A model for promotion and relegation in the A-League

finally somebody that talks sence, sick of romanticists treating pro/rel like its a magic cure for everything football related, there is also one other issue with full pyramid pro/rel is the ultra nationalist ethnic clubs getting into the pro tiers and sponsors leaving in droves because of those fans behavior, also for pro/rel but at least 15-20 years off imo

Football may have a.massive participation rate but the A league can not tap into that because it is too capital city centric and concentrated in too few cities .it's only a ten team comp in a handful of cities ..the A league is too exclusive not inclusive .it needs to grow to 16 teams to be inclusive.

Take a step back everybody, and take a deep breath. If it sounds too good to be true, etc. Consider the following: The Championship will be governed by a board of directors (6), plus an independent chairman (their description, not mine). At least 3 of these directors are to be male, and three female. Why? Is ability not important? A minimum of 12 clubs, although as many as 16, consisting of both male and female teams. The winning team (presumably the male team) to be granted a place in the ACL! Surely they are not serious? Each club to have an annual budget of $2.5 million, including an annual licence fee of $150,000. So anywhere between $30 and $40 million per annum overall. Easy! My kids always thought it grew on trees! Each club to have a boutique stadium with a minimum capacity of 3,000. A salary cap of $1 million will apply to each club, covering both male and female teams. Maximum squad size is 20, and would one really want less? That works out at an average wage of $25,000 per player! Some will receive more, resulting in some receiving less. And yes, there will be some youngsters who will perhaps be happy with less, but my goodness, we would be walking a thin line. An application fee of $10,000 is payable in order to receive bid documents, with $8,000 refundable to clubs that are not successful. Not too bad I suppose, and with any luck that would deter the "tyre kickers" from applying. All of this is to be achieved in a little less than 24 months. I doubt the timetable is realistic. How many clubs will be able to arrange to have the commencing capital and revenue streams in place in such a short time? In addition to the working capital for day to day operations, most successful applicants will need to fund a "boutique stadium" with a minimum capacity of 3,000. Then we have the question of successful clubs building their squads, and I bet this is a cost that has not been factored into the initial $2.5 million annual budget. Admittedly no transfer fees, but there are costs involved in recruiting and settling new players. Now, I am a half glass full individual. Always look to how things can be achieved, both on the sporting field, and in business. Through experience, I have discovered that the well thought out and patient approach is far more successful than the "bull at gate" approach. Sorry, but this proposal smacks of the latter. Great on hyperbole, but somewhat lacking in substance and detail.

My article and subsequent comments on the matter demonstrate I am firmly in favor of the Wolves being given the opportunity of top flight via promotion over creating a Southern Sydney team out of nowhere so there is no need to call me stupid. I used the example of the Wolves and South Expansion not so much because of the proposed catchment area of the two teams. I use it as an example of existing NPL team vs. creating a franchise out of nowhere. If we are to begin promoting teams to the A-League from a bunch of that already exist, we shouldn't also be creating new teams with no history when a team already exists in that area.

There is absolutely no evidence that shows crowds/TV ratings in ALeague reduce when Cricket & BBL plays & increases after Cricket/BBL ends. You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts. If you can't get behind an ALeague team, no problem. I feel the same about BBL, NBL, AFL, NRL, SuperRugby. Different people like different things. Apparently some Aussies like every sport & they follow 23 different clubs around the world. But, I think they're tuggers.

BBL starts later in the year, yes, but the Test matches begin late November and I guarantee more people are interested in the opening ball of the summer than the latest A League round. I can see where supporters of the promotion and relegation system are coming from and living in Wollongong, I could get behind a local side vying for promotion to the A League, but I personally can't see it happening.

@R King Fair enough. I missed out on identifying 1 more match that appeals to Event Watchers. Maybe Syd vs MVFC pulls a few more Syd people. I know it doesn't pull any extras in Melbourne - we get similar crowds at Docklands to watch MV vs NIX. But, maybe there is 1 match for each club that appeals to Event Watchers. Out of 135 H&A matches there won't be many such matches.

Nem, I know you are wrong in this one. Speaking about AUFC matches only, there are those who turn up to REDS vs Victory game but don't bother even going to watch SFC or WSW when they come to town. The Victory game has much more hype to it than even the games against City, hence a better turn out. Members of my own family who are football lovers, sometimes have to chose between watching the Reds V whoever or some other event and unless it's the Victory, then regardless of what's on they make space in their schedule. Now before you go off and condemn them as not being a typical football lovers, they are paid up members of AUFC, family season ticket holders and sponsor, member of and sponsors a local club he played at, still sponsors the junior side he played at 40 years ago. [they also sponsor the Crows, the Power and a local footy side Norwood, told you he wasn't perfect] he Can afford both Fox and Optus so yeah I'd consider him to be a football lover, but he is time poor, so selects the games he goes to. His business partners are much the same. Jokingly i refer to them as 'the event goers' which always starts up a very strong family debate. So I think I'm being realistic, that there would be others like him, maybe more than the likes of you and I really know about.

"there will always be some ‘event goers’ to watch key games, depends on the amount of hype surrounding the match." I think we need to be realistic. Apart from the Sydney & Melbourne Derbies & Finals, I don't think there is a single ALeague match that would appeal to anyone who is an event-watcher. There is nothing to attract anyone. No harm in that. Football around the world is based on people attending because they are attached to the teams involved. It's only in the past 20 years, or so, that "the tourist fan" has been taking a seat in stadiums. And, it seems, this is to the detriment of the atmosphere. The atmosphere Highbury when it was filled with diehard Gunners fans is far superior to the morgue-like sound that we hear at matches at the Emirates STadium

Nem, there will always be some 'event goers' to watch key games, depends on the amount of hype surrounding the match. Nothing wrong with them going, happy to take their money. Given the right set of circumstances, AUFC can gather around 15.000 'football' fans to a regular H & A match while at a grand-final we can draw the 50k+ which is also OK. Again happy to take their money, even though the home team doesn't get it. It would be nice to have as many people go to our matches as the AFL or BBL get, but not fussed that we don't. As long as the football on the park is of a standard that turns me on, I'm happy.

I understand that on Bill & Boz tonight they are going to be spending quite a lot of time discussing the proposed 2nd Division.

What do you mean 'Could Be'? Most of these clubs have had history in running a national competition, how did that work out?

"I like to think I know a little about the market" Thinking you know a little about the market is not the way any sophisticated business assesses potential investment opportunities. That's the way people in pubs analyse issues. No harm in that, but it's ludicrous to think "your little knowledge" is capable of being used to accept - or dismiss - a business opportunity that is forecast to be generating around $40m per annum. For sure, if you provide your financial justification for not proceeding with this business opportunity, then you will be taken more seriously. ALeague & 2nd Division is not played only during summer. The competition starts in October. It plays in Spring, Summer & Autumn. BBL plays during Christmas Holidays. Then it's over for the next 45 weeks. We don't need the BBL audience. Anyone who finds BBL entertaining is not, and never will be, an ALeague fan. The things that BBL offers will never be offered by ALeague & 2nd Division. I do not need BBL fans, or AFL/NRL/water polo/ ballet/ opera fans watching ALeague. I want football fans watching ALeague & The Championship

I like to think I know a little about the market, and with AFL and NRL dominating the market, and cricket a huge drawcard over summer with Tests, ODI and Big Bash, there leaves little room for other sports to grow and expand, eg. the promotion and relegation system so many football fans seem to desire

"Promotion/relegation in Australia will never work, there isn’t enough money and support for football here." Just saying "it will never work" is meaningless. None of us have analysed the market, done the forecasts, crunched the numbers. You haven't even seen the detailed proposal. You haven't spoken to anyone involved. Who cares if you think it will never work? You know nothing about the market, or the potential participants.

Check your facts, Wollongong gets 5 games in 2018. Crowds have hovered around 10,000 for many years now so you can't blame the Dragons for throwing plenty of games to the Gong. Hopefully next year with more games and better timeslots, crowds will increase.

I think people need to understand that at this time the FFA HAS to hose down a 2nd tier. Whether rightly or wrongly they have currently committed to a model which attracts capital via creating new franchises. They would be in a number of discussions actively trying to attract that capital into the A-League. Those stakeholders would disappear very quickly if the FFA were seen in anyway supporting the idea that the model was about to change. As soon as you start entertaining the idea of Rel/Pro new franchises are a non-starter and the emphasis will switch to existing clubs and how to support them in attracting Capital investment. The FFA's stance will not change until they are 100% ready to commit to a new model. ' From a FFA point of view the really interesting question is, do they think they can attract enough capital under the current model for 4-6 new teams over the next 5 years. If the answer is yes then (and I hate to say it) it is likely they will hold firm and stick with the current closed model. If no then its time to switch to a open model and start supporting the clubs to grow with within.

Promotion/relegation in Australia will never work, there isn't enough money and support for football here. It works in the UK due to the larger population, and the fact football is the number one sport, bringing with it massive sponsorship deals, TV rights, etc. In Australia, football is a distant third behind the AFL and NRL, with cricket played alongside the A League season, robbing it of fans and interest. If you take a look at rugby league for example, one level below the NRL you have teams playing in front of a few hundred diehards, hardly making any money with minimal interest from the general public. Given the A League still struggles to attract healthy crowds on a regular basis, how would it work in the second division? If a team were relegated, they would take a huge step backwards financially, due to the lack of interest in a lower tier competition, not football's fault, just to do with Australia's smaller population, there is just too big a gap between elite competition and the lower levels. This would be a great idea if the second division could be financially viable, but given the number of A league clubs that have gone bust, that's a huge ask

The scenario you describe is certainly a valid one. However, one important point. Before relegation is to occur, it is likely 4 Championship teams will be promoted. If we assume that one team faces relegation each year, and this relegation is not automatic, and instead features a playoff system such as the one in my article, that is quite a large "buffer zone" for the 10 existing A-League teams in which to avoid being relegated. It is likely that all promotion and relegation will occur between Championship teams. It certainly puts an onus on A-League owners to keep on top of their game to maintain the status quo, but if one did finish behind three or even four Championship teams, they deserve what they get.

Good point. In this scenario you would have a Championship side that is "in form" against an A-League side that has been struggling all year. If the struggling A-League team still thrashes the in form Championship side, they deserve to stay up. The point of my playoff system is to ensure there is less uncertainty about which 14 teams deserve to be in the A-League. If no Championship team ever makes it once full pro/rel is implemented, so be it the best 14 teams shall remain in the top flight. Due to the nature of football I bet it wouldn't play out that way though.