It seems that, for all intents and purposes, this year’s Heineken Cup will be the last. Discussions between the English and the French on the one side and the countries that make up the Pro12 have broken down.
The Anglo-French have signified they want to start their own breakaway competition.
When it all boils down, there are one basic point each of the sides in the ERC debate (Anglo-French clubs, and Pro12 Clubs) have close to their hearts that neither refuses to let go. They are as follows:
Anglo-French
Merit qualification. Allowing both Scottish and both Italian Pro12 as well as the majority of Welsh and Irish teams allows those teams to tank in their domestic league.
Not to mention the fact the winner of the prior year’s Heineken Cup gives their competition an extra spot has in the past few years essentially guaranteed all Irish teams would able to enter.
Pro12
All the major European rugby nations are represented. The poor showing of the Italian Pro12 teams, not to mention the problems of the Dragons and Edinburgh would mean a large degree of the European rugby public would be left without a team in the running.
Both of these issues are, upon reflection, self-evident and unavoidable.
It was always going to be the case that a team guaranteed qualification wouldn’t put as much emphasis on their domestic league, especially when compared to the leagues where competition has been instilled by the threat of exclusion.
On the other hand, the pure statistical fact that Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and Italy have either smaller rugby populations or smaller overall populations meant their clubs might not be able to compete.
But there’s no reason why they’re irreconcilable. Consider the proposed reduction of places down to 20 from 24.
Assuming the winner of the Challenge Cup and the previous winner of the Heineken Cup are automatically qualified, that gives 18 open spaces.
This means each of the three major leagues in the competition would each receive six places.
For the Top 14 and the Premiership it would be a straight table/ladder comparison, but the Pro12 could have their spots allocated so that Ireland, Italy, Wales, and Scotland are each guaranteed at least one spot.
The last two would be overall in the league – wildcards, if you will.
The team that qualifies to take each of those countries’ places are also the best of the respective country.
In such a scenario, competition for qualification is re-introduced into the Pro12 without compromising the ability of the Pro12 countries to be represented. It’s a pretty clear win-win.
However, then we turn to the issue of why such an obvious solution hasn’t been reached. It would appear this solution is much more to the liking of the Anglo-French clubs.
They would, after all, get their reduction in numbers, and merit qualification with no real change to what it means for their clubs.
I hardly think the Pro12 countries would have been pushing this compromise given they have to step back somewhat in order to get there.
This leads me to believe the Pro12 countries haven’t been the ones budging. This is also why, in my opinion, the Anglo-French have been so ready to set up their own alternative.
A lack of settlement on the part of the Pro12 unions has forced the Anglo-French to bring out the big guns and show them that this compromise is still better than the alternative, which is no Pro12 clubs at all.
Rumour is South African Currie Cup teams are considering joining. The Pro12 unions would be wise to realise that the above compromise may not be as good for them as the current Heineken Cup model has been in the past, but it’s better than nothing at all.
But one other interested party should be the ARU. If South African teams do join this new ‘Champion’s Cup’, as it has been christened, where does SANZAR go with Super Rugby?
As it stands it seems most SA rugby fans already want out of Super Rugby, sometimes for similar reasons as the Anglo-French clubs who want out of the Heineken Cup. Both Super Rugby and the Heineken Cup may be on the way out.
The ARU would do well to plan ahead and make sure if Super Rugby continues as just the Australian and New Zealand conferences. Would the broadcast money and fan interest be there?
Is there room for a new franchise in each of the conferences to make up the numbers again? Would a re-jigged finals qualification scheme work out?
Given the ARU’s reliance on Super Rugby in order to develop Test-quality players and fan interest, this could very quietly become an existential crisis, at least until the new changes to club rugby in Australia get sorted out.
In the mean time, however, if this new future of club rugby includes a Champions League-style club cup, the ARU should also consider the perils of the Heineken Cup when designing it.
Either way, one hopes the ARU have one eye on Europe, watching very attentively over the next few months.
chris
Guest
Both codes of Rugby are in a right messy mess and things will get worse when non trad Rugby codes will put in the $$$$$$ with 7's and leave out the 15 man code. Maybe the celts PRO12 clubs should go over to Super League and breath live in the dying comp.
ScotandProud
Guest
The game has to stay in the hands of the Unions.
ScotandProud
Guest
100% behind you Dave. Union isn't strong enough to just go with market forces. It6s about growing the game internationally, the 6 N will suffer is one consequence, a bunch of mercenaries playing in Southern England and France (its not like Sarries play anywhere near the best rugby in the British Isles or even in England) is not the way forward: parliament stepped in when the RFU got itself in a mess, I hope the IRB steps in now.. A disaster in the making..
Neil
Guest
@ The Bush If you read up a bit more on this whole debacle in the northern hemisphere press you will learn that the Irish have been quite happy to have qualification through their league position they have conceded this from the start almost. What the English and French are gaming at is to get more money through running their own competition and trying to bully their way into it, remember essentially this new competition the celtic nations have been asked to join will be run by the french and English clubs they will get very little say in the competition that is hardly fair is it. You can rattle off arguments about TV rights shares etc but the whole European competition was designed to develop rugby in countries without a strong base, if you exclude them how do they develop. Arguing that the Amlin cup is a development competition is laughable we have seen how the champions league and the Europa league have developed there is no money in the Europa league and the chasm between rich and poor has opened this new rugby championship would do the same and the celtic nations best players will move to the rich clubs exacerbating the problem. I'm all for the development of a club ru competition but it is probably 20 years too early we need to concentrate on the development of the game as a whole not for short term financial gain. If the English clubs are losing money well thats their poor financial mismanagement not because of the structure of the Heineken cup. They make more money from the PRL anyway.
Tom Harwood
Guest
For all the talk about qualification and distribution of finances, it is only really about one thing: power. The clubs of England and France want to run the cross-border game instead of the unions. The major threat is not the South African franchises switching in 2015, although that is real enough, but rather the concentration of financial club power against which ARU and NZRFU cannot possibly compete when PRL/LNR clubs come recruiting down south.
rus
Guest
answer on comment September 24th 2013 @ 7:47pm It will be very difficult for me, since I do not speak English (I only translate your thoughts with Russian via Google translator, but partially lost the sense and a lot of errors). Also, I can not predict the situation across the all-European rugby, but I know well the situation in Russia and some neighboring countries (and even suggest different projects for the development of rugby in Russia, sometimes in Europe), but I do not have global knowledge of rugby. But I can write some thoughts in the comments.
Johnno
Guest
rus if you ever get the time how about an article of what like Europa rugby could like say in 2020 or 2025. Be good if all this could be compiled into 1 article. Big changes are now going on in Europe.
Sharktooth
Guest
Johnno I see Australia mentioned a few more times in your post than mine. I had no idea they were so c#&p at our wonderful game ;-) You have just made another point here that the wins against SH teams are so rare that you can only list a handful of them over the last decade. You also forgot to mention England beating the AB's end of 2012. AT least I remembered that one because England failed to beat the WB's and Boks the weeks prior to that game.
rus
Guest
I agree , and if there is an opportunity for clubs from any European country to get into European competition through the qualification ( as in football ) , it will boost not only in the 2 -level , but also countries in 3 levels. For example, in the Russian league plays a lot of foreigners from Moldova, Little Russia (Ukraine) and Kazakhstan. If in these countries will see that there is a real opportunity to break into the European competition , they will be able to finance akkamulirovat and return those players to go out with them on the European level . But they see the future Dolny . For example , the situation in the Little Russian . There is a league where two professional club Olymp Kharkov and Kredo-63 Odessa , the other amateurs, there is normally wins when Olymp 115-0 or 88-0 . But they are the champions every year and they have nowhere to grow , it makes no sense to invite the stronger players . Their president was once the owner of FC Metallist Kharkov ( played constantly in the Europa League ) with a budget of more than EUR 50 million , but he sold it recently . Do you think that if a European rugby structure was not a conservative , would be a chance that the Kharkov billionaire to invest several million euros in its rugby club . to match the level of the European cups ? I think "yes." But now there are no prospects . The same goes for rest Russia , we have too much money , but they have nowhere to spend it.
Johnno
Guest
rus I like your write ups, it's good. Europa rugby is devleoping, and this new club structure could eb the driver , champion's league style.
rus
Guest
I'll add that in Romania recently clubs became intensified and they now want to play themselves in the Amlin Cup, and not put the franchise Bucharest Wolves. For example, Timisoara and Steaua. In Georgia, the situation is more complicated in club rugby. All the best players are leaving to France, there is only youth, but maybe they can put at least one franchise with the best players of his league.
Johnno
Guest
nos,France won the Euro basket titles for the 1st time, I think. They beat Lithuania to be champions. And France at Sydney 2000 Olympics, got silver medal in men's basketball, beating Australian boomers in the semi-finals. He's a toothless shark nos lol.
JB
Guest
rus, I think the addition of Russian clubs would be great for European rugby and I don't understand why none has been added to the Amlin Cup yet
JB
Guest
Dublin Dave, my comment was more directed at all those pundits that continue to claim that South African teams will join the European Cup (whatever form it takes). I think it will be unfair to any European team to be excluded to accommodate a South African franchise. Whether it is the ERC or the potential new entity that would run such a comp, there is no place for non-european teams in those cups.
rus
Guest
We are not talking about replacing Edinburgh or Zebra, we get seats in the 2nd tournament (Amlin Cap), it would be a good thing. The level can be understood only indirectly, as our clubs have never played in the European Cups. If we talk about the pre-season games, the clubs from Romania, Georgia, Portugal and Italy, Russian clubs win on 90% matches. At the last preseason Krasny Yar uchastoval Rugby Festival in the Algarve in Portugal, where he beat the last champion of the Cup of Iberia (best club in Spain and Portugal at the time) 24-45. But you know that last season's Amlin Cap played the Spanish club's Guernica, and the new season will be the Portuguese team ...Also in Portugal in April, they played with the British Army: Brit Army 17-41 London Irish Brit Army 20-31 Krasny Yar https://www.facebook.com/algarve.rugby.festival VVA once played against Grenoble and won - it was 2.5 years ago, when the VVA was the champion of Russia, and Grenoble winner of Pro D2. French experts compare the level of the first 3 Russian clubs like Pro D2. I think it objectively. But do not forget we varimsya in its own juice, very rarely clubs play international matches, so participation in the European Cup will give a huge boost to popularize, promote rugby on federal TV, attracting new sponsors ...
Bruticus
Roar Pro
Well since this is a rugby forum and we are rugby fans the only subject that matters is rugby. If we cared about football and science then we would find an appropriate forum and comment. Plastic competition? Super rugby has been around since arguably 1986. How long as the Heineken Cup been around for? Or the Celtic League? I'm sorry it's the Magners League now isn't it?...oh hang on! Regardless, they are fine elastic competitions with at least 654 years of fine NH tradition eh? Some wonderful clubs take part in the best competitions the NH, no, the world, has to offer too. Clubs such as Pontypridd, Bridgend, Llanelli (one of a handful of ALL NH teams to have beaten the All Blacks), Borders rugby etc...or do they? How are these fine clubs represented in those fine, traditional competitions? I'm pretty sure the Ospreys, Cardiff Blues, Edinburgy Rugby etc aren't fake franchises at all so it can’t be by them. Very, very elastic and very, very traditional. Speaking of Borders rugby, I'm sure alot of people will be interested to know that the Borders league was the very first league to be set up anywhere in the world (as per our trusty source Wikipedia). A wonderfully traditional league and clubs which still thrives today unlike the hundreds of clubs that had to be disbanded to set up the Crusdaders. Right. (bonus points to anyone who can name one club, region, state or province that has been ‘killed’ to support any Super franchise!) We had to implement a stay-at-home selection policy because we are selfish and only want the best for ourselves. This is of course as opposed to the completely unselfish threats that the English and Welsh RFUs have in place. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/england-coach-stuart-lancaster-reiterates-francebased-player-policy-8216101.html http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/cardiff-blues-boss-peter-thomas-2525075 The fact that the only the reason these Unions do not have a similar selection policy is because it would break European Law is completely beside the point. I’ll tell you what nickoldschool, you can keep your traditions and we’ll keep our wins. In a hundred years, we’ll have both.
Colin McCann
Guest
Very good point. Great research too, although I'd like to hear/see more about their competitiveness at this level, but if they're good enough, why should they be excluded to let it Zebre or Edinburgh?
Colin McCann
Guest
It's been profitable in the Celtic Countries since it essentially represents the top tier. English and Welsh fans have realized it's uncompetitive and have tuned out. One only needs to look at the Saracens vs Toulon semifinal last year. It had a dismal attendance.
Colin McCann
Guest
I was just about to bring that up. I should also add that stuffing the H Cup with Celtic teams has meant the Amlin Challenge Cup, the second tier gets filled with amateur clubs from Portugal and Spain. Expecting them to compete with even the bottom half of the Premiership is patently ridiculous
Colin McCann
Guest
Good question. Given the time zone difference between London and Johannesburg is much less than Johannesburg and Auckland, I'd estimate TV contracts would generally be better for SA. Likely would get a bigger audience since it would be at a more convenient time. And with regards to tourism, I don't know anything concrete. If European fans are more amenable to travelling to watch away games this would surely be better for them from that perspective