South African exit from Super Rugby inevitable

I say SA has nothing to loose. We should forget about super rugby and concetrate on currie cup. In that way we can show case our talent locally. Our fans loves rugby and would be behind our provinces team. All provinces competes against each other. It will also bring in lot of new talent from other provinces not participating at the moment. We have very good players in SA which is why Aus themselfs are buying players from SA left and right. This change will develop better springboks. Super rugby should be played every two years with five top country being represented by two nations top teams. We can travel international every two years, which will give our springbok players more time to get used to each others play and we can give new zealand a hiding on a world cup stage.

Currently I am on the fence as far as Super Rugby goes. I don't like the expansion talks, I would much rather see a very short Super Rugby comp, so that it doesn't interfere with Currie Cup. But the reality is if we want to grow 14 fully professional teams that are sustainable then we can't be part of Super Rugby as the season will be too long. I am looking at the constant interference and demands from government towards quotas as well. If we have a fourteen team Currie Cup and we have quotas there it won't affect fairplay as all the teams must adhere to it. Whereas in Super Rugby it won't be the case. We can treble lur market in SA if we grow Currie Cup and utilise quotas in a responsible manner. More viewership locally, more revenue, more ticket sales, more supporters can all just be good for our rugby.

Agree wholeheartedly BB. We are moving dangerously close to that by default given the expanding SR format, player fatigue, and the bok extraction over the CC time frame, not to mention mid SR test window. Exactly what no one here wants. Would you then consider leaving sr altogether, or send top CC teams to compete as gazza suggests? I like the idea, but we do then fall back into the trap of our best players being overplayed come test time. The beauty of your suggestion is ticket prices can adjust to the local market, which in my view would generate greater, not lesser, profits as more people would attend. It could assist our ability to pay competitive salaries and match fees, and slow player exodus. Good for the boks, the public, and the players who travel and play less. Rotation policies and centralized contacting becomes easier as you're not pandering to external interests and not paying over a disproportionate amount of cash. Could even start to attract foreign talent a la French top 14, no too many though as it's not great for the national interest, but could become a premier standalone comp. Like it.

Agree Bopchop. For me Currie Cup is vital, not just the fact that it continues, but because of the importance and history it has. COnsider this. We currently have 14 Provinces, then we have 6 Franchises, but realistically they really are just the top 6 provinces. So now we are going to have 6 teams in SUper rugby, but we also have had only 6 teams in Currie Cup Premier division. There is constant criticism towards the ARU that has no lower tier to SUper RUgby that can feed the SUper rugby teams with depth. BUt aren't we getting dangerously close to that same scenario by marginalising Currie Cup whilst growing SUper rugby? If we left SUper Rugby, then we could focus on a process of building a TOP 14 Currie CUp. Start with 8 teams in Premier, as they will this year, then add one team every year there after as Finances allow. Until eventually we have a sustainable 14 team premier division

For what it's worth this saf thinks along the same lines, and completely agrees with this suggestion. Strength vs strength, the travel won't be as hectic, and the countries can preserve or grow their domestic comps, which will be default be one notch below the SANZAR legs, as only the top teams will compete at that level. BUT would it make enough money to keep the administrators in five star accommodation?

They were all reelected last night btw

Agreed

Ron/Pash - SA did not push for more derbies. It just duplicates our CURRIE CUP. THATS WHY attendances are down across the board. Not sure I can exactly remember what we presented but it wasn't the current configuration, that much I can assure you, as even our player welfare is affected, as our derbies tend to be much harder games physically than against Aus or kiwi teams. At least in those games the players are forced to get fitter by running around - in the local derbies they tend to be like those mountain goat fights when they run at each other and straight into each other. First one to fall over loses. An exaggeration maybe, but not much. Our derbies do tend to yield more injuries than games against other teams, for whatever reason. So fewer derbies is what we have been after in the SR context. We wanted the extra team (well, the administrators did). Does that necessitate a conference system? Not necessarily. The increased number of derbies it is well known was the request of Aus to effectively short cut to something of a domestic competition there. That's fact.

Let's not forget that Aus got the force, then jumped the queue with the rebels. We have different competing reasons for wanting additional teams. Yours is to try grow a market that isn't there yet, hence the force's 8 SA players and mickey Arthur joining along with another two or three management or support staff all from SA. Rebels are also a bit patchwork right now. I understand the objective and we will all be better off if this works and grows the game in Oz. In SA we have the other problem. If you watched any of the Kings games last year, most were sold out, and the ones that weren't never attracted fewer than 35,000. We have tournaments, clubs and franchises everywhere, and we obviously have to broaden the opportunity set for players, especially players of colour, so providing high level opportunities for one or two other franchises (we have 11 languages and from a sporting perspective the provinces break into 14). So we probably always will have the wooden spoon somewhere in our ranks, but if it means a substantially bigger revenue pool to be reallocated and part fund the newer Aus clubs, why should their position on the log mean it shouldn't happen? Not sufficient logic there. But, at least in SA, it was understood that after the force we would field another team. No one on this site actually sat in on any of those discussions so let's accept that our views will be colored by local press's reports. The one thing I can tell you is that not many outsid pf PE wanted the kings in, let alone if it meant losing the lions, who have been going through a prolonged period of bottom feeding, as did the Reds for most of 2000 - 2010. The bulls were the wooden spooners in 2001 if memory serves, and became three time champs. So the argument about being at the bottom doesn't hold much sway. If it did, neither the force nor the rebels would have made it past a year or two, and look at them now! Hired a bunch of safs and flying!

Hear hear

Bb it is for SA, yes. As we've never seen the CC as a feeder to SR. so we have the vodacom cup that feeds into the CC, which to date has been a six team affair. But as of this year, the format is changing, with 6 guaranteed teams to include the kings and lions, and two additional spots up for grabs through some knockout games based on the vodacom cup I think. But philosophically we don't view the CC as subjugate to SR, which is why you hear safs complaining about the impact on the CC, which results from too many derbies between the same teams, more or less. I think it's slightly different with the ITM cup, if I understand one or two comments correctly. The elongation of SR also means the boks are involved in the RC during the CC. which dilutes it further. Maybe we need to view the CC differently, but we haven't yet, and thank the boss too, as it would be pretty kak if we structured our domestic comp to suit SR, and then got jettisoned!

Fascinating reading that's for sure, I do get the sense that some Australian supporters do want their cake and eat it too. Some comments about "I just want a comp I can watch in my own time zone" really is a bit narcissistic. Australia is a bit unique in that it has two football codes that it has total control over, purpose built for the Australian public, however 60% of the Australian population was born somewhere else so all Australians need to think outside their own market or just start their own domestic comp and play in the RC. If all three countries stuck to their own comps unfortunately the biggest loser would be the Kiwis. Australian market has the most potential for growth, SA have enough money and the Kiwis will be left with the best product in the smallest marketplace. Best we can hope for is the product being strong enough for other countries to want to watch to get funded by the TV revenue. Personally getting up in the middle of the night to watch sport isn't a problem, it's what sports lovers do ( currently up watching the masters). I think NZ does value its relationship with SA more than some might think, the general concensus seems to be that the ARU are the problem child. Let's see what everyone brings to the table, SA- Money NZ- Product Aus- Potential So if SA keep bringing in the money and NZ enhances the product then at some stage it's only fair to ask the Aussies to fulfill their potential. Problem is they seem to want the other two to try and do it for them.

All this whinging about how the season is too long and Heineken Cup is better...when up in Europe players play 30 high intensity matches per season including a 22 game double round robin. Super rugby is 15 weeks long and NPC and Currie Cup are about 11 weeks. Its shorter in the Southern Hemisphere for most players. All Blacks get managed.

Isn't that the case currently?

Your right I dont care. Super 12 is no more, The currie cup no longer has eight teams. Thats life, things change. Most people move on. Obviously you guys are unable to. There are bigger issues that the game has to face up to at the present time.

It would never work. That comp would be dominated by the Sharks, Stormers and Bulls, with an occasional great season by the Cheetahs, Kings or Lions. The way Rugby is set up in SA is vastly different to NZ and it's 14 team ITM cup or the way the 9 team NPC would work in Aus. The Sharks super side is the Sharks Currie Cup side, and that goes for the Bulls and Stormers as well. The Cheetahs are the only SA team made up of two Currie cup sides.

From what I remember it was SA that asked for the conference system, so they can have a home final every year, regardless of making the top 2 (at the time). Then after that was pushed through by SA (to appease them for not getting the kings in the AUS conference), AUS asked for home and away for home conference. I actually wish they would go to home and away matches for every team in the OTHER conferences and none in their own. We can get our local derby fix through the NRC/NPC/CC. I'm getting really bored with the local games.

What you are proposing is a rehash of the Currie cup. Secondly such a comp would be dominated by SA franchises who would have to compete against NZ's provincial teams. Aus is the issue here, not SA or NZ. Aus has to find salvation from within, not Japan or NZ or by overplaying its hand with SA as it has in the past. SA and NZ have had to both give up a slice of their pie in the past to carry Aus, but that scenario is about to have a very timely demise with the inclusion of Argentina. And that's what all this hoohah is about. It's time for Aus to pull on its big boy booties now and stand on its own two feet because the Argentine market and structures need to be developed. This obviously would mean that Aus gets less cash and that for all intents and purposes means that rugby in Aus as we know it is staring down the barrel of a very big gun financially.

Yeah if only that was true,SA love rugby,playing the Aussies is a delight and never an issue,any nation (seriouse about rugby),its the small details that only came into view after the S12 was destroyed but I take it you dont care like many.

Me too Harry, however I enjoyed it a lot more when there were fewer teams and the Currie Cup still had 8 teams.