The coaching credentials required to achieve Asian World Cup Qualification and Asian Cup success compared to those needed to succeed in the FIFA World Cup finals are poles apart.
This key ingredient seems missing in much of the current intense and sometimes jingoistic conversations across the nation, while FFA ponders a replacement for the hapless Holger Osieck.
The limitations at the highest international level of the likeable Holger and his more controversial predecessor, Pim Verbeek, have been there for all to see.
Thankfully Holger’s inadequacies have been rectified soon after the Asian qualifiers, unlike that long wait to the 2010 World Cup Finals, to experience that 4-0 German drubbing in Durban’s Moses Mabhida Stadium, before Pim was exposed.
In both cases the FFA made the correct choice by engaging coaches with the appropriate Asian regional experience to tackle the non-trivial challenge of World Cup qualification.
But, what it did not recognise, is that a World Cup Finals national team manager‘s job description is an entirely different proposition.
While both had been World Cup Finals’ assistants, neither had had valued Finals head coach experience, not to mention been successful at it.
In Osieck’s case, his highest qualification was under Franz Beckenbauer in West Germany’s Italia 90 win, whereas Verbeek achieved the position of the South Korean World Cup Finals’ support act, beneath Guus Hiddink in 2002 and Dick Advocaat in 2006.
So with all due respect for the sentimental support behind the aspiring A-League candidates, Postecoglou, Arnold and co, Australian football just can’t afford to have anyone on their “L Plates” guiding its most precious asset on world sport’s preeminent stage.
It clearly needs someone who has “been there and done that.”
The World Cup Finals are just too important an event for the beautiful game’s ongoing profile, development and future to attempt an experiment with an unproven national team manager, wherever he may come from.
What is required is a tactical and man management expert who will effectively utilise the available talent pool, by getting it to play above itself, much like “Aussie Guus” did so successfully in Germany in 2006.
A leader with a profile that is a cut above Verbeeck and Osieck, but who can get the best out of working with players of a lower technical ability, than what is found in the top 10 nations.
Someone who can adapt to the adolescent development phase Australian football is in at the moment.
A time when it is grappling to rid itself of its British-inspired, physical “triathlon-with-a -ball” past and the need to transform to a more astute, technical, tactical and more beautiful footballing playing nation.
This appointment is no easy task for FFA and is some ways a much easier proposition for the “big” footballing nations.
Unlike Australia, those “big” countries (Italy, Germany, Brazil, Argentina et al) can more easily attract a myriad of candidates of the highest calibre to take them all the way through their respective inter-Continental competitions (Copa America or Euro Nations Cups), World Cup Qualification matches and the World Cup Finals.
Ideally FFA have stated that it try find someone to carry on with the job from Brazil through to the Australian-hosted Asian Cup competition in 2015.
But this objective may not be practically possible.
The World Cup Finals’ management post should, however, remain the priority.
It may require a solution whereby an assistant is appointed to work under the head coach for the World Cup Finals, with the intent of taking over the top role for the Asian Cup.
While it is often used as a benchmark in the region, Japan Football Association (JFA) may also have not have got their head coach appointment quite right.
After WC2010 in South Africa, it hired the experienced Italian Serie A manager, Alberto Zaccheroni, who in turn re-generated the Blue Samurai squad (unlike Holger did for Australia) and won both the Asian and East Asian Cups.
However, with all that, he did not manage to win a game at the recent Confederations Cup in Brazil.
Zaccheroni has since been accused by some critics of attempting to have the team perform at a tactical level above its capability and experience.
This is one of the reasons given for their lack of success at the Confederations Cup despite having such technically gifted players.
With all his top European club experience, Zaccheroni has never coached a national team before, not to mention worked with the growing pains of an emerging football nation.
For FFA, there is a lesson to be learned there somewhere from JFA’s experience, while it goes through the current recruitment process.
I remember saying when the Socceroos made the second round of the World Cup Finals in 2006.
“We need to savour the moment, as it may not happen again for a long while yet.”
Simoc
Guest
Its lucky the 57th ranked Socceroos have so many supporters on the Roar and elsewhere that know everything. Unfortunately management and the players only have the scoreboard. Seems to me we're in the easiest group to qualify for the World Cup and we've done well to qualify. It may not happen again for a few more coaches after Brazil. This long term coach talk is just that, talk. It's about results and if you don't get them you're in strife no matter what your name is.
fadida
Guest
That's what he's saying Jukes :D
Jukes
Guest
@ Fadida Atti is saying that for all this time we currently have our best XI on the park especially in the World Cup qualifying matches and for the games against Brasil and France. More importantly he is saying that there are no players currently that can replace the likes of Neill, Carney, Jedinak, Wilkshire, Schwarzer.or McKay. He thinks just because we have a coach such as Holger who has limited playing stocks we should allow the status quo to continue because he got us to the World Cup.
Jukes
Guest
double post
Jukes
Guest
You are truly delusional. You have obviously fallen down a flight of stairs, gotten back up and fallen down the stairs again. Tell me which country in the world or which club in the world gives someone a 6 year contract. You have got to be kidding. Did I say when we are regenerating players we play a team where every single player barely has a cap to their name. Of course they are going to lose. They didn't embarass themselves in the East Asia Tournament. I am also talking about the qualifying tournament when we played the likes of Hong Kong, what was it Rogic, one game, absolutely smashed it. Where did I say we play Brasil, France with every single player a new player or a player to be regenerated. I have been crying for our back 4 to be regenerated FFS. THAT IS OUR PROBLEM. Please dont fall down the stairs again. These are our problem players or where we have options to replace. Schwarzer. Neill, McKay, Carney, Jedinak (switch to CB), Wilkshire. Every single player I have mentioned here is replaceable by a better player either overseas or in the A-league. Wake up to yourself.
Jukes
Guest
You are truly delusional. You have obviously fallen down a flight of stairs, gotten back up and fallen down the stairs again. Tell me which country in the world or which club in the world gives someone a 6 year contract. You have got to be kidding. Did I say when we are regenerating players we play a team where every single player barely has a cap to their name. Of course they are going to lose. They didn't embarass themselves in the East Asia Tournament. I am also talking about the qualifying tournament when we played the likes of Hong Kong, what was it Rogic, one game, absolutely smashed it. Where did I say we play Brasil, France with every single player a new player or a player to be regenerated. I have been crying for our back 4 to be regenerated FFS. THAT IS OUR PROBLEM. Please dont fall down the stairs again. These are our problem players or where we have options to replace. Schwarzer. Neill, McKay, Carney, Jedinak (switch to CB), Wilkshire. Ever single player I have mentioned here is replaceable by a better player either overseas or in the A-league. Wake up to yourself.
Subbed
Guest
Marcelo Bielsa is the man; Lowy shouldn't be omitting him from the field of NT coaching candidates for whatever reason. That's all there is to it from me!
fadida
Guest
Had to scan your stream of consciousness to find a lucid point or 2. So you ARE saying that no other coach could have done any better given the available players? This either means a) Osieck is at the very top of the coaching tree and there is noone who could do better or b) coaches have no influence on the players they coach, which goes back to my point, if so why have them if quality of player is the only determinant of results? Both are ridiculous and discredit you. There are so many examples of coaches producing more than the sum of the parts. It is after all the role of the coach (the good ones at least) Zico? Classic case of a brilliant player whose coaching career falls well short. If we want a "name" pick him. If you want an appropriate coach don't.
Atti Abonyi
Guest
Goodness gracious me you and your friend Fadida are clearly delusional and know very little about coaching or football. The parameters are set by the FFA, he was given 3 years not 6 years. Yes, he already knew he had an ageing squad, so he as a good coach goes to the governing body at the commencement of his tenure and they say to him the "goal is to qualify and bring in some fresh faces". He's done both. You say he didn't need permission(that's the whole problem), how laughable indeed to make such an assertion. So then he should have just refreshed & regenerated the squad according to you without having clear instructions from the FFA and Lowy & disobeyed them and then we wouldn't be at Brazil, you can't have it both ways. You say he has rested on his laurels, that is utter rubbish. You are clearly deluded by what you think are some of the players abilities who are not up to the standard required, but "play the youngsters, play the youngsters", some of who are clearly not up to it. The qualification started in 2011 not 2013. If Osieck had been told to regenerate then he would have, he wasn't, it is clear as day. He's done as well as he could have with the clear requirements he was given. Here is the squad v Japan at east Asian Cup July 25, 2013 , yet you persist with the rubbish that he has not given players a chance; AUSTRALIA Galekovic, Goalkeeper - 5 Ivan Franjic Defender Jade North Defender Michael Thwaite Defender 17 Ryan McGowan Defender - 10 Dario Vidosic Midfielder 57 - 15 Matt McKay Midfielder 88′ Mark Daniel Milligan Defender Archie Thompson Attacker Subs Cornthwaite-Mooy-Paartalu-Nichols-Taggart Here is the team he put out against China; M. Birighitti R. McGowan R. Cornthwaite C. Goodwin E. Paartalu M. McKay Substituted M. Nichols Substituted A. Mooy 30' J. Brillante M. Duke 90+4' T. Jurić Substituted You are talking out of your posterior that he hasn't given players chances. In 2012 he played Emerton in that EAC, are you saying that it would be good to test out some players there against sub standard opposition, what exactly was that achieving? According to you he should have used all fresh faces there and no experience at all, if those players you wanted to experiment with had played well does that translate to World Cup opposition? You have got to be kidding. It doesn't work that way, ask Sir Alec Ferguson about experience and the reason for his success. Please, you have absolutely no idea. Maybe Osieck got the substitutions wrong-according to you or some of the starters. Look at the players he has used, and there you are saying he hasn't attempted to give players opportunities and regenerate(this term never used by FFA). The lists of players he has used contradicts what you are saying, it's just that he didn't use the players YOU wanted him to use, and that's why you're not a coaches bootlace. Furthermore, we just don't have the talent, you can toss up anyone you want to the quality isn't there, if you think it is you're very deluded. All teams need change but the talent wasn't there, this is something you have failed to grasp. You are not a realist, you are playing matches on your computer and you can foresee who and who should not be used. Back to the reality of it again. He had 8 games to qualify, and he qualified us.(Remember, that's what the FFA told him to do) He used Schwarzer up to now because Schwarzer was the best goalkeeper, are you suggesting he should have just cut Schwarzer in 2010?, please you have no idea. You just can't go and make wholesale changes of the scope & magnitude you are talking about, it is absolutely farcical to suggest so. You can't see that the FFA are responsible for all of this and are using Osieck as a convenient scapegoat, it's not sinking in is it. Furthermore, another manager would not have done any better with what he had available and with the clear directive of the FFA to qualify us, and as a matter of fact Hiddink had far better quality players available for both Turkey and Russia and failed on both counts. Please do not provide excuses for him as his legacy in Australia is a big fat nothing. As Cahill, Bresciano, Neill, will no longer be there any more after this WC lets just drop them now, what do you think, that's the right way to go isn't it? They should have been cut in 2010, this is what you are asserting, but the FFA told Osieck to qualify, do you understand the contradiction here? I don't think you do. So who would you have used since 2010 to get to Brazil, please tell me and I'll have a good laugh. He fulfilled his objective of getting to the World Cup indeed, and if he had done what you're trying to assert he should have done, then NO, we would not be there for sure and he would have been sacked long ago for using poor players, again convenient sacking. Who played against Brazil & France? Any youngsters, any players from our great juniors who are in EPL. La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga? We have so many to choose from don't we. You make so many ridiculous comparisons, you talk about South Korea losing to Brazil ,was that played in Brazil? Please, you're talking absolute garbage. Let Brazil fly here and see what the result might be, I can assure you the jet lag would at least take something off the total to start with and playing in a less hostile environment is far different, and playing in front of your family and friends, home crowd support, yet you want to compare us to playing Brazil in Brazil, to Brazil playing Sth Korea in Sth Korea and Brazil playing Zambia in Beijing, these are farcical comparisons and aptly demonstrates you have no clue. Furthermore, when they played Australia they had 3 weeks of no matches at international level, and then for South Korea and Zambia it was 2 matches in 3 days, great comparisons indeed. They would not have been a bit flat when they played 2 matches in 3 days, no not at all. You're ignorance is very clear and I doubt you have played the game at any decent level, for you want to go and throw out all the experience. You are ridiculing a manager who qualified us for a world cup which is what he was instructed to do, many other managers have failed, and you are talking absolute garbage that it will be Holger Osieck's fault if we do not qualify in future because he didn't regenerate the squad. The FFA didn't have the balls to tell him to regenerate the squad, and you obviously don't understand about the corporate sponsorships and all the rest of it. Furthermore, the games against Brasil and France were FRIENDLIES, yes minutely important because Osieck was testing players out against the best, but in the bigger picture & context not so important. . It's obvious though that you don't have a clue. I have to be blunt about this now as you have irked me with the absolute nonsense you have asserted. David Gallop running the FFA very great appointment indeed. When the FFA get their house in order and we start achieving some good junior outcomes and development and pathways to the senior team & have the right people running our juniors, only then can we start to have some limited optimism about the future, because then there will be pressure for positions in the team, at this time are you really saying that there are players that can push the likes of Bresciano or Cahill out. If so, Bresciano and Cahill shouldn't be there now, they should have been long gone, you can't see what is being said here you are missing the whole point. I've told you ten times we haven't achieved anything at junior level u-17 & u-20 since Les Scheinflug was in charge and we got rid of him. You probably don't even know who he is if you fell over him, but you have not addressed this at all, that shows your complete ignorance as to what is going in football in this country. Lastly, what I will say is this, I will accept the word of Stan Lazaridis, Scott Chipperfield, Rale Rasic, Tim Cahill, Aurelio Vidmar and Franz Beckenbauer, Les Scheinflug, Raul Blanco over the words of Robbie Slater, Craig Foster and you, and any other person that wants to scapegoat Osieck. Why? Cahill played under Osieck, and Vidmar assisted him so they know the job that he has done, if you want to contradict Cahill or Vidmar, then go ahead, but that will aptly demonstrate that you've clearly got no clue(and you haven't) as they have first hand experience of what happened in regards to the dressing room, what happened in regards to tactics, and what happened in regards to people who were given opportunities who did not perform as required at international level, and you do not, yet you want to ridicule him and these are things that clearly you cannot see. Your measure of Osieck is completely unfair, and again you would have qualified us for Brazil without a loss, 30 goals for and 2 against, and you would have dumped all the experience out of the squad despite being told to "qualify" and used "Rogic in midfield and Jedinak as a centre back" and Oar in left midfield and Kruse as striker, all of them are ordinary. Yes for sure we would be at Brazil in 2014, in your dreams and on your computer game where you played these players and "regenerated the squad" in contradiction to doing what you were told by FFA. You and Fadida and "everyone else" is "right", and Cahill, Beckenbauer, Chipperfield, Lazaridis, Rasic, Scheinflug, Blanco are wrong. Yes indeed, you can believe what you and your other forum supporters are saying but that is not supported by professional people, coaches and players alike. I'll take the opinion of one of the greatest coaches of Australia ever in Rasic over you and any other "expert" on this forum. I have had enough of playstation warriors. The FFA are being run by people who are not from football, therefore you are trusting in people that have no idea about the game or organising our future. If the FFA had the best interests of the game at heart here they would get rid of the absolute failures of our junior coaching teams and structures, install Zico or a good German coach, and put them in place for 6-10 years to overhaul the whole of the way we are headed, which as it currently stands is nowhere, but they don't. There is no vision. You have no clue, back to your playstation to "regenerate the squad and win the group at Brazil 2014" Rale Rasic supported exactly what I said about the problem lying with the FFA and our junior system being deficient and the Dutch experiment a failure.. Rasic blasted the game's keepers Football Federation Australia declaring that Osieck was not to blame for consecutive 6-0 friendly game losses to Brazil (September) and France in Paris yesterday. ''But with respect if Tommy Oar or Robbie Kruse are our best weapons something is wrong with the Socceroos and that's not having a go at Tommy Oar or Kruse. ''It's the system, look for the past eight years the system has failed miserably. ''Eight years of the so called Dutch formula and we're still talking about grassroots and promises. ''Losing the game in Vietnam 5-1 and not scoring a goal for the Olympic qualifiers that deserves the revolution not Holger Osieck.'' BRAZILIAN legend Zico has been touted as an ideal replacement for sacked Socceroos coach Holger Osieck. But 1974 Socceroos FIFA World Cup coach Rale Rasic said not even Zico would be able to perform miracles at the World Cup in Brazil or even the 2015 Asian Cup on home soil. Rasic - the first coach to lead Australia to a World Cup - earned credibility when the part-time Australians lost to eventual World Cup champion West Germany (3-0), East Germany (2-0) and a scoreless draw with Chile in Germany in 1974. Rasic blasted the game's keepers Football Federation Australia declaring that Osieck was not to blame for consecutive 6-0 friendly game losses to Brazil (September) and France in Paris yesterday. ''Firstly whoever organised the matches against Brazil and then France should be answerable for everything that happened,'' Rasic said. ''I was in Brazil when they wiped Spain 3-0 in the final of the Confederations Cup this year and to face them at home is just madness. ''Secondly prior to the World Cup in 2010 Pim Verbeek was on the verge of being sacked and so are we in a multi-million-dollar industry where we can afford to sack coaches? But why don't we think before we appoint them? ''Player power nearly got rid of Pim before the World Cup. ''And then we have old and ordinary players. They say when you get old you should be wise but ordinary players cannot be wise. ''But who are the people who select the coaches? I believe we have players that have too much say.'' Rasic said Zico could be a superb Socceroos candidate but he would need to be given every right to call the biggest shots which could level some of the old Socceroos guard. Zico did not respond to emails from The Advertiser yesterday after Brazilian sources declared he may consider a Socceroos job offer. Zico is currently coaching Socceroos midfielder Mark Bresciano's Qatari club Al-Gharafa. Zico, a former Japan boss, lead the Blue Samurai to the 2006 FIFA World Cup which included a 3-1 loss to the Socceroos in Germany two years after claiming the Asian Cup with the Japanese. Given Australia has qualified for Brazil appointing Zico to lead the Socceroos on his home soil may loom to be a winning situation despite the sorry state of the national team. Zico, however, may not even get a look in given favoured Socceroos candidate Guus Hiddink is again in line for a return to the national team. Frenchman Gerard Houllier is also a candidate. Nonetheless Rasic also believes Australian football has been battered by what he described as a dysfunctional development pathways system. And any hope of a quick international fix is out of the question Rasic added. ''Our under 20s were last week beaten by Vietnam 5-1 and we couldn't score a goal in the Olympic Games qualifiers (London 2012),'' Rasic said. ''But with respect if Tommy Oar or Robbie Kruse are our best weapons something is wrong with the Socceroos and that's not having a go at Tommy Oar or Kruse. ''It's the system, look for the past eight years the system has failed miserably. ''Eight years of the so called Dutch formula and we're still talking about grassroots and promises. ''Losing the game in Vietnam 5-1 and not scoring a goal for the Olympic qualifiers that deserves the revolution not Holger Osieck.'' It's understood Central Coast boss Graham Arnold and Hiddink have remained close friends after the Dutchman had the Mariners boss as his No. 2 at the 2006 World Cup. Arnold yesterday also signalled his intent to again lead the Socceroos for the second time after he took charge of the side at the 2007 Asian Cup. And it's believed an FFA official is potentially consulting Houllier for either the Socceroos job or a recommendation on the position.
Jukes
Guest
I know what your saying but to a certain degree I don't agree with you. There has been lots of discussion about "that we don't have the players coming through". What a load of hogwash. There might not be world class players coming through but neither are the likes of Lucas Neill, David Carney, Luke Wilshire, Mile Jedinak, Matt McKay. In fact I would say we have had two World Class players that I can remember, one was Harry Kewell who was very susceptible to injury and the other was Mark Viduka who gracefully retired before the 2010 WC. I can mention four other players who have also been close to world class and they are Mark Schwarzer, Tim Cahill, Paul Okon and Ned Zelic. Right now the players who I have mentioned in the current squad are all replaceable, we have players right now who are all better than the players I mentioned in the current socceroo set up. So all is not lost, in fact, I would say it is imperative that these players get much needed game time because they will only get better, particularly as a team, while the likes of Neill, Carney, Wilkshire, McKay are only getting worse. I can spare someone like Jedinak and leave him on the bench or trial him as a centreback, because right now, even though he plays in the EPL, he is not of EPL quality. Now you might say, well, we need to build for the Asian Cup and I can see your logic here, but, all of our national teams should be geared for one thing and one thing only........to have a squad that will peak for a World Cup.
Football_Wunderkind
Roar Pro
Just replying to your message Qantas so that I am near the top and visible. "Sir Alex Ferguson, for example, has never coached a national side." ... is the statement made by the author of this article. Mr Ian Brenner please get your facts right. It can instantly destroy your argument if you state the completely incorrect. Not only did Alex Ferguson coach the Scotland National Team. He did so against the Socceroos and successfully knocked us out of the 1986 WC qualifying race.
Carlos
Guest
If the Socceroos let in only 1and not 4 goals vs Germany they would have made it to the second round Pim made a huge tactical blunder - which decided his legacy. Germany lost to Serbia in their next game who were beaten by the Roos The margins are so fine between success and failure at that level.
Carlos
Guest
I agree that Japan had it tough arriving so soon after playing Aus for their first game. I too was disappointed at the results as they were a tad unlucky There is a strong feeling in Italy that Zaccheroni is not up to it. It is not surprising that expectations are high. There is also a view that the blue sumurai lack mental toughness to go with their silky skills. Australia seems to have the mental edge over them despite being technically inferior, much like USA has over Mexico. On paper Japan should wallop the Socceroos but they never do.
Robert Merkel
Guest
One thing that Australian sports fans - particularly in those "other" codes football partisans like to scoff at - have developed over the past few years is patience. They've accepted that their club team isn't going to contend for a premiership every year; they're prepared to accept that a team might trade near-term moderate success for a longer-term shot at the prize. Australia looks, at this point, like it will require a great deal of luck to make it past the group stages of the next World Cup, regardless of the coach. That is frustrating, particularly given that World Cups only come around once every four years, but it is the way it is. But we have an Asian Cup coming up on home soil, a prestigious tournament, and one that on our footballing history, if not our current stocks, we have have reasonable prospects of winning. We can't trade Socceroos players for draft picks. But we can pick players who will be around for the Asian Cup and give them a chance to practice playing together on the big stage. This might harm our chances of making out of the group stages of the World Cup, but is a team loaded with the superannuated Golden Generation really much more of a shot to do so? And, similarly, is it really worth spending a huge amount of money on a coach to maximise our World Cup performance, when a maximised World Cup performance is still likely to involve a shellacking from a world power, if we're lucky, a draw eked out against an African or Asian team, and an exit at the end of the group stage? If I were Frank Lowy, I'd save the cash and aim to build for longer-term success.
Ian
Roar Pro
Fozzie's post today is a good read as always http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/craig-foster/blog/1170443/Old-brigade-is-not-to-blame
fadida
Guest
goodnight Holger/Atti?Cornflakes :)
Jukes
Guest
Goodnight Holger
fadida
Guest
Me too. I'm sure his back catalogue will be good for a laugh. Thwaite > Maldini Cornflakes > Baresi
Jukes
Guest
@ Fadida, He can do whatever he wants. I have been pretty consistent all the way through :P
fadida
Guest
I think we're being stalked Jukes. Qantas is going back through old posts methinks. A desperate act :D I should check his, particularly the one where he said Milligan isn't up to scratch, but now claims he's a key! Maybe I'll find something else than "Holger got us through a tough group.No other coach could have done that with the group of players he had"