Ranking Rugby Union's 395 greatest players

If anything, South Africa are probably over-represented in the professional era in my list - especially when you consider they were the most successful team of the amateur era. The problem South Africa has is that they're so isolated. New Zealand could beat Australia regularly. The UK sides could play each other often enough. But a tour to South Africa was rare. Most NZ greats only got to play there once!

When the Roar's indulgence, let's add an updated 43 players: FRANCE 1. Christian Califano / Pascal Ondarts 2. Raphael Ibanez / Daniel Dubroca / Philippe Dintrans 3. Robert Paparemborde / Jean-Pierre Gauret / Jean Iracabal 4. Lucien Mias / Alain Lorieux 5. Benoit Dauga / Michel Celaya 6. Abdelatif Bennazi / Michael Crauste / Serge Betsen 7. Jean-Pierre Rives / Jean-Claude Skrela / Thierry Dusautoir / Éric Champ / Olivier Magne 8. Walter Spanghero / Laurent Rodriguez / Imaol Harinodoquy / Marc Cécillon 9. Jerome Gallion / Fabien Galthié / Jaques Foroux / Pierre Berbizier 10. Pierre Albaladejo / Didier Camberabero / Christophe Lamaison / Thierry Lacroix 11. Emile N’Tamack / Christophe Dominici 12. Jo Maso / Didier Codroniou / Dennis Charvet / Yannick Jouzion 13. Philippe Sella 14. Patrice Lasiquet / Philippe Georges Saint-André 15. Serge Blanco / Pierre Villepreux

I don't think I have favoured pre-professional players. From the Australian professional era ('96 onward) I've included: Gregan Roff Tune Burke Horan Little Herbert Moore Robinson Sharpe Pocock Giteau Mortlock Latham Larkham Ashley-Cooper Owen Finegan Matt Cockbain Toutei Kefu. There are only 15 positions in a rugby union side, and if you are called a "great" then you will have fulled that position for a couple of years. It's impossible to make a top 100 just focusing on 20 years of professionalism, especially when players like Gregan held their spot for 14 years! If anything, the 1950s and 1970s are probably under-represented in my list. But they were such dire times for Australian rugby. Pre-war players like Eddie Bonis didn't make my list either.

Why is mostly that the pre professional players are being favoured Frank O'Keeffe? Are the players from the last twenty years not making the grade?

Aaaaaaand I meant to say "Pierre Berbizier" - the halfback who snobbed Nick Farr-Jones in 1990, not "Pierre Villepreux."

Ooops, I mentioned Villepreux twice - at halfback and fullback. He was a fullback. I also mis-spelled Jacques Fouroux...

FRANCE 1. Christian Califano / Pascal Ondarts 2. Raphael Ibanez / Daniel Dubroca / Philippe Dintrans 3. Robert Paparemborde / Jean-Pierre Gauret / Jean Iracabal 4. Lucien Mias / Alain Lorieux 5. Benoit Dauga / Michel Celaya 6. Abdelatif Bennazi / Michael Crauste 7. Jean-Pierre Rives / Jean-Claude Skrela / Thierry Dusautoir / Éric Champ / Olivier Magne 8. Walter Spanghero / Laurent Rodriguez / Marc Cécillon 9. Jerome Gallion / Fabien Galthié / Jaques Foroux / Pierre Villepreux 10. Didier Camberabero / Christophe Lamaison / Thierry Lacroix 11. Emile N’Tamack / Christophe Dominici 12. Jo Maso / Didier Codorniou / Dennis Charvet / Yannick Jouzion 13. Philippe Sella 14. Patrice Lasiquet 15. Serge Blanco / Pierre Villepreux

I don't know if anybody is still reading this thread. But I really regret not putting John Solomon in there for Australia. In hindsight I could have done a better job. I could have put Eddie Bonis in there instead of Jeremy Paul. John Solomon should be in there, preferably on the wing. For South Africa, I should put Errol Tobias and Hennie le Roux in there. For New Zealand... yeah Retallick should be in there as well. Here's a top 51 English players that I've updated: ENGLAND 1. Fran Cotton / Jason Leonard 2. Peter Wheeler / John Pullin / Brian Moore / Eric Evans / Steve Thompson 3. Phil Vickery/ Jeff Probyn 4. Martin Johnson / Simon Shaw / Wade Dooley / Ben Kay 5. Paul Ackford / Bill Beaumont / Danny Grewcock 6. Richard Hill / Roger Uttley / Mike Teague / Mickie Skinner / 7. Peter Winterbottom / Neil Back 8. Lawrence Dallaglio / Dean Richards / Wavell Wakefield / Andy Ripley 9. Dickie Jeeps / Matt Dawson / Nigel Melville 10. Jonny Wilkinson / Rob Andrew / Richard Sharp / Stuart Barnes / Toby Flood / Bev Risman 11. David Duckham / Alexander Obolensky / Austin Healey 12. Will Greenwood/ Mike Cait / Will Carling 13. Jeff Butterfield / Jeremy Guscott / Josh Lewsey 14. Rory Underwood / Peter Jackson / Mike Slemen 15. Jason Robinson / Dusty Hare / Iain Balshaw / John Willcox

Saxton was a legend in his time Muzz', I never saw him play, but go through most of the rugby Bibles of the day and he features in those regularly. I can vaguely remember the NZ Kiwi team playing, ~ too young mate but I remember and saw/watched the 1950s Lions as I was the magnificent age of 12 years old and from thence to now! Seen a lot of rugby when I think back!

Inga Tuigamala also.

Oops!! I forgot that wicked try old JK scored against Italy but the Queensland one was something else with it!

My thoughts entirely taylorman! Tremain also in my opinion was a better loosie than Kirkpatrick although Kirky' was a very good player but they were of an era of truly wonderful loose forwards no doubt about it, a real joy to see Waka and Kel Tremain working in tandem. A good exercise I reckon would be to look at all the loose forwards that played for the All Blacks from about 1950 to the present. There's no doubt the Kiwis have been spoiled for loose forward talent for a lot of years and it's still ongoing, in fact it seems as if the preferred choice happens to get injured or whatever in a game another runs on pretty much of the same calibre. Steve Pokere, jeez I'd forgotten about him, wonderful player as was Frano Botica someone mentioned him here, but didn't old Frano' go to League? not sure.

Yep Shane and I daresay you'd know better that me, but old Foxy' dictated the game as a real General and rarely had a bad game, ace goal kicker but never scored a Test try, (he did once but it was disallowed). He'd go into any team if I was picking it, for sure!

A lot of people go on about the brilliant Michael Jones, ~ He was for sure an awesome talent at Number 7 but as you say Sheek he was extremely injury prone and as you also mentioned, he wouldn't play on Sundays and certain other days because of Faith related issues. At the time and on any day when it mattered, he was without doubt the best around, great to watch! I rate McCaw above him in all round brilliance and in fact I rate McCaw as the best rugby player I've ever seen, no question. Williams and Kirwan weren't even close, Bryan Williams was a good Journeyman winger, never overly quick but a very dangerous runner scoring some top tries. Johm Kirwan on the other hand was a real speedster and scored some awesome tries over his whole career and he scored the best try I've ever seen in a any match playing for Auckland against Queensland in 1987 when he got the ball and ran virtually the full length of the field sidestepping and weaving left foot, right foot and had nary a hand placed on him to score, I don't remember seeing a better try! Kirwan was the top International try scorer for a period of time, late 80s, early 90s. He was in the day a very, very good Winger, ~ pity it didn't translate to Coaching!

Where are the modern players ? Was it a better game pre professional?

1. Ken Gray / Sir Wilson Whineray / Steve McDowell / Tony Woodcock / Johnny Simpson / CRAIG DOWD - You spelled Richard Loe wrong

Well Ruck, that's your opinion of Mains, mine is knowing the man. If anything, did he not do a pretty good job of taking the AB's to the 95 RWC final, in Jo'burg? At that particular time of his coaching career Mains formed a more than useful squad, even though he had the likes of a disgruntled John Hart, whinging at darn near everything he was doing. As we all know, how Hart's tenure, finished up. Honestly, I have never heard a crowd, serve it up to anyone, as bad as they did Hart, when his horse won the NZ Free for All, at Addington. He was virtually booed off the course. Along with Kirwan, I am not judging, him on his coaching ability, It's what I've seen over the years, & Batt's at best, was a very good winger, & in my opinion, both, he & Jonah, are would be on top or thereabouts, in my picking order. Another one for one of the best props, would have to be Ken Gray.

Duane Monkley vs any one else Mains could put in there

I think with the #8's they all brought different skills to the game. Buck was a trenches man, taking up through sheer bludy mindedness. He led by picking up his troops and carrying them over the line. Zinzan started out as quite a wide ranging player in the mold of a MJ's. However, he learn't more skills and became the same hard driving forward as Buck. What he lacked though was the leadership Buck had. Which would mean we'd probably have to go for Sir Brian Lochore. He had the game of Zinny and the captaincy of Buck. How dare you put anyone in front of the great Sir John Kirwan? Don't judge him on his coaching :-o. Good front row though.

Zinny 9/10. Arran Pene 3/10. Slightly better than Randell in that he could at least reach the gain line. Zinny was on the bench because Mains had an anti Auckland streak and a massive Otago bias. That's why so many ridiculously useless players became AB's during his tenure. Paul Henderson, Mike Brewer, Aaron Pene, Stephen Bachop, just to name a few.