Breaking down England's tight five

By Ben.S / Roar Guru

The New Zealand rout aside, England were worryingly ordinary during the 2012 November internationals.

It was a very young and inexperienced side, and the victories of Australia and South Africa were aided by moments of fortune, but all were games that an England side with serious ambitions should have won.

Adding to the rueful feeling is the fact that the captaincy debate was not resolved (expedited by some poor decisions from Chris Robshaw) and a subsequent 2013 Six Nations tournament that was equally ordinary.

England won four consecutive matches but were demolished by a Wales side that had been, to that point, equally if not more underwhelming.

One could point out that these sorts of results always occur in the Six Nations, which is what makes it such a romantic and engaging tournament. But that’s a view that holds no water when you’re on the end of a 30-3 scoreline.

The summer tour to Argentina revealed a far more attacking approach (much as the Fiji game had in 2012 and the Scotland game had in 2013).

This must be tempered by the quality of the opposition – they were facing an Argentine team shorn of the majority of its stars (although it did contain Contepomi, Landajo, Cabello, Galarza, Leonardi).

Consequently a side freed from the constraints of overtly tough opposition, senior players dominating the jersey and a fair amount of time in camp allowed for some very good rugby. They showed a great set-piece, got quick ball and were able to be adventurous in attack.

In an ideal world this would be paired with the conservative rugby that Lancaster had previously overseen, because Test rugby is generally an inch-by-inch grind and you need a varied game plan.

Prior to Argentina Lancaster had persisted with a fullback on the wing, a man lauded for his defensive ability (and little else) in the 12 jersey and a predominantly kicking fly-half.

This was a backline selected to play territorial rugby.

He then picked a comparatively lightweight pack. The two simply didn’t gel and thus the composition of the tight five becomes a seriously pressing issue. If the pack isn’t balanced it doesn’t matter who plays 10 or 12.

At loosehead Alex Corbisiero selects himself. He’s arguably the best loosehead scrummaging prop in Test rugby and his work in the loose has improved immeasurably since his debut season where he found himself overwhelmed by lightweights like Al Kellock.

If his recurring knee injuries can be managed then England automatically start the game with the knowledge that scrum penalties will come. If Corbisiero isn’t fit then the scrum becomes a lottery.

Mako Vunipola is one of the best ball carrying props in the world and he has a tremendous defensive work rate, but it’s fair to say that his scrummaging is inconsistent.

It certainly isn’t as bad as various pundits suggest it is (remember how poor Cian Healy used to be in comparison), but it isn’t what defines his game.

For some props scrummaging is their raison d’etre, but Vunipola is more of a footballer. He wants the ball in his hands, not a five metre scrum on his own try line.

I don’t think this would be much of an issue were he selected alongside a scrummaging hooker and tighthead and a bonafide tighthead lock, but Lancaster and the Lions didn’t do that.

Set-piece criticisms aside he is a very, very good player and only 22 years old. The pack could potentially be built around him.

I would like to see him used as an impact substitute, but the only way his progress could be accelerated is by starting games, which might come to fruition in the absence of Corbisiero.

Another point worth considering is that the new scrummaging laws favour looseheads and stop the tighthead from immediately pushing the looshead down.

Joe Marler is the final option at loosehead, and if Corbisiero misses the November matches he may leapfrog Vunipola to start.

Marler is a dominant player at club level (and only 23), but he has struggled with the leap to Test football. His scrummaging is also erratic, like Vunipola, and he suffered a painful lesson against Adam Jones in March.

It’s clear that he still has scrummaging problems (exacerbated by the loss of giant lock Ollie Kohn) and problems controlling his temperament.

His behaviour against Northampton Saints in September was typically wearisome.

With this in mind and given that Marler has also failed to impose his ball carrying game for England I can’t see why he keeps getting selected beyond reasons of continuity. As things stand he is a worse option than the other looseheads out there.

The hooker position is possibly the tightest selection in the entire squad. Tom Youngs proved himself on the Lions tour, but Dylan Hartley is the bigger man, a better scrummager and a better lineout technician. Both players are strong in the loose, but selection boils down to what style of play Lancaster seeks.

Youngs carries low, and because he is a smaller man his leg drive tends to take him through tackles and straight down, which means he rarely turns the ball over and there is a quick recycle – which is ideal playing down the middle of the field.

However, for a former centre Youngs doesn’t tend to look for an offload or a pass before a tackle; he seeks contact.

Conversely, Hartley has a very good offloading game. He carries upright, uses a forearm fend and backs into a defender to look for the pass or begin a maul.

For a former prop he is very comfortable with the ball in hand, and over the past two seasons has displayed a real appetite to impose himself in the loose. He’s a good tight forward, but he’s also more comfortable out wide than Youngs is.

Both players are good defenders, with Youngs being more dominant. Some of his tackles during the Lions tour were immense.

Hartley is quite a cynical player, and reminds me of Lawrence Dallaglio in the way he takes that extra second to roll away from a tackle.

He also reminds me of Dallaglio in the way he constantly barracks the referee. He is a leader and very vocal, whereas Youngs is the archetypal silent English yeoman.

Dan Cole has been the incumbent tighthead since 2009/10. He’s a renowned scrummager, has improved his ball carrying and is superb over the ball for a prop, but over the past two seasons he hasn’t quite been at his best.

It has been suggested he struggles to scrummage with the much shorter Tom Youngs, and in a lot of games it was noticeable that he was packing too high.

One interesting observation from the Wales debacle, however, came from Jeff Probyn, who suggested that Cole had Gethin Jenkins under control and that it was simply a case of Adam Jones monstering Joe Marler.

What has also been an issue is Lancaster’s insistence on picking a physically callow locking partnership. Joe Launchbury and Courtney Lawes are very good players, but scrummaging locks they are not.

They also don’t hit a huge amounts of rucks between them, so the front row have had an increased workload. Tom Woods and Chris Robshaw are very good in this respect but it’s not the same as having a 19 stone lock hitting ruck after ruck.

Martin Johnson noticed this after the South Africa Test in 2010 and thereafter selected Louis Deacon in the four jersey.

Also, the new scrum laws mean that scrums are taking longer which means a locking pair carrying more weight is beneficial for the props.

Dan Cole has been dominant for Leicester this season – easily dispatching Tom Court in the Ulster match, but I’d prefer to see David Wilson start this Spring.

Having long been labelled the next big thing, his career stuttered as Cole overtook him. Wilson is a strong scrummager, and a good ball carrier, but he had a bad habit of thinking he could barge through the defence on his own.

As a consequence he tended to turn over ball.

He’s also very aggressive and sometimes lets his temper boil over, but not to the extent that Marler does.

Bath currently have a very good scrum and an excellent mauling game – something England have struggled with for years now, and I think he could replicate his club partnership with Dave Attwood at international level.

Lancaster has preferred looser and lighter locks in the number four jersey like Mouritz Botha, Courtney Lawes and Joe Launchbury.

They’ve been paired with equally slimline five locks like Tom Palmer and Geoff Parling. This has affected the balance of the scrum and also the potency of the side at the breakdown.

It’s impressive seeing Joe Launchbury in full flight, but he is not, and neither is Courtney Lawes, going to hit 40 rucks a game.

When you combine that with a 12 in Barritt that struggles to get over the gainline and has absolutely no width of passing the back row and halves are already playing catchup.

Dave Attwood has the potential to be the enforcer that England have lacked. He’s big, aggressive and hits rucks.

It sounds simple, but at the highest end of the sport the side who do the simplest things accurately tend to win. Attwood is a competent lineout operator (much improved) and is bulkier than Launchbury – it doesn’t matter how many rucks you hit if you don’t have the size and power to actually make any impression.

His carrying game doesn’t compare to Launchbury, and he doesn’t have the most spectacular hands, but I genuinely think Attwood is a necessity, and the player that the pack has been missing since Simon Shaw started to drop off the pace. He should add to the scrum too.

Launchbury had a stunning series last November, but struggled as his first Test season wore on.

He found some form on the Argentina tour when paired with Attwood, although it could be argued that he would have benefited from a proper break in the off-season.

Launchbury plays at four but he’s more of a four/five hybrid. He probably isn’t physical enough at this stage of his career to play four in the traditional manner, and isn’t a good enough lineout operator to shift to five.

Were Tom Croft fit he could play five like he did in Argentina (against a very weak Argentine lineout), but with Croft injured and Parling having played so well on the Lions tour it leaves Lancaster with a big dilemma.

If Corbisiero is fit then England could get away with playing a lighter lock pairing, but if he’s not then England will struggle in the scrum, as they did against a mediocre Australian pack last season.

The problem is that Launchbury is a fantastic footballer, so can Lancaster really afford to leave him out?

Like Dean Richards before him he is generally in the right place at the right time, and I can only recall him making two handling errors in all the games I’ve seen him play.

Unlike Richards he is a great athlete and has excellent hands. His running lines are clever, he is an outstanding support player, and is very dangerous when competing for restarts.

In that sense there’s also an element of the blindside flanker about him. At his best I think the only other lock in world rugby who can offer such an all-round game is Sam Whitelock, so England really should find a place for him.

It’s more a question of where.

We’ve seen with Courtney Lawes that being an athletic lock doesn’t automatically translate to being a competent tight flanker, which is presumably why Wasps have persevered with him playing four

The debate of Attwood v Launchbury suggests that the four jersey is a two horse race – it isn’t. Courtney Lawes has had a blistering start to the season.

His work in the air has improved and his defence is still bone-jarring.

His carrying game is hit and miss, but he has good hands and an eye to keeping the ball alive.

In the negative column he is yet another four/five lock, with the underrated Christian Day at Northampton Saints doing a lot of the water carrying on his behalf. I’d also suggest that Lawes’ lack of bulk affects his scrummaging.

It being a squad game Lawes and Launchbury would offer far more impact off the bench than Attwood would, but selection might also come down to a horses for courses approach and the style of the opposition.

At five Geoff Parling is the automatic selection. He runs the lineout, has an excellent work rate, and is increasingly being spoken of as captaincy material.

He also has a surprisingly good carrying game for such an unimpressive physical specimen; he runs good angles from deep and pumps his limbs high, nearly always getting over the gainline.

It’s indicative of his standing in the England squad that Lancaster hasn’t named a competing five lock to challenge him.

For the Australia game I’d start Corbisiero (otherwise Vunipola), Hartley, Wilson, Attwood and Parling, with Vunipola (or Marler), Tom Youngs, Cole and Launchbury playing off the bench.

I do think Lawes is a fine player, but he’s more of a defensive option, looking for that big Mickey Skinneresque hit, whereas Launchbury is more of an attacking player who keeps up the tempo.

I think the hooking position could go either way, but Northampton Saints have started the season very well, and Hartley has been at the forefront of that.

Alongside Wilson and potentially Vunipola that’s a front row with strong ball carrying ability and a high defensive work rate. Their impact around the pitch would, in my opinion, be unmatched by most other Test sides. I also think Hartley could help guide the young Vunipola.

It’s been suggested that Tom Youngs is a naive scrummager and in tandem with Vunipola and a light pair of locks the Lions failed to assert their scrum in the second Lions Test. I worry that Lancaster will continue to make that same mistake.

Attwood is a necessity. He does his core duties very well and could allow Parling and Launchbury to play a looser role. He doesn’t clog up the middle of the pitch like some fours have a habit of doing.

The last thing an England fan wants to see is a lock standing between the midfielders and getting turned over on the wing.

He provides balance to a pack that has, despite what the Southern Hemisphere media says, been comparatively light for a good few seasons now.

I’m open to the idea of Launchbury starting at five with Attwood’s aerial work having improved in recent seasons, but with Parling having had such a strong Lions tour and his experience and leadership value I think he deserves to start.

The Crowd Says:

2013-11-01T01:21:47+00:00

dc enzed

Guest


The ENG vs NZL clash will be Dan Carter's 100th test match. Expect the Poms to get smashed. You read it here first.

AUTHOR

2013-11-01T00:59:10+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


I've accidentally deleted my 10 minute response. Tomorrow. ;-0

2013-10-31T19:22:53+00:00

dwayne_board

Guest


Difficult to say exactly what Timani is right now... With nothing much to play for, maybe Deans wanted to see if he could manage 6 better than he can 4. He certainly does not have the instincts of a 4 and the gritty enjoyment of hard core duties - and of course he doesn't offer an option in the lineout. IMO the Wallabies will miss Simmons more than they think on Saturday - he has four important roles within the side that I cannot see anyone else filling. AWJ has changed a great deal in past year or eighteen months - people locally commented on the change in bodyshape and increase in mass. At Ospreys he's now listed at 123kgs or about 19st 4, which is a huge increase on when he first came into the Welsh set-up under Gareth Jenkins. Then he was about 105kgs or 16st 7 and could genuinely operate in either the back or second row. Maybe he was told Evans was going to be a fixture at 5 and concentrated on developing his bulk and static strength - his style of play has changed since 2009 in SA, and he's become a lot tighter and more active at the breakdown over the past couple of seasons. But Evans has indeed captained the lineout in every game he's played since the 2012 six nations. Horwill is interesting - since he returned from injury he hasn't demonstrated any of the dynamic power that made him such a formidable second row, and I'm beginning to wonder where his place in the side will be - looks like Link is having the same thoughts. Perhaps we'll know more after Saturday. Nathan Sharpe [and Dan Vickerman before him] left a gaping hole in Australia's second row that I can't see anyone filling in the immediate future: a lineout caller but also their most genuine tight forward and the best tackler in the Wallaby front five. Hard act to follow.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T17:30:32+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


You're right re: Timani, but problematically that was only a single game. Timani started the RC at 4, and played out the entire 2012 end of year Tests as a 4. With that in mind I think it's fair to say the decision to select him at 6 away in Argentina against the Argentine pack was tactical, and not because Timani plays like a loose 6. Scott Higginbotham is criticised as being too loose because he spends time on the wing. When has Timani ever been sighted on the wing? He's criticised because he's a poor lineout option and has a poor work rate, not that he plays too loose. The article informs that Evans called the lineout in the absence of AW Jones. I would wager everything I own that Evans has not called the lineout in every single Test he has played with Jones since then. When has Ian Evans ever been noted as a specialist lineout forward, and when has AW Jones not been noted as a specialist lineout forward? I also thought the choice of words was pretty informative, but then maybe I'm reading too much into things... Re: AW Jones. It's my contention that Jones isn't a proper 4. He doesn't have the bulk or physicality to clean out rucks (as evidenced on the 2009 Lions tour) as the bigger men do. Significantly he began his Wales career at 6 and then started approximately 19 Tests with Ian Gough and Will James respectively. In the early stages of his career Jones was quite mobile. I don't think he is anymore, hence he has moved to 4. However, in total he has started a further 15 Tests with Brad Davies. That's 34 games (approximately), which is basically half his international career. Jones, unlike Evans, is noted for his work in the air - not his physical impact. He's a good rugby player - clever, but not an athlete in the Paul O'Connell mould. Because of that I'd play him at 5. Obviously that's subjective, but I think it's inaccurate to label him solely as a 4. It's also my contention that he is one of the few players who are transferred across the locking positions like that. If you asked Simmons, Parling, Whitelock, Charteris, Kruger, Bortolami etc to concentrate on boshing rucks and knocking people over then you'd be up the creek without a paddle. Rob Simmons is clearly a loosehead lock. James Horwill is a tighthead lock who is mobile enough to cover 5. Kane Douglas and Timani are tighthead locks. Launchbury and Lawes are neither 4s nor 5s, but again - they are the exception to the rule, which was the entire point of the article.

2013-10-31T16:49:52+00:00

dwayne_board

Guest


Timani started at 6 in the last game of the 2012 rugby championship against Argentina. So Evans has been calling Wales' lineout since the 2012 six nations. I'd say that 20 international games [even if he did miss the tour to Australia] is pretty current and conclusive evidence that he's the preferred lineout captain wouldn't you? And btw Luke Charteris locked the scrum with AWJ for most of the world cup [as a 4]... The England-Australia selections show just how meaningless the labels for second rows have become nowadays. None of those four blokes who will start on Saturday fulfil your specialist brief for the position. Interchangeability is the name of the game. Personally, I like the look of the English back five as a unit, I think it will do some damage.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T16:19:58+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


Edit: Jones played 5 with Davies at 4, and he also, as previously stated, began the early stages of his Test career at 5, with Ian Gough at 4.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T16:04:54+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/9519975.Evans_backed_to_make_right_calls/ AW Jones has called the Welsh lineout for years. AW Jones has played 5 with Davies at 4. The amateur era is irrelevant as the game has changed. Postions are 'fluid' as you keep repeating. I assume this is an age thing. Suggesting you need to match NZ athletically, Timani playing like a loose 6.... Romano and Retallick aren't even particularly good athletes. Your 5th 'point'.... I think that's conclusive enough. Lastly, Deans didn't select Timani at 6.

2013-10-31T15:49:03+00:00

dwayne_board

Guest


[1] Evans calls the Ospreys lineout, he has called the Wales lineout for the last two years - end of story, everything else is rrelevant. No idea where you got the McBryde quote from, but it doesn't really matter because it's not what's happening now at either regional or national level. Evans doesn't play 4, never has and never will - no-one would even think of pairing him with Charteris [or Parling with the Lions]. AWJ has only ever played 5 for Wales in one circumstance - when Bradley Davies is at 4. Give it up. [2] The amateur era is not redundant, it shows historical selection patterns which continue to the present day. I've no doubt Retallick would do a good job at 5, even though it would be a tough ask to replace a player as good as Whitelock. "And I’m pretty sure most people would agree that Whitelock plays in wider channels than Retallick." Would they? Do you have any research to substantiate this claim? Thought not. [3] The truly bizarre obsession is yours - of feeling compelled to label every lock you come across, and then find that none of them quite fit you categories! The comparison you need to be making is between Hamilton and Retallick or Romano - then you will see what a 4 truly can be. No disrespect to Big Jim, solid yeoman that he is, but those two can do all that he can plus a lot more.... Inevitably, NZ sets the standards - and you need to find a way to at least match them in areas such as the athleticism of the back five, where they are world leaders. [4] I get across the border plenty enough to watch rugby thanks. But your assertion that Launchbury doesn't hit rucks is just another unsubstantiated generalization, I'm afraid. He certainly wasn't physical enough against Wales, agreed. Against South Africa and New Zealand in the autumn, he lost nothing in comparison with his opponents. "England struggles with quick ball and has for a while now" - another vacuous generalization. Well they didn't struggle against SA and NZ and Scotland or Ireland did they? In all those games they had anywhere between good and total control of the breakdown. Things only changed after Wood went to 8 and then Croft came into 6 to make it a double whammy for the Welsh match. But hell, you go on believing what you want to, especially about Dave Attwood. I get to see him a lot [Bath is not far from Wales, in case you don't know], and the bloke would not survive a game against SH opposition. He's not a good defender, he doesn't react situations quickly and his work rate is poor. He can be a good lineout player and I assume he pushes his weight in the scrum - but basically you'd be admitting to a chronic lack of ambition by selecting him. He's not even as good as Jim Hamilton. It's just a case of "put a big bloke in and let him snarl at his opponents" [from about 40 metres away].... superficial thinking - if you're going to pick an enforcer, at least find someone halfway decent, don't just do it on principle because of some vague idea you need a heavy bloke to go with a light bloke. [5] Okay let's get specific about the England-Australia, since you're way too slippery to be pinned down to any specifics up til now. By your standards, there will be no proper locks on view at Twickenham, no? You've said Launchbury isn't a 4 and Lawes isn't a 4 or a 5, so that takes care of England. Timani looks like a 4 but plays like a very loose 6 [which is why Deans selected him there towards the end of his tenure], and Horwill is certainly not a 5 - or even a 4 since returning from injury. So by your rules there will be no viable locks playing at Twickenham on Saturday. But please, don't just keep talking, talking, talking. Show me some evidence that you've done some research rather than just formed opinions.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T14:21:02+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


Re: 7. South Africa don't actually play traditional opensides - Brussow and Krige being the actual 7s tried. England don't have a history of developing over the ball 7s either. Ireland have had Gleeson and Jennings in recent seasons, with Wallace obviously having the jersey for a long time, soooo... What does that indicate? NZ trialled So'oialo at 7, but who else was going to usurp McCaw and Kronfield? Not sure where you're going with that? Thinking about selection really isn't changing very quickly.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T14:14:23+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


AWJ is played at 4, but he calls the lineouts. He has called the Welsh lineouts from as far back as 2010. If you watch the Ospreys then you'd probably note what McBryde said about Evans not regularly calling at regional level. Evans is a 4. He plays like a 4. Occasionally calling the lineout doesn't mean anything. AWJ started his career in the 5 role and has moved toward the 4 jersey as he's become less mobile, but he is still essentially a 5. Muller is a 5. Playing a few games with Matfield does not validate anything. Likewise Ryan and O'Connell. Jumping at the front doesn't mean you are a tighthead lock. It really isn't as simple as you're portraying it as. If you try and get Muller to play the Botha role then you're onto a loser. Same applies to Parling. Same applies to Whitelock. Same applies to Matfield and Eales. Martin Johnson was never running up and down the lineout either... O'Connell, however, has the physicality and aggression to really smash rucks. The amateur era is pretty redundant - no point in bringing it up. If you're going to use our Kiwi friend to attempt to confirm your position then it's rather fruitless to ignore the fact that he also says NZ has followed a policy of distinct 4s and 5s. Further, as mentioned (but ignored by you) Retallick covering Whitelock does not mean he has the ability to play 5, it means that there is a dearth of 5 locks in NZ rugby, which there is. Tom Wood played Tests at 8 last season. It doesn't mean he is capable of playing 8 or is a number 8, it means he filled in there. And I'm pretty sure most people would agree that Whitelock plays in wider channels than Retallick. Good hands?! He's a competent ball handler. He's not popping offloads or 30 yard passes, and even if he was it still doesn't have any cosmic significance! This bizarre obsession with NZ really isn't doing anything for you. Just because Hamilton wouldn't make a NZ side doesn't mean he's an antique. He's a good defensive lineout jumper and he hits rucks. He allows Richie Gray to go sprinting down the wing. Rugby is about balance and combinations, and Romano/Retallick are very different players to Whitelock. I don't know what you think that comment about Bird proves. It applies to 99% of locks in Test rugby. You clearly miss my point about Launchbury - as you have the entire article. Launchbury is a fine rugby player, but he doesn't hit a huge amount of rucks or knock people over. When you pair him with another lightweight lock you get slow ball. I'm presuming that as an Ospreys fan you don't watch much English rugby, because England struggles with quick ball and has for a while now. Launchbury is the polar opposite in terms of how he plays rugby to Etzebeth, Van der Merwe, Romano, Retallick, Ryan, O'Connell, Hamilton, Davies, Maestri and AWJ. I'm pretty sure that makes him the exception that proves the rule. This bizarre concept of the modern generic athletic lock is an absolute vacuum. Rugby is a collision sport and the sides who win the contact battle tend to win the game. Launchbury is not that sort of player. Some video footage showing Evans calling a lineout? A quote from Conor O'Shea about one of his players?

2013-10-31T13:30:50+00:00

dwayne_board

Guest


Lord, do I have to explain everything?? : ) .... The last paragraph refers to #7 not the second row. Regarding your reply above, how many vids do I need to show you to convince you that AWJ is NOT a 5?? He didn't play play 5 with Geoff Parling in the Lions did he? He doesn't play 5 when partnered by Ian Evans for either Ospreys and Wales. He has never played 5, just as Ian Evans has never played at 4. FFS I watch the Ospreys every other week so I should know! Clearly a number of top second rows have a bit of both in their make-up. Muller has been paired with Matfield by SA in the past, POC plays increasingly at the front with Donncha Ryan at 5 for Munster, so there's a flexibility there. Etzebeth, Albacete, Retallick, Lawes, Gray, all these guys can play in either position - it's just a question of giving them the right partner. Going back to the All Blacks, they have a history of demanding this flexibility from their locks. Andy Haden started at 5 before moving down to 4 when Gary Whetton came into the side. Whetton moved down to 4 when first Murray Pierce and then Ian Jones came in... Retallick and Whitelock share the same duties as their stats in possession indicate. It's not the case that Retallick is there to do all the donkey work while Whitelock roams out wide - in many areas of the game they are interchangeable, which is why as our NZ friend said, Retallick would replace Whitelock if he was unavailable. I could show you numerous clips of Retallick's good hands on the pass for example, but frankly I can't see the point in bothering... Only today, Hansen said this of Dominic Bird's selection against Japan: "He's an athlete. So not only is he tall, he's co-ordinated. He's got physical attributes we like in the core role so he can be physical. He doesn't mind hitting rucks." They demand an all-rounder at 4, not just a big lump - it's why guys like Jim Hamilton and Flip van der Merwe would never get considered for the AB's.... http://www.espn.co.uk/newzealand/rugby/story/204291.html For England, you say Joe Launchbury is not a 4, but in reality that's exactly what he is. He's always been a 4, right through the England age group sides and into the pro game. Just because he doesn't match your notion of a 4 is irrelevant. He will play there for England for many years, and the process of finding him the best long-term partner begins on Saturday. There's only one of us who's failed to be specific and offer any supporting evidence in this conversation, and it isn't me mate. I've offered videos, stats from a well-respected media source and quotes from coaches. What have you offered? Zilch. Only opinions.

2013-10-31T11:33:21+00:00

Harry Jones

Guest


And now we know the tight five: Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Joe Launchbury, and Courtney Lawes.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T10:14:43+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


Just seen the Australian side. Glad to see Alexander at 3. Not sure if Simmons being absent is good or bad.

2013-10-31T10:12:49+00:00

atlas

Guest


When you say 'most' - don't you mean - almost all? The Telegraph 10:55AM GMT 29 Nov 2012 (Thursday before the test) "All but two members of the New Zealand squad have been afflicted by the vomiting and diarrhoea bug, which first struck before Saturday's 33-10 victory over Wales. Many members of the touring party were confined to their rooms after being afflicted during yesterday's down day. "It's been a difficult week because a lot of guys have been sick with diarrhoea and vomiting," he [Hansen] said. "There are only two players who have escaped the virus. It started in Wales and has just continued. Apparently, half the UK have got it. If you hang around the team hotel too long we will give it to you too. It's a present from the colonials," he joked.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T10:08:13+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


Of Botha, Matfield, Muller, Van der Merwe, Etzebeth, Hargreaves, Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Palmer, Deacon, Attwood, Ryan, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Toner and Tuohy how many of those players have ever played 8? Not a single one. O'Callaghan was introduced to Munster at 6, but has been a 4/5 thereafter. Ryan and Launchbury have played club rugby at 6, but both are now firmly entrenched in 2nd row, and Lawes had one disastrous game at 6 for England. He hasn't played 6 at club level for seasons. Ireland have played Mick Galwey and Paddy Johns in the back row, but clearly they aren't happy to play 'a guy who could also play 6 or even 8 with equal facility in that position'. The thought of Etzebeth or Parling playing 6 or 8 is beyond the realms of bizarre. Further, your comment re: NZ clearly contradicts your previous references to Reuben Thorne and Troy Flavell. Jason Eaton has played blindside for the Hurricanes too. Of course locks are more interchangeable than props. It's always been like that, but there are still clearly defined 4-5 partnerships all over world rugby. I really don't see what's so hard to grasp about that? There quite obviously is no changing of thinking. Nothing has changed. Some sides historically have played two 4s together, or two 5s, but generally speaking there is a distinction.

AUTHOR

2013-10-31T09:56:08+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


That is a fair point re: Marler. I accept that. The same poster who confirmed what I said about NZ locks... Anyway, as aforementioned - being able to cover 5 doesn't make you a 5. What you're saying is ridiculously tenuous, and ridiculously simplistic. And I repeat: he doesn’t compare stylistically to O’Connell, AWJ, Parling, Kellock, Muller, Charteris, Kruger or Simmons.He isn't a 5, nor is he an exceptional athlete, nor is there an increasing shift toward generic locks. As for the rest what you're saying is clearly incorrect, so I suggest you take a dose of your own advice, stop cherry picking, being evasive, offer something specific and leave Wikipedia well alone.

2013-10-30T19:40:40+00:00

dwayne_board

Guest


I'd agree with most of that - it's not rocket science, it's more common sense. You pick what works - Bakkies-Victor worked, but arguably no better than Jack/Williams in their era. I'd also agree that locks are more interchangeable than say, props. Tighthead and loosehead are much more specialised than a 4 or a 5. NZ would probably swap Retallick/Whitelock, but they would never play Tony Woodcock at 3! I think lock is one of the positions on the field where the thinking about selection is changing very quickly - rather like 7. South Africa, Ireland and England are quite happy to play a guy who could also play 6 or even 8 with equal facility in that position - but hard to imagine Oz or NZ doing likewise. So the thinking is fluid and likely to remain so for a while to come...

2013-10-30T19:29:50+00:00

dwayne_board

Guest


Well it's clear the possibility of reaching some reasonable aqreement has passed :) The knowledgeable poster you mention actually said, "Retallick can cover 4 or 5. Romano is the out and out 4. If Whitelock went down, Retallick would shift to 5 and Romano would be at 4 or Thrush or Luatua or whoever’s covering lock." If that doesn't spell it out to you, nothing will! FYI Kohn didn't pack behind Marler - he played behind Johnston. Maybe you should take a leaf out of Scott Allen's book and try offering something really solid with video or stat support. You're sadly typical of a growing kind of internet 'analyst' who just blusters away without offering any evidence for your claims. When challenged they bluster even more. Kindergarten stuff.

2013-10-30T19:22:08+00:00

Harry Jones

Guest


Doesn't this issue turn much more on "best big athlete available?" Than on some doctrinal difference? If a clearly, profoundly 4-5 combo (think, Bakkies and Victor) emerges, gels, and works together, you'd always pick that first. It's optimal. But of course you want the 5 to have some grunt, and the 4 to be able to run and pass, too. But, it's very hard to find that duo and even harder to keep them healthy for an extended time. NZ and SA think they have found their combos for the future (Whitelock-Retaillick and Etzebeth-du Toit), but locks get hurt. So, coaches have to be pragmatic (Flip at 5). I don't think the lock positions are as interchangeable as some other combos (loose forwards); but they are more interchangeable than the two props or centres, for example. I doubt any coach would leave a healthy O'Connell, Etzebeth or Whitelock out of their teams based on a 4-5 ideology. A jumper in the middle; a jumper in the front. Rucks cleaned early and often. Power at scrum. One guy that goes 80 minutes. It's a difficult position to fill and combine; and probably one of the combos that coaches ponder the most, until they find a real duo.

AUTHOR

2013-10-30T17:59:51+00:00

Ben.S

Roar Guru


This really is becoming painfully drawn out. The entire thing rests on your lack of understanding of modern locks. The reality is that Retallick is not a 5 lock. That's the thrust of the argument. Your comment about him at the Chiefs holds no water, and your comment about him playing there with NZ holds no water. Last season it was quite obvious that following the retirement of Thorn Hansen identified Romano and Retallick as his locks to accompany Whitelock - the bonafide 5 lock, hence the fact that when Whitelock was fit he was always started and Romano and Retallick were alternated. Retallick doesn't compare to Etzebeth athletically - that's an outrageous parallel, and he doesn't compare stylistically to O'Connell, AWJ, Parling, Kellock, Muller, Charteris, Kruger or Simmons. And that's that. He played 5 for NZ when Whitelock wasn't fit, as opposed to your misinformed 'injured finger' comment, and NZ have, in my lifetime, always played distinct 4s and 5s, apart from the Jack-Williams period. The same re: the Chiefs applies to Jim Hamilton. Gloucester have had a weak front row/pack for a while now, so they played James and Hamilton, or Hamilton and Brown. That doesn't mean Hamilton is a 5, it means Gloucester played 2 tighthead locks. Likewise Gray and Hamilton for Scotland. Jerry Guscott wore 12 jersey. He wasn't a 12. Lawes only played 5 with Deacon for England. Why? Because Johnson identified the fact that Lawes wasn't a 4. He's neither a 4 nor a 5, something I've mentioned in numerous articles - the same applies to Launchbury (who also plays club rugby with a proper 4 - Myall {cherry picking by you]). He also played 5 because Tom Croft was playing 6. Lawes has only started calling the lineout on occasion for Northampton this season. Christian Day always did that. This is an example of Lawes progressing his game - his core locking duties, not being a 5. I suggest you go back and research how well Ian Evans went calling the lineouts in the 6N, and consider the quote from McBryde. I didn't say Evans was incapable of calling the lineout, I said it was a facet of his play not noted for. Of all the locks selected AWJ and O'Connell were always going to start in the Tests. That left Evans. Gray and Parling. If Parling started he called the lineout. If Evans started he did. Why? Because Gray never has. Evans calling the lineout against England really doesn't mean anything because of the absence of AWJ for the majority of the tournament, and he doesn't call the lineouts for the Ospreys - or, call them regularly. He doesn't even start for the Ospreys any more. Who said Johnstone was the best 3 in the Premiership? His club coach? That's informative. I mentioned Kohn in reference to Marler. That's not the same as saying one player has affected the entire scrum. 4. Literally no point? Robinson was a 4 and Eaton a 5. Go and ask any NZ rugby fan that question and see what they say. Flavell was a good aggressive athlete who they tried to find a place for. Doesn't mean Rueben Thorne was part of an All Black trend of athletes who could play anywhere! You've cherry picked, swiped stuff from Wikipedia and been contradicted by one of the most knowleadgable people on this site about Kiwi locks. At the end of the day there is still a clear distinction of 4s and 5s across world rugby. You're basing your entire argument on the fact that Etzebeth has developed his game this year and because Retallick played in conjunction with Romano. Arrant nonsense.

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