Much of Sir Alex Ferguson’s autobiography will have led to wailing and a gnashing of teeth – which is, of course, the whole point. Why would you buy it if it was all nice and fuzzy?
What will have people on the Kings Road and at the Kop particularly agitated, however, is the assertion that Frank Lampard is “not an elite international player” and Steven Gerrard is “not a top top player”.
This despite Ferguson expressing remorse at not signing either previously.
So is he right or is he just selling books?
Firstly, for the purposes of this debate let me say I’m a Chelsea supporter and a huge Frank Lampard fan. Lampard is a Chelsea legend, many would argue their greatest ever player.
But does that make him truly world class?
In a debate about Chelsea’s greatest ever player for instance, a recent name that would pop up is Dennis Wise. A great servant and fan favourite, yes, but hardly world class.
Wise of course played at a time when Chelsea moved from mid table to a top six team, whereas Lampard has won leagues and European titles with Chelsea.
Being a fan favourite or even being voted your club’s greatest ever player doesn’t necessarily put you in the category of being world class either. We can take Ferguson’s own Manchester United as an example.
Ryan Giggs was recently voted their greatest ever player, while Eric Cantona has won many polls also.
Was Giggs as talented as Ronaldo or George Best? Was he as influential as Roy Keane or Bryan Robson, did he score as many goals as Bobby Charlton? Yes, he has won lots of medals, but so has Gary Neville and he doesn’t figure in the debate too widely.
For those who put Cantona at the top, was he remotely as good as Dennis Bergkamp? Did he ever do it in Europe on in a World Cup?
What he did have were a couple of mercurial domestic seasons. He was also a swaggering maverick who stuck two fingers up to everyone, he was a cult (that’s an ‘l’) footballer who the fans adored, but again, that doesn’t make you world class.
While this reasoning may seem to have little so far to do with the debate about Gerrard and Lampard, the point is to aim to remove the emotion from the debate and look at the players on their merits.
We’ll start with Lampard, who has been an incredible servant to Chelsea.
He is possibly the most consistent Premiership player of his generation, scoring bags of goals every season. He has a good range of passing, has missed few matches through injury and is rarely guilty of having a bad game.
On the flip side, his play has been described as one-dimensional (not by me, I would add). He lacks pace, has not always excelled at international level and many of his goals are scuffed or are deflections.
He also takes the penalties and a few people used to call him fat. I wish I was that fat, I can tell you.
Gerrard has likewise served Liverpool incredibly in a period which – one Champions League win aside– has been a pretty miserable one for the Reds.
He has scored plenty of goals, has had some incredible inspirational performances in big matches and finals, has been loyal, and is an incredibly dynamic presence within the team, as well as being a natural leader.
Against this probably counts being injury prone, being inconsistent for his country until recently, and a lack of being able to do anything on the pitch at any speed other than one hundred miles an hour.
Both will go down as legends, and quite rightly so – their achievements are immense. The question is, would you call them ‘world class’?
Lampard has been more consistent than Gerrard and has won far more. Few would argue, however, against Gerrard at his peak being superior to Lampard.
The extra pace and dynamism alone that he had made that difference.
Both at their peaks, however, would suffer by comparison to say Zinedine Zidane or even (and I hate to say it) Roy Keane at the peak of their own powers.
Both those players were respectively the very best at what they did.
Does either player have the ability and skill that say Edgar Davids or a Clarence Seedorf did? Again probably not.
Many would argue that Paul Scholes was vastly superior to either, although that’s a debate I personally think is a far closer one.
I was thinking of a greatest Chelsea eleven as an example. If you played 4-2-3-1 as is currently in vogue, and you had Lampard as part of the ‘2’, could you honestly say he was better than either Makelele or Ballack?
At their respective peaks both were incredible players and gave wonderful balance to a team.
If by definition of being elite or world class you give weight to consistency, then both players deserve to be counted so. If it’s about pure ability, then the argument becomes tougher.
Ryan Giggs for instance has achieved everything there is to achieve, yet Marc Overmars at his peak was a far better player and Giggs never got close ever to having an entire season like Gareth Bale had last year.
Would either as of now be remembered favourably to Giggs? Bale, of course, has time on his side.
As mentioned earlier, Michael Ballack had more ability than Lampard, possibly by a distance, but who would Chelsea fans vote for? Lampard of course, as I probably would as well.
I would agree with Ferguson about Graeme Souness being better than Gerrard, because Gerrard cannot dictate the pace and rhythm of a game in the way that Souness could. Many (or even most) Liverpool fans would disagree.
If the debate is whether they were as brilliant at the peak of their games as the Zidanes and Keanes, then the answer is probably no.
If that means that they are not world class, then I’m sure Chelsea and Liverpool fans will settle for not having world-class players.
Tom
Guest
You mention Zidane whom recently said that Gerrard and Scholes were the best two midfielders in the last 20 years. I agree and they were and still are, in the case of Gerrard, world class. Lampard though isn't world class in my opinion.
Aidan
Guest
Fergie was a great manager, no one's denying that, and he was immense for United, but, above all, he is a united fan, he raised all their young players, and managed the club forever, so this is expected. However, because of this, I take what he says with "a grain of salt", I see most of these comments, while they may have a certain degree of truth, as just being his final attempt to undermine other clubs and their great players, and promote his own players. Lamps and Stevie G are both one club men (I know lamps started at WHU), and everyone knows they could have gone to many prominent European clubs when they were at their peak (I know this for sure about Gerrard, as I am a lfc fan, not to sure about lamps, but I would assume), but they are both loyal to their clubs, and have been incredible for their clubs. So to say Makelele was a better player is weird, he has done more, cause he has been at more clubs, but soccer is a team sport, and lampard has been a more important player to chelsea than makelele or ballack has ever been. And Gerrard has "been" LFC for the last 10 years.
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
Cheers for reading the article Sean. It's very subjective as you say. I think all the points you make about Gerrard are spot on. I think my issue with him is my own perception that he can't dictate the pace of the game like Zidane could. Zidane is very effusive with his praise of many other players also so he's maybe just a nice bloke! I think you're right that Gerrard was slightly better than Lampard for the reasons you state but for me Keane was better than either. He was a different type of player but for me he was the driving force behind Utd's success for the bigger part. I don't particularly like the guy but he was a genius in his own way and his influence on a game was unparalleled in that he could obtain great performances out of his colleagues also. Ferguson has commented that he intimidated people and whilst he surely did, he also inspired them first and foremost. Greatest ever Irish player? I'd have him just ahead of Liam Brady and Paul McGrath.
Sean O Donoghue
Roar Rookie
Good article in my opinion, although I must disagree with you.I think that both Lampard and Gerrard are world class players. The great Zinedine Zidane has come out and defended Gerrard, claiming that at his peak he was the greatest midfielder in the world. This is a bit generous in my eyes s the likes of Xavi and Pirlo were firing on all cylinders at this time, but he may have a point. Steven Gerrard doesn't really have any weaknesses. He can score ridiculous goals, his passing is still unparralled in the Premier League and he has a great defensive game too. The likes of Xavi and Pirlo, Scholes and Seedorf arent as complete as he is as a midfielder. In way,hes the ultimate midfielder,and in my view, the best of the Premier League era. Theres a common consensus that, while brilliant, Lampard was just never quite as good, and I think that only a Chelsea fan would argue otherwise. His goalscoring is oustanding, better than Gerrard's although he has played with better players, but his defensive qualities don't even compare with Gerrard and his passing probably isn't quite as good either. Still, he has been a fantastic player, and in my opinion, a world class player. Oh, and I notice that Roy Keane has been getting a bit ofa bashing here in the comments. Well Im from Dublin and it is widely accepted in Ireland that he was far and away our best ever player. Im not sure he was as good as Gerrard or Lampard, but he was fantastic. That much is indeniable
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
Le Tissier missed one penalty only in his career. I heard him talking about it on the radio just last week. (I'm such an anorak) Yeboah had that great volley against Liverpool to win the game early in the season and then he followed it up with a cracking juggle and shot against Wimbledon at Selhurst Park. There were a few others too you right. I think after that, Yeboah's backside just got so unfeasibly large that he was rendered unable to run around anymore. He was one hell of a unit, wouldn't have wanted to piss him off..........
JimmyB
Guest
If he was watching great goals from that era from the premier League, I would imagine that he saw a fair amount of Tony Yeboah too, I seem to recall him having 3-4 entries in the goal of the season one year.
JimmyB
Guest
He also never missed a penalty, I think. I think it's fair to say that if he was playing now, he would most certainly be playing for England.
JimmyB
Guest
Let me also apologise for using the phrase "bumping uglys" ;)
SVB
Guest
Yeah. I love how Xavi said when Le Tissier was dribbling around 3 or 4 players it seemed like he was doing it at walking pace. Probably why he didn't need to be so fit. But the best players always seem to have time and make the hard things look so easy. I remember watching a highlights reel of his goals a few years ago. I was smiling the whole way through as he doesn't just score great goals, but he makes defenders and goal keepers look extremely clumsy :)
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
Oh mate, Le Tissier........... Bloke was a GOD, loved him. I think he's possibly the most talented England player ever even taking Gazza into account, but could you imagine if he'd ever got himself properly fit? I think that's they he possibly never got the England recognition, that and his loyalty to Southampton and not testing himself at one of the bigger clubs. No less than Xavi Hernandez counts him as his hero when he was growing up, I'll put the link at the bottom. One of mates in Dubai has got to know him and plays golf a bit with him, says he's a cracking bloke too. http://www.goal.com/en/news/1863/world-cup-2010/2010/06/05/1960478/world-cup-2010-xavi-hails-his-english-hero-matt-le-tissier
SVB
Guest
Steve One of the most talented English players for me was Matthew Le Tissier. I was a Man Utd supporter during the 90's, but Southampton was my second team simply because of him. Some of the goals he scored and skills he showed on the pitch were breath taking and sublime. I loved how he was a one team man also, and countless times saved Southampton from relegation. A guy with amazing vision who did not get the recognition he truly deserved ( including not being picked in the English team). If he played at a bigger club he would have been recognised a lot more. Also some talented Man Utd players for me who had a huge role in their success in the 90's- Mark Hughes, Ryan Giggs, Eric Cantona, Lee Sharpe, Andre Kanchelskis and Ole Gunner Soljskaer (hope I spelt it right).
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
Sorry Trent, I completely left his name out for some moronic reason. I used to go to quite a few of the 'new firm' games at Pittodrie, watching McLean and Ferguson on the touchline at the same time was better than the football itself! You're spot on by the way, it was the absolute best time in Scottish football. 4 different clubs won the league in the '80s, so much better than what is currently a one horse race until Rangers come back up and, a European Cup Winners Cup winner, another semi final in the same tournament the following year, a European Super Cup, a UEFA Cup final and a European Cup semi final. Dundee United are unbeaten in 4 competitive matches against Barcelona, not many can say that!
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
Walt I think that's a great point you make about would the English players benefit from playing abroad early in their careers and I think they certainly would. There was a debate on the radio this week about this current crop of Belgian players and how the majority all seem to be benefiting from playing in England. The one thing I would debate with you though is whilst I whole heartedly agree with you about Gerrard and how his athletic abilities stopped him learning how to pace a game. I think the irony is I've seen him look better than I have seen him in a long time now his legs are going a bit, he's played very well for England in the last couple of games and it may be that he finally learns to read the game a bit. Will be interesting to see how it pans out. Cheers for taking the time to read the piece mate.
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
I think in fairness to John, we were discussing 'world class' and I do think Shearer around '96 was exactly that before the 2nd big injury at Newcastle did for him. Not in the same league as Messi but then again no one apart from Maradona and Pele probably is, anyhow another debate. I also mentioned ZIdane and Keane in the same breath but again for different reasons, I just felt they were both world class at what they did respectively, no question who you'd rather watch agreed. A central midfield pairing of those two would have taken some stopping anyhow! John's also makes a good point about whether the length of time you do something over should be taken into consideration using my comparison between Overmars and Giggs as an example. I'm not sure I really know the answer.........
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
Yeah it's a good point about that CL final performance. I remember the goal he scored against West Ham in the FA Cup final too - not the same level but a final nevertheless. He definitely seems to be a big game player for sure. I think with Keane's medal as I recall, he was entitled to one as it's a 'league' now and therefore if you're in the squad and have played you're eligible but I think he refused is as he didn't play the final. I think Scholes accepted his but for the same reason said he felt it didn't really count. Can't quite remember though. John Terry certainly didn't mind, he changed in to his kit in Munich, shin pads the works!!!!!
WaltSaffa
Guest
Steven I don't know much about football, so far be it for me to disagree with you or SAF! It's a funny exercise, trying to strip away the emotion, when the most engaging thing about sport is the way it can involve your emotions whilst still allowing you to analyze aspects. I've followed the debates around skills in the English game, and I wonder how many good English players - Lampard and Gerrard especially - would have been as players if they had spent some of their formative tears playing for continental teams. .They are good enough as players to have developed the skills to succeed there, skills they never really needed in the English game. Gerrard has been doubly disadvantaged, playing for a less than great team during his best years. Ironically, his great athletic abilities may also have mitigated against him learning to play at a different pace. Sadly now, as his pace and endurance decline, he is incapable of playing his natural game, and he doesn't have a Plan B.
Punter
Guest
Wow John, comparing Shearer to Messi,amazing, OK, here is where it starts & ends, Shearer 60 games, 30 goals for England, Messi 87 games, 37 goals. Shearer was a great striker for Blackburn, Newcastle & England, Messi was/is a great player, who also happens to be a great striker. massive difference. I know who I rather watch or be in my team.
nickoldschool
Roar Guru
:)
JimmyB
Guest
Yeah, apologies mate, the funny thing is that he's not embarrassed by it, not even in the slightest. Keane was amazing that night (great era for the champions league, with Man Utd, Juve, D.Kiev etc) However remember Gerrard against AC Milan, it was a comparable performance but in a final. Keane, Gerrard and Lampard all have a Champions League medal, but Keane didn't play the final.
Steven McBain
Roar Guru
John I couldn't disagree with pretty much anything you said. Alan Shearer circa Euro '96 was a hell of a player and as for Paolo Maldini, greatest defender of all time? Only Beckenbauer and Baresi can rival him for me. The length of time he excelled over also was just absurd. I'm trying to recall when Bergkamp's flying gig became a real issue. He played the '94 and '98 WCs and the Euros of '96 and '00. I can't remember what happen in Korea/Japan in '02 but I presume he didn't play or is my memory playing tricks and the Dutch didn't qualify?? I honestly can't remember sorry. Big WC coming for Messi in my opinion, this is his chance for immortality................ Reckon he can do it??