Lions will be sizeable step up: Hansen

If superior is measured in terms of test caps, then the 2005 Lions certainly had a truckload of caps, on this tour. And, it was a measure of that experience that convinced everyone that SCW's team would, bring home the bacon. Whereas the ABs team in 2004, was full of players who were either new caps or, had a dozen or so caps, at most. I agree with t-man - SCW's problem and his team's problem was simple in the end - his experienced players didn't step up when the ABs stepped up. IMO, SCW stuck to a game-plan that was successful 2yrs earlier and, he didn't do his homework otherwise he would've noticed the 2004 ABvFrance match and how the ABs totally dismantled that french side, to the tune of 6tries to none with DC, providing the rest of the points. Exactly the same thing happened to the Lions in 2005 and DC once again, doing the same damage. The key difference IMO - the ABs repeated their game plan approx 8mths after France whereas the Lions, were looking at a plan that was approx, 2yrs old and the weather conditions in this series, made no difference, whatsoever. I'd suggest, EJ is still searching for a game-plan with his ENG side and if he relies on this WB series, as being the basis of any potential 2017 Lions plan, then I don't think Cheika or the WBs, gave him enough ammunition, to resolve his search. Personally, I don't think EJ will have a Lions game-plan prepared in time and thus, he would be heavily reliant upon those plans, he used against the WBs. Hence why I think, EJ will not rethink his current position and Gatland, will tour next year as the Lions coach. Anyway, just my thoughts......

Yes absolutely agree the signs were there. We also dealt to England earlier in 2004 as well but prior to the tour there was an overwhelming cloud hanging over us that the Lions were coming to wipe us off the floor, in hindsight much of that coming, as usual, from the hyper active and unknowledgeable UK media. The lead up to that series was immense and if Eddies lot continue their winning way, and he gets the gig, so will it be next year. But the sheer hiding the Lions took in 2005, hardly competitive in any single test confirms for me that they have no idea what faces them here, and until they ACTUALLY get results, that will always be the case. And I'd suggest the ABs, despite the departure of 800 test caps, will be way too strong again, especially after these new players get a full RC/ BC and EOYT under their belt. And I dont buy the past their used by date thing. Look how many players we had last year in that category. They still got up and performed. Theres a difference between not being good enough anymore and not putting in the work. The side was obviously overhyped and under prepared for what hit them.

There is all that,but the game v France on the 2004 EOYT confirmed to me where this team was heading.You could see with the offloading game the ABs employed v the frogs that this team had the potential to develop into something special.Added to that was Lord Bald's loyalty to a hard core of his England players,who were well past their use-by date and the rest is history.

Prior to the tour the Lions were considered stronger. NZ had a poor World cup in 2003, a new coach in 2004, came last in the 3N in 2004 after losing to both Oz and were hammered by the Boks in JBurg. They also nearly lost to Wales in the EOYT. Carter and McCaw were still cutting their teeth as ABs. "For Lions coach Clive Woodward, the selection of eight members of his 2003 England Rugby World Cup team in this starting XV – All week, the expectation had been these Lions would shackle the All Blacks attacking prowess via a dour forward struggle - a fact the skies opening up over Christchurch this afternoon seemed to endorse. It didn't happen. " The rest is history. On paper they were stronger. The fact that our players grew in stature during the series is another thing.

Id say ignorance, on your part. Theres a reason the NH sides lose most of their matches this way. The players you have named are why. If you think that Hogg is one of the worlds leading fullbacks then you'd be kidding yourself. He'd be well behind Folau, Smith, Le Roux, Dagg, Milner skudder for a start. Ive watched a lot of Hogg and he's nothing special bar the odd individual run from deep, something all thoise Ive named do plenty of. Farrell has played his career at 10. He is a good defender, great goalkicker but a poor attacker and playmaker. Thats why he moved Farrell out for Ford because Ford offers more options on attack, more flair. They could do that in the 6N because the opposition doesnt apply anything like the pressure the ABs do. Same with the Oz series. Oz simply didnt have the ability to apply the required pressure. If they played Ford and Farrell in the same backline the Abs would have Farrell for breakfast, as they have done in the last 5 matches. Anyway, you rate them I dont. The results favour my argument. So far.

Sorry tman,on paper I reckon the 2005 ABs were at the very least the equal of that Lions team.Where exactly,on paper,were they superior?

Timbo,I was referring to the home unions when I said the northern hemisphere.And I don't mean it in an arrogant way.Put it this way,if England were to win the 2019 RWC,everyone would be targeting them.The same principle applies with the ABs - everyone wants to bring down the top dog,it is competitive sport after all. I also agree it is unlikely EJ would take the Lions job,I just suggested it may need someone of his acumen to achieve victory here.It is whether Eddie or the RFU would be willing to take the time away from his England job - highly unlikely I admit. As an aside,it was never a dig at the NH,just an observation as an AB fan.

I dont think the pressure will be on the Lions because NZ will be expected to win, not the Lions. Do you seriously think the media pressure was on the Lions when they were in Aus? The Lions nations press and the Aus press were all ganging up on the Wallabies.

"The NH do" Well actually everyone does and to describe them as "average Joes" is a fair indication that this discussion isnt really worth having tbh. You seem to think of everything in terms of hemispheres and the superiority of the SH is something you seem to try and defend at every turn. You describe Eddie jones not as an Australian but as a SH coach, as if we are not individual nations. Hes Australian and has as much to do with NZ as Lancaster did. Hogg was the player if the 6 nations and not average at any level. Why do people describe the very best the game has to offer as "average". Farrell is an excellent player and world class. Probably the best goal kicker in world rugby right now. And Farrell cant run a backline and thats why Ford was picked? Thats like saying B.Smith isnt a good fullback and thats why Daggs playing. But although pretty much everyone who knows anything about rugby in rugby circles rates those guys highly I can be assured that because they come from the NH you wont rate them. Thank god Hansen knows better. Do you think describing the best player in the 6 nats as "good for a run or two, nothing more" adds cred or completely strips you of any? Jones picked Farrell and Ford for the 6 nats. Farrell started every game. Arrogance or ignorance?

That's the trouble. It's not played on paper. Hogg, Farrell I don't rate highly...the NH do but they're average Joes at this level. Farrells been around for years and can't run a backline which is why Jones ran Ford in the 6N instead and Hogg is good for a run or two, nothing more. The rest are'promising' but nowhere near the class I meant. Sexton and North are probably the best In the NH. Vunipola could be. But it's not even the player quality that will cost them the tour so much as the pressure of expectation, something that hit the English at last years World Cup. They'll send a massive fan club out and an even bigger media contingent and report home anything that moves. between them all they'll all manage to hit the self destruct button while the ABs apply layer upon layer of pressure while they do. Just my opinion...?

Those legends you talk about are playing now. Its just that they are not known as such yet. Itoje, Nel, Hogg, North, Jones, Sexton, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Vunipola and a few others are world class. It will be the 2nd best team in the world on paper at least.

You sound like all those Ausies giving England no chance because of this or that right before Eng won 3-0. Mentioning games from 50 years ago may give you some comfort but I dont think it has anything whatsoever to do with this series and it doesnt give me a false sense of security that it appears to give you. NZ will be excellent, imo the best theyve ever been and as it stands I expect NZ to win but not for the reasons you give. I also expect the Lions to be better and coached by either Cotter or Schmidt. It should be a great series. At a long distance guess... 1 Vunipola 2 Hartley (c) 3 Nel 4 Itoje 5 Jones 6 Robshaw 7 O'Brien 8 Vunipola 9 Murray 10 Sexton 11 Watson 12 Farrell 13 Joseph 14 North 15 Hogg

Well that makes sense Timbo. Why would they care. Most know they're going to lose again. You know what happens after every Lions tour? The question of why they bother coming is always asked. It's actually a fascinating exercise. There's so much buildup...then so much disappointment. Eddie Jones might be able to do something about that perhaps. But 2019? Don't think Eddie will last that long. Look how quickly the Wallaby fans have turned on one of their own coaches. How quickly do you think England will do the same to an outsider. Just like that.... Kobayashi ...click of the fingers....He'll be gone...

Yes timbo, heard it all before, same old arguments same old results, same old 'we'll be competitive next time'. Been hearing that for thirty years. The provincial games never helped them in the past and it's now one test in 12 since 77 that they've won. Seen nothing that suggests that will change. Sure they might be competitive but until they are...same old. To date they have been massively disappointing. No doubt your comment of support will resonate ten thousand times before they get here but your own fans, media, players, coaching setup etc will serve to help them self destruct on their own.

'I think we in NZ don’t appreciate just how much the northern hemisphere would love to see the ABs beaten…… even if it means Jones taking his eye off the England gig for a while.' Interesting, Richard, because I've got the exact opposite take. I don't think people in the SH, particularly NZ, realize just how little many people in the NH care about the Lions 'knocking off the ABs'. Do you think the French, Italians etc care? The RFU cares about England. Where is the pressure on Eddie going to come from? Certainly, not England fans, or Welsh, Scottish or Irish fans. We've ruled out pressure from his employers so who does that leave? The Lion's committee? British and Irish fans will want to see the Lions win, and there'll be a great build-up, but they're not going to put that above the interests of their own country. I'm afraid this idea that NH fans lie awake every night dreaming of someone, anyone, 'knocking the ABs of their perch' is a bit of a parochial NZ thing. They might dream of their own national team doing it, but do you think the Welsh will be cheering for the English November 2017 at Twickenham? The only pressure on Eddie will come from his own ego. I think, though, he believes he's got a chance by 2019 to make England number 1 and win the RWC. Think of his joy at being able to raise his middle finger to the ARU if he pulls that off. My guess is that's a bigger attraction for him than a Lions' tour.

Errr, no.

Not sure about all that, Tman. Certainly, the players you name from the '71 and '74 tours are legends. But, mostly they're legends because of the '71 and '74 tours. None of them were legends going into the '71 tour. Don't agree with the 2005 comparison. Johnson retired from all rugby in 2003, and Back and Dallaglio came out of international retirement for the Lion's tour. Hill was right at the end of his career and coming off injury, and Wilkinson had been injured pretty much for the entire post 2003 RWC period. All those legends were well over the hill, or coming off serious injury. It was a poorly selected squad. Doesn't mean a better selected squad would have done any better, but those players were shadows of the players they'd been 2 years earlier. They might have been better than the players coming out next year in their prime, but not how they were in 2005. I think the Lions will be very competitive in 2017. Certainly, integration and familiarity will be a problem, as always. But, that's why they've agreed to the provincial games. You can handle that schedule with a big squad. The 2005 tour was very divided mostly because there was recognition that many of the England RWC players didn't deserve selection, and were being picked on past deeds not where they were at the time. Gatland might repeat that mistake by selecting too many Welsh players (particularly if England win the next 6 Nations as well), but I don't think he will.

Yeah while the names are great on paper the experience I've seen of getting them to gel is alarmingly poor. Remember how the Lions would typically go through beating province after province then bang, get the ABs together...the sum of the better parts and down the Lions would go. And 71 and 77 particularly weren't very good AB sides. Even 2005 head to head the Lions on paper were superior at the time.

And that's it TM. For all the reasons you've mentioned above as to why the Lions, have only succeeded once, in its history, in NZ. Only EJ will know what limitations, if any, that may be tied to next year's tour and whether such an undertaking, will provide him, with success. I suggest he doesn't suffer fools and to that end, he will look at the numbers and if, those numbers aren't in his favour, does he risk his present status as "Saviour of ENG rugby" and everything he has been pursuing with this team, just to find out if his own ballast, can support the weight of all the Home Unions.......because if it doesn't, then he won't be walking on water mate. More to the point, he will be swimming in it trying to prevent himself and his English dreams, from sinking if next year's tour, goes the same way as Woodward's supposedly, unlosable 2005 tour. We've heard it all before - best Lions selection, players from winning 6N teams, experienced & hardened after the 6N and now ready, to perform down under against a depleted AB team. I think you're right mate as to why, all but one Lions team, have not succeeded?? In the end, the numbers, just didn't add up and I think, EJ is too smart, to not see that.

Really? I don't think there are any limits to what Eddie will do in rugby. He could do a Lions series in NZ then win the World Cup. That's gotta be tempting him in his current frame of mind...the walking on water one I mean.?