List management the coach-killer at Collingwood

Cameron Rose Columnist

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    Nathan Buckley’s position as coach of the Collingwood Football Club has been one of the biggest stories in football since before he even had the job.

    After a stellar playing career, Buckley was Collingwood’s (and Eddie McGuire’s) favourite son and widely accepted as having one of the finest football minds in the game.

    He was to be a sought after senior coach thanks to his outstanding pedigree, high character, and impressive public communications.

    In essence, McGuire was terrified that Buckley would be lost to the Magpies. He thus manufactured an agreement that would see Buckley take over as senior coach from Mick Malthouse at the end of the 2011 season, after a couple of years as an assistant.

    The fall from grace since has been slow, but remarkably steady. From taking over a grand final side that was the 11th oldest list in the competition in 2011 and full of potential, Buckley has led Collingwood to a series of seasons where each year’s win tally has been lower than the last – 17, 14, 11, 10, 9.

    They have won five games in 2017, and are long odds to go higher than 2016’s figure. It has been an inexorable decline.

    Here’s the thing about the Magpies in Buckley’s time in charge – they’ve drafted too many average players, and more than that, they’ve actively sought average players from other clubs. Hence, they are mired in mediocrity.

    Let’s look back in a year-by-year breakdown of who has walked in the door.

    Year 1 – 2012
    Collingwood gave up their first pick to GWS to get access to Jamie Elliott and welcome Marty Clarke back to the club after a return to his native Ireland. They also brought in Jackson Paine, Corey Gault, Jarrod Witts and Peter Yagmoor.

    Clarke, Gault and Yagmoor were complete busts.

    Witts is showing the type of honest ruckman that he is up at the Gold Coast, but he could never establish himself at the Pies with Brodie Grundy a young star. Witts’ exit gave Collingwood the draft picks they needed to secure father-sons Callum Brown and Josh Daicos, so that looks like a win-win.

    Paine was no good, and couldn’t even provide any value when traded out for Patrick Karnezis, who was a dud as well.

    Elliott is a dead-set gun, and is one of Collingwood’s most important few players. Still, he is only one lonely tick from the first draft class of Buckley’s reign. It was the only year the Pies didn’t bring in players from other clubs.

    Brodie Grundy of the Magpies (left) and Matthew Boyd of the Bulldogs contest

    Year 2 – 2013
    Collingwood were loaded going into the 2012 draft. Three top 20 selections after a top-four finish meant both the present and the future looked incredibly bright.

    Brodie Grundy, Ben Kennedy and Tim Broomhead were taken with the Pies’ trio of picks at 18, 19 and 20. Grundy is a clear win, having become one of the best ruckmen in the competition.

    Kennedy has gone from fringe player at the Pies to a non-event at Melbourne, but his departure at the end of 2015 saw Jeremy Howe acquired, so that draft pick was an ultimate success. Broomhead is yet to establish himself after five years on the list.

    Jackson Ramsey was drafted at pick 38, and has played in Round 1 three times for Collingwood, and is thus clearly rated internally. But he has only played 17 games in five years and has already been dropped four times this season, so his career looks at the crossroads.

    Marley Williams has been and gone, with nothing in return. Quinten Lynch, Clinton Young and Jordan Russell were brought in from other clubs. None served with any distinction, and all are now gone. What was the point?

    Year 3 – 2014
    Collingwood were sliding down the ladder, but the premium picks kept on coming, with two top 10 selections in the 2013 draft.

    Matthew Scharenberg was taken at pick six and has played eight games in his four seasons, having been cursed by injuries. He still looks likely to make the grade if his body can hold up. Nathan Freeman was taken at pick 10, and has since gone to St Kilda, but is yet to play a senior game.

    To get eight games out of a possible 162 from two top ten draft picks is a huge blow.

    There was a huge influx of players outside of these high draft picks. Tom Langdon and Jonathon Marsh were taken late. Langdon reads the play well, and has also been injured after a bright start to his career, but has question marks over his decision-making and skill with ball in hand. Marsh is no longer at the club.

    Four recycled players came to the Pies – Taylor Adams, Jesse White, Patrick Karnezis and Tony Armstrong. It’s not an illustrious list.

    Adams is a bit of a symbol for Collingwood’s time under Buckley – an absolute work horse who gives his all, but whose kicking continues to let him and his side down.

    White has long been a whipping boy, and it seems his cards have been marked. Karnezis and Armstrong are gone.

    Dayne Beams with possession for Brisbane Lions

    Year 4 – 2015
    Another year. Another draft of multiple first round picks. Another two selections in the top ten.

    Admittedly, one of them was compensation for losing Dayne Beams, one of the elite players in the competition, and just as importantly a highly skilled user of the ball, which the football world were beginning to realise the Pies had in short supply. Unfortunately, the Collingwood football department did not.

    Jordan De Goey was taken at pick five, and Darcy Moore was a father-son selection at pick nine. Both look like they’ll spend a decade or more at the Pies, and can be considered wins.

    Brayden Maynard was taken at pick 30 in the 2014 draft, and at the time of writing has played 33 consecutive games at senior level. He produces more heart attacks in Collingwood supporters than they would like thanks to his glaring clangers, but experience should reduce those, and he’s on track.

    Matthew Goodyear was taken at pick 48 and played two games before being jettisoned.

    More recycling was taking place, and the Pies brought in Jack Crisp as part of the Beams deal with Brisbane, Levi Greenwood from North, and Travis Varcoe from Geelong as part of letting Heritier Lumumba go to Melbourne.

    Crisp and Greenwood were basically the same player, even down to their preferred kicking foot – pressuring, run-with type midfielders with below average skills. This was a killer in list management strategy, given that a lack of class was already a glaring hole in the squad.

    Crisp at least had youth on his side, and was entitled to develop. Greenwood was coming off a career peak that was likely to be an outlier and has turned out that way, and the Pies were buying at the highest possible point.

    Varcoe addressed the lack of rebounding skill the Pies had, but he, like Greenwood, had a troubled injury history, and both have brought those problems with them. Varcoe was never a high possession winner or huge influencer, and so it has proven at Collingwood despite playing some nice footy early, averaging less than 16 touches a game.

    Year 5 – 2016
    Adam Treloar was the story for Collingwood heading into 2016, the biggest name recruit in Buckley’s time at the helm, and a player who was supposed to propel the Pies back up the ladder. It hasn’t happened.

    Treloar can be one of the most explosive players in the AFL, and every year we see him burst out of stoppages, run and bounce before ramming home goals from outside fifty. But he can be both panicked and lazy by foot, which his side simply can’t afford given how often he gets the ball.

    Brayden Sier was taken at pick 32 in the 2015 draft, but is yet to be seen. Tom Phillips was pick 58 and looks a win at this stage given he has established himself already as a hard runner with good skills. Rupert Wills and Ben Crocker were other late picks that have had some exposure at senior level. Wills won’t make it. Crocker might.

    Jeremy Howe came to the club along with Treloar, and has been a clear winner in his half-back position as one of Collingwood’s most consistent players since his arrival.

    James Aish also came in, from Brisbane, amid much publicity. His hasn’t justified his original selection as a top 10 pick at the Lions, and is a soft outside player who doesn’t get much of the ball. The Pies gave up two mid-second round picks for him, and have lost out on the deal.

    Adam Treloar Collingwood Magpies AFL 2016

    2017 – Year 6
    It’s obviously too early to assess the draftees in their first year on the list, but the story of the most recent off-season was Collingwood once again going down the track of recruiting tried players from other clubs.

    Chris Mayne was signed on a big four-year deal, and in my Collingwood season preview I wrote that he “will go down as one of the worst four-year signings in the history of football, if not the history of sport”. I stand by every word.

    Daniel Wells played about 40 per cent of matches in his last three years at North, yet was signed to a three-year deal despite being 32 at the start of this season. He’s played, yep, 40 per cent of the games so far in 2017, and that percentage isn’t going to be any higher by Round 23.

    Lynden Dunn came across from Melbourne, with an abject sense of timing as far as his career is concerned. He’s a jobber, as far as key position defenders go. Will Hoskin-Elliott has been the success story, playing career-best football. At the least, the Pies were due to get an injury-riddled crock on the park consistently. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    Recycling rejects has been a trademark of Buckley’s time as senior coach of Collingwood, and frankly the list management has been abhorrent.

    Across 2013-14, seven players were brought in from other clubs, for six clear failures. That sort of strike rate kills coaches, given it means they are actively bringing in list cloggers.

    In terms of the draft in those years, we’re looking at one rock solid win in that period, from five top 20 picks and ten selections used overall. There should be a host of players entering the prime of their careers and shaping games in their fourth and fifth seasons, but instead there is only Brodie Grundy.

    They are the two years that have crippled Nathan Buckley.

    The decision-making to bring in injury-riddled players from other clubs has been another coach-killer. Buckley must wear the blame for those decisions.

    When you draft kids that end up having injury problems, that can be lived with. You hope the rewards come as their bodies mature. When you actively bring in players that have a long history of missing games, while you have some injury-prone kids on your list, then you’re just asking for trouble. You don’t get to cry poor when the inevitable happens.

    In terms of gameday coaching, Buckley’s teams have possessed the ball more the further down the ladder they have fallen. Given how unreliable by foot so many of their players are, this is a recipe for disaster. They are simply providing more chances to turn the ball over without gaining any ground in the meantime.

    Taylor Adams, despite his dodgy disposal, has been asked to play a more outside game in recent weeks, all of them losses. He’s a clearance and contested ball winner by trade. That’s bad coaching.

    Indirect ball movement and over-possession can be linked to having barely one AFL-standard key forward to call on. Even then, Darcy Moore is being asked to shoulder too much too soon in his career, and anyway, he is more Jack Watts than Jesse Hogan.

    Again, list management.

    The fall of Collingwood, when it seemed on the verge of a dynasty, is almost complete. It has been orchestrated from within, and looking back, has been so calculated that it’s as if a double agent from Carlton, Richmond or Essendon has been pulling the strings.

    Hawthorn won three premierships in a row thanks to a gameplan geared toward pristine kicking skills. At the same time, Collingwood were bringing in both draftees and recruits whom Alastair Clarkson wouldn’t let in the door.

    Collingwood’s list failure has been systemic, and Nathan Buckley will pay the price.

    Cameron Rose
    Cameron Rose

    Cameron Rose is a born and bred Melbournian, raised on a regime of AFL, cricket and horse racing. He likes people who agree with him but loves those that don't, for there's nothing better than a roaring debate. He tweets from @camtherose.

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    The Crowd Says (168)

    • July 11th 2017 @ 5:35am
      Dinga said | July 11th 2017 @ 5:35am | ! Report

      Thought I was reading a Buckland article for a minute it went for that long.

      I would’ve thought a recruitment clean out to be just as important as clearing the coach. With all their resources, facilities and access to development coaches if the kids they draft can’t make it, they never were.

      • July 11th 2017 @ 5:50am
        Kane said | July 11th 2017 @ 5:50am | ! Report

        I don’t reckon it’s so much the kid’s they drafted, i reckon it’s more the arrogant attitude of McGuire and Buckley that has hindered the development of these kid’s. Looking from the outside since he took over as coach it seems it’s his way and his way only, which Ben Hart has alluded to recently. They have the best facilities in the land but yet can’t develop these kid’s because they don’t have the right coaches. Clarkson and the Hawks program would have no problem developing 75% of these kid’s.

        • July 11th 2017 @ 7:18am
          Reservoir Animal said | July 11th 2017 @ 7:18am | ! Report

          But Collingwood would never have appointed an untried Clarkson as coach, it goes against their “let’s live off our inheritance” policy.

          McGuire (and plenty of others at Collingwood) like to tell us that their club has won 15 flags and has a rich history, but the reality is that he’s got nothing to do with much of that history and needs to build his own success if he wants to be remembered for anything other than off-field stuff.

          • Columnist

            July 11th 2017 @ 7:57am
            Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 7:57am | ! Report

            It’s so hard to know from the outside about the attitudes of internal coaching staff, but we can only go off what we see on the field.

            But I agree, the clean out can’t just involved Buckley, there has to be a broom put through the place. This can’t just be all on one man.

            • July 11th 2017 @ 8:09am
              Reservoir Animal said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:09am | ! Report

              Just think about it Cameron. I assume you have a job that you go to every day and that you have people above you telling you what to do. Now would you want to work for those people if you knew that they could basically commit murder and still be your boss tomorrow?

              Because that is basically what any future Collingwood coach will have to deal with if Eddie doesn’t resign.

              • Columnist

                July 11th 2017 @ 8:16am
                Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:16am | ! Report

                Tony Soprano to be the next Collingwood president?

              • July 11th 2017 @ 8:30am
                Reservoir Animal said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:30am | ! Report

                The modern-day John Wren.

        • July 11th 2017 @ 9:52am
          Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:52am | ! Report

          Kane that’s a response written by someone who doesn’t watch our games closely and simply is wrong. Stating that the arrogant nature of Eddie McGuire hinders development of a young player is quite a ridiculous comment that only highlights your ignorance. Eddie isn’t in the football program teaching the kids, he is out running the club and attracting sponsors. All the players are throwing their support behind Buckley, they love him so please don’t make a fool of yourself with silly comments.

          • July 11th 2017 @ 12:06pm
            Reservoir Animal said | July 11th 2017 @ 12:06pm | ! Report

            “All the players are throwing their support behind Buckley”

            The way the players have played for most of this year would indicate otherwise.

            • July 12th 2017 @ 8:42pm
              Kavvy said | July 12th 2017 @ 8:42pm | ! Report

              That’s wildly wrong Resrvoir Animal, the effort is clearly there, meaning they are playing for him, they just aren’t that great (foot skills being the number 1,2 and 3 issue)

          • July 11th 2017 @ 12:50pm
            Kane said | July 11th 2017 @ 12:50pm | ! Report

            If you don’t think the arrogant nature of McGuire doesn’t rub off on the young kids then u’ve got ur head in the sand. U’ve just got to listen to them talk to the media to see how good they think they are. Like they say “the fish rots at the head”. I hope Eddie re appoints Buckley for another few years just to show Collingwood supporters just how backwards the on-field stuff is going. 95% of Collingwood supporters want both of them gone.

            • July 11th 2017 @ 3:22pm
              Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 3:22pm | ! Report

              Kane, nothing wrong with aiming for finals each year….I’d prefer our players saying that each year then “our aim is just to not get beaten by very much” or “ïf we can get one more win than last year we are happy”…surely every player each year states they want to play finals? if that’s arrogance then yes we are arrogant.

              • July 11th 2017 @ 5:52pm
                Mark said | July 11th 2017 @ 5:52pm | ! Report

                And yet you are nowhere near finals and going backward every single year.

              • July 11th 2017 @ 9:09pm
                Kane said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:09pm | ! Report

                Are u fair dinkum Peter? Has nothing to do with player’s saying they’re aiming for finals. Have a listen to the dribble that Treloar or Adams say on a weekly basis and u’ll know exactly what I’m talking about. I’d prefer my club’s player’s be realistic about where they’re at so they can build towards playing in finals than be in La La land and tell their supporters what they want to hear.

    • July 11th 2017 @ 5:55am
      Dan in Devon said | July 11th 2017 @ 5:55am | ! Report

      Not just list management but gameplan too – the pies press too high and too hard and are unable to defend when the ball is turned over. This was apparent to me a few years ago when i watched them (on tv) play Melbourne – who were a lowly team at the time – and saw them score a quick succession of goals through unmanned players in the forward line. Time and time again the pies concede easy goal in quick succession via players running loose in the forward 50. Buckley has never been able to resolve this. He could for instance have adopted the soccer position of a defensive midfielder or played the old school ruckman behind the play but instead has invested in an attacking midfield which is all too often caught out of position or simply guilty of poor ball skills. Buckley must either go or there must be a radical shake up of the coaching set up, including a new defence coach and a new defensive strategy around which the game plan should be fashioned.

      • Columnist

        July 11th 2017 @ 8:00am
        Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:00am | ! Report

        Yeah, I only touched briefly on the gameplan. This was already 2100 words, and I just wanted to focus on who had been brought into the club. I’m sure there’s enough material to do a five day, 10,000 word special on how it has all gone wrong at the Pies!

        The point you make there is the key one, mids caught out of position due to poor skills.

        • July 11th 2017 @ 9:44am
          Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:44am | ! Report

          I think your article is really well researched and written and I am one of the few who thinks they should re-sign Buckley for another three years. I think the issue here is you could paint a similar picture on probably 15 other clubs in the competition. List management is always hit and miss and there’s many clubs who would look as bad. I agree with you though that the biggest blows were the two top tens in Scharenberg and Freeman. Freeman still yet to play an AFL game at St Kilda. Aish still has real potential too. The big recycle misses people quote once again, nearly every club has those. Jesse White, Karnezis, Quentin Lynch…..apart from Hawthorn who got it so right with Gunston and Bruest you could run the same article on any number of clubs with fails. Geelong messed up with the Mitch Clark deal and beat the Pies to that one too. Richmond have also had a shocking run with trades and recycles past ten years but they stuck with Hardwick and are now showing the natural improvement with age and experience that the Pies will have coming. The recycles were taken as they largely cost nothing but a place on the list and when you hit beyond pick 50 in the draft those good kids are hard to find. White, Karnezis and Lynch were all meant to be key forward/back up rucks like a Leigh Brown but they cost nothing.

          • Columnist

            July 11th 2017 @ 9:57am
            Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:57am | ! Report

            Good points Peter.

            The difference between Collingwood and Richmond for instance, is where those clubs were coming from.

            The Tigers finished second last in 2009-10, and thus were trying to rebuild while getting in some hardened bodies to keep them more competitive. Richmond was rebuilding through the compromised drafts too.

            The Pies were coming from a position of strength – prelims in 07 and 09, a semi-final in 08, and grand finals in 2010-11. These experienced players were to help them stay up there, and have thus hurt more. I just think there has been way too many list cloggers that have come through, in addition to the drafted talent not being there either.

            • July 11th 2017 @ 10:32am
              Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:32am | ! Report

              What I would really like to see is a similar side by side analysis of a team now on the rise in St Kilda. Round 19 2009 they sat undefeated and about to play three grannies in two years. But for an errant bounce avoiding Milne people would be claiming what happened to their dynasty? How did they go from undefeated world beaters to a downhill slide? 2009 2nd, 2010 2nd, 2011 6th, 2012 9th, 2013 16th, 2014 last, 2015 14th, 2016 9th and back on the rise this year. Side by side against the Pies it would seem both teams have followed a similar trajectory downwards with the Pies being a year or two behind due to having a real crack at 2011 and 2012 (prelim final). Geelong, Hawthorn and Sydney have been able to stay up around the top for some time but it is no given when you make it up there and St Kilda illustrate that as much as Collingwood.

              • July 11th 2017 @ 10:41am
                Reservoir Animal said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:41am | ! Report

                St Kilda had coaching changes in that time- without those changes they mightn’t be on the way back up now.

              • Columnist

                July 11th 2017 @ 10:45am
                Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:45am | ! Report

                I don’t have the information at hand Peter, but I suspect St Kilda had one of the older lists, while Collingwood’s was 10th/11th oldest, so that’s one difference.

                I think the addition of the expansion clubs was a free kick for those clubs already up the top, as Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney proved. On that basis, Collingwood threw it away, through a variety of factors, with list management and turnover being a key one.

              • September 6th 2017 @ 10:42pm
                Jason said | September 6th 2017 @ 10:42pm | ! Report

                Spot on, as is your original article and several previous comments. There are 4 dimensions at play:
                1. The dreadful track record of ‘ins’
                2. Even worse is the Buckley inspired record of ‘outs’ – a young star studded list was systematically dismantled
                3. The game plan has gone from non-existent for Buckley’s first few years (not apparent anyway) to more defined but mismatched to the capability and make up of the list
                4. Game day coaching – I don’t back myself as having much clue on game day moves as I get absorbed watching the performance of the team and flow of the game, but sometimes things are glaringly obvious and when I watch the replay, sure enough the expert commentators are saying what I was thinking – and I wonder why Bucks either doesn’t make the obvious change or waits till the game is list to do so. Does he make a lot of good moves? Sure! But his win-loss is drifting to below 50% and statistical evidence suggests he is not in the top 8 coaches… how can the team accept mediocrity?

                The 2 year deal Bucks now has does not make sense – we are at least 3 years away from being successful (finals) even if a lot goes right. Deal should have been 4 years or nothing. 2 says “were not sure”.

              • July 12th 2017 @ 7:14pm
                JD said | July 12th 2017 @ 7:14pm | ! Report

                Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn.
                Every first year Business or Commerce student in the land can spot the connection between culture and sustained success. The AFL is no different.

            • July 11th 2017 @ 10:43am
              Nathan Hook said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:43am | ! Report

              I agree Buckley should be re-signed.

              Even the almighty Alistair Clarkson appears to have gone down the same path taking a injury prone O’Meara, and the wonderful all conquering Vickery. After premiership success.

              All that shows, is that any club can make these errors and quite often do.

              Does that mean Cam that you will be writing similar articles about Alistair Clarkson in the next few years? Who knows.

              • Columnist

                July 11th 2017 @ 10:47am
                Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:47am | ! Report

                I might be going out on a limb here Nathan, but Clarkson has a few more premiership credentials in the bank than Buckley. About four.

                But, that doesn’t mean that the recruitment of JOM and Vickery wasn’t a misstep. Time will tell.

            • July 11th 2017 @ 2:52pm
              gus said | July 11th 2017 @ 2:52pm | ! Report

              Very good point Cam. Many forget about comprimised draft with 2 new Teams comming into the AFL. Boy , if a club was in a comprimised situation because of that , (bad management), then they got stung.

          • July 11th 2017 @ 10:33am
            aw said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:33am | ! Report

            As a lions fan, I knew James Aish was never going to make it and was really happy to see him traded aggressively for another dip at the draft.
            He was told by managers, media, anyone from Victoria that he was too good for the club that drafted him, and he walked into the club believing it. As such he wasted 2 years of invaluable personal development opportunity thinking he was awesome.

            Watching him play he had class and time with the ball, but didn’t buy in to the game plan or get around his team mates (never got involved in high fives or goal celebrations unless he scored).
            As such with each successive game you saw him go backwards. Was a shame his manager toasted his career.

            • Columnist

              July 11th 2017 @ 10:48am
              Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:48am | ! Report

              Hard to disagree with much of what you’ve written there.

              When I look at Aish, I don’t see insatiable hunger to succeed. Similar to Ben Lennon at Richmond.

            • July 11th 2017 @ 11:09am
              GJ said | July 11th 2017 @ 11:09am | ! Report

              Yes Aish had talent to burn as junior, even playing in a SANFL premiership with Norwood. When he was drafted to Lions there were a few whispers in Adelaide it would end in tears.

              Many in SA were surprised he went to Collingwood. Mentioned to media at 1 point he wanted to go to Melbourne to avoid the media scrutiny in Adelaide.

              • July 11th 2017 @ 11:25am
                Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 11:25am | ! Report

                I wouldn’t be writing Aish off just yet, the kid is just 21 and has something most of our running players doesn’t in that he can take a mark. They are training him in the two’s to be an inside and outside mid and he has the courage to make it. Brisbane used pick 7 on Aish, the Pies only pick 26, give him some time as he can still be a good get for the Pies for a pick 26.

              • Roar Guru

                July 11th 2017 @ 12:54pm
                Pumping Dougie said | July 11th 2017 @ 12:54pm | ! Report

                Loving your passion Peter the Scribe

              • July 11th 2017 @ 1:21pm
                Gecko said | July 11th 2017 @ 1:21pm | ! Report

                He’s not really loving your passion Pete. He just agrees with your campaign because he wants the Pies to suffer under a few more years of Bucks.

                Btw, you seem to love Bucks and Eddie more than you love the club.

      • Roar Guru

        July 11th 2017 @ 9:10am
        JamesH said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:10am | ! Report

        True. Contrast this to the way Bolton sets up Carlton further behind the ball. It not only helps out the kids they are developing in the backline, but when they force a turnover it gives them a chance to utilise the pace of some of the quicker young players they have brought in and gives their forwards a bit of room to work with.

        Ugh, I hate using Carlton as an example of what to do.

        • Columnist

          July 11th 2017 @ 9:58am
          Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:58am | ! Report

          The Blues are annoyingly likeable aren’t they. Their coach has a bit to do with that, but they also give everything. They are an honest club now.

          • Roar Guru

            July 11th 2017 @ 6:55pm
            hairy fat man said | July 11th 2017 @ 6:55pm | ! Report

            The Blues are annoyingly likeable aren’t they


    • July 11th 2017 @ 7:40am
      Sausages said | July 11th 2017 @ 7:40am | ! Report

      It’s interesting to note that Collingwood FC are undergoing a full internal review, one would assume football operations such as list management and coaching will be analysed closely. Like most coaches, Buckley probably doesn’t have that much say in terms of who is drafted in through the door…surely he can’t survive and a scapegoat be made of the list manager/recruitment team! I can just see McGuire trying to spin it that way!!! God I hope he does anyway…it’s clear Bucks is done as a coach, I look forward to him offering sound analysis in the media again. The one positive, at least the Pies have the chance to manage his exit well, very important with a favourite son, something the Bombers couldn’t do with Hird…

      • Columnist

        July 11th 2017 @ 8:04am
        Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:04am | ! Report

        I think they all should go. A fresh start is required at the club. And Buckley has to wear the blame for the recycled players.

        Buckley’s attitude would appear to be very different to the recalcitrant Hird, so I think his exit will be done well.

        As you say, how good is it for the rest of us that Buckley will be in the media next year. Hopefully that means someone like Shaw or Frawley are gone for good.

      • July 11th 2017 @ 10:38am
        Nineteen said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:38am | ! Report

        “Like most coaches, Buckley probably doesn’t have that much say in terms of who is drafted in through the door”

        At Carlton Bolton requests a particular type of player and then SOS presents four minutes of ‘vision’ That’s not enough for Bolts to make a decision so it gets ratified by a committee. (He didn’t say who was on the committee)

        Bolts did tell the audience he totally controls who stays on the list. “I see them for eight hours a day and no one knows them better than I do.”

        Bolts told this to a closed group of members of which my mate was present.

        I can only presume that most clubs have a similar way of going about things.

        • July 12th 2017 @ 7:18pm
          JD said | July 12th 2017 @ 7:18pm | ! Report

          That’s really interesting. I actually didn’t know that was how it worked.

    • July 11th 2017 @ 7:40am
      Oudy said | July 11th 2017 @ 7:40am | ! Report

      In the same way that Freddy Flintoff’s 2005 Ashes series single-handedly delivered (and continues to deliver) a multitude of unwarranted baggy greens to middling all-rounders, so has Leigh Brown’s 2010 successful forward/ruck role impacted Collingwood’s view of their forward line throughout this time period. Q Lynch and White both recycled lumps who were far less a sum of their parts, and now we see an even more one dimensional import (M Cox) in the role as second forward/ruck. There is suddenly some key position depth down back, so why Ben Reid isn’t being genuinely trialled as a forward to take some heat off poor Darcy Moore is beyond me.

      • Columnist

        July 11th 2017 @ 8:53am
        Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:53am | ! Report

        Great point, and I would love to have to have gone into the exits, but this was about focussing on who has come through the doors to get Buckley into this position.

        Love the Flintoff / Brown comparison. Reid played forward on the weekend, and looked dangerous enough. He’s basically the inverse Tom McDonald though, given his field kicking is beautiful and set shots are unreliable.

        • July 11th 2017 @ 10:01am
          Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:01am | ! Report

          Cameron, the exits analysis would highlight that Buckley never dismantled a premiership team and have not cost the club beyond Shaw and Beams. (You never mentioned that Beams was his choice and the club tried everything to keep him including offering weekly flights home). Wellingham even asked to go and ultimately got us Grundy with the West Coast pick. Daisy Thomas, Kennedy, Seedsman, Dawes, Freeman, Witts….zero cost to the club with their departure. Jolly, Didak were gone and no other club bid for them. An exit analysis would show that people can’t say Buckley dismantled a premiership team as he didn’t. Shaw was the only bad call, everything else was natural attrition. Look at St Kilda at round 19, 2009….undefeated and headed to three grand finals in two years. What happened at the Saints since? No one screams they dismantled a premiership team because of one wonky bounce that avoided Milne in the goal square.

          • Columnist

            July 11th 2017 @ 10:05am
            Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:05am | ! Report

            Yeah, that’s all reasonable Peter. I agree with your assessment, given what has happened since. It would still make for interesting reading, without saying Collingwood was at fault.

          • July 12th 2017 @ 11:27pm
            Tricky said | July 12th 2017 @ 11:27pm | ! Report

            “Look at St Kilda at round 19, 2009….undefeated and headed to three grand finals in two years. What happened at the Saints since? No one screams they dismantled a premiership team”

            You need to do some more research mate, St kilda were for memory the oldest or 2nd oldest and we were 10th or 11th oldest – pretty young. That’s why no one was screaming about dismantling a possible flag team; they’d been up and about from 04-05

      • Roar Guru

        July 11th 2017 @ 1:09pm
        Pumping Dougie said | July 11th 2017 @ 1:09pm | ! Report

        Great comment Oudy

    • July 11th 2017 @ 8:17am
      Bert said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:17am | ! Report

      Dear Eddie,

      as a member of our club for over 4 decades, I’ve seen a lot of trials and tribulations with our club. However, in all my time supporting the Pies I have never before seen, heard or witnessed such mindless and ill informed vitriol directed at one of the greatest servants of our club, as has been thrown at our coach Nathan Buckley.

      Obviously our football team has failed to deliver on our expectations and it is incumbent on you, as our President, to ascertain the reasons for our team’s poor performances. However, acknowledging the sub par on-field performances of our team, does not represent evidence that the coach must go. The media might see it that way, they might report it that way, and they might join in the chorus calling for Bucks’ head. However, as our President, it is your task to ignore the external noise and to establish the facts. We all know the win/loss record, but what is not known (to those external to the inner sanctum of our club) are the reasons for our poor win/loss record.

      If, at the end of the day, you are confident that Bucks’ coaching methods/style is the main reason for our poor form on the field, then without doubt, he cannot be granted a contract extension.

      However, if, the instability in the football department, particularly the revolving Director of Football position, has been a major factor, then this needs to be addressed. As well, our whole recruiting and list management department needs to be put under the microscope.

      As a mere supporter, but long time Legends Member, I have been dismayed by the wasted use of high prized draft picks on players like Scharenberg, Freeman and Aish. Use of these picks should have set us up for a decade, much like the drafting of Pendles and Daisy did back in 2006. Furthermore, the recruitment of Mayne and Wells, on big salaries for multiple years, seemed crazy at the time, and seem disastrous now.

      Obviously, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and there will always be good and bad luck associated with recruiting decisions, but as a supporter, I have been rather disappointed for the past 5-6 years with the recruiting undertaken by our club.

      Clearly, some or all of these matters are being analysed by Peter Murphy, but as a non football person, I doubt he has the background to equip himself properly with these matters.

      Basically, I think you, as our President, should investigate these matters yourself, with or without the assistance of other well regarded (and hopefully external) football people. Part of your investigation should involve private and confidential discussions with senior players at our club. Conducted properly, I am sure that players like Pendles, Adams, Howe and others would quickly alert you to problems with the coach, if indeed he is the source of our problems.

      Finally, you will have guessed by now that I am a firm supporter of Bucks as our coach. I think he is a masterful coach and brilliant communicator and developer of young talent. He is also held in enormous esteem by those who know him. However, if the evidence presents itself that our team’s problems are due to Bucks’ coaching, then we need to part with Nathan and proceed to arrange a handover to someone else.

      However, if our poor performances are largely due to poor recruiting, list management, instability in our Football Department, or any other factor, then it would be a crime to blame these on our coach. It may be that numerous other heads need to roll at our club,

      The buck stops with Buckley after 6 years of being ordinary and getting worse.

      But also the recruiting department must go as well.

      Clearly, I am hoping the latter course of action is taken as a matter of urgency, but if it is the former, then as long as the decision is based on hard evidence, then I, and most members and fans, will support your decision.

      The decision is yours Ed. As our President, I trust you will exercise it wisely.

      “But over the past six weeks according to Champion Data, the Pies have dropped from sixth to 16th for contested ball differential, second to 14th for midfield clearances and second to 18th for scores from clearances.”

      • July 11th 2017 @ 8:46am
        Birdman said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:46am | ! Report

        hear hear, Bert.

        Eddie should quell all this unwarranted media chatter with a five year extension. After all, as the most successful time in history, nothing (not even cold hard facts) should deter the club from mapping its own destiny.

      • July 11th 2017 @ 10:09am
        Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:09am | ! Report

        Bert, I believe you and I are the only two supporters wanting Bucks to be re-signed for three years. Alas, I fear it won;t happen now but the one point I have been making for weeks now is if they do let Bucks go the only man to replace him must be Brad Scott. Have a read of Side by Side by Peter Ryan, the inside story of Collingwood in the year 2009. Scott was held in high regard by both players and administrators. It hurt our 2009 campaign big time when he was signed by North and had to leave. I still hold forlorn hope that Bucks is re-signed and the list management team take the hit but if not, if he does go, Scott is our man to take us forward. Bert, keep your spirits up. There’s plenty of Nuff nuffs in here taking cheap pot shots but you and I know there is real talent already on our list. With a good run at it with injuries next year and the experience in this young side (who have the same average age as Carlton -23 years) the Pies have every shot at top 4 in 2018.

        • Roar Guru

          July 11th 2017 @ 10:24am
          Col from Brissie said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:24am | ! Report

          “Plenty of Nuff nuffs in here taking cheap pot shots” Is this the same Peter that was happy to take pot shots at Carlton and Brisbane yesterday. Hey Pete if you can’t take it don’t give it.

          • July 11th 2017 @ 10:43am
            Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:43am | ! Report

            Col, go your hardest at the Pies…all I’m doing is addressing inaccuracies and the simplistic view of some threads in here claiming that Buckley dismantled a premiership team as the facts are he didn’t. I think Cameron’s article is really well researched and written and is assessment of the “list cloggers” very good. My point is you have to have what 42 on your senior list? They can’t all be kids so certain recycled players will come and go, some rare hits but mostly misses for all clubs. I also agree with a thread in here that the Pies got obsessed with finding another Leigh Brown hence Karnezis, Jesse White, Quentin Lynch. The difference between the Pies and the Saints is we were still right in the hunt in 2011 and a prelim final under Bucks in 2012 so we tried to stay in the window. The mistake we made I believe is not announcing that after the 2013 Port Adelaide loss in the elimination final we needed to reset/rebuild whatever you want to call it. Pert then made some outrageous public announcements that didn’t help. As I have said to Cat in here, which club will get the next flag out of St Kilda, Collingwood and Geelong, all powerhouses in 2010-2011? I believe St Kilda is best placed as I don’t think the Cats can get beyond a prelim final this year and are heavily reliant on Dangerwood. The Pies are a year or two behind the Saints in their rebuild.

            • Roar Guru

              July 11th 2017 @ 10:58am
              Col from Brissie said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:58am | ! Report

              Peter, actually I really don’t care about the Pies or many other teams for that matter so I don’t make comments on them as you happily did about Carlton yesterday. I will gladly debate you about Carlton as I feel I know enough about the team I have followed for many years.

              I don’t know enough about Collingwood to feel comfortable coming on this forum and take pot shots at them unlike you who must feel he knows more about Carlton than Carlton supporters.

              If you want to know what I think about Buckley remaining coach at Collingwood my answer is I don’t care but from reading recent articles it seems there are a lot of Collingwood supporters wanting a change and not only in the coaching area.

              We Carlton supporters lived through that in the disastrous Malthouse years. Luckily for us the club is now heading in a better direction and although success might be a few years away I have something to cheer about and look forward to. If you can say that then I am happy for you.

              • July 11th 2017 @ 11:39am
                Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 11:39am | ! Report

                Col, all reasonable points. My main point I made with you is that you seemed to be celebrating what is currently 16th place and also that having a young list doesn’t guarantee success, neither does rising star noms. There’s already plenty of rising star noms who have struggled onwards. I just bite back when Carlton supporters prematurely gloating about our mismanagement when you still sit 16th and have had 20 years of bad decision making. Believe it or not, I’m actually one of the few Pies supporters who doesn’t hate your club. I actually look forward to the September when we meet each other in the finals again. Who gets their first remains to be seen.

              • Roar Guru

                July 11th 2017 @ 11:55am
                Col from Brissie said | July 11th 2017 @ 11:55am | ! Report

                Peter you somehow miss the point about what Carlton supporters are celebrating. It is definitely not about sitting in 16th place believe me. What we are celebrating is the fact that after the Malthouse disaster the club finally took the action that was required which was to get a competent coach and to commence a rebuild that we hope will bring sustained success.

                We know and accept that it will take a few more years but if you can’t acknowledge what most in the Football world are saying and that is that Bolton is a very good coach and the majority of the young talent brought in in the last 2 years look likely to anchor that success then that’s your prerogative.

                Why you feel the need to come on Carlton articles and make derogative comments about the coach and the players just because there is some heat on your club at the moment boggles me.

              • July 12th 2017 @ 11:37pm
                Tricky said | July 12th 2017 @ 11:37pm | ! Report

                “If you want to know what I think about Buckley remaining coach at Collingwood my answer is I don’t care”

                Yes you do, you want bucks to stay in fact all non Collingwood supporters want him to stay

        • July 11th 2017 @ 10:29am
          Birdman said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:29am | ! Report

          In the words of the great Billy Joel ” don’t go changing…”

      • July 11th 2017 @ 10:16am
        Tom M said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:16am | ! Report

        As a Collingwood supporter i am sick of this blind loyalty to Buckley as coach. He has had 6 years to shape the list and he has had a hand in recruiting all the busts from other clubs. He forced great players out the door, all because they didn’t live and breath AFL football the same way he did as a player. He also has had his favourites over the years too. He has us playing this ridiculous game plan of the high press which doesn’t work and this season I cant tell you what we are trying to do when we win possession. How anyone can view Dunn as a better player than Ben Reid is an idiot, he has 20 disposals and was in our best 5 players and then couldn’t hold his spot, what a joke.

      • July 11th 2017 @ 10:45am
        Tom M said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:45am | ! Report

        As a Collingwood fan, the blind loyalty of some members towards Buckley sickens me. He has had 6 years to shape the list how he wants towards the game plan he wants. It has been a failure, his gameplan stinks and while the rest of the competition is recruiting and developing players with superior ball skills, we seem to be doing the opposite. The lack of attention to developing key position talent has hurt the club and hurt even more when the coach fails to select his best key position player because he was out of form, when the previous week he was close to our best.

        • Columnist

          July 11th 2017 @ 10:51am
          Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 10:51am | ! Report

          Can certainly feel the passion flowing there Tom, and I reckon you’ve provided a neat summary.

          The recruitment of Mayne and also Wells, combined with selection decisions like Reid, speak to an uncertainty and desperation that must be enveloping the club.

      • July 11th 2017 @ 12:54pm
        Peter the Scribe said | July 11th 2017 @ 12:54pm | ! Report

        Bucks is safe Bert until the end of the season. he just confirmed at 12:30 today Pert addressed him and the players today and announced no decision will be made until the end of the season…. let’s see where it goes from here….

      • July 11th 2017 @ 12:56pm
        Nineteen said | July 11th 2017 @ 12:56pm | ! Report

        Well written Bert.

        I think Eddie is great at business development for the club but does he have the wherewithal to assess the state of your teams onfield performance?

        Newly pointed CEO at Hawthorn, Tracey Gaudry made note in her acceptance speech that she would leave the onfield stuff to Clarko and she would look at growing the business and ‘operations’. As an administrator she doesn’t proclaim to know as much about footy as Clarko and I’m sure Eddie doesn’t know as much about footy as Bucks.

        So should it be Bucks offering the solutions, Eddie or some external ‘expert’?

      • July 11th 2017 @ 1:03pm
        Powerboy said | July 11th 2017 @ 1:03pm | ! Report

        What’s that you say, Eddie? Not your fault? O.K., take another twenty years as prez………..

    • July 11th 2017 @ 8:23am
      Andrew said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:23am | ! Report

      Just out of curiosity cam, where do you see Collingwood in 12 mths with respect to ladder position?

      • Columnist

        July 11th 2017 @ 8:49am
        Cameron Rose said | July 11th 2017 @ 8:49am | ! Report

        No idea! Could anyone answer that without knowing what’s going to happen between now and lodging final lists for 2018?

        • July 11th 2017 @ 9:18am
          Birdman said | July 11th 2017 @ 9:18am | ! Report

          that list isn’t going to fix itself overnight but a better coach will get better output but top 8 looks at least 2 years away IMHO

      • July 11th 2017 @ 7:10pm
        Col in paradise said | July 11th 2017 @ 7:10pm | ! Report

        I think at best 14th – more like 15th – as prob 3 teams worse then the pies – and I am struggling to think who they are – mmmm

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