, and here’s the clincher, THEY WERE AND ARE BETTER THAN US.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:12pm
                Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:12pm | ! Report

                So deans took a guy who could only play 5-10mins… Brilliant coaching indeed

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:35pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:35pm | ! Report

                he selected the only 22 players available due to injury crisis from memory

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 11:28pm
                jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:28pm | ! Report

                Holmes is good mark, since you can’t see that Deans has ever made a mistake then I guess it isn’t a mystery that you cannot see it.

              • December 6th 2012 @ 6:25am
                Ben.S said | December 6th 2012 @ 6:25am | ! Report

                Uncle, O’Brien is a blindside flanker. He played 7 solely to accomodate others and because he couldn’t be left out.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 11:44am
              formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:44am | ! Report

              Yeah, if the AB’s had come up against the Wallabies in the final -we had the perfect draw in 2011 – given the last result in Suncorp, you might well have seen the mother of all chokes. The AB’s tried so hard to lose to France, but the ref got them over the line.

              All because Deans failed to pick a backup openside in the squad – Beau Robinson was in hot form, or even Hodgson would probably have worked.

              But, as it turned out, from Deans point of view it didn’t matter: he got another 2 years, which may well be another 4.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 11:51am
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:51am | ! Report

                Beau Robinson is not a test match standard rugby player.

                none of the major sides brought back up opensides including the all balcks. ireland din’t even bring one and played the whole tournament with two blindsides.

                the reason is unless you have a truly world class openside there is no point them playing because they are ineffective and fail to influence anything. you may as well go in with a second blindiside.

                take hodgson and beau robinson they got smashed by the samoans last year and i’m sure they were rubber stamped ‘never to play test rugby again’.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:21pm
                Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:21pm | ! Report

                “The AB’s tried so hard to lose to France, but the ref got them over the line.”

                Yeah, Joubert made a bunch of tackles in the last 20 minutes didn’t he?

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm | ! Report

                Jerry – it was outstanding defence by Joubert 🙂

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:34pm
                Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:34pm | ! Report

                I also liked the way he spooked that French kicker so that he missed the go ahead penalty with about 15 minutes to play.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:40pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:40pm | ! Report

                Very cunning man that Joubert – come on mate would have he got out of Auckland alive otherwise 🙂

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm | ! Report

                Ireland named David Wallace but took Shane Jennings who are open sides.
                Scotland too Ross Rennie & David Barclay
                Italy – Maura Bergermasco and Paul Derbyshire
                SA – Broussow and Louw

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:18pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:18pm | ! Report

                when wallace was put into retirement i was under the impression they didn’t replace him with an open side. if jeenings did come to the world cup he certainly played no role becasue o’brien (a blindside flanker) played as their no 7 and still does.

                scotland have Rennie yes but Barclay is a ‘flanker’ in the mould of the french who generally have their 7 and 6’s as non descript flankers like Dusatoir and Bonnaire who played left and right flanker not open and blind as we do. Barclay also plays a lot of no 8. He is not what we consider an openside.

                who cares what italy does. south africa are the only ones that brought two open sides of the major nations!

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 1:49pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:49pm | ! Report

                Hi Mark – Shane Jennings played against the USA in the RWC 2011 as an open side flanker. He came as a sub for Sean O’Brien as an open side flanker against Russia. So he was there. Well I would not fall into the trap of writing off Italy.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 2:01pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:01pm | ! Report


                jenning s was so important for the irish he got a bit of game time against the USA and the russians. bringing out the big ones i see uncle!

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 3:46pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:46pm | ! Report


                I am bring out the big guns mate. Those were two of the greatest games of rugby ever played. Forget Baa Baa’s v All Blacks 73 of Wal’s v AB’s 2000 – these were for the ages 🙂 – Seriously it was just a response to your statement none of the major sides brought back up opensides including the all balcks. ireland din’t even bring one and played the whole tournament with two blindsides which is incorrect Markey Mark.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 9:03pm
                jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:03pm | ! Report

                NZ had Thomson who is at least a 6.5 – he has played plenty of openside. Very different from McCalman a 6/8/Lock. A balanced squad needed to be able to cover Pocock if he was to be out for one game.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 9:33pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:33pm | ! Report

                JN you are kidding. Thomson is not an openside. You cant just make stuff up! again did the loss to ireland have any effect on us getting through to the semis? no we lost to NZ in the semis instead of the final is all.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm
                Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm | ! Report

                Yeah I’m with mark, rather go out in the semis then be a chance in a one off final for the world cup. I dips me lid to you mark, foresight indeed…

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 11:36pm
                jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:36pm | ! Report

                Thomson is a 6 who has played plenty of 7 at both the Highlanders and for the All Blacks – if you say that isn’t true then you are the one making stuff up. It is a far cry from an 8 who plays a bit of 6 and lock being the cover for your openside which is what Robbie went with.

                I said it on the very first announcement of the Aussie squad for the RWC that carrying additional cover in 6/8 of Elsom, Higginbotham, Palu, Samo and McCalman was overkill. You should on pick two of those in your starting side and one on the bench to cover 6/8 and a reserve. The fourth player is squad cover and the fifth is overkill.

                Beau Robinson or Matt Hodgson as the next best behind Pocock were the obvious selection choices instead of a 5th man to cover 6/8.

                It was a selection blunder by Robbie and he has become so scarred by it that he tends to now put reserve cover for openside in his match day 22/23. This is overkill the other direction. Having Gill sitting on the bench unused through the northern tour was a mistake as he could have put in players able to substiture into 6, 8 and lock.

                I think Deans deserves to see out the end of his contract but unless he fixes a bunch of the errors he is making then he is no shoe in for a renewal.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 11:46am
              Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:46am | ! Report

              ”Now Bryce Lawrence had a shocker on the whistle – proven he got three scrum penalties wrong –”

              The scrum penalties where we had our heads shoved up our backsides in front of the posts? Lawrence wasn’t a factor at all we just played dumb inaccurate Rugby. Cooper butchered two overlaps 5 metres out by throwing stupid fancy passes in to touch rather then putting it through the hands. Then of course there was poor body height running in to contact which the Irish swallow up and gave them easy possession.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 11:57am
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:57am | ! Report

                Lawrence blunders his way out of a RWC semi-final – By David Lord

                To his credit, Lawrence has admitted to making multiple mistakes against the Wallabies in the shock 15-6 loss to Ireland, especially scrummaging, which accounted for six penalties at critical stages.
                “And there were other mistakes as well,” Lawrence admitted to publicly, without being specific.

                And from the Daily Telegraph – Many of the Kiwi referee’s decisions in the 15-6 win by Ireland at Eden Park – particularly at the scrum – appeared to baffle the Wallabies, and allowed Ireland to knock over decisive penalties or repel Australian pressure.But in a crucial twist, The Daily Telegraph understands Lawrence later made admissions he had got several calls wrong at the scrum – including one that led to an Ireland penalty goal – and conceded other decisions were also inaccurate.

                Not one of better games agreed Bakkies – but I think BJ Lawrence played his part.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:28pm
                Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:28pm | ! Report

                Nonsense Lawrence played his part and using the Daily Telegraph to back up your argument is not helping. Some of the scrummaging from the Wallabies was a joke and to ping it on the ref is deflecting the blame. He pinged Ireland for bad scrummaging too.

                There was of course the ridiculous last passes that weren’t heavily focussed on in the aftermath from AAC and Quade Cooper which conceded good opportunities, plus there was captain fantastic coming in from the side to give Ireland an easy 3 points. O’Connor missed two simple penalties which put us over a converted try behind Ireland.

                O’Brien is not an openside the coach just picks him there as other positions are covered, he is a blindside or number 8. He has played most of his test Rugby there because of Stephen Ferris at 6 and Heaslip at 8. Wallace played some games at 7 so he could play blindside when Ferris was out.

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm | ! Report

                So Lawrence’s own admissions don’t count?

                I agree Australia did not play well and I also said Ireland deserved their win, but Lawrence’s decisions surely affected the game Bakkies – weather it was the Daily Telegraph, The Roar or Penthouse – Lawrence admitted he made mistakes – I am only using the man’s own words – I didn’t put them in his mouth.

                So essentially your saying Bryce Lawrence had no affect on the game?

              • December 5th 2012 @ 12:47pm
                Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:47pm | ! Report

                I would ignore Lawrence’s admissions as he wasn’t responsible for the Wallabies losing the game. It was probably one of his better performances at test level (his worst was the 1st Lions test in SA). He wasn’t a particularly confident referee either (a confident one doesn’t need to explain their decisions to the media).

                As I said several times we butchered golden chances through stupid last passes (Cooper’s ridiculous no look pass which Bowe intercept cost us a chance at getting a bonus point as Ireland had to beat Italy heavily in their last match to get top spot if we took something away from that game), got turned over and driven backwards in to contact, lineout was a farce, O’Connor’s missed penalties, scrum fell apart. The commentator said we had been on the Ireland line for 5 minutes before Cooper threw that stupid behind the back pass that gave up key field position and we were down by 9 points. Stupid, stupid play. Why didn’t we go for the drop goal which would have nailed the bonus point, then go for the win with time left on the clock. Cooper should have been dropped after that performance

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 12:55pm
                Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:55pm | ! Report

                Bakkies – for the last time – Bryce did not lose us the game – however his poor refering of the scrum and elsewhere- by his own admission = contributed. Ireland were the better team and deserved their win – never said it otherwise.

            • December 6th 2012 @ 1:17am
              Parisien said | December 6th 2012 @ 1:17am | ! Report

              great post uncle!

          • December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm
            soapit said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm | ! Report

            mark i would agree that one game can be written off as an outlier but youd have to ignore how we played in the rest of the tournament.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 12:50pm
              Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:50pm | ! Report

              This article is useful to explain why we lost that game which effected the rest of our tournament.


              • December 5th 2012 @ 5:29pm
                soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:29pm | ! Report

                not convinced that game affected how we played the rest of the tournament, just who we played against.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm
              Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm | ! Report

              It effected our draw and path to the Final. It was absolute paramount to top that group so we had a QF against Wales, semi against France/England and let the Saffies knock the ABs over on home turf as they were the only team bar France do that in the World Cup cycle.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:14pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:14pm | ! Report

                nonsense, any one of those games could’ve been a different result. there could’ve been any combination of QF”s, semi finalists etc etc

                no one was going to beat the all balcks in a world cup in new zealand particularly because they have one of the best sides in the history of the game if not the best!

                lets get over ourselves.

              • December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am
                Bakkies said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am | ! Report

                So Mark you are saying that we couldn’t have opened ourselves to a RWC possible Final against the Springboks by being on the other side of the draw. We hit a brick wall by being on the toughest side of the draw.

                As for NZ not being beatable I debate that. They only won the Final by a point off a penalty (which looked like it missed by the way).

              • December 6th 2012 @ 8:30am
                soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:30am | ! Report

                you have to look how well we played in the knockout though and i’d say it would have been touch and go to win any of those games (just like the bok game was very touch and go)

                i’m always of the opinion play well and the draw will look after itself – if your thinking you want to win the thing, lower nations may sweat the draw to try and get as deep as they can but they have different benchmarks.

                i do think it would be harder to beat SA, NZ 2 in a row then wales, france but it didnt have a huge impact compared to our own poor play

              • December 6th 2012 @ 11:58am
                Sage said | December 6th 2012 @ 11:58am | ! Report

                “no one was going to beat the all balcks in a world cup in new zealand particularly because they have one of the best sides in the history of the game if not the best! ” – Just reading with interest until now but Mark your above statement is absolute tosh.
                And – I’ll never forgive Robbie for ignoring Beau Robinson as an openside option at the WC. And I believe he wasn’t able to galvanise his troops or change his game plan at half time to adjust to the way the Irish had approached that game and the WB’s. Kidney outhought and outcoached him.

    • December 5th 2012 @ 9:48am
      Blue Blood said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:48am | ! Report

      I detest Deans talking about the importance of depth. His selections have done nothing to develop depth in Australian rugby. He only even changes out his favourites when forced to by injury. None but his favourites ever get a look in. Do you think Hooper would have got close to the pitch if Pocock wasn’t injured? Especially after the surprising loss in Newcastle at the start of the international season? The same thing happened to Hodgson and he spent the next 4 years lucky to get in the 22 and got 6 caps. He never had the opportunity like Hooper to get into the flow of international rugby. Even getting 3 man of the match performances when on his first Spring Tour in a team full of established Wallabies, Deans still couldn’t tell you Hodgo’s first name. The guy has squandered many worthy Wallabies.

      Deans hasn’t a clue how to blood new talent unless it is forced upon him.

      • December 5th 2012 @ 9:55am
        mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:55am | ! Report

        deans used 40 or so players this year for the wallabies. if that doesn’t help us in terms of depth i’m not sure what would?

        • December 5th 2012 @ 11:45am
          formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:45am | ! Report

          picking the right players in the first place? We only got Taps at 12 when McCabe was injured.

          • December 5th 2012 @ 11:54am
            mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:54am | ! Report

            um Deans gave taps his test debut 12 months ago despite he’d only just come back from injury. Taps then got injured again this year and yet Deans still picked him and took him on tour despite having little rugby under his belt.

            Taps also made 3 major errors in defence against wales which could’ve coast us the game if not for others eg palu cleaning up the mess he made.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 1:47pm
              Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:47pm | ! Report

              Taps only got s run this time because dean’s love child got injured didn’t he?

              • December 5th 2012 @ 1:56pm
                kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

                I believe Tapuai played last year so wasn’t just a reserve in Deans’ mind 🙂

              • December 5th 2012 @ 3:42pm
                Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:42pm | ! Report

                So why wasn’t he picked this year when he was ready to go?

              • December 5th 2012 @ 6:19pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:19pm | ! Report

                is he an automatic pick? i don’t think so. he is an unproven talent and a liability in defence.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:13pm
                Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:13pm | ! Report

                You bet he is and he isn’t…

        • Roar Guru

          December 5th 2012 @ 12:03pm
          Hoy said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:03pm | ! Report

          I think Blue was saying he would have only played 22 if he could, but because of injury, he was FORCED to use those other players.

          And depth being created through injury, not selection, might be beneficial if he actually nurtured those new players and made them better. Is anyone getting better playing for the Wallabies?

        • December 5th 2012 @ 1:13pm
          Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:13pm | ! Report

          Yeah read the comment by BB again Mark. Do you think that Deans would have used the players he has this year if his top picks werent injured? BB I agree with you 100%. Deans has sqandered the depth we do have in Australia the last 4 years. This year he has been forced to establish depth and there have been some good finds. There has also been some glaring holes in depth too.

          • December 5th 2012 @ 1:27pm
            mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:27pm | ! Report

            yes becasue our super xv sides are playing such great rugby (sacrastic of course) it is a sin that Deans can’t put together a decent squad of players?

            when the reds lost by 70 point sin SA for instance did any of you call for mckenzie’s sacking?

            • December 5th 2012 @ 6:21pm
              Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:21pm | ! Report

              61-8 thank you very much.
              Also you are referring to a where a 30-man super rugby squad was missing Cooper, Harris, Lucas, and Lane from the no.10 jersey and were playing Dallan Murphy there (and had Jono Lance injured during the match)? No, losing 5 pivots is a pretty decent excuse – it even excuses playing Genia at 10 for part of that match.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 8:06pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:06pm | ! Report

                61-8 isn’t something i’d be bringing up.

                i see you believe that injuries are a good excuse for poor performance. I take it then that you feel Deans has done an excellent job considering all the injuries he’s had to many of his preferred 5/8’s plus all the others as well including genia, pocock etc

              • December 5th 2012 @ 8:37pm
                Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:37pm | ! Report

                Nice of you to walk straight into that set up – no it is no excuse for Deans.
                Deans’ first choice five-eighth is Barnes – first Bledisloe, best chance to win it in a decade owing to two matches in Australia with everyone except JOC available that is who he chose. The fact he has now moved Barnes to fullback is just further evidence of his ineptitude as a selector.
                Deans’ second choice scrum-half has been Phipps for the past two years.
                Furthermore Deans has not had 5 injuries in any one spot, and certainly none of the deep injury problems have been at such a pivotal spot.

            • December 5th 2012 @ 6:23pm
              Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:23pm | ! Report

              Mark your inability to answer a direct question is baffling.

              You obviously have your own view but you want to comment on other’s views without actually addressing the points they make. Go rant as you will, but don’t make it in reply to other’s comments unless you are going to a) use basic reading comprehension and b) address what that person is actually saying.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 6:34pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:34pm | ! Report

                ‘Deans has sqandered the depth we do have in Australia the last 4 years’ thats what i was responding to. i don’t answer silly questions like ‘do you think he would have used all those players this year if not for injury’ its frankly a silly pointless question.

                over the past 4 years we have only ever had 15-20 decent test standard players. who are all these wonderful players that missed out on selection in wallaby squads? who brought through horwill, pocock, genia, cooper, beale, JOC, ioane, Robinson, alexander, etc etc etc?

              • Roar Guru

                December 5th 2012 @ 9:23pm
                jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:23pm | ! Report


                You are looking over the four years? That includes persisting with Brown, Mumm and Baxter for horrendously long periods.

                In this season alone Deans has ignored Greg Holmes, Dan Palmer, Nic White and required injury before he’d play Nathan Sharpe, Nick Cummins and Ben Tapuai. (I agreed with him on Sharpe but have to eat humble pie on that one)

                During this NH tour he ignored Samo for Dennis in the last two games and failed to pick Neville as SR cover in the Italy game.

                In the world cup squad McCalman was 6/8 cover when he already had Elsom, Higginbotham, Samo and Palu which was overkill.

                Hodgson who can also cover 6/8 but most importantly could cover the sole openside in Pocock was the correct selection.

              • December 5th 2012 @ 9:44pm
                mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:44pm | ! Report

                g’day again JN.

                who were the obvious better players to mumm, brown and baxter at the time. From memory mumm didn’t play much and toured because we were simply short on no’s to cover lock and no 6. brown again simply who were the other no 8 candidates at the time and baxter again who were the amazing tight heads running around dominating super 14 at the time?

                he has ignored greg holmes because he is an average player, plamer has not developed an all round game and had a good chance to impress against scotland where we lost a test due to failure at scrum time which is meant to be his bag and nic white is hardly genia or burgess and i believe he’s been injured anyways.

                sharpe is the captain JN, cummins got achance and took it good on him (with a full complimet of wingers he is not going to play much test rugby… be realsitic) and taps was given his test debut by Deans on last years spring tour and went straight back into the wallaby set up, despite that he has missed the bulk of the alst 2 seasons of super rugby. he has a bad reputation as a defensive liability and that was proven to be a flaw against wales. watch this space.

                again you keep harping on the mediocre hodgson and really the loss to ireland did not cost us anything but an alternate rout to the final not there is any convincing evidence that hodgson would’ve made any difference whatsoever. Hodgson was left out for the greater good ie plau had to be in the squad as our only world class no 8.

                samo for dennis. what has samo done in the past 12 months????

                keep it real man!

              • December 5th 2012 @ 10:16pm
                Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:16pm | ! Report

                If wrong ignore the facts and make up the rest…

              • Roar Guru

                December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am
                jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am | ! Report

                who were the obvious players? Alexander and Kepu were ready to replace Baxter long before Alexander got subbed in, by the end Dunning was a superior tighthead to Baxter as well.

                For Mumm and Brown, they weren’t working so we needed to look at anyone else and give them a shot Mowen, Chapman, Chisolm, Caldwell, Hand, Houston, Horwill, Higginbotham, McMeniman….there were plenty of options that meant once these guys were seen to fail repeatedly that the net had to be thrown wider, earlier.

                I find it odd that you seem so happy to write Hodgson off given few opportunities and even support McCalman being used out of position to fill a spot. Yet at the same time you support Deans in not trialling widely for players to replace the likes of these three above.

              • Roar Guru

                December 6th 2012 @ 12:14am
                jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:14am | ! Report

                ps with Cummins – why was Cooper Vuna picked in front of him? Why did Dom Shipperly play with a broken hand before Deans would consider him? I’m not saying the guy should be there if the entire backline is fit but he was bizarrely overlooked when there were clear opportunities to pick him.

                Taps did’t come straight back in, he sat in camp waiting until McCabe got injured – very different situation, he wasn’t included in a matchday squad until Deans was forced to start him. If he had been in the planning as many people were calling for him to be then he could of played on the bench as McCabe could always move to one of the outside back positions that he actually naturally and historically is.

              • December 6th 2012 @ 12:53am
                kingplaymaker said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:53am | ! Report

                jeznez, firstly Vuna has far more talent that Shipperely or Cummins which is why he was chosen first.

                Of course he still has far less talent than Israel Folau as will soon be clear.

                Regarding Tapuai, throwing a recently injured player with little test experience into ferocious RC games is not a recipe for success. Deans clearly planned to use him at an easier point, and did play him the year before. Nor for what it’s worth is Tapuai the miracle-worker one might think from reading Reds’ supporters accounts of him.

                At some stage Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Sautia, Folau, JOC, Beale and maybe Tomane will fight out the backline positions, and the Tapuais and others will no longer be seen.

              • Roar Guru

                December 6th 2012 @ 2:43am
                jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 2:43am | ! Report

                KP, not much point us covering old ground but I like believe that Vuna should have been nowhere near a test jumper this season. His athletic attributes are good and he is great with ball in hand but every other facet of his game is flawed.

                Until he fixes his defensive frailty, starts to work off the ball and develops an ability to read a game then he should not be in gold. Kicking would be nice as well but I could forgive him that flaw if he fixed the rest of his play.

                I know you feel differently.

        • December 5th 2012 @ 7:04pm
          Blue Blood said | December 5th 2012 @ 7:04pm | ! Report

          Yep you clean missed my point Mark. Others got it so I’ll leave it at that

      • December 5th 2012 @ 9:07pm
        Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:07pm | ! Report

        Yeah Deans was forced to select Hooper…well kind of. I mean he was selected WHEN POCOK WAS STILL FIT but whatever. He was forced to select Timani against Samoa last year…actually no he wasnt. Well he was forced to somebody. Im sure you had a point but nothing to back it up.

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