LeBron James: Greatness taken for granted

Swampy, 'the cavs team today' could mean several different things. I'd take it as 'the players on the current roster,' as I thought we'd be comparing the whole season, not one game. Why would we talk about one game during the regular season?

Keep up with things keyboard warrior - first sentence was 'if you look at the Cavs team today' eg - the lineup vs Miami. Lebron and Kyrie rested, love and smith injured. The rest of squad not so good.

What facts am I misinterpreting or claiming as facts that aren't facts? I like how you continue to put words in my mouth and are trying to start a fight for some reason. Nobody's back peddling, except maybe you. Not sure what you're getting at. It's too bad you have to resort to belittling others or where my 'arrogance' is coming from. You might want to re-read what I've said. Again, I don't buy into the best player on best team is MVP theory, which you seem to keep implying I do. But, when nobody stands out, whoever this player is often will win, just the way it is. I don't see anyone who exactly stands out for 2011. And if it's between James and Rose only, I'd give the slight nod to Rose, which most of the voters did as well. I don't know where Chris Paul came from? Kobe and James were highly regarded as the best players in the game in 2011 still, but when one of them leads an underachieving team(James), it's going to be hard for him to win. James had an amazing cast and still couldn't finish #1 in the East. This really isn't that hard of a concept to understand. You don't have to agree, that's fine. And again, I would've given it to Kobe, not Rose.

I have a condescending tone because it is the only way I can address your factually bereft approach which only serves to make the world less informed with every post you make. I like how you back peddle away from the ridiculous parts around mvp voting etc like dion sanders in full flight. Yes I mentioned rose and then you defended it. Clearly you do buy it as that is the only argument for rose. His on court off court per possession was close to zero. Literally no scoreboard different if he was playing or not. If you go with rose (and given your inability to recognise actual facts I'm going to be a wee bit skeptical on your ability to speak for "most" when it's been a ridiculed pick by many, I coukdn'the say most as I lack your arrogance to speak for the gpentire basketball watching population) then where is the non best player best team analysis to support. Oh that's right you don't do supporting analysis

Don't understand your first paragraph. And you have quite a condescending tone. I don't buy the best player on best team is MVP theory, not sure where you're getting your info. You brought up Rose, not me. If James was so much better for regular season, then he should've led his team to more wins playing alongside 2 other AS in their primes, a luxury Rose didn't have. Not sure who I'd give MVP to that year, but I have a hard time giving it to James over Rose. Probably Kobe. Howard certainly wasn't better than James or Kobe. MIA underachieved during 2011 regular season. Rose played like a true superstar for the season, too. If it's between just those, I have to go with Rose as most would, too.

Exactly Mushi. The way most people talk about Paul is that he much better than what I think he is, which doesn't add up given all his early playoff exits. He's a perennial AS when healthy, which isn't a given, haven't said otherwise. But, you and his backers have a lot of explaining to do why he's never gotten past the 2nd round, which you haven't even attempted to yet.

Um the MVP is voted on for this regular season. So waiting for future play off results because of your (in my view poorly informed) view of past ones is utter nonsense. As for the Rose MVP, probably Howard, James would have been more deserving than Rose though. He'll I'd take the previously mentioned Paul over him as he was way more efficient offensively and miles ahead on D. The best player best team short cut analysis is a snap shot of your tendency for lazy views and lack of thought. Rose had a break out year but that Chicago team's differentiating factor was the bench performance. Their starters had middling play off team results but that required more than just looking at the standings.

Hold on so there is literally nothing special about the game of a player you say (in damning fashion) is firmly entrenched in the top 10-15 players and occasionally in the (again damningly phrased) top 5. I could continue to pull apart the rest of the logic but honestly you've done the job of discrediting yourself so well I could only detract from it.

Mushi, I remained unimpressed. Do something in the playoffs, Paul, that's all I ask. He has played with 2 other AS-caliber players and a former nba-winning coach. Enough excuses. Having some good advanced stats, yawn. Butler's maybe a top 10 player, but certainly not top 5. This year his cast is down, but last year it was still decent, and CHI stunk. Rose was maybe a weak MVP pick, but there's been worse picks in the past 15 years. Who you gonna give it to in 2011 then? CHI was the top team in the regular season. Rose played with no other AS. There were other better players that year than Rose probably, but not many. He was still a top 5 player probably. If you think James, you have a lot of explaining with why his team underachieved during the regular season.

Mushi, I find it ironic that you and others think Paul is so special. He's had solid teammates around him for most of his career, and still hasn't made it out of the 2nd round. It's the same question I ask Nash fans. Nash had great teammates, usually 2 other AS alongside him, and he never made one Finals. My thoughts on Paul is that he's been a top PG for most of his career, often an elite PG, possibly a fringe top 5 player 1-2 years, but usually in the top 10-15 range somewhere. He's never come close to Kobe, James, or KD level. He's usually overrated by most people. He wears down towards the end of seasons often, probably primarily since he's a tiny player. He has gotten the job down in the playoffs. If you think losing in the 1st or 2nd round justifies his elite status, fine, but I don't.

Right Mushi, those are good arguments. OKC doesn't seem built very well around RW, and their depth/talent level is much worse than James has in CLE. James pretty much has everything he wants in CLE, and they're still only the 4th best team in the NBA, and in the weaker conference. I'm not sure between James and RW who'd I take for the playoffs, but RW has been the better player so far through the regular season. But, I don't know where this selfishness stuff comes from. RW is a PG who dishes lots of assists, but he's also an elite scorer. If his selfishness was such a detriment to OKC, his coaches would play him less and/or repeatedly tell him to pass more, which isn't the case. Do people really think he's only playing for himself and doesn't care much about wins/losses? Nobody in the NBA plays harder than he does. He was the only player in the AS game even playing half speed, too. Too bad the game was rigged for Davis to get MVP, or else RW wouldn't won it for a 3rd straight time. Especially this season, OKC would be completely lost if RW is going off every game. Look what happens to OKC when RW is hurt for any stretch of time. They miss the playoffs in 2015, and look awful losing in the 2nd round in 2013. Sure, OKC struggled more when KD was hurt, but it goes both ways. RW realizes he needs his teammates, but they're inconsistent, you can only put up with so much of this if they're struggling. It's not about # of FGAs, it's about him staying aggressive. As long as he's aggressive, his teammates have a chance. He might miss every layup he shoots, but if he drives strong and draws 3 defenders, the odds are in OKC's favor to get the offensive rebound and have an easy look.

I do find it ironic that express asks people to watch games closer but can't find anything special about Chris Paul despite numbers and tape...

Paul is the best player on that team. If you need an explanation of "what is so special" then maybe wiki basketball and start from there. He leads the league in real plus minus, plays positive D despite his height (unlike some you've lauded...) and is on the leaderboard in every major advanced catch all stat On Butler his supporting cast has been horrible. This year's in particular has been a terrible mismatch of players and roles. You seem completely incapable of understanding that individual does not equal team. You probably think Rose was a deserving MVP

Butler's definitely a good player, but look at his track record since he's become a star player in 2015. It's not very good with what he's had to work with. CHI has underachieved, and didn't even make the playoffs last year. He's clearly not an MVP candidate. And what's so special about Paul? He is't even the best player on his team anymore. LAC is headed to another 1st or 2nd round exit this year.

I think it's a bit of no one is a clear favourite at the moment. I think you can point to LeBron, Harden, Westbrook, Paul (if he plays the rest of the seasona t the level he palyed the start), Kwahi (not "as" good on the defensive end this year but ahd made up for it offensively), Durant (clear that the real +/- on his defence was um real) and make a credible case at this point in the season If someone wanted to cast their vote for Jimmy Butler it wouldn't be a travesty. He's doing as much to keep the Bulls afloat as Russ is the thunder and quitely I'd take the Thunder's roster sans Russ over the Bulls sans Jimmy.

Wait a mintue Swampy you were all Kyrie Irving is the man a month ago?

Forecasting is the best guide we have but it is fraught with danger, I work with "smart people" forecasting every day and the smartest ones will tell you that the most likely outcome is they are wrong, but less wrong than others. And here you are doing an on the fly forecast with little evidence of the “smart people” analysis to support your finding. Sure take any player and replace him with Carroll and then compare them to a player replaced with Collison and the collision replacement probably wins because one is positive real and box plus minus whilst the other is not. I think we’ve got a problem where you think every bit of his counting stats production is in spite of his “bad” team mates when it is partially because of them. I always struggle with the replace the players thing because the teams have been built with those players in mind. Say we do a similar exercise where you switch LeBron and Westbrook. I’d imagine that OKC would chase different players than when they had Russ and I do believe they’d be in a similar to slightly better off situation based on their performances this season. But it’s marginal. To be clear I love Russ. I am a thunder fan who actually saw that the Harden trade (based on information they had at the time) was a choice between Harden or Russ for an owner that didn’t want to pay the luxury tax. Sure I’d rather Clay have been willing to consider paying the tax but if that was off the table then I was “happy” they went with Russ over Harden. I’ve also defended Russ countless times for his selfishness and he should have been trade stuff. But….I don’t think he’s a lay down for MVP hell with what 20 games to still play I don't even have a favourite for MVP at this point

Simon, it's too bad this anti-RW storyline is still continuing. The same ridiculous storyline happened with Kobe, too. Sure, RW might push another teammate away to grab a rebound at times, so what? And as you eluded, it's actually better for OKC that RW gets rebounds as he can start fastbreaks. How is he not making his teammates better? This is the most subjective question to ask and makes no sense. It's easy to say when a guy like Harden or Paul makes their teammates better when their teammates are actually good and can hit shots. And for what's worth, Paul has had at least 1 other AS teammate for most of his career, and has never made it to the CF once, just how much is he making his teammates better? RW has been a major player on 4 WCF teams, and he played better than KD last playoffs for sure. Should he keep passing to guys like Adams and Roberson when they can't hit a shot to save their lives? You do realize OKC is a terrible shooting team and the worst 3-pt shooting team in the league, right? They have some nice pieces, but there isn't a player in the league who would be doing better with OKC this season than RW has. The most amazing thing about RW is that he's averaging 10apg with a below-average offensive team around him. Is that really selfish? OKC will probably lose in the 1st round, so what? Look at their cast, the game isn't played 1on1. Right now, they're going to face a historically great SA team. Of course, OKC will probably lose to them. That hardly proves he isn't the MVP, similar to Kobe in 2006-07. Faulty analysis, too bad. You might want to check OKC's record when RW goes for triple-doubles. There's a strong a correlation there. RW is doing everything his team needs him to do. They need him to dominate the ball, especially when Kanter/Oladipo are injured. Which player(s) aren't RW trusting? And the other question is why does he trust them as much as he does when they stink it up? Adams is a having career year. Oladipo has the ball less than ever this season, and his #'s are right there as his previous years. Roberson gets 2 more FGA/game than last year, and is wide open all game long, and still only shoots .261 from 3. Kanter is getting more FGA/MP this year than ever before. Every key player on OKC is getting plenty of chances of succeed. You might want to watch their games a bit closer.

Swampy, are you actually serious? Irving and Love are AS, and Irving played like an MVP in the Finals last year. HOU really wouldn't want them? No doubt James is better than Irving/Love, but Irving/Love also had garbage casts before 2015. You're comparing apples to oranges. And that's not really the point since I'm not comparing Harden to Irving/Love leading a team. Irving/Love are support players in CLE. They're young guys in their primes and AS-caliber players. James has 2 such guys while Harden doesn't have anyone remotely close to either one of them. After that, CLE's cast is constructed very well around James. You also don't think HOU would want Korver/Smith's shooting? How many backup PGs are as good as Deron Williams, who's no longer an AS but still a solid player. CLE can go at least 10 deep, which very few teams can, probably a little deeper than HOU, but roughly the same. However, the big difference is each team's talent level, especially for the top 3-4 players. CLE is much better here compared to HOU. Some teams have talent, some have depth, but very few have both. CLE, GS, and SA are the only teams that have both.