The criticism directed at Sir Alex is warranted

They are now! It has added a lot of much needed unpredictability for both EPL and United fans :)

Who cares? ManU're crap! Get over it... ;)

sorry jb but we won't agree, and this is a circular argument. Did you not use Walter Smith as an example of a successful manager who struggled at Everton, pre Moyes. My comment was winning a 2 horse Scottish race is not a great "success". Alternately Ferguson (along with Dundee U), broke into the Scottish duopoly with limited resources - a great achievement? Do you not see the difference? Who gave the deteriorating Rooney (I agree with you) a new contract extension, with extra perks (captaincy?) ? Moyes Moyes record suggests he is not a top echelon manager. He achieved par with Everton, 7th biggest club, averaged 7th place. Time alone doesn't change that. Give me an example of a manager who suddenly starts winning after 15 years jb? Managers are either successful quickly, or they become a survival/midtable specialists? It's a mindset. Agree? I know who Archie Knox is jb (without needing to google it). I'm sure you didn't mean it as a slight, but don't assume others don't have your extensive knowledge Ironically only time will decide who is right on this jb. Sadly if Moyes gets time the next man will have a serious job on his hands :)

Fadida I think you & Iwould have to meet face to face on this subject to try &find common ground. I'll try from the bottom of your latest comment. No one can offer evidence that Moyes is good enough until he is given time to do or not to do that You mention the inexperienced coaches.Suddenly the emphasis (and blame?) is being shifted to the coaching staff.No? When Fergie took over the first thing he did was hire Archie Knox to be his sideman. Do you know who Archi was?Later on Fergie also appointed Walter Smith to a coaching position where he remained for 2 years.Then Walter was offered the Rangers job and went back to Glasgow taking with him-------Archie Knox You then begin to use "rules" of others in this debate and say I "imply". I thought you knew me better than that,I don't imply ,I say. Talking about Mourinho brings me to another aspect of United's history.From their history it appears the power brokers in the club lean towards long term appointments.Busby ,the man who built the foundation was there for around 22/3 years followed by a host of movers and shakers who did nothing of note before Fergie started his reign and struggled for 5 years. Moyes has a 5 year contract so it would appear the board believe in longevity of tenure,and stay away from the mercenary gypsies who usually get success but at what cost?. Will we ever know? You say Moyes is a battler better suited to mid league but much lower budget clubs. Now he has moved you give 8 months,a bit hard don't you think? You then get to my point, players.You see what I see and I see players who are slow,ageing,technically inept, and Wayne Rooney has gone public saying it is up to the players to get United back to the top. Is he right? I don't know Moyes either and am not prepared to pass comment until I see what he does to replace a few players who IMO need replacing urgently. Your "fable" comment re. Walter Smith is way beneath your intelligence. One minute you are using Fergies record in the "two horse race" to underpin his talent and then call Walter Smith's 12 league championships in the same league as a fable.What am I to believe?. I'll leave that comment where it should be-----forgotten. Fadida,let's skip this subject for it is a million miles outside our influence and will continue to be just what it is----opinions. Your mate jb

I'm repeating myself on different threads here jb. I have noticed your repetition of the Walter Smith fable. He came from winning a two horse Scottish league (with one of only 2 horses in the race). A number of poor to average managers have done the same. Fergie's Scotland was a different one. He broke the 2 horse race and won in Europe. I do not know Moyes. I don't need to. I watch his team selections, his tactical setups and his lack of changes. This tells me he is not good enough, and never will be. We could discuss all day his formation and his personnel. I watch players who won multiple titles floundering and disorganised. They could pass last season. Where does this responsibility lie. Coaches? Manager? Have the players really deteriorated by 50%? Even the young ones? Moyes is a battler, which is why he won admiration at Everton. He is suited for a Villa, Everton, Sunderland. Manchester United are a Goliath of world football. Their job is to diminate games.They need a manager whose skill set goes beyond battling. I have no problem with them not winning (15 years before I saw them win a league), but some of comments here suggest that they accept a downward cycle, that it is an unchangeable fate? Ah, no. Barca and Real wouldn't accept it. Finally, Mourinho won the lot with Porto, punching well above his weight. This is what the best do. He then won at both Inter and Chelsea, I believe both at the first time of asking? It can be done. It's a fallacy that "transition" is mandatory. You seem to imply that the manager can do little to effect games. I disagree. It is he and his coaches that organise defences and stop the concession of easy goals. Who are Moyes coaches? An inexperienced lot combined with those whose goal was to play as the underdog in games. They've certainly brought that mentality with them - one of their few successes! Finally, can anyone offer evidence that Moyes is good enough to turn this around? Or does "time" magically make him into a great manager?

They in their first coaching roles so they're not exactly highly credentialed

Fadida- I am not a Moyes' 'lover". I don't know the man so can't pass comment on how he thinks or acts but although you make good discussion in general terms I think there are a few points you should consider.When Moyes took over Everton the club was in the doldrums.They had hired a man from Scotland,Walter Smith, with a far better record than Fergie's Aberdeen but he had failed to turn what was more than a football problem around .Moyes apparenty steadied the ship and got his team, playing in company they probably couldn't afford to be in to a reasonable standard.This resulted in 3 years 2002/05/08 he was named manager of the year not by journos or TV pundits but by his peers,other football managers. Apparently the team's league position didn't affect these voters for I think these people would have known of the financial contraints he was working within.The reason I mention this is to highlight that although a mid-table manager there were others who thought,given a chance ,he may "make the top". Apart from that I have discussed elsewhere your assertion of how Fergie re-built the club,he did so on the transfer market over a period of 5 years and for every success story and he had a few there were matching disasters (his own son being one). United have hired Moyes. What I see on the field is players who cannot string 3 or 4 passes together,players in defence who are slow to pick up opponents (or should I say the opponents are too quick), players who are coming on in age and fitness,and as you say,a manager trying his damndest to turn what he has into a successful team. I'll finish by making an obsevation for you to consider,Against the most potent attack in the league,Liverpool,United conceded 3 goals,two coming from the penalty spot. When against the second best attack force in the league the first goal could be said to be unlucky,the ball re-bounding off the post straight to an "unmarked" striker (good defensive work?) and the second the same striker given a free header with the 2 centre backs not at home again (more good defensive work?). There is work to be done and changes to be made but I am not convinced that the change has to be in the managerial position alone. OK? I know you will give this some expanded thought. jb

Hi jb. I don't think this is an argument we'll reach a middle ground on. As I'm sure you'll know Ferguson (as did Dundee U) broke the duopoly in Scotland. He also won in Europe. He was a manager of great potential and with a record of success. He punched above his weight. His record warranted time (though he still got lucky to get as much). At the time the division 1 as it was, was a more open field, Pool, Arsenal, Everton, Forest and Villa had all won titles in the decade around. United were a big club in support, but no standout as they are today. Liverpool were on their perch and an absolute power. Today only 3 clubs have won titles on the last decade, and United are (were) the power with City and Chelski. United are also very wealthy despite the Glaziers. You can't compare the 2 managers and the positions they started in, which I think you mistakenly do. Ferguson also had to rebuild the club, youth team up. Moyes in 13 years has won nothing at the top table. Not even a flukey FA cup. In 13 years he has failed to win away at any of the "big 4". That's over 50 attempts. There is nothing in Moyes history that suggests he has the talent. This is the point that i think you continually miss. He's not an up and comer like Rodgers with no serious history, but great potential. He has set his pattern and reached his peak. He got the 7th biggest club to finish around 7th. Ultimately a better manager, of which there are numerous, would do better with what he had available. He is a mid table manager, with a midtable/underdog mentality. It is his job to inspire better performances. Ferguson could. If the players underachieved that is down to him. They are better than they are producing (but not good enough to finish 1 or 2) Bringing in his "own" players changes nothing as he clearly cannot manage big players and egos. Mourinho could, and he was available. I have zero faith that he could even spot the "right" players given the shambles that his tactics produce. Take a bow Fergie (in my best Andy Gray voice). You stuffed up with your successor

Fadida- Typographical error. Should have read 13th in Fergies second season in charge. Sorry . jb

Fadida - As someone I have had discussions with before your comment here is not up to your usual standard.How can you compare a 25 year tenure with an eight month tenure?. When Fergie took over United the team had finished in the top 4 for the previous 5 years.His first season saw them drop to 11th,,second season 16th, third season 6th,fourth season 2nd and a championship in season five. Can you explain that to me for those figures puts Moyes' 7th place after 8 months not so bad. Your mate jb

Inexplicable isnt it? I couldnt believe they went with Moyes given who they could have got. Maybe Mourhinio will come on board next year.. ?? Harry Rednap would have done a better job than Moyes.

I agree. This doesn't for one second hide or excuse the fact that Moyes has had a woeful year. Bottom line is this side, stagnant as it may be, should stil be competing with Liverpool and Arsenal for 4th. Simply a better manager, of which there are many would do this. Mourinho (a manager of United's stature) would have spent Moyes 60 million to address deficiencies and kept them above the likes of Spurs and Everton. Ultimately a quality manager makes a difference (as shown in the Moyes/Ferguson comparison with essentially the same players) As does one who is not up to the necessary level.

Squad aside, surely his gravest error is the appointment of Moyes itself given Mourinho and Guardiola were both potentially attainable.

Great article. Completely agree.

Janek -Prepare yourself for the coming onslaught. I dared to suggest what you have described in detail just last week and am now fed up trying to explain myself to people who appear to have an inside running into the head offices at Old Trafford but who apparently cannot sit and watch a game and assess for themselves how a player, or team ,is performing where it matters,on the field.. Everyone in the backroom staff has been blamed for United's poor form with hints they are "Moyes' men" while apparently ignoring that Phil Neville actually played more games for United (263) than he did for Everton. The fact that another United legend,Ryan Giggs, has also been appointed to a player coach role also seems to escape their attention.I wish you luck Janek. jb