Izzy to be No.1 dual international: Sailor

By Darren Walton, Darren Walton is a Roar Guru

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    Former Kangaroo and Wallaby Wendell Sailor is tipping Israel Folau will wind up as the greatest dual international of the professional era.

    In Sailor’s opinion, English 2003 Rugby World Cup winger Jason Robinson and Sydney Roosters juggernaut Sonny Bill Williams, who hoisted the Webb Ellis Cup with the All Blacks in 2011, presently share the mantle.

    But after watching Folau equal Lote Tuqiri’s all-time record for most Wallabies tries in a calendar year during a spectacular 15-Test debut season, Sailor thinks the 24-year-old will have Robinson and SBW covered by the end of his career.

    Tuqiri, Sailor and fellow rugby league convert Mat Rogers played a total of 149 Tests and amassed 57 tries, but Sailor says Folau has already eclipsed all three as Australia’s premier dual international.

    “I think Israel, he’s mixed a bit of everything,” Sailor told AAP.

    “He’s taken what Lote’s done, what I’ve done, Mat Rogers … and Israel even though he’s a by-product of that, I just think Israel’s taken it to a new level now.

    “Jason Robinson, Sonny Bill has been good, but I think he can nearly be better than all of those guys.

    “He’s only 24 or 25 or something. He can probably go to a whole new level.”

    Folau remains the youngest player, at 18, to represent Australia in a rugby league Test and scored on debut for both the Kangaroos and the Wallabies, collecting a memorable double against the touring British and Irish Lions in Melbourne this year.

    Sailor attributes the code-hopper’s tough two-year stint in the AFL with Greater Western Sydney for his rapid rise in rugby.

    “Just his confidence, I think going to AFL has helped him because from league he was at the heights of his stuff and then when you go to AFL you have to learn new stuff,” he said.

    “And he was in reserve grade a bit and getting ripped into a bit about not being that good at that level.

    “I think it just shows that hunger.

    “His switch (to rugby) was amazing. They were playing against the British lions – that can’t be easy to do, but he was our best player and was nearly the best player through the series.

    “I’d like to see him come back to league at some stage, but (after) a few more years in rugby and I’m happy he’s going well because I know he got kicked a bit when he went to AFL and he showed what a class act he is.”

    © AAP 2018

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    The Crowd Says (158)

    • December 25th 2013 @ 1:43am
      Batdown said | December 25th 2013 @ 1:43am | ! Report

      Merry Christmas Darren!

      Not too sure about Wendell’s comments, win at least a RWC and a S15 title with the Tahs then Folau should obviously be considered “the greatest dual int. player”.

      Two obvious questions that needed to be asked…

      Can the Wallabies make it out of the pool stages with England and Wales in the mix to win the WC?

      Can the Waratahs utilize their rugby personnel to win the S15 next year?

      • December 25th 2013 @ 4:05pm
        Tane Mahuta said | December 25th 2013 @ 4:05pm | ! Report

        If Israel never wins a WC or a super title it will have no indication of how good he was or is. Those are team accomplishments and as Parrise can testify to, a teams performance does not give you any indication of how good the individual players are.

        • December 26th 2013 @ 12:21am
          Leon said | December 26th 2013 @ 12:21am | ! Report

          wrong there. It usually takes someone special to lift a team. He would be only considered a ‘talented player’ rather than a ‘great’ player’ if he does not have the trophies to back it up….this includes the rugby championships/

          • December 26th 2013 @ 11:17am
            PeterK said | December 26th 2013 @ 11:17am | ! Report

            being in the no 1 team in the world makes it a lot easy to win TEAM trophies. No way do these mark how good an individual is. Otherwise EVERY player who has ever won a RWC is better than all the players who never have. Totally illogical argument.

            • December 26th 2013 @ 12:36pm
              Leon said | December 26th 2013 @ 12:36pm | ! Report

              you do realize you dont have to be no. 1 to win trophies. right? SA werent no. 1 leading into the 2007 WC. Australia and SA have won the tri nations with nz being no. 1.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 1:03pm
                PeterK said | December 26th 2013 @ 1:03pm | ! Report

                of course, but what you are saying is NO WELSH OR FRENCH or current Australian or ENGLISH player is better than any NZ player who won the RWC.

                Very very illogical argument.

                Not every single player in the team is a special play who lifts the team as you suggest.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 2:39pm
                Leon said | December 26th 2013 @ 2:39pm | ! Report

                since when did I say NZ players are BETTER than other players?? you have clearly misunderstood.

                Have you ever notice that great players in the pro era have been a part of very successful teams? Eales, Gregan, Johnson, Wilkinson, Lomu, McCaw. Carter, Your so called ‘logical argument does not work in the reality of how the rugby world including past players, global fans, rugby pundits and experts judge a ‘great’ player.

                To be a considered great player you need the trophies to back it up which establish that reputation. You are more likely to be considered a great player if you can stand out in a successful team because that is the reality when people make judgements on individual talent. IDo you think McCaw or Carter would be deemed the greatest no. 7 and 10 playing in a team ranked outside the top 4-5? Furthermore you do not have to be the best team on the planet to win trophies. If you cant understand that then that is your issue to figure out.

                “Not every single player in the team is a special play who lifts the team as you suggest”

                Wrong there. Few examples

                Carter and McCaw were or are still the ABs stand out players. Players that make a difference to a team. Prior to 2011 many believed the ABs werent as formidable without these two.

                Eales and Gregan-two players that lifted the team.

                Wilkinson-England wouldnt be the same without this guy.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 5:08pm
                Jerry said | December 26th 2013 @ 5:08pm | ! Report

                Carter has only won 1 RWC playoff match and that was in 2003 off the bench against SA. He’s won a RWC despite being injured before the 1/4 final and lost a RWC in 07 despite the team leading when he walked off the pitch. Not sure he really backs your point up to be honest.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 5:27pm
                Leon said | December 26th 2013 @ 5:27pm | ! Report

                ‘Trophies’ are not RWC if you have noticed.

                Its includes RWC, Tri nations, super rugby titles, Bledisloe, 6N titles, HC titles. Folau had none of them but most people on here dont get this point.

                Carter and McCaw has WCs, Super rugby, Tri nations, RC trophies to thier name.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 11:35pm
                PeterK said | December 26th 2013 @ 11:35pm | ! Report

                Kafer, Botha and Roussow are all RWC winners, TN’s winners, Super rugby winners, and Heinekin winners.
                Giteau and Kafer also won the Bledisloe.

                None of these players would I rate as a great of the game. This totally disproves the argument that being in winning teams means a player is a great player.

              • December 27th 2013 @ 2:38pm
                Keith said | December 27th 2013 @ 2:38pm | ! Report

                PeterK-since when did Kafer, Botha, Roussow, Giteau and Kafer been considered greats of the game?

                Botha is more memorable as being a dirty player and Giteau is not in the same class class as Carter when he was around.

                The fact is Folau would recieve more accolades being apart of a team that can win things.

              • December 27th 2013 @ 2:53pm
                Jerry said | December 27th 2013 @ 2:53pm | ! Report

                Might wanna re-read the post you replied to Keith.

                For what it’s worth, despite the odd grubby act, Botha was a world class lock for years. I also think his reputation is a bit over the top, mostly he just niggled and only tipped over into actual thuggish play on a few occasions. There have been plenty of dirty players over the years who haven’t got anything like the press he did.

              • December 27th 2013 @ 6:25pm
                Magic Sponge said | December 27th 2013 @ 6:25pm | ! Report

                What about Hugo Porta from Argentina. A great player with no trophies.

              • December 27th 2013 @ 7:58pm
                Leon said | December 27th 2013 @ 7:58pm | ! Report

                PeterK, you need to re-read my previous post.

                “You are MORE LIKELY to be considered a great player if you can stand out in a successful team because that is the reality when people judge on individual talent”

                Great players emerge out of successful teams. This does not mean 1-15 in considered great. I gave you examples where certain individual players are MORE LIKELY to be recognised as great individual players being apart of teams that can win things than a player playing in a team this is not successful.It’s just the way way rugby experts and fans will judge players

                Lomu, Carter, McCaw, Sir John Kirwan, Sean Fitzpatrick, Wayne Shelford, Meads emerged out of great AB teams.

                Gregan, Eales, Mark Ella, Campese,Nick Farr-Jones, emerged out of great WB sides that had titles.

                Wilkinson, Johnson emerged out a great England side that won titles.

                Serge Blanco came from a French side that won grand slams in the Five nations

                Barry John and Gareth Edwards emerged out of the golden generation of Welsh rugby that ruled Europe.

                Maybe when the WBs start winning trophies, you might understand where Im coming from.

          • December 26th 2013 @ 4:49pm
            Buzzard said | December 26th 2013 @ 4:49pm | ! Report

            Was Jonah Lomu no good then because he never won a RWC?????

            • December 26th 2013 @ 5:38pm
              Leon said | December 26th 2013 @ 5:38pm | ! Report

              refer to my previous comment-

              Lomu has never won a RWC but he has the 1996, 1999 tri nations titles, Bledisloe titles, 1998 Rugby 7 Commonwealth Gold s and 2001 RWC 7s title.

              Something Folau is yet to achieve.

              Missing the point are we?

              • December 26th 2013 @ 9:00pm
                soapit said | December 26th 2013 @ 9:00pm | ! Report

                which of those did lomu win in his first season?

              • December 26th 2013 @ 9:07pm
                Chan Wee said | December 26th 2013 @ 9:07pm | ! Report

                Lomu was a winner in HK 7S in 1994 , his first tournament as a 19 year old.

                am not sure who won the world series 7S or if it even existed way back then πŸ™‚

              • December 26th 2013 @ 10:15pm
                Leon said | December 26th 2013 @ 10:15pm | ! Report

                @at soapbox,

                you have already missed the point by a long shot :s

              • December 28th 2013 @ 7:35pm
                soapit said | December 28th 2013 @ 7:35pm | ! Report

                you specifically chose to compare someones career long achievements against someone who has had only one season. i really cant think what possible point you would be trying to effectively argue by doing so

              • December 31st 2013 @ 1:56pm
                Angus said | December 31st 2013 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

                I’m with you all the way Soapit….Leon, grow a brain mate!!!!

    • December 25th 2013 @ 2:42am
      Colin McCann said | December 25th 2013 @ 2:42am | ! Report

      As mentioned elsewhere, methinks Sailor has overlooked Big Bad Brad Thorn

      • Roar Pro

        December 25th 2013 @ 6:02am
        alex hayllar said | December 25th 2013 @ 6:02am | ! Report

        yeah def overlooked brad thorn the most successful duel international player ever sbw and folau have nothing on him

        • December 25th 2013 @ 7:02am
          Vincent said | December 25th 2013 @ 7:02am | ! Report

          I can’t see Folau surpassing Thorn anytime soon, either for achievements or as an individual.

          As a tight forward Thorn had to develop a range of skills in Rugby he didn’t have or need in League-lineout, scrum and ruck work. He not only developed these skills, he was among the very best forwards in Rugby in all three areas.

          • December 25th 2013 @ 3:10pm
            Chan Wee said | December 25th 2013 @ 3:10pm | ! Report

            @ Vincent :

            Folau has around 12-13 years to get to where Big Brad is at !

            In League 200 club matches and 22 rep matches
            in Union 147 club matches and 60 test matches

            the hard part will be matching his medals and cups !!!

            in addition to various tiles in League Thorn is the only player in Union to have won Super, NPC, Trinations, Heneken and World cups.

            One reason SBW wanted to go to League world cup maybe is to become the guy who won both World cups, something Thorn did not achieve πŸ™‚

            • December 25th 2013 @ 6:29pm
              vincent said | December 25th 2013 @ 6:29pm | ! Report

              CW, there is also no guarantee Folau will stay with Rugby long term. I just think its premature for someone like Sailor to make predictions like this, just watch and see how things play out.

              It would be better to say Folau has the potential to become the best cross code recruit in Rugby.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 4:16pm
                Chan Wee said | December 26th 2013 @ 4:16pm | ! Report

                @ vincent :

                Folau will also suffer from being in average teams as opposed to very good teams.

                There are many examples in football, where players who are deemed exceptional talents suffer from being in average teams ; Rayan Giggs and Gareth Bale of Wales, Zlatan Ibrahimovic of Sweeden, Robert Lewandowski of Poland, Demba Ba of Colombia, Petr Cech of Cezch, to name a few.

                Only good thing for such players in footy at least is they have the chance win trophies with the best of clubs. Because there is no selection policy issues in footy players can go anywhere , just as long as they are around for country commitments. πŸ™‚

            • December 26th 2013 @ 5:10pm
              Jerry said | December 26th 2013 @ 5:10pm | ! Report

              I think Rod Kafer has won all those cups too.

              • December 26th 2013 @ 8:58pm
                Chan Wee said | December 26th 2013 @ 8:58pm | ! Report

                @ Jerry :

                Has he won Bledisloe ? coz I think trinations did not exist when he was playing rugger.

                however dont forget the main point of the argument – cross-code, – which Kafer is not πŸ™‚


              • December 26th 2013 @ 9:06pm
                Jerry said | December 26th 2013 @ 9:06pm | ! Report

                He played with the Wallabies up to about 2000 or 2001, I’m pretty sure he won a TN too.

                I recall when Thorn won the Heineken Cup some people were asking if he was the first to win all those and someone pointed out that Kafter had already done it. Something of an anomaly perhaps in that he was a bit player on the international scene unlike Thorn.

                I’ve just had a look on Kafer’s wiki page and he did play in the 2000 TN. It also points out that the Super/Heineken Cup double has been done by Bakkies Botha, Danie Roussow and Matt Giteau. Botha and Roussow have also won a RWC and TN with the Boks.

              • December 28th 2013 @ 7:40pm
                chann wee said | December 28th 2013 @ 7:40pm | ! Report

                @ JERRY

                people were all correct.

                Brad Thorn is the first and only cross-code player to win it all, to date.

                may be there will be others in time to come, but he will always be the first !!!

                unless there will be the one who wins both world cups πŸ˜€

      • December 26th 2013 @ 10:58pm
        COMIN IN FROM THE SIDE said | December 26th 2013 @ 10:58pm | ! Report

        Big bad Aussie Brad Thorn….TOP BLOKE!

    • December 25th 2013 @ 6:39am
      Storm Boy said | December 25th 2013 @ 6:39am | ! Report

      So Izzy the greatest ever dual international? Good one Wendell. Jason Robinson is miles in front.

      Someone might have to remind us what Izzy did wearing the Kangaroos jersey. His greatest moments in the Wallabies are surely yet to come, but I am struggling to think of what great things were done in his Kangaroos days.

      • December 25th 2013 @ 2:47pm
        RugbyFan said | December 25th 2013 @ 2:47pm | ! Report

        Well, he’s scored 6 tries from 8 games and is the youngest ever Kangaroo at 18 yrs old. That’s a pretty big achievement I’d say.

        • December 26th 2013 @ 11:11pm
          Keith said | December 26th 2013 @ 11:11pm | ! Report

          so did Ben Smith…does that make him great? no. Greatness is achieved over a long period of time.

          • December 28th 2013 @ 1:20pm
            RugbyFan said | December 28th 2013 @ 1:20pm | ! Report

            What about Ben Smith?

      • December 25th 2013 @ 4:27pm
        Nick said | December 25th 2013 @ 4:27pm | ! Report

        No where near Brad thorn

        No one is. A powerhouse who is sorely missed within the best team in the world. Says it all really

        • December 29th 2013 @ 12:41pm
          RugbyFan said | December 29th 2013 @ 12:41pm | ! Report

          Is he really? All Blacks don’t seem to be missing him at all

        • December 29th 2013 @ 12:47pm
          Chivas said | December 29th 2013 @ 12:47pm | ! Report

          Not sure Thorne would have even been an AB if Willis has stayed and not gone to Japan. So a pretty big call backed up by…..

          • December 29th 2013 @ 1:02pm
            Jerry said | December 29th 2013 @ 1:02pm | ! Report

            That’s a bizarre suggestion – Royce Willis played in 1 test off the bench in his last 3 seasons in NZ and Thorn was initially chosen (by Wayne Smith) in 2001 before Willis went to Japan, though he chose not to accept at that time.

            • December 29th 2013 @ 1:19pm
              Chivas said | December 29th 2013 @ 1:19pm | ! Report

              In 2002 Wayne Smith wasn’t in sight. He had had a breakdown and left the building. Willis was coming off the back of a huge season and had matured greatly. He also wasn’t up against Ian Jones, Robin Brioke and Norm a Maxwell. There was a gaping hole at lock when Royce left. You would be one of a very small set who would thought that Royce wouldn’t have become an established AB the tear he walked away.

              Many previous locks including pine tree thought we lost something special. Brad Thorn’s work rate was appallingly low when he first made the AB’s.

              The fact Wayne Smith asked Thorn means little considering Thorn didn’t join then and he was never the forwards coach after his meltdown.

              My point was Willis would have been there for height and locking ability which weren’t assets Thorne brought to the game at the beginning of his career. He had strength and was more aware of how to use it, which he established in large part in league. By 2002 Willis had matured that part of his game too.

              What might be construed as bizarre is the fact you miss these rather salient points.

              • December 29th 2013 @ 1:40pm
                Jerry said | December 29th 2013 @ 1:40pm | ! Report

                Well the fact that Willis played 10 minutes of test rugby in 2002 suggests that John Mitchell might have been among that small set too (though I’m not so sure I want to let him in).

                The fact Wayne Smith asked Thorn means Thorn could have been an All Black, had he chose to be, before Royce Willis went to Japan which kind of makes the statement “Thorne would have even been an AB if Willis has stayed and not gone to Japan” seem inaccurate. All the more inaccurate because when Thorn was first picked he was viewed as a utility lock/loose forward which Willis wasn’t.

                Finally, even if Royce Willis had become an established AB in 2002/3, who’s to say he’d still have been there in 2008 when Thorn returned from League?

              • December 29th 2013 @ 5:20pm
                Chivas said | December 29th 2013 @ 5:20pm | ! Report

                On what grounds do you pronounce that. If you didn’t see it and the best response is good for him. Then that is fine. History says Brad played for the AB’s and your comments seem to be what you can find on pages here. It doesn’t matter what Graham Henry or Colin Meads and many others thought I guess. Have a look at who was lock in each of the tests and the dwindling stocks…

                If you think that Willis wouldn’t have been an AB and being the same age as Thorn, taller and heavier wouldn’t have held down a spot in the AB’s that is fine. It is conjecture anyway, but to make a condescending statement that someone else’s opinion is bizarre because you have no recollection of the events is just weak. Bizarre backed up with good for him? Good for you Jerry. Do you know who Aaron Hopa? He may also have been a great AB, but if you look it up he only played one or so full tests.

                I find your logic bizarre. Tell me who the locks were and what the choices were. Tell me how he would have not been picked. Not just silly stuff I can find on the Internet. Join the dots if you want or go around making bizarre comments based on what you can look up and repeat.

              • December 29th 2013 @ 6:03pm
                Chan Wee said | December 29th 2013 @ 6:03pm | ! Report

                @ Chivas :

                that he started only 4 of the 12 tests played in seem to suggest, Willis was more a Thrush than a Retallick / Romano πŸ™‚

                according to ESPN he played from 1998 -2002 (MIB 975)

                Norm Maxwell (36), Reuben Thorne (51), Troy Flavell (22), Chris Jack (68), Simon Maling (13), Keith Robinson (12), Ali Williams (78), Brad Mika (3) all made their debuts after him.

                Thorne and Flavell were blindside cum 2nd rowers. Keith Robinson was the “enforcer” for a time , though he was injury prone.

                Brad Thorn came in 2003. (MIB 1035)

              • December 29th 2013 @ 8:48pm
                Jerry said | December 29th 2013 @ 8:48pm | ! Report

                Yeah, you don’t get it.

                I’m not saying Willis wouldn’t have been a regular All Black. He might have been. I mean, Simon Maling, Greg Rawlinson and Kevin O’Neill played for the AB’s in the years after so it’s possible. It’s also possible, though far less likely, that he’d still have been one in 2008.

                He debuted in 1998, even if he’d become a regular it’s likely he’d have gone to an NH club after 2007 like many other players did. He retired from all rugby in 2009 anyway.

                Here’s some stats –
                AB’s who debuted in 98 who were still there in 08 – None
                AB’s who debuted in 99 who were still there in 08 – None
                AB’s who debuted in 00 who were still there in 08 – 2 (and both were gone by 09)
                AB’s who debuted in 01 who were still there in 09 – 1

                Here’s the point I’m making:

                Even if Willis had become a regular AB in 02/03 (which is by no means certain as he’d have had to get past Chris Jack for the tight lock spot) and had kept Thorn out of the 03 squad there’s very little chance of him still being there in 08 when Thorn became an established member of the team.

            • December 29th 2013 @ 1:41pm
              Chivas said | December 29th 2013 @ 1:41pm | ! Report

              One more small detail you might wish to include, so your comments don’t appear out of context when you mention three years. One of those years he was out injured and had a slow come back from his groin. Graham Henry on the other hand did appear to rate him.

              • December 29th 2013 @ 2:24pm
                Jerry said | December 29th 2013 @ 2:24pm | ! Report

                Good for him. Willis was never first choice and may or may not have been first choice had he stayed, who knows. One thing I’m reasonably confident about thought is that his selection or non selection in 02/03 would almost certainly not have prevented Brad Thorn’s selection in 08-11.

      • December 31st 2013 @ 2:35pm
        Angus said | December 31st 2013 @ 2:35pm | ! Report

        Wake up Storm Boy…Wendel’s “tipping Israel Folau to wind up as the greatest dual international of the professional era”….was merely him suggesting Folau may be remembered as being the greatest code crosser ever…NOT that he is NOW!!!!!! How could you possibly compare Israel’s achievements with PAST Union convert Jason Robinson. Give him time mate…if he commits to Union long term, Folau could possibly wind up as the greatest dual international of the professional era…just sayin!!!!!!

    • December 25th 2013 @ 8:58am
      hemi said | December 25th 2013 @ 8:58am | ! Report

      hahahahahahahahahahahaha I thought it was Christmas not april fools day.2 words Wendell,BRAD THORN!!

    • December 25th 2013 @ 9:03am
      Rod said | December 25th 2013 @ 9:03am | ! Report

      Thorn by considerable margin, That said, Folau has looked more dangerous in 12 months of Rugby than he did in his entire league career. Folau I feel is more suited to union than league.

      • December 25th 2013 @ 6:22pm
        Chan Wee said | December 25th 2013 @ 6:22pm | ! Report

        @ ROD :

        have u heard of “second season syndrome” ?

        it is used to explain the plight of a team or a player that does great in one season and flops in the immediate next season.

        for example , people were looking at Eben Etzebeth and Loe Launchbury to see if they will flop in 2013 after announcing themselves in 2012.

        the same eyes were on Chiefs , to see if thier S15 win was a one off (like the Reds previously).

        now Israel Folau has to back up his first season with a simillar or better second season , else he will be a flop. that wont mean he will fade away into the sunset , but just that it was hype more than real class.

        lot of sportsmen and women are in this category , in footy, cricket, tennis, athletics, ….etc

        in music there is a term : “one hit wonder” which is on the same lines (but is used mainly in baseball and sometimes cricket) πŸ™‚

        • December 26th 2013 @ 11:25am
          Rod said | December 26th 2013 @ 11:25am | ! Report

          Chan Wee, not prepared to call Izzy the best by any stretch of the imagination. TBH I did not think he would be all that good to start with. But he has been impressive. His running whilst good in league, never reached the heights he has achieved this year, so yes next year he may not be as dominant. But his trying score rate is simply amazing and has remained the same in his new code. That will be an important barometer as far as Izzy’s success moving forward is concerned.

          • December 26th 2013 @ 3:51pm
            Chan Wee said | December 26th 2013 @ 3:51pm | ! Report

            @ ROD :

            IF played against Lions (3), NZ(3), ARG(2), SA(2), ENG(1), IRE(1), SCO(1), WAL(1), ITA(1).

            He scored 4 against Argies, 2 against Lions, and one each against NZ, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

            What’s noteable was he scored just one try against NZ and none against SA during the 4 nations.

            Also at least during the early part of the season there was over-reliance on IF ro score – hence the term JGITF πŸ™‚

            Another point many have missed is , SBW is a forward in league ; IF has always been a back in both codes.

            • December 31st 2013 @ 2:57pm
              Angus said | December 31st 2013 @ 2:57pm | ! Report

              For God’s sake give it a break Chan bloody Wee. Continue to be a Folau HATER but puleeaese…keep it to your self wilya!!!!!!

              • December 31st 2013 @ 5:20pm
                johnson said | December 31st 2013 @ 5:20pm | ! Report

                No please Chan Wee keep at it, I love hearing your opinion over and over and over and over…..

    • December 25th 2013 @ 9:08am
      Geoff Brisbane said | December 25th 2013 @ 9:08am | ! Report

      Thorn 1st 2nd and 3rd

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